[Deck Discussion] MUD

[zulander]

Alrighty then, mono brown it is. I did some research in gatherer and have found a couple random artifacts that draw cards. While most were cantrips like eggs and such, some weren't too bad. I'll list them below.

Serum Tank   3 Mana   Artifact   Whenever Serum Tank or another artifact comes into play, put a charge counter on Serum Tank.
3 Mana, Tap, Remove a charge counter from Serum Tank: Draw a card.

Urza's Miter   3 Mana   Artifact   Whenever an artifact you control is put into a graveyard from play, if it wasn't sacrificed, you may pay 3 Mana. If you do, draw a card.

Well of Knowledge   3 Mana   Artifact   2 Mana: Draw a card. Any player may play this ability but only during his or her draw step.

Fool's Tome   4 Mana   Artifact   2 Mana, Tap: Draw a card. Play this ability only if you have no cards in hand.

Jalum Tome   3 Mana   Artifact   2 Mana, Tap: Draw a card, then discard a card.

Farsight Mask   5 Mana   Artifact   Whenever a source an opponent controls deals damage to you, if Farsight Mask is untapped, you may draw a card.


Most of these would be unplayable, but I'm just trying to throw out there anything that might be helpful

[Whatever Works]

If your going to run cloister it should be a 4 of, because the ability just gets better with multiples.

Also 4 wastelands is a MUST... Going 3/3 with it and ghost quarter makes no sense. Most decks run more then 1 basic nowadays... or they run none... That being be case 4th waste is better then 3rd ghostquarter...

I honestly dont thing MUD works... i tried it extensively and even got some top 4's/top 8's... won a few side events... but it just was not good enough to hang with the better players when the deck wasnt on the play. Perhaps its better in this metagame then the 1 I played it in 3 months ago, but thats just my take.

Kyle L.

[WhiteWolf]

This is the latest version I want to test this weekend:

4 Metalworker
4 Karn, Silver Golem

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
4 Jester’s Cap
4 Smokestack

4 Bottled Cloister
1 Memory Jar

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Wasteland
2 City of Traitors
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith

Sideboard

4 Defense Grid
4 Damping Matrix
4 Orb of Dreams
3 Ensnaring Bridge

I took the advise of a friend of mine to heart and maindecked the Caps. This version is a little different in strategy than my previous versions on this thread: while the other ones try to choke mana with Winter Orb, Orb of Dreams and Ghost Quarter; this version trades those cards for extra fast mana (Citys), extra draw and 4 Caps. Instead of slowing the game down extremely, this deck goes for the 'quicker' kill with 4 Karns and 4 Caps. The Chalices, Spheres and Wires are of course kept to buy the first turns. We'll see wich is the best strategy. At the moment the Smokestacks are in the 'could-be-cut' heap because they seem slow in this version. Maybe some Triskelions, Null Brooch, extra arti-mana (Petal, Mox Diamond, LED, ... ). Triskelions are prime candidates because they fasten the kill and remove pesky Welders and Fishies.

Does anyone have an opinion on this 'different' strategy?

EDIT: When I posted this I thought the one-turn-kill through some more and you could take it to the extreme:

Dies-to-Null-Rod.dec

4 Metalworker
4 Karn, Silver Golem

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Defense Grid (protects your kill against counters and end-of-turn bounce, doesn't make your own things more expensive like Sphere does)
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
4 Jester’s Cap
4 Mindslaver (an activation could be (game-ending) crippling against most decks)

4 Staff of Domination (Staff + Worker = attack with your whole Karn-animated deck)
1 Memory Jar

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 City of Traitors (quick mana, cut Wasteland because they don't fit this strategy and their dwindling usefelness in this meta)
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond (activate Cap or Slaver a turn earlier)
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith

Sideboard

Very much up in the air at the moment. Probably you want to have a sideboard geared against the decks your 'combos' aren't good against. A 'switch' to a ShopAggro style comes to mind. Suggestions:
x Razormane Masticore (against Rod Fish, Goblins, ... )
x Clockwork Hydra (against Rod Fish, Ichorid, ... ) can take out Grunt together with Razormane
x Juggernaut
x Duplicant
x Orb of Dreams (against Ichorid, Dragon, ... )
x Granite Shard (against Fish, Welder, Ichorid, ... )
x Caltrops (against Ichorid and Fish)
x Ensnaring Bridge (against Rod Fish, Ichorid) This gives problems without the ability to remove it with Smokestack.

That last deck is completely off-the-wall and pure theory so be gentle  .

WhiteWolf

[xycsoscyx]

Don't forget that even with Karn, Artifacts that are animated will have summoning sickness.  This means with Worker/Staff you can go through your deck and play everything, but you can't attack until the next turn.

[zeus-online]

Don't forget that even with Karn, Artifacts that are animated will have summoning sickness.  This means with Worker/Staff you can go through your deck and play everything, but you can't attack until the next turn.

Oh...so he has to pass the turn, and then his opponent is gonna kill him through 4 sphere of resistance, 4 chalice of the void (Set at any number imaginable), 1 trinisphere and after being jester's capped 4 times? Hmmm i think i'll take the chance and give him a turn

/Zeus

Edit: Not to mention mind slavering him so that the turn dosn't matter.

[zulander]

How good/bad would myr incubator be in this deck?

[Dakkon]

How good/bad would myr incubator be in this deck?

It would be bad. because all the myrs have summoning sickness so your opponent could just wreck you with a re-build on his turn. and you would lose the game. karn is better since the artifacts your your animating actually do something. so hinder your opponent.

[yespuhyren]

While you can do it a their EOT and then swing on your turn, if they see you have the incubator they will leave mana open to bounce them (if they even have their 1 or 2 bounce spells in hand, lets not forget they might not have it, because its not like they have many)

I do not see this being the best idea either, but bounce isn't the reason I would be afraid. 

