4CB Tournament #2 Results and Discussion/4CB Tournament #3 Opening

[combo_dude]

I'd like to congratulate combo_dude as the winner of 4CB Tournament #2!
Well, not wishing to blow my own trumpet...but basically everyone was trying to get as much power out of their decks as they could, rather than going for much resilience, so two removal spells shafted the lot of you!

Banned List:
Strip Mine
Ghost Quarter
Wasteland
The Rack
Trinisphere
Channel
Form of the Dragon
Abandon Hope
Addle
Brain Pry
Blackmail
Cabal Therapy
Duress
Mesmeric Fiend
Meddling Mage
Energy Field
Foil
Force of Will
Show and Tell

Decks:

1.   combo_dude    -    3.5CB    -    Mox Pearl,   Mishra's Factory,   Seal of Cleansing,   Swords to Plowshares
2.   Franz Ferdinand    -    Grandmother's Underpants    -    Mox Jet,   Blinkmoth Nexus,   Nezumi Shortfang,   Evil Presence
3.   ZoneSeek    -    The Empire Strikes Back    -    Black Lotus,   Eladamri's Vineyard,   Isochron Scepter,   Lightning Helix
4.   BweeBwee    -    (no name)    -    Black Lotus,   Misguided Rage,   Anurid Scavenger,   Leyline of Singularity
5.   Naphtali    -    Bounce and Bureaucracy    -    Karakas,   Black Lotus,   Grand Arbiter Augustin IV,   Leyline of Singularity
6.   Parallax    -    Jinxed!    -    Mishra's Workshop,   Glacial Chasm,   Jinxed Choker,   Crucible of Worlds
7.   ReAnimator    -    $T4Xz0rz    -    Mishra's Workshop,   Smokestack,   Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai,   Crucible of Worlds
8.   Godder    -    The Starke Reality    -    Karakas,   Dwarven Hold,   Starke of Rath,   Leyline of Singularity
9.   Cross    -    Grim Combo    -    Saprazzan Skerry,   Grim Monolith,   Magma Mine,   Power Artifact
10.   Illisius    -    arrr    -    Karakas,   Aether Vial,   Rishadan Brigand,   Leyline of Singularity
11.   Hi-Val    -    My Two Roommates    -    Black Lotus,   Hypergenesis,   Angel of Despair,   Angel of Despair
12.   Scrappy Kid    -    With my Gods Eye closed    -    Mishra's Workshop,   Smokestack,   Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai,   Crucible of Worlds

Results:

      1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   0   1   2 Total Position
1|   X   6   6   6   6   6   6   2   6   2   2   6   54   (1)
2|   0   X   0   0   3   6   2   6   6   6   6   2   37   (5)
3|   0   6   X   1   3   6   0   6   0   6   2   0   30   (6)
4|   0   6   4   X   0   6   0   0   6   0   6   0   28   (8)
5|   0   3   3   6   X   3   6   3   6   3   4   6   43   (2)
6|   0   0   0   0   3   X   0   0   6   6   2   0   17   (10)
7|   0   2   6   6   0   6   X   6   3   6   2   2   39   (3)
8|   2   0   0   6   3   6   0   X   0   3   6   0   26   (9)
9|   0   0   6   0   0   0   3   6   X   6   6   3   30   (6)
0|   2   0   0   6   3   0   0   3   0   X   2   0   16   (11)
1|   2   0   2   0   1   2   2   0   0   2   X   2   13   (12)
2|   0   2   6   6   0   6   2   6   3   6   2   X   39   (3)

Firstly, there's a problem with the Leyline mirror matches, as I don't know what the ruling is when both players have a Leyline; since some decks need one (and only one, since more than one kills both of them off) in play, how does this work? I've calculated on the basis that only one will be in play, but I don't know if that's the case.

A small tournament usually lets one of the lower-powered decks win, as there's less junk to push through - most of these decks were good choices, but they didn't have any slack in them - which meant that while against similar decks they would both try and power through, against decks like the top two, they just shut down because they couldn't get things to work! I liked the idea behind Hi-Val's deck - the main problem wasn't its lack of speed (though that came up occasionally), but was the fact that if the opponent did nothing, his Angel of Despair would have to target itself! Perhaps Akroma/AoD would be a better combination? Also, kudos to Scrappy Kid and ReAnimator for making (almost) strictly better versions of my deck from last week!

For next week: Same Again!

Rules:

Basic Rules

- Your deck is composed of 4 cards, all of which start in your hand.
- Your deck has no sideboard.
- You don't lose as a result of not being able to draw a card.
- You can see your opponent's hand, so you can always make the best possible play.
- Your random effects always go in your opponent's favor.
- All other rules of Magic remain unchanged, unless otherwise stated.

