Thick-Skinned Goblin and Echo

[parallax]

Thus, it is illegal to allow your opponent to move to his draw step. If your opponent draws his card without asking, then you can insist he didn't pay echo and his creature is sacrificed, but if he asks, you must point out the triggered ability on the stack.

No, it is not illegal, and no, you are not obliged to point him the triggered ability on the stack.
This is not an opinion Im giving, but the current legal interpretation of the rules regarding optionnal triggered abilities.

It is similar with Upkeep.
FYI Cumulative Upkeep is NOT an optionnal trigger, since adding the Time counter is a mandatory action.

Echo is not an optional trigger, either. Paying the echo or sacrificing the permanent is a mandatory action.

502.19a Echo is a triggered ability. "Echo [cost]" means "At the beginning of your upkeep, if this permanent came under your control since the beginning of your last upkeep, sacrifice it unless you pay [cost]."

[Apollyon]

Paying the cost isn't mandatory. That's the difference.

You aren't allowed to allow your opponent to forget Dark Confidant, since that's not optional. You don't need to remind your opponent to pay the mana, but you need to remind them that they should sacrifice their permanent.

[parallax]

Paying the cost isn't mandatory. That's the difference.

You aren't allowed to allow your opponent to forget Dark Confidant, since that's not optional. You don't need to remind your opponent to pay the mana, but you need to remind them that they should sacrifice their permanent.

Right, so if they say "Draw for turn?", you need to remind them to pay the cost or sacrifice their permanent.

[Apollyon]

This isn't MODO. There is no hand-holding. Their payment isn't mandatory.

As such, you need to remind them that their creature is dead when they draw for their turn, as they chose not to pay for their echo, therefore, their creature needs to be dead.

[Toad]

Right, so if they say "Draw for turn?", you need to remind them to pay the cost or sacrifice their permanent.

No, you don't. Cant you read what people told you already?

Echo can be reworded as :

502.19a Echo is a triggered ability. "Echo [cost]" means "At the beginning of your upkeep, if this permanent came under your control since the beginning of your last upkeep, you may pay [cost]. If you don't, sacrifice it."

It is the very same wording rules wise.
The only thing that you are asked is whether you want to pay [cost]. Sacrifice is a direct consequence of your choice. And not the other way around.

And MTG rules havent added CTRL+U so far.

[parallax]

Right, so if they say "Draw for turn?", you need to remind them to pay the cost or sacrifice their permanent.

No, you don't. Cant you read what people told you already?

Echo can be reworded as :

502.19a Echo is a triggered ability. "Echo [cost]" means "At the beginning of your upkeep, if this permanent came under your control since the beginning of your last upkeep, you may pay [cost]. If you don't, sacrifice it."

It is the very same wording rules wise.
The only thing that you are asked is whether you want to pay [cost]. Sacrifice is a direct consequence of your choice. And not the other way around.

And MTG rules havent added CTRL+U so far.

I can read just fine, thank you. I've read everything everyone has said and I still disagree with it.

The reason Disicple triggers and other optional triggered abilities can be skipped is that one of the possible outcomes is "nothing happens". An artifact goes to the graveyard: my opponent can choose either to make me lose a life or for nothing to happen. Since my opponent does nothing, I assume he chooses "nothing happens". This is a valid game state that can be reached legally from the previous game state.

If there is an echo trigger on the stack, there are also two options: sacrifice the creature or pay the echo. As the creature is still in play and the echo cost is unpaid, it is not possible to continue with the game until one of those happens. This isn't about hand-holding or MODO, this is about maintaining a valid game state. And as much as it seems to anger you, sometimes you do have to point things out to your opponent that are to their advantage.

[LordHomerCat]

If my opponent has an avalance riders out and echo to pay, ands says "Draw for turn?", why am I not allowed to say "OK" and then point to his avalance riders and tell him to bury them?  By asking, it seems he is saying he has no more effects on his upkeep and wishes to pass priority and move to his draw step, which is just fine with me.  I see no reason I am obligated to remind him "Don't forget your echo" when he has just said "I pass priority to you, do you want to do anything?"  Toad's argument makes much more sense, my opponent wants to move to his draw and not pay his echo triggers, so why can't I let him?

[ashiXIII]

Right, so if they say "Draw for turn?", you need to remind them to pay the cost or sacrifice their permanent.

No, you don't. Cant you read what people told you already?

Echo can be reworded as :

502.19a Echo is a triggered ability. "Echo [cost]" means "At the beginning of your upkeep, if this permanent came under your control since the beginning of your last upkeep, you may pay [cost]. If you don't, sacrifice it."