[wethepeople]

I too think adding blue isnt good for the deck. Ancestral is god, and I didnt just mispell good, but no matter how good it is i dont think adding color is a good idea because it forces you to change around your mana base a ton, and working with nothing but colorless mana makes it twice as fast, literally. Thoughtcast is weak, it would be shitty in this deck, MUD doesnt use quite as many artifacts as you think, well it does, just they arent those 0 mana ones that allow you to play everything for 0, so trying to morph the deck into Affinity wouldnt really work out as you think.

[WhiteWolf]

I tested the Cap/Slaver/Staff version some yesterday evening. It was “two-fisted” testing because I couldn’t meet up with my regular team this weekend, so testing results are not ideal although give a good first idea.

I tested against MDGifts, UW Fish (because I feel them to be (some of) the strongest contenders in this metagame at the moment) and Ichorid (for its "arch-nemesis of Stax" status). I’m planning to do some more testing later this week against IT/Pitchlong, Goblins, … Stax will be hard because I would have to proxy practically everything . i'm not going to give percentages because nobody seems to like those and there's the whole two-fisted testing thing.

This is the sideboard I used (maindeck can be found a few posts up):

Sideboard

4 Orb of Dreams
4 Clockwork Hydra
4 Razormane Masticore
3 Duplicant

Anyhow, testing went like this:

MDGifts: Like expected the Caps were great in these games; one activation is enough to kill most of the builds. Also the Slavers had their use. Slaving a Gifts player and Brainstorming some crap, fetching the good cards away, Giftsing for useless crap, Tinkering for a Mox, countering its own spells, … The advantage this created was OR game-breaking OR gave me enough time to kill with one of the other things. I sideboarded in Duplicants to deal with resolved Colossus. Often Colossus was dealt with by bying turns with Wire, Slaver and rushing with Karn and his buddies. Sometimes you wear them down with your barrage of Caps and Slavers and you slip the Worker/Staff combo through. I have to admit I’m certainly not a Gifts player but I had a very positive feel of the match-up in favor of "Capped Slaver MUD". This was to be expected when you fill your deck with 4 Chalice, 4 Grid, 4 Cap, …

UW Fish: Like I expected, the maindeck wasn’t very strong against UW Fish. The Caps and Slavers were almost useless, although the Slavers can occasionally wreck them (sacrifice Grunt, counter his own stuff, Brainstorm/fetch crap, Plow his critters, … ). Pre-board winning was conceived by slowing him down with Chalices (Chalice on 2!) and Wires and beating down with Karn. Occasionally the Staff kill got through. After sideboarding Fish got massacred by 4 each of Razormane and Clockwork Hydra (great new creature, works under Rod). Sideboarding was simple: - 4 Cap & - 4 Slaver, + 4 Razormane & +4 Hydra. Energy Flux + Wasteland was a nightmare, Chalice for 3 is a priority when you expect that sort of thing.

Ichorid: I think this MUD has a slightly better match-up against Ichorid than most Stax Decks. Your normal disruption of Wire and Grid is pretty useless but Chalice can have its merits when put on 1 to stop Putrids and sideboarded Chains. On the other hand you can play your Cap/Slaver plan without fear of counters, Wastes, … An activation of one of these puts you greatly ahead by Capping Ichorids or removing them to each other in the Slaver turn. Karn & his buddies form pretty great blockers. After sideboarding the 4 Orb of Dreams came in and strengthened the match-up. It’s not an auto-win but certainly not so favored for Ichorid like a lot of people would think.

Overall impression: The deck feels pretty powerful because of the great effects of Cap and Slaver and the speed with wich you can activate them. On the whole the Staff/worker combo didn’t came up that much. Staff was sometimes used to tap Colossus, Fishies, … but that’s pretty marginal. Maybe they could be replaced by Sundering Titan? Titan screws manabases pretty good and kills in 3 turns. I’m going to test that. Replacing Staff with other draw like Cloister seems too slow. Another option is extra quick mana like Crystal Vein or even Thran Dynamo OR the extra disruption of Sphere. Maybe even the Incubators zulander mentioned, although that seems expensive and risky. Would be very stylish however 

WhiteWolf

[zeus-online]

Did you ever find all the slavers and jesters a little cumbersome? i mean, you probably don't have a worker in EVERY opening hand

And how come you didn't test against slaver or combo?


/Zeus

[WhiteWolf]

zeus-online:

Did you ever find all the slavers and jesters a little cumbersome? i mean, you probably don't have a worker in EVERY opening hand Wink

And how come you didn't test against slaver or combo?

Metalworker isn't a necessity. Sure, he's very good but the deck makes a lot of mana on its own. I haven't tested those match-ups yet because the time or opportunity didn't came up yet.

On the other hand I did some very quick and short testing of a Null Rod version:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Null Rod
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Uba Mask

4 Bazaar of Baghdad

4 Ghost Quarter
4 God’s Eye, Gate to the Reikai
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Workshop
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard

4 Damping Matrix (Welders, Heretics, random crap)
4 Ensnaring Bridge / 4 Maze of Ith (Colossus, Oath, Ichorid)
4 Orb of Dreams (Ichorid, Combo, fetches)
3 Duplicant (Colossus, Oath, random crap)

This deck seems pretty good. Metalworkers got cut but this was equated by the overflow of cheap locks: Rod, Sphere and Chalice. The most expensive are Stack and Uba. This deck plays two (or one if counters are present) locks on the first turn (mostly Rod, Chalice or Sphere) and follows it up with one/two lock on the second turn. Other strenghts are the Bazaar/Uba engine, 9 strips and the versatility of God's Eye. Games often went:

turn 1: Shop, Mox, Rod (countered), Chalice for 0
turn 2: Smokey, Waste/Quarter land
turn 3: CoW, God's Eye, Sphere

At this point you got a pretty nice lock going. Some God's Eye/Smokestack interaction and you can start beating down with spirits. This deck has some nice things going I think: mana stability (by its cheap locks, colorless nature and CoW), 9 strips (with CoW), a LOT of locks, no wasted win-condition spots, ... I know this looks a lot like UbaStax. Uba is probably better although this could have it's own advantages like Chalice on 1, 9 strips, at least 4 more locks, ... And I want to play MonoBrown, damnit!

