Ancestral Vision and Recoup?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Am I correct in saying that Recoup targetting Ancestral Vision lets you flash it back *for free*?

I could EASILY see a Madness/Threshold aggro-control variant running 4 of these (casting one turn 1 isn't really all that bad either) and 4 Recoup.

[SiegeX]

Sorry, doesn't work.  Here's why:

401.1b. A nonexistent mana cost can't be paid

In order for this to work the way you want it to, you would have to use:

Sins of the Past {4BB} |Sorcery| Until end of turn, you may play target instant or sorcery card in your graveyard without paying its mana cost. If that card would be put into your graveyard this turn, remove it from the game instead. Remove Sins of the Past from the game.

Note the part in bold that says you can play it without paying its mana cost.   Another way to make this work is if Recoup said you need only play its converted mana cost because cards with no mana cost have a CMC of 0.

[AmbivalentDuck]

A card with no mana cost HAS A CONVERTED MANA COST OF 0.  Recoup adds flashback and a flashback cost to the card it targets.

Recoup therefore gives the card flashback 0.  I'm pretty sure that part's right.

502.22a Flashback appears on some instants and sorceries. It represents two static abilities: one functions while the card is in a player's graveyard and the other functions while the card is on the stack. "Flashback [cost]" means "You may play this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost" and "If the flashback cost was paid, remove this card from the game instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack." Playing a spell using its flashback ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h.

And I think that means that flashback is an alternative cost and therefore circumvents the things with no cost can't be played provision.

Therefore, a Recouped Ancestral Vision would have flashback 0 and could be played for its flashback cost of 0.

[Nazdakka]

I don't think this works. Read Recoup closely - it says "...its flashback cost becomes equal to its mana cost...". That's different to the converted mana cost. Now, given that Ancestral Vision has a mana cost of {}, which cannot be paid, a Recouped Ancestral Vision will also have a flashback cost of {}, which you still can't pay.

Oracle Texts:
Recoup
1R
Sorcery
Target sorcery card in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn. If you play that card this turn, its flashback cost becomes equal to its mana cost as you play it.
Flashback 3R

Ancestral Vision
{ }
Sorcery
Ancestral Vision is blue.
Suspend 4—U
Target player draws three cards.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Looking at the Saviors of Kamigawa FAQ for Evermind (yes, I know the rules have changed...bear with me):

"If an effect needs to know the mana cost of Evermind, the mana cost is treated as 0. The converted mana cost is also treated as 0."

IFF that's still true, it should be Flashback and not Flashback {}, which can't be played as per the new rules.

So, the question is what Recoup finds when it looks for that mana cost.

[Harlequin]

Flash back cost, does not need to be a mana cost.  For example Cabal Therapy: Flashback -- Sacrifice a Creature, or Lava Dart: Flashback -- Sacrifice a Mountian.  When you recoup a spell, you recoup it for ALL of the spells costs, so for example, when you flash back say.. tinker it becomes "Flashback -- 2U, Sacrifice and Artifact"  and I think in the case of this card it would be "Flashback -- {}" 

If I remember correctly there is a card in the new set that gives other cards flashback.. so I'm sure it will be addressed by wizards soon enough.

[Pathian]

from the Time Spiral rules primer

These rules (213.1a and 401.1b, which are identical) will instead state that a nonexistent mana cost can't be paid.

You cannot pay Flashback {} because you cannot pay {} mana

Target sorcery card in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn. If you play that card this turn, its flashback cost becomes equal to its mana cost as you play it. (Mana cost includes color.)


Recoup looks for mana cost, not CMC. And it's been stated explicitly that while the CMC is 0, the mana cost is nonexistant and unpayable

Here is confirmation from Scott Marshall, Level 4 Judge, taken straight off the DCIJUDGE-L mailing list

> I had a bit of headache trying to figure out what happens with that interaction:
>   
<snip Wheel of Fate and Recoup text>
> But lately I thought that the wheel would gain a flashback cost of {},
> which can't be paid, so you wouldn't be able to play it.

That is correct, for exactly that reason.