Tournament Rules

- All matches are played out by the moderator (participants only submit the decks).
- Tournaments are run in round-robin fashion.
- Each matchup consists of 2 games, with each deck going first once.
- Participants earn 3 points if their deck wins a game, 1 point for a draw, and 0 points for a loss; thus, over the course of a match, you can earn 6, 4, 3, 2, 1, or 0 points.

Deck-Building Rules

- You may not submit a deck that can win before the end of your opponent's first turn.
- You may not submit a deck that can force an opponent to discard more than 1 card in one turn.
- You may not submit a deck that can generate infinite (or an arbitrarily large amount of) mana on the first turn.
- Your deck may not include Unglued or Unhinged cards, ante cards, Garfield event cards (such as Splendid Genesis or Proposal), or 1996 World Champion.
- You may not include a card that appears on the 4CB Banned List.

Banned List:
Strip Mine
Ghost Quarter
Wasteland
The Rack
Trinisphere
Channel
Form of the Dragon
Abandon Hope
Addle
Brain Pry
Blackmail
Cabal Therapy
Duress
Mesmeric Fiend
Meddling Mage
Energy Field
Foil
Force of Will
Show and Tell

Preferred Submission Format: (Use [] instead of <>)

Subject: 4CB #??
YourName
DeckName
Card1
Card2
Card3
Card4

The date for closing entries will be the 7th October - from now on, they're every two weeks. Time Spiral is fine for this tournament.

Thanks,
Adam

[Cross]

I did way better than I thought I was going to.

[Naphtali]

#  101.Ruling.1 - The Leyline cards from Guildpact happen after players are satisfied with their hands, but before the first player takes his or her turn. Each player chooses, in turn order, which Leylines to put into play, then they all reveal their choices simultaneously and put the cards into play simultaneously. These are put into play directly without playing them. They cannot be countered. The player who will be going first determines the timestamp order among Leylines that start the game in play. [Guildpact FAQ 2005/12/22]

Given that you have to make your choices in turn order, As the player going second always has perfect knowledge of their opponents hand, they know whether the player going first has put the leyline into play or not.

So, the player going second will be able to choose whether to have 1 Leyline starting in play (Play theirs if first player didn't, or hold theirs if first player did), or to nuke them both.

 

[Hi-Val]

Wow, I'm awful at this format. And I thought my deck was pretty stellar : (

[Scrappy Kid]

Wow, I'm awful at this format. And I thought my deck was pretty stellar : (

The rules for this tournament did say no Time Spiral cards. 

[combo_dude]

Wow, I'm awful at this format. And I thought my deck was pretty stellar : (

The rules for this tournament did say no Time Spiral cards. 

Oh yeah, it did...bugger. Ah well. As for the deck, it's fine as long as Angel of Despair isn't the only card you can put in play!

Will check results and revise them accordingly, thanks for finding the ruling.

Adam

[parallax]

Ok, maybe there are plenty of good answers to Choker in the format.

[Hi-Val]

Yeah, I figure the opponent just lets me put my dudes into play first and then let the Angels kill themselves. Hmm.

And I coulda sworn that the rules said we could play TS!

[parallax]

Yeah, I figure the opponent just lets me put my dudes into play first and then let the Angels kill themselves. Hmm.

And I coulda sworn that the rules said we could play TS!

You always get at least one Angel, although I'm not sure if you can win with it. Both Angels can target the same Angel.

[xycsoscyx]

#  101.Ruling.1 - The Leyline cards from Guildpact happen after players are satisfied with their hands, but before the first player takes his or her turn. Each player chooses, in turn order, which Leylines to put into play, then they all reveal their choices simultaneously and put the cards into play simultaneously. These are put into play directly without playing them. They cannot be countered. The player who will be going first determines the timestamp order among Leylines that start the game in play. [Guildpact FAQ 2005/12/22]

Given that you have to make your choices in turn order, As the player going second always has perfect knowledge of their opponents hand, they know whether the player going first has put the leyline into play or not.

So, the player going second will be able to choose whether to have 1 Leyline starting in play (Play theirs if first player didn't, or hold theirs if first player did), or to nuke them both.

Ah, it says that you choose the Leylines in turn order, but you reveal their choices simultaneously.  This means that you don't know if your opponent has chosen a Leyline or not.  It doesn't say that you choose one and put it aside, showing that you have some Leyline chosen.  This means that, since that's the point of the decks, I'd assume both players would choose their own Leyline, then both would reveal and put into play simultaneously, which means they both become Legendary and go to the grave.