WhiteWolf

[xycsoscyx]

The biggest problem I see with that list is that God's Eye is the only win condition, and it must be sac'ed.  That's not necesarily a problem, but it's conditional, even adding something like Sundering Titan for the later game and to actually win seems like it would be useful, unless there is something that I am missing.

[WhiteWolf]

xycsoscyx :

The biggest problem I see with that list is that God's Eye is the only win condition, and it must be sac'ed.  That's not necesarily a problem, but it's conditional, even adding something like Sundering Titan for the later game and to actually win seems like it would be useful, unless there is something that I am missing.

I understand your view but in my (limited) testing it hasn't been a problem. I used to play 5cStax a lot in the past and I have used only one God's Eye as a win-condition in those decks. The God's Eye is quicker than you would think and the conditions are met pretty easily: an active Smokey and CoW.

The speed:
I have a feeling this deck doesn't need a quick, big win-condition like something like 5cStax often does. This deck tends/tries to put people in a full lock with Smokey/Cow and Rod/Chalice-on-0 and Chalice-on-1 or something in that trend. Winning is just a formality at that moment. However when you get a extra 1/1 every turn it goes pretty quick.

The conditions:
This deck plays all 4'ofs and restricted cards, so having an active Smokey and CoW is pretty standard. Sacrificing God's Eye to Smokey and bringing it back with CoW is the usual procedure (and has the added benefit of feeding Smokey forever at the same time). There are other methods when in need however (didn't come up yet however). With only a CoW in play you can play a second God's Eye with one already on the table. Because they're Legendary they both get buried and you get 2 tokens (I hope it works like this?) and reapeat it in the next turns. The same can be done with Waste-or-Quarter/CoW/God's Eye. Another option (without CoW) is killing God's Eye with Smokey and Waste/Quarter and beating with only one spirit until you get a CoW. Okay this is slower but like I said hasn't come up yet (with 4 of each).

In short, God's Eye is ideal for this deck because it acts as a mana-source AND great Smokey fodder until it is time to win. I agree someting like Titan could be a nice as a 'safety-net' BUT these kind of Big-Artifact-Dudes are clunky because they don't really complement the lock or give mana and the non-vanilla ones cost a lot. This decks gets less mana than most Stax decks because of the Rods and loves to run (and can at the moment) on a maximum of 4 mana. On top of that, what to cut, what to cut? At the moment I would love to add Mox Diamond (props to Evenpence and yespuhyren for including this in their UbaStax!) because I play 22 lands but I can't find room at the moment.

I'm going to test some more this evening, but the concept seems pretty strong, especially against most Control and Combo decks. They lack non-land permanents, so when you disable their artifact-mana with Rod/Chalice, Smokey can wipe up their lands. I imagine decks with more non-land permanents like Fish, Goblins and especially Stax are harder. This is where Wire and Sphere come up to slow them down so Smokey can do it's dirty thing.

Speaking of Stax: wich are good Sideboard cards against them? I hate the Stax-on-Stax match-up. At the moment I'm thinking of Matrix for their Welders, Heretics, ... and Duplicants to remove their win-conditions.

WhiteWolf

[madmanmike25]

So it seems there are three different MUD decks being discussed here.  The first one with all the disruption, the second with slaver and caps and now this one with null rods.  I would prefer more focus.  Which build so far do you think has a better chance against a DIVERSE meta??

Does the latest list have problems with sphere out?  I notice there are not Ancient Tombs or City of Traitors for more mana.  Would defense grid be the better choice then?

I havent been able to follow this thread, but it seems you are going off on tangents.  Bias would have me say that there is probably one MUD deck that has the most favorable matchups.

I do however have a suggestion for your "dies to nullrod.dec"  Check out thran turbine.  Its great for activating slavers/caps and works with rishadan ports.  I am currently trying to build a deck based on activated abilities.  Since Titan is such a bomb, i have been using copper gnomes to bring him out.  Its kinda janky but fun.

goodluck
mike

[xycsoscyx]

Oh I agree that God's Eye can be quite useful, anything that has synergy with Stax, AND has the double effects, can't be all bad.  Fortunately Wizards decided to make it produce mana, so it's usually not a dead drop, just a slow clock (though, Welder beat down is also a 20 turn clock, at least with God's Eye you can replay and get more tokens).

As for Titan in particular, he IS part of the lock, since he owns basic lands left and right, but I agree that he's a bit of a high casting cost for this particular deck (since Tinker/Welder is the usual way to get him into play anyways).  Though Copper Gnomes sounds like an interesting method!    Like I said, though, he is a lock in himself, that's why Stax runs him.  If not for adding to the lock, we'd just run Colossus and hope for the random first turn Tinker/Colossus/FTW hand.

As for sideboard options, that is tough with MonoBrown.  Matrix is nice, as it shuts down Trikes and such, along with the usual Welders and all (even Razia's redirection ability).  Duplicant is meh in this deck, I would think, as it's 6 casting cost, and it's a one shot deal.  The nice thing about it in Stax is that you can Weld it in and out, taking out creatures left and right.  I think Null Rod and Matrix are some of the strongest plays you can make against Stax, when only using MonoBrown.  Though Null Brooch is pretty strong, as well, since you can already shut down a lot of creatures with Matrix, you can use Brooch to counter the rest of their spells and locks.  Ensnaring Bridge would be nice, as well, since you'd only have to keep one card in hand to attack with your tokens, but they are stuck with their fatties (in fact, this can work against a number of decks).  A last posibility is Granite Shard, you can't pay the R (unless you have out Mox Ruby), but you shoudn't have tooooo much difficulty paying the 3, and it lets you pick off a lot of Fish, Welders, Bobs, Ichorids, etc.

[WhiteWolf]

So it seems there are three different MUD decks being discussed here.  The first one with all the disruption, the second with slaver and caps and now this one with null rods.  I would prefer more focus.  Which build so far do you think has a better chance against a DIVERSE meta??