With the cards that have no mana cost (including Evermind), it's
important to note whether an effect is looking for "mana cost" or
"converted mana cost".  In the former case, the mana cost is undefined
and can not be paid; in the latter case, the CMC is treated as zero.

EDIT: Added confirmation by Scott Marshall

[AmbivalentDuck]

With the cards that have no mana cost (including Evermind), it's
important to note whether an effect is looking for "mana cost" or
"converted mana cost".  In the former case, the mana cost is undefined
and can not be paid; in the latter case, the CMC is treated as zero.

That's exactly what's up for debate: does Recoup see or {}?

The Saviors FAQ says , and nothing seems to have changed since.  The Time Spiral FAQ does not say what value gets returned to effects that ask for a casting cost.  Everyone knows/agrees that for casting from any zone, the game sees {}; {} cannot be paid.  The question is what casting cost effects see and the last ruling available is from the Saviors FAQ.

Plus, the judge doesn't seem amazingly confident about his conclusion.  My thought is that someone at Wizards will need to make an arbitrary call that either does or doesn't update the Saviors FAQ.  For power level reasons, I hope this does not work.  This will break Extended and Legacy in half.  Fast red mana, threshold enablers (to get Wheel of Fate and Ancestral Vision in your graveyard), and Wheel of Fortune for 1R with Flashback 3R and red "tendrils", Charbelcher, or Goblins for the kill should be more than enough to break Extended.

[Apollyon]

Recoup gives it a flashback cost equal to it's mana cost. It doesn't have a mana cost, so it doesn't have a flashback cost.

And since you can't pay a cost that doesn't exist, you can't flash it back.

[Pathian]

With the cards that have no mana cost (including Evermind), it's
important to note whether an effect is looking for "mana cost" or
"converted mana cost".  In the former case, the mana cost is undefined
and can not be paid; in the latter case, the CMC is treated as zero.

That's exactly what's up for debate: does Recoup see or {}?

The Saviors FAQ says , and nothing seems to have changed since.  The Time Spiral FAQ does not say what value gets returned to effects that ask for a casting cost.  Everyone knows/agrees that for casting from any zone, the game sees {}; {} cannot be paid.  The question is what casting cost effects see and the last ruling available is from the Saviors FAQ.

Plus, the judge doesn't seem amazingly confident about his conclusion.  My thought is that someone at Wizards will need to make an arbitrary call that either does or doesn't update the Saviors FAQ.  For power level reasons, I hope this does not work.  This will break Extended and Legacy in half.  Fast red mana, threshold enablers (to get Wheel of Fate and Ancestral Vision in your graveyard), and Wheel of Fortune for 1R with Flashback 3R and red "tendrils", Charbelcher, or Goblins for the kill should be more than enough to break Extended.

Just to elaborate, lines preceded by the ">" symbol was something Scott Marshall quoted from the original thread which posted the question, not something he said himself. As for him not seeming confident about his conclusion, I don't see how you could possibly make that statement. The first thing he said was "That is correct, for exactly that reason." I don't think he can be more conclusive than that. If you were referring to the judge posing the initial question, it hardly matters how confident he is in his response as Scott told him straight up that his answer is completely correct. You can trust Scott's judgement as a level 4 judge, you don't get to that level without being a hardcore rules guru for a long time.

I'm not sure what this debate is still about. It's been confirmed that You can't flashback a suspend card without a mana cost from your graveyard using recoup because Recoup sees a mana cost of {}, not

EDIT: Changed to reflect Anusien's addition, thanks for correcting my oversight

[AmbivalentDuck]

"Just to elaborate, lines preceded by the ">" symbol was something Scott Marshall quoted from the original thread which posted the question, not something he said himself"

Sorry, that threw me off.  Point ceded.  *phew* Ok, so this is definitely an update to the Saviors FAQ.  Good to know.

I had assumed the ">" was the judge and what followed were your (Pathian's) conclusions.

[Anusien]

I'm not sure what this debate is still about. It's been confirmed that You can't flashback a suspend card without a mana cost from your graveyard using recoup because Recoup sees a mana cost of {}, not

Fixed slightly.