It is the very same wording rules wise.
The only thing that you are asked is whether you want to pay [cost]. Sacrifice is a direct consequence of your choice. And not the other way around.

And MTG rules havent added CTRL+U so far.

I can read just fine, thank you. I've read everything everyone has said and I still disagree with it.

The reason Disicple triggers and other optional triggered abilities can be skipped is that one of the possible outcomes is "nothing happens". An artifact goes to the graveyard: my opponent can choose either to make me lose a life or for nothing to happen. Since my opponent does nothing, I assume he chooses "nothing happens". This is a valid game state that can be reached legally from the previous game state.

If there is an echo trigger on the stack, there are also two options: sacrifice the creature or pay the echo. As the creature is still in play and the echo cost is unpaid, it is not possible to continue with the game until one of those happens. This isn't about hand-holding or MODO, this is about maintaining a valid game state. And as much as it seems to anger you, sometimes you do have to point things out to your opponent that are to their advantage.

For a while, Parallax was actually correct. You had to point anything out to your opponent that required them to do something either way, such as Echo or CU. However, the most recent policy revision changes this. You do NOT have to remind your opponent of CU or Echo. If they forget, they sacrifice the permanent. This has been discussed on the judge list, and that is the Official ruling. You do still have to remind your opponent of absolutely mandatory abilities such as Dark Confidant and Mana Crypt, though.

[LordHomerCat]

On a semi-related note, did they change the rulings on forgetting recover?  I'm not a registered judge so I don't actually read the mailing list, just curious if the current procedure is still "if you forget, it stays in the graveyard"?

[ashiXIII]

On a semi-related note, did they change the rulings on forgetting recover?  I'm not a registered judge so I don't actually read the mailing list, just curious if the current procedure is still "if you forget, it stays in the graveyard"?

If both players forgot and some time elapses, it stays in the graveyard. This is also true for Cumulative Upkeep and Echo, however. If your opponent forgets to pay a Recover cost, you're allowed to let just enough time go by for that trigger to have resolved and remind them that they need to RFG it.

[Toad]

If there is an echo trigger on the stack, there are also two options: sacrifice the creature or pay the echo.

This is where you are wrong. The two options are not "sacrifice" or "pay Echo". They are "pay Echo" and "dont pay Echo". According to the way ability is worded, "dont pay Echo" is the default choice.

this is about maintaining a valid game state.

Maintainning the game state is the reason why the creature dies. Its Echo cost hasnt been paid, so it cannot remain in play. Sacrificing the creature is not a choice you make. It is a direct consequence of not paying Echo.

And as much as it seems to anger you, sometimes you do have to point things out to your opponent that are to their advantage.

I do it when the game rules force me to. Which is not the case with Echo.

[xycsoscyx]

So do we have official Judge rulings on this yet?  Echo being optional only works when you reword the rule itself to a "may".  The rule (as it's written?) don't say "may", so how can it be optional.  I really do see both sides of the arguement, but I agree that it shouldn't be considered an optional effect.  You either need to pay the cost or sacrifice the creature, there isn't a default unless you reword the rule to use "may".  Same with CU, you must add a time counter, even if you choose to sac the creature.  If you forget both and move on, you can't just say "Oh well, you didn't pay, sac it", because the Time counter was never added, either, which IS a mandatory effect.  So you skipped two effects and just went with the (potentially) worse case scenario for the optional one?

As a note, a lot of this just seems more in the spirit of good sportsmanship.  If the ruling is that you don't need to announce anything (even if you notice it when it's relevant), and force the sacrifice afterwards, then so be it, as long as that's the official ruling.  It seems like a cheap shot (oy, if you read SCG forums, you know my opinion on that), having certain knowledge of the gamestate that your opponent has overlooked, then using that against them afterwards.  If that it withing the letter of the rules as a legal, then the rules are a bit fubar.  Knowing about the Echo during the Upkeep, but not mentioning it until the Draw step, just to force a sac, doesn't seem to be in the spirit of good sportsmanship.  What the hell though, Mike Long was the poster boy for the Pro Tour, right?   :lol:  (yes, that was sarcasm, I know a lot of people are sticklers for the rules in tournaments, but most people are still good sportsman).

[parallax]

The judges are thinking about/reworking/updating their policies regarding echo and the like. Hopefully, their policy will clear up the issues we're discussing here.

[xycsoscyx]

That, among other things *cough cough the other thread about Void Maw cough cough*, would be nice to have a clear and official ruling on.