Yeah, I was afraid the different decklists and especially different versions, would confuse some people. I’m really sorry if I confused someone or “ruined” their reading or anything. I don’t want to look unfocused or anything but I’m just throwing ideas and lists out there to see what people think. When I’m working on a deck I tend to “spill over” with new ideas, you probably know what I mean. I believe we can’t really formulate a definite MUD-list at the moment. But I agree, although it could depend on the metagame, there must be one objectivily “best list”. Something like my traditional list (or the one like MaxxMatt posted – he seems to be the MUD specialist throughout the years) seems to be the most certain option.

So to clarify, three radically different versions were talked about in this thread:

·   the traditional MUD with Karn kill
·   the “Dies-to-Null-Rod-deck” that goes for one-turn kills with Caps and Slavers
·   the Null Rod version that goes for the complete lock and kills with God’s Eye

I already said the traditional build would be the most “certain” option but personally I would go with the Null Rod version. That’s also the one I’m testing at the moment and feels the strongest.

Maybe I could start separate new threads for all three versions but I don’t think the mods would like that?!

I do however have a suggestion for your "dies to nullrod.dec"  Check out thran turbine

Thran Turbine is a great suggestion! Probably the Staffs in the original list can be substituted with these because they seem to be the most random cards in the deck. The Turbines are indeed great to activate Caps, Slaver and Karns. I wouldn’t maybe really “speed up” the kill because you just as well could use the mana you used the previous turn to cast the Cap or Slaver BUT it frees mana for new threats. Thanks for the suggestion!

Does the latest list have problems with sphere out?  I notice there are not Ancient Tombs or City of Traitors for more mana.  Would defense grid be the better choice then?

In my testing so far I haven’t been screwed by Sphere yet. I could imagine it could happen and it would be nice to include Tombs but that would mean I need to cut the Quarters or God’s Eye, wich I really don’t want to do. Probably the best substitution for the Spheres would indeed be Defense Grids, wich are very good against control decks and end-of-turn crap like Rebuild. Another option could be Winter Orb. I’ll try it out.

Oh I agree that God's Eye can be quite useful, anything that has synergy with Stax, AND has the double effects, can't be all bad.  Fortunately Wizards decided to make it produce mana, so it's usually not a dead drop, just a slow clock (though, Welder beat down is also a 20 turn clock, at least with God's Eye you can replay and get more tokens).

I repeat, it isn’t THAT slow. Besides, you almost always have the full lock before you go for the kill. Titan, like you suggest, would be great for this deck if he was a 3/5 for 4 mana with the same ability but as is he is too expensive to cast with consistent reliance. Copper Gnomes seems out of the question with the Rods. It is an original idea however for the Cap/Slaver version.

As for sideboard options, that is tough with MonoBrown. …

Indeed, I have the maindeck completely figured out at the moment but the sideboard is a different animal. The only certain inclusion at the moment is Damping Matrix because those seem really needed to defend against Welder, Heretic, … and screws other things. Null Rod + Damping Matrix could be a nice plan against Stax. Duplicant is indeed expensive (only 2 less than Titan) but very good against Welder, Heretic, Fatties, … A cheaper replacement would be in order however. Null Brooch is VERY good but against the decks I would bring them in (Gifts, Control Slaver, … ) I also (and probably moreso) want Null Rod. Ensnaring bridge is indeed also very good. I would include those OR Maze of Ith. Those last ones aren’t screwed by bounce but can’t stop whole hordes of Goblins, Fish, Elves (yes, they’re in my metagame and they can be a nightmare for Stax!). Granite Shard seems to be infinitely better for UbaStax. 3 non-shop-mana can be a lot and a double activation to kill Meddling Mage for example is just dreaming. If I wanted something like this I would rather play Aeolipile, although the Shards can be good against Welder, Bob and Ichorid.

Fish, by the way, is only problematic because of their sideboarded Energy Fluxes. I hate that card and can’t find a sideboard card for it. Any ideas?

At the moment the sideboard will be completely determined by testing but something like this seems appropriate:

4 Damping Matrix
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Orb of Dreams
3 Duplicant

Welder: 7 ; Fish: 7 ; Colossus/Oath: 7 ; Ichorid : 8

Another viable option would be to have a sideboard to switch in ShopAggro mode:

4 Damping Matrix
4 Clockwork Hydra
4 Razormane Masticore
3 Duplicant

This seems better against the Stax-mirror and Fish decks, while the first one is better against Control and Combo. The maindeck is already completely geared for Control and Combo so …

Again, sorry if I confused someone. I hope we could talk some more (focused) about MUD and its versions.

Thanks,
WhiteWolf

[SiegeX]

What do you guys think of

Storage Matrix
As long as Storage Matrix is untapped, before a player untaps all permanents he or she controls during his or her untap step, that player chooses artifacts, creatures, or lands. Permanents not of the chosen type don't untap this untap step.

I always thought this would be an interesting card to play in affinity since both your lands and 95% of your other perms are artifacts making this a one-sided effect. Even though MUD doesn't play artifact lands I think it still could be worth testing as it has great synergy with tangle wire.  Note that Storage Matrix does not override effects which prevent a permanent from untapping.   My pet deck from Ice Age to when I quit in Exodus was a MUD-type deck that would get updated with each set, so now that im back ~8 years later this type of deck still has a special place in my heart and I'd would DEFINITELY like to kick some blue a$$ with it =P

[orgcandman]

Well, since I'm getting out of the game and no one on my team is really interested in it, I'll release a neat-o MUD-esque deck that I worked on for a while:

V. 1.0 - Code Name: BACCARDI

4x workshop
4x volcanic
3x ancient tomb
2x polluted delta
7x SoLoMoxen
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crypt
4x Wasteland
1x strip mine

//artifacts that say woooo
4x Metalworker
4x Tangle Wire
3x Juggernaut
3x Phyrexian Soulgorger
3x Lightning Greaves
1x Staff of Domination
1x Memory Jar