[Naphtali]

#  101.Ruling.1 - The Leyline cards from Guildpact happen after players are satisfied with their hands, but before the first player takes his or her turn. Each player chooses, in turn order, which Leylines to put into play, then they all reveal their choices simultaneously and put the cards into play simultaneously. These are put into play directly without playing them. They cannot be countered. The player who will be going first determines the timestamp order among Leylines that start the game in play. [Guildpact FAQ 2005/12/22]

Given that you have to make your choices in turn order, As the player going second always has perfect knowledge of their opponents hand, they know whether the player going first has put the leyline into play or not.

So, the player going second will be able to choose whether to have 1 Leyline starting in play (Play theirs if first player didn't, or hold theirs if first player did), or to nuke them both.

Ah, it says that you choose the Leylines in turn order, but you reveal their choices simultaneously.  This means that you don't know if your opponent has chosen a Leyline or not.  It doesn't say that you choose one and put it aside, showing that you have some Leyline chosen.  This means that, since that's the point of the decks, I'd assume both players would choose their own Leyline, then both would reveal and put into play simultaneously, which means they both become Legendary and go to the grave.

Why would the order of choices be specified if the cards weren't put aside or in some other way indicated? Surely it would read "Each player chooses which Leylines to put into play, then they all reveal their choices simultaneously and put the cards into play simultaneously." Normally you can't see your opponents hand so the effect is almost the same. The point of specifying the choices in turn order would be to prevent dextrous opponents from getting any advantage.

[Scrappy Kid]

Yeah, I figure the opponent just lets me put my dudes into play first and then let the Angels kill themselves. Hmm.

You always get at least one Angel, although I'm not sure if you can win with it. Both Angels can target the same Angel.

If the opponent doesn't play anything off the Hypergenesis (which seems likely) you only get to play one Angel, which will have to target itself.

[parallax]

Yeah, I figure the opponent just lets me put my dudes into play first and then let the Angels kill themselves. Hmm.

You always get at least one Angel, although I'm not sure if you can win with it. Both Angels can target the same Angel.

If the opponent doesn't play anything off the Hypergenesis (which seems likely) you only get to play one Angel, which will have to target itself.

Hypergenesis is green.
Suspend 3-
Starting with you, each player may put an artifact, creature, enchantment, or land card from his or her hand into play. Repeat this process until no one puts a card into play.

Why do you only get to play one Angel?

[combo_dude]

Sorry for not replying to this sooner - I've been incredibly busy running the freshers' stuff at uni for the last week, I've barely been on TMD at all.

Firstly, a plea for more decks, as I've hardly got any at the moment; the first two tournaments have been really encouraging as far as turnout goes, I'd like that to continue. As for the Hypergenesis issue, now that I think about it, you'd get an Angel - if the opponent does nothing, then you can target the same Angel with each destroy effect, whilst if there are any targets, both Angels are destroyed. I'll take another look at the results.

Lastly, with Leylines, unless someone can provide a convincing reason why I shouldn't (as the issue seems fairly ambiguous), I'll stick with what I've done so far. Maybe the player playing second should be able to decide whether there's a Leyline? Or that each player should assume that the opponent (if it's advantageous to do so) would put the Leyline into play if the opponent was to do nothing?

Adam

[Scrappy Kid]

Hypergenesis is green.
Suspend 3-
Starting with you, each player may put an artifact, creature, enchantment, or land card from his or her hand into play. Repeat this process until no one puts a card into play.

Why do you only get to play one Angel?

Unless I am completely misreading the card... [completely wrong stuff followed...]

Edit: I was completely misreading the card 

[parallax]

Repeat this process until no one puts a card into play.

About the Leylines: I believe the second player should be able to decide to play his leyline or not based on what the first player does. In other words, the player going second chooses whether there is a Leyline of Singularity in play or not (by playing his depending on whether the first player played his, he can always choose for there to be a Leyline in play or not).

How can you choose to put a Leyline into play without setting it aside? You have to designate that choice somehow.

[Franz Ferdinand]

For Leylines: Assume that the nonactive player always gets what is best for him. If it is better for him to have a Leyline in play, he will know if there is one there already and won't play his. If it is not, he'll either not play his or play his to trigger the Legend rule.

[combo_dude]

Still not enough decks, hence no results today...come on guys! I know I've been a bit lax as far as running these goes, but a few more decks would be good. If people want to submit second decks, go for it. I'll put them up no later than Wednesday, regardless of turnout.

Adam

[keys]

combo_dude, I PMed you my deck.  Is there enough now?

I think the only deck mine can lose to is Stax, and only when it's not on the play.  :lol:  But this is my first attempt, so we'll see...

[Naphtali]

Could you list who you do have decks from? I think I submitted a deck, but its a while ago and I can't remember what I submitted 

[Cross]

Yeah I keep having the same issue, especailly between 4 and 3cb.