//blue cards, woo
3x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Tinker

//Partridge in a pear tree, woo
4x Goblin Welder

============
Observations:
- Tanglewire is amazing.
- The threat density is ridiculous. EVERY card that you play is a threat. Welder, thirst, jar, staff, worker, greaves, all of them. Threats. The only things that aren't threats are mana.
- There is a touch too much mana every now and then. Normally, the curve is fine. However, I've been finding that sometimes I don't want as many mana sources. I may cut a volcanic, workshop or wasteland after testing.
- I clean weenie's clock. TMWA, U/W, U/G, and U/R fish, and erayo all get wrecked by this. Something to do with being able to drop ass tons of fatties that swing right away. Or something. Even Grunt wasn't too big of a problem, since neither graveyard fills up enough.
- DSC may make it in. He's big, indestructable, and with metalworker not even that far of a stretch to hardcast
- I've combo'd out someone before by recuring memory jar 6 times over the course of 2 turns, and then ancestraling them. After they thirsted twice. It was the best win ever.

Anyway, do with that what you will.

[SiegeX]

I like the look of it, but you're short 4 cards, im going to guess 4 Flooded Strand?

[Wudil]

I'd guess 1 Trinisphere and 3 Crucibles?

There are enough manasources in this deck.

[cophos]

@all: Nice analysis so far. There's some solid tech in this thread for sure.

It was mentioned several times that Mud's kill conditions are too slow without a game ending lock. Have you guys ever considered running a more aggro oriented build? (The question to be asked however is: are we better off with some guys, who put pressure on the opponent and therefore limit the time he has got to get rid of our disruption OR would one rather want to have additional lock pieces to enable a game ending state as soon as p.)
I'm aware that this would probably not accurately match Mud's normal game plan but it would offer some very promising possibilities:
I've tested some sort of stacker a few days ago. Stacker does run red for Welder and Pillar, these two however weren't that impressive so that I thought about cutting the color entirely and going mud style.
A big benefit of running a mono brown deck is (imo) Rishadan Port. Seriously, this card's impressive and it eliminates a good deal of MSW Aggro's biggest flaws. Most notably the vulnerability to Mana Drains. Additionally it's HOT with a guy on the table.
Chalice/Sphere + guy + Port (or Waste) is very efficient, I have never saw a tempo deck like this!
It's pretty much everything fish wants to be. You could even run Null Rod without too much trouble. But while Rod's actually fair in fish, mud aggro doesn't even play by its one rules, since Workshop cheats mana costs nevertheless. First turn Shop + Rod, second turn guy is just amazing! (Additionally it crushes aggro by having twice as big creatures as pretty much every other "creature deck" in the format!) 
 Dont't forget about the really cool interaction between Port and Null Rod.
As I sated above I'm not totally sure if that's the way to go, but everybody who's interested in playing mono brown should consider these options. With a fair arsenal of Su-chi's, R. Masticores, Juggs et cetera every card in your deck actually spells "5-10" damage. (Waste, Sphere, Chalice, ... However.. while this lock components simply slow the opponent down without pressure on the board, they suddenly become very dangerous when there are critters on the table cause now you're actually using the Time Walks you're generating. These creatures will end the game easily without a complete lock. To be fair, they're fairly amazing even with a single prison element and simply get the most out off your individual cards. Regard this little example:
We: First turn: Chalice@0, jugg.
Them: Land go.
We: Port, attack. (Upkeep tap land.) (Time Walk 1)
Them: Land go. (one U up.)
We: attack. drop sphere. (Time Walk 2) If they force: the better. (Upkeep tap land)
Them: Land (at best), go.
We: Use Port to tap down drain mana, attack. Any lock piece. Waste e.g. (Time Walk 3)
Them: Two lands in play. Every Spell costs one more to play. GG

Barring a force, this situation's pretty likely to occur. Pretty much every card in our deck becomes apparently a Time Walk. (Which is much more threatening since were beating their face.)
- One could of course drop an additional lock piece instead of a guy. But barring a Smokestack it would probably not be half as effective, right?
- Without a threat Port isn't nearly as good as above. But since one of the few strenghts MUD has, are his options regarding the mana base, using Port effectively could become one of the deck's goals.  (which could very well be the best land in this deck (except Shop and the 5 Wastes))

Therefore my suggestions are apparently:
- Use Port!
( - Use Null Rod! )
- Or in general: Don't produce bad stax lists being colorless for the sake of colorlessness. :/ The main goal of this thread must be (in my opinion) identify the strenghts of mono brown. Is it Worker? Ist it Tomb? Is it something different? I made a couple suggestions, enjoy.
- Phil

[orgcandman]

I like the look of it, but you're short 4 cards, im going to guess 4 Flooded Strand?

Thus far, there's no optimal cards for those 4 slots, which is why they're missing. What I last had in them were a transmute artifact, rack & ruin, pillar, and t-crypt. Go ahead and figure out what would be best suiting for your metagame.

Also, if you do test, you really need to learn when to try and go for the combo kills, or when to hold back. This isn't as simple as straight mono-brown beatz. You need to know a hell of a lot about the deck your opponent is playing.

That's about all I can tell you know without transposing like 5 notebook pages of notes, as well as about 150-200 test games (no sb was developed, and there are still 4 slots that are up in the air, so you can see my development hadn't finished).

-Aaron

[Kotch]

Hi everybody, this is my first post on TMD...  I'm a French Vintage player for at least 10 years and I know that my metagame is quite different from yours, but I wanted to have an advice from the American Vintage community about my last build.

Sorry for my bad English-writing!

Here is the deck I choosed to play in a small French tournament, in Annecy, on november 18th:

SLAVER MUD
Maindeck 60:
1 trinisphere
4 sphere of resistance
4 chalice of the void
4 tangle wire
4 smokestack
3 crucible of worlds
3 winter orb
2 icy manipulator
2 mindslaver
2 karn silver golem
4 metalworker
1 black lotus
5 moxen
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
1 strip mine
3 rishadan port
4 wasteland
1 tolarian academy
2 city of traitors
3 ancient tomb
4 mishra's workshop

Sideboard 15:
2 duplicant
2 triskelion
3 razormane masticore
4 jester's cap
4 orb of dreams

The deck was metagamed anti Combo-Control (this tournament allowed 12 proxies).
I lost 2-1 in Top 8 (6th place) versus a Merchant deck which killed me twice on turn 0 (Black lotus, LED, Ritual x2, D-Tutor > Yaygmoth's will, twice the same game!). I played against him in swiss rounds and I won easily 2-0... but in top 8 I lost the toss and he was very lucky!!!

I was thinking for a long time about a mono-brown deck that could abuse Rishadan Port and Winter Orb which both work well with Tangle and SoR. And mana accelerators such as Metalworker, Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors make the deck much more explosive than colored versions.

Icy Manipulator is amazing, even if people smile when they see it: it taps lands on upkeep, taps DSC, taps Winter Orb EOT and "stalls" the game. Just like Rishadan Port, which makes me gain enough time to find the lethal lock piece.

Winter Orb is a must-counter for Control decks, and even if it is useless against Combo, this matchup remains favorable thanks to CotV, SoR, 3Sphere... Winter Orb adds another lock piece, and with SoR, Tangle, Icy or Rishadan Port it becomes sooo powerfull! The symetrical effect never affected me, thanks to the numerous mana producers.

Mindslaver first seems too expensive, but is actually so easy to cast!!! even without Metalworker. It comboes perfectly with Smokestack, and even lonely it "steals" numerous games. 6 manas is quite cheap for this deck, especially because you want to cast it on turn 3-4, just after a smokestack for example!  , and the activation of 4 manas is easy with this mana base. I wished I had one more in my deck, to have it earlier in hand or to play it twice...

Karn is more powerfull in this version because it can be cast faster, and because the deck contains more artifacts, and bigger artifacts (Icy, Mindslaver).

CotV is sooo powerfull @1, because I only have Sol Ring and Mana Vault for 1CC. And @0 or 2 it is still good too!

Metalworker is amazing by giving easily 10 and more manas, and is also a good blocker versus Fish-like decks. Moreover, it is an alternative kill.

The sideboard is especially anti-aggro with 7 big creatures, 5 of them are unaffected by Null Rod. Duplicant is especially for oath which is much played in France. Orb of Dreams didn't convince me, because it improves a matchup which is already favorable (Combo). J-Cap versus Combo and Control decks.

Here are the modifications after the tournament:
MD:
+1 mindslaver
-1 winter orb
SB:
+1 winter orb
+3 sorrow's path
-4 orb of dreams

As you can see, 3 slots remain free in Sideboard. I don't know really if I should use them vs Control decks, considering that I don't see which are the cards that should be sided out, and I already get 1 Winter Orb and 4 J-Cap to side in...
I tried Defense Grid but I was not conviced, because SoR combined with R-Port make the same thing: playing around Counterspells.

Here is the new list:

Maindeck 60:
1 trinisphere
4 sphere of resistance
4 chalice of the void
4 tangle wire
4 smokestack
3 crucible of worlds
2 winter orb
2 icy manipulator
3 mindslaver
2 karn silver golem
4 metalworker
1 black lotus
5 moxen
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
1 strip mine
3 rishadan port
4 wasteland
1 tolarian academy
2 city of traitors
3 ancient tomb
4 mishra's workshop

Sideboard 15:
1 winter orb
2 duplicant
2 triskelion
3 razormane masticore
4 jester's cap
3 sorrow's path

Here are the sideboard tables, "grosso-modo":

Aggro:
+3 razormane masticore, +2 triskelion (+2 duplicant).
-4 sphere of resistance, -1 mindslaver (-2 mindslaver).

Combo:
+4 jester's cap.
-2 winter orb, -2 icy manipulator.

Prison:
+4 jester's cap, +3 razormane masticore, +2 triskelion, +2 duplicant.
-4 sphere of resistance, -4 tangle wire, -1 trinisphere, -2 winter orb.

Contrôle:
+1 winter orb, +4 jester's cap???
-1 crucible of worlds, -4 sphere of resistance???

So my problem vs Control deck is that I don't know what I should side out. Is siding out SoR a missplay, considering the mana denial that makes the deck? And vs some control decks, I can't even side out CoW!
Considering the lack of room, should I let the part vs Control decks away, counting only on 1 additionnal Winter Orb and 4 J-Cap, to improve the Aggro matchup or the Prison matchup, matchups that can be problematic for me?

To summarize, should the 3 Sorrow's Path slots be occupied by cards vs Control decks? vs Aggro decks? vs Prison decks?
And which cards are more appropriate to be sided in and out?

And vs Control decks, which cards should I side out, to side in 1 additionnal Winter Orb and 4 J-Cap?...

Here are some cards that might have a place in the side:
pithing needle
tormod's crypt
caltrops
eon hub
null brooch
staff of domination
juggernaut
sundering titan
mishra's factory
clockwork hydra
...

I'm waiting for your suggestions and for your opinion on the deck!
Anyway I enjoyed playing this deck, for its originality which surprises opponents (DSC? no, I don't concede and I cast Icy, and I win! And Mindslaver is sooo fun  ), and its competitivity.

Sorry for my bad english!

Kotch

[Thegreatgonzo]

I always have the same problem when building a mud deck : metalworker should be out, i think.

I go for the winter orb/tangle wire/rishadan port/ orb of dreams version of the deck, and the problem is that even if i have metal worker in hand, i don't play it. I prefer to drop a lock component on the board (smokestack, orb of dreams, sphere...)

first turn metal worker means : do as usual, just keep in mind that my turn 2 will be quite broken.  first turn sphere (or any lock component of the deck) means : don't combo me now, wait next turn, you'll see, it will be harder.

It's probably a playstyle preference, but i don't like the metal guy in prison decks. He's not a lock, he's not a clock. I finally cut them all for juggernauts (or jester's cap, depending on my mood), and i never looked back

by the way : winter orb is incredibly strong in this deck, and so is chalice for 1.
Rishadan port, in my opinion, is huge, because it keeps drain off line, and becomes some kind of strong lock with winter orb and resistor on board.

[Kotch]

I don't always play Metalworker turn 1, even if I have it in hand. I also prefer to play a lock component. But against Fish for example, if I don't get CoW in first hand, it can be a good play to preserve me from mana denial.
Moreover, I often play it only on turn 2-3 to be able to cast Mindslaver just after...

So I totally agree with you when you say that it's not a lock component and should'nt be systematically played on turn 1, but I think he's one of the Mono Brown deck's strenght. And he comboes so well with the whole deck, because he can remain your lonely mana source on board under Smokestack or W-Orb.

[WhiteWolf]

I have to agree that Winter Orb is very strong, especially against Control deck and especially with Tangle Wire. It seems somewhat of a forgotten card. I dropped Winter Orb when I started fiddling around with Null Rod but I’m trying them out again. It seems hard to incorporate Rod and Orb into one deck but probably very strong if it could succeed.The two-mana lands are indeed good with Winter Orb.

Yes, Chalice at 1 I feel is one of the big advantages of MUD. It doesn't do anything to you but seriously screws with most combo, control and Fish decks. For 5cStax this is much harder to pull off without hurting themselves.

In the sideboard I prefer Ensnaring Bridge over Duplicant. Most of the time they have a counter for your Duplicant while Bridge is cheaper to slip through the cracks. Bridge also disables weenie hordes. At the opportune time you could just sac it to Smokestack and go all in with Karn.

Koch, regarding your new list: I wouldn’t drop to only 2 Winter Orb. You don’t have any draw or search and the chances you see the Orbs when it matters become very slim. Maybe sometimes I go a little overboard with the rule but in MUD I prefer 4-ofs. Non-cumulative locks like Winter Orb or CoW could be cut to three but that’s a minimum I think. I like the list but would cut the 3 Slaver for a Winter Orb, a Karn and a CoW. The CoW is dependant on your metagame but in my Stax-dominated metagame it’s often a race of “who drops a CoW” first. I started with 0 CoW’s but changed my mind since then.

Is it really needed to side extra against Control? The deck is already very strong against them. I mostly focus my sideboard on Fish, Ichorid, Stax-mirror … You could add extra locks like Orb of Dreams but it’s very hard to side something out because your whole deck is already good against them. Spheres are probably the last things I would side out. They’re great to prevent stuff like Rebuild and Rack and Ruin.

I see you side out SoR against aggro but I'm always in doubt when doing that. On the one side the Spheres slow them down but on the other side they also slow your answers (Razormane, Triskelion, … ) down, especially when they have Wastelands.

Against prison Caps don't seem that strong. On the other hand, you have a lot to side out against them, so if you have the room it could be nice to grab their Welders or something.

Some nice sideboard cards include Damping Matrix / Cursed Totem (I wouldn't want to miss them in the mirror), Eon Hub (against Ichorid, Energy Flux, prison, Oath, ... ), ...

Regarding Metalworker: I agree wholeheartedly with Thegreatgonzo here. You always should go for a first-turn lock. When dropping Metalworker first turn, you give them a free turn to do their thing. Don’t get me wrong, Metalworker is essentially broken, especially in non-lock artifact decks like Cranial Clamp, and it isn’t bad in MUD but more in the mid-game to circumvent your own mana denial and make a lot of mana for Slaver, Karn, …

Lastly, some cards that I tested and found very good are:

Ghost Quarter: great against all non-basics deck and still decent against things with only 3 or so basics like Fish. Together with Winter Orb, Port is probably better.

Sculpting Steel: I was pleasantly surprised by this card. The options are endless. First it is GREAT to copy a Tangle Wire to buy some extra turns. Copying Spheres against Combo can be backbreaking. Also extra Smokestacks are nice against things like Fish. On a second level you can copy your opponents artifacts. “Steeling” a Colossus get’s countered a lot of course but it gives you a flexible main-deck answer against them. It’s also great in the mirror, more or less giving you 8 CoW’s against their 4. I urge you to try it out.

A card I had some problems with is strangely enough Meddling Mage. When they know your deck they put one on your win-condition and one on Smokestack for example. Very, very irritating when you miss some direct-damage artifact like Trisk or Razor. That's the only thing I like about UbaStax above MUD: not the Welders but the Barbarian Rings.

My current non-Rod and Rod lists are these:

MUD

3 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Triskelion

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Winter Orb
4 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack

1 Memory Jar

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Metalworker

Sideboard

4 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Damping Matrix
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Jester’s Cap


Null MUD

2 Clockwork Hydra

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Null Rod
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Sculpting Steel
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard

4 Damping Matrix
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Eon Hub
3 Razormane Masticore

WhiteWolf

[Kotch]

Whitewolf, I like your decks and your analysis a lot, especially about Sculpting Steel. I will try it!

Is Memory Jar really good? i would like to see your arguments...

Did you try Mindslaver in MUD? I think this card justifies Metalworker. Like I said in a previous post, I don't cast it on first turn if I can play a real lock component instead. But it becomes more powerfull with Mindslaver... so I would like your opinion about this card, if you tried it. I personnally find it so broken!!!

About the third W-Orb, I first played it maindeck instead of the 3rd Mindslaver. But I hated to have 2 of them in hand or in play, and I prefered a third Mindslaver. Moreover, Mindslaver and W-Orb are not comboing well without Icy, so I cut one of them and put it in the SB vs Control decks.

I think I will play more SB cards against Aggro. Like you said, there are so few cards to side out against Control decks.

Against Combo decks, I only see 4 cards to side out (W-Orb, Icy) so I think the best card to side in against Combo is J-Cap... Or what else could I side in better?

I used to play E-Bridge a lot especially in UbaStax, and I found it quite strong especially with BoB. But I'm not sure I can keep my hand empty quickly enough... and I prefer cards that give a card advantage rather than "stalling" the game : I prefer Triskelion or Masticore that kill creatures, rather than E-Bridge or Caltrops that just give some time until the opponent finds a solution.

Maybe I'll try again Tormod's crypt against Combo and Ichorid.

I also think I should have a third Triskelion SB, especially against Welder and Fish.

And I'll try Sculpting Steel, even if it is dependant of another artifact...

[madmanmike25]

Ah, so glad this thread came back to life.  I have still been testing my own mud deck and have found something interesting:  I took out the card draw(cloisters in my case) and didnt miss them one bit.  Having 4 additional lock-pieces/threats is awesome.  I see from latest decklists that no one else is missing the card draw i take it?

i have been leaning recently to the nullrod version though.  Naturally the are Sb'ed out vs oath or fish, but i still like them in the main.  I guess the all important question is, "Is metalworker better than nullrod in MUD?"  True, u can run caps/slaver/etc, but to me MUD appears to be a toss up between Rod or Worker.  To answer that u must assume a diverse meta and not take into account only the pros or cons in specific matchups.  (i.e. "All my opponents play fish, i think metalworker is better.")

Also, i still love orb of dreams maindecked.  Its essentially a time walk on the play, and i think MUD decks NEED to have very stong (read: disruptive) opening plays (as stated, metalworker is nice, but needs haste) Orb + wasteland = dead fetches.  But you can read my previous posts for that info.

@Whitewolf:  You dont think that 4 sculpting steels is too much?  I would prefer more STABLE disruption over copying an artifact that has to already be in play.
-Also, how has playing with rods AND spheres been? Seeing as metalworker is out in your rod build(naturally) do u ever get screwed with not enough mana?
-How are the factories working out for u? The seem like a great addition with the crucibles


A question: Does anyone side out spheres on the draw?  Assuming you arent playing against combo that is.

EDIT: @Kotch  How useful is sorrows path???

Keep the MUD slinging
mike

[WhiteWolf]

It's indeed nice to see this thread alive again. I believe their is still as lot that can be done with this archetype, especially Null Rod versions.

Kotch: In Metalworker versions Memory Jar is insanely strong. Disregarding extra lands you can almost always drop your entire new hand of seven. Just watch out for your opponents counters, Rebuilds, ... I mostly break the Jar when the opponent can't heavily profit from it, turning a soft lock into a hard lock.

I tried a Mindslaver/Jester's Cap/Staff of Domination version of MUD. You can find the list higher on this page. I called it "Dies-to-Null-Rod-deck". It was fun to test out but pretty random. A resolved and activated Slaver/Cap/Staff is game against a lot of the top decks but I couldn't pull it of with enough regularity and was of course very vulnerable to Null Rod. I agree however that Mindslaver is very strong. On the other hand, without a way of recurring it, isn't Cap just better for a lesser cost? Maybe weaker against aggro but stronger against Control and Combo.

I understand that you don't really want to see the Winter Orb outside of Control match-ups, but still only 2 copies seems pretty random when it matters. Remember that extra copies of non-cumulative locks are never dead with Karn on the table. I would play with at least 3 Worbs.

Siding against combo: maybe you could use Orb of Dreams instead of Caps. Orbs are also good against Ichorid (on the other hand, Capping 3 Ichorids is pretty good against the traditional versions). I haven't tested the Orb of Dreams thoroughly but madmanmike25 seems to really love them. They truly screw up fetchlands of course.

Bridge OR Razormane/Masticore: both have their advantages and disadvantages. Bridge is a lot cheaper, wich can be very relevant against things like Fish and Ichorid. Razor/Trisk are also handy in the mirror to pick of Welders and Heretics. Speaking of the mirror: don't you have a problem against them without Damping Matrix / Cursed Totem?

madmanmike25: I agree that card-draw doesn't seem really needed when you play a lot of locks. The bigger problem for me at the moment is finding the best win-condition for the Rod-versions (of course in Metalworker versions Karn and/or Triskelion are logical). At the moment I play Clockwork Hydra wich is pretty decent to take out Kataki, Confidant, Fish, ... Another strong option seems Razormane.

The biggest plus to me with the Null Rod version is the fact that Rod has a cheap cc of 2. You almost always have a combination of Rod/Chalice/Sphere in your opening hand so you can throw down at least one lock in the first turn despite their counter. Often two without an opposing counter. Rod complements Chalice and Sphere nicely. Less nice is that they can still tap their disabled moxen to Wire.

I would love to see your Null Rod version, especially because no one seems to play it that way. Could you post or pm it? I feel it's the better version against control and combo. The problem at the moment is finding the right win-condition. Factorys do a lot but something more is needed. You can create pretty hard locks with the Rod-version but without the proper win-condition you give them all the time to wriggle out of it. Ideally, it would have to be something not too expensive, quick and (very important) have a secondary function (lock, removal). If anyone has any ideas please tell me.

Speaking of Factorys: they have been great. They are primarily used to block and provide a steady (albeit sometimes too slow) kill.

I would have to try Orb of Dreams out. They are extra disrupt against control and combo and provide a maindeck "answer" against Dragon and Ichorid. I'm only a little afraid they would screw with my Waste-recurring too much. What would you cut for them? Sculpting Steel? and could you elaborate on Orb of Dream some more? Some concrete plusses?

Sculpting Steel has actually been very good. Maybe 4 is 1 or 2 too many although I very very rarely was without a target. Copying Spheres or Wires while munching their mana-base is great.

Rods and Spheres together: I was rarely mana-screwed. In matches were you expect opposing Wastelands, you drop CoW asap. In fact I often mull for it when I know what's coming. Ancient Tomb are truly great for this. I cut Crypt and Vault in my Rod-version because they do too much damage with only Smokestack to get rid of them and I always go for a quick Null Rod in most games.

Siding out Spheres: I don't think I would ever side them out against Control and Combo but in aggro-matches you often get screwed by your own Spheres when they have a Wasteland-heavy draw.

WhiteWolf