Optimizing Control Slaver in the Fall 2k6 metagame

[The Atog Lord]

While I have thusfar kept silent on this thread, seeing that it has continued for so long, I thought I would discuss the cards floating around herein. Some of the popular inclusions are frankly terrible in Control Slaver -- and I can say this because I have played this deck more than anyone else on the planet.

Crucible of Worlds is awful. Not, it isn't awful the way Tarpan would be, staring back at you while languishing in your hand. It's awful in the sense that it isn't worth the maindeck slot it devours. Crucible helps nothing in the very early game, when Control Slaver is most vulnerable. Crucible helps the most when the game is progressing into the late game -- the section of the game in which Control Slaver is stronger than any other deck in the format. In other words, it is at its best when Control Slaver least needs help.

Crucible has a few niche situations in which it is very nice. It can randomly Strip-Lock someone, if the stars align properly for this to occur. It can let you recover from wastelands. If, that is, Fish allows it to resolve and you have a fetchland in the yard and one-a-turn is enough for mana development. I'd still rather just answer Fish's nullrod than try to make my Island come back to me.

The worst argument in favor of Crucible is that it is good when you Gifts with an active Goblin Welder. That's like saying it has synergy with Yawgmoth's Bargain. You don't need cards that have synergy with a game you should already have won. As with the above sentiment, this is a textbook example of winning more.

I first included Citadel in Control Slaver long ago, when Keeper was still a part of the metagame. Crucible is great in that Gorilla Shaman can't touch it. It enables you to weld while laughing at the monkey. However, now that Null Rod is seeing more and more play, Citadel has gotten worse and worse and worse. I'm not saying it isn't playable -- but I'm saying that playing it requires a lot of thought about your metagame. I'm much more afraid of Null Rod than Shaman and I'd rather play cards that are good against Null Rod than cards aimed to beating a Shaman.

Tormod's Crypt. Yes, I like this card every bit as much today as I did when I first put it in the deck at the Origins before last. If anything, it has gotten better.

On the other hand, Cunning Wish's value has fallen. The metagame has changed. Times are faster than before. I know that my earlier lists had Cunning Wish in them, but I wouldn't include the card today. Games end far too quickly now for the additional 3 mana added to a solution to be viable.

Rolling Earthquake. When I first read about Brian including this in Slaver's sideboard, I thought he was joking. If you're only casting it for two, then Pyroclasm is strictly better. It costs one less and it doesn't deal damage to you. For larger numbers above two, you have an expensive card that damages you which you intend to cast against a deck aimed at cutting off your red supply while beating you through damage. To kill their two mana Jotun Grunt, this solution takes five mana and four life. At that rate, I'd much rather see an FTK. You might argue that you can't Burning Wish for an FTK. Not that I'd pay Burning Wish. But to do so would be to spend RR5 to remove a bear. I'd rather find something else to do with that mana. In other words, Rolling Earthquake is either a bad Pyroclasm, a bad FTK, or the worst Demonfire ever printed. And that says nothing of the fact that it won't save you at all from Guan-Yu, Sainted Warrior.

Caltrops: This is great against Ichorid until the oppoent realizes that his 37/36 Sutured Ghoul doesn't really mind taking a damage.

Finally, once more, let me state that the entire concept of creating an "optimal" Control Slaver deck is flawed. Control Slaver, because it relies on control elements to counter the opponent rather than spells which simply overwhelm the opponent, requires proper tuning for the metagame. Some cards are just good or bad in general -- but for the most part, Control Slaver rises and falls as a metagame-based deck. Thus there is no "optimal" Control Slaver list, nor has there ever been. There are instead only correct lists for specific tournaments with specific sets of expected decks.

[forests failed you]

In Response to Rich Shay's Comments:

I agree with your statement that Crucible of Worlds is not a strong early game card.   However, lately I've noticed that in spite of the fact that combo is floating around (and really presses Slaver's early game), most of my matches are ending up at around six or seven turns a piece.  The fact that games seem to be running longer, increases the potential for abusing a card like COW.  Don't forget that you can always pitch cards like COW or Darksteel Citadel to Thirst for Knowledge in the early game, and then weld them in later when you are trying to push Slaver's resource engine to the extreme.  Crucible is a tremendous resource that continues over the course of the game to ensure that you always hit a land drop.  In any control mirror, if you are able to resolve COW you will usually win, simply because you will be able to hit every land drop, and dictate when and where counter wars will be fought, and ensure that you win the battle for drain mana.

Perhaps the strongest arguement I can make in favor of both of these cards, is that if they are not in the deck you really deprive yourself of certain gameplans.  Against Stax, I really enjoy having a card to tutor up that lets me replay permenents and fight a war of attrition on the ground.  Against a Shaman, it is really nice to have Citadel in your deck to tutor for in order to get that all important Welder activation online.

I have been playing with Darksteel Citadel and COW for a very long time now and rarely cut them from my lists; in fact when I do cut them I usually regret it.

The other reason that I like COW is that it only costs three to cast.  Its a nice tempo drop off Drain mana, and it in many ways is a nice Welder target because it is out of Shaman range.  Not to mention that against any deck besides Tendrils, turn one COW is a very strong play.

Just my thoughts on the matter.  I think that Rich has a strong critique for the shortcommings of Crucible and Citadel; and I recognize that Slaver could easily exist without either in the Maindeck.  however, I think that the pros and advantages these cards offer more than make up for their drawbacks.

[Kirika]

Like I said earlier your list really is dependent on your metagame and you tweak it for that metagame.   Atog Lord is right there is no optimal list.

I do agree with ffy that Crucible is not that good early game but I been running it so long that I keep it.  Its good for the reasons mentioned against control to make land drops, to recur slaver, to get land back against stax.  I just like having a way to recur slaver or trisk so I keep it with the Citadel.  Shaman and Null rod are both played in aggro decks, Ankh Sligh, Red Green Beats, Stompy, Suicide Black, Zombies all are played.

If I were to drop Crucible and Citadel I would have to run Triskelavus or Pentavus to recur slaver and I don't like them that much because they are mana intensive to remove counters and Null Rod.

I think I might try and fit a Tormod's maindeck its pretty good against Ichorid and any deck packing Will but it does absolutely nothing against alot of the aggro decks I play at my local shop.  I do see some Null Rods too but Ankh Sligh and Red Green beats run Shaman.  No Proxy Unpowered metagame is much different then online or proxy tourneys.

[Windfall]

I guess I'm having a hard time figuring out why there is a debate here...

The metagame is simply what people are playing in your area.  Obviously, if you're playing in a small town with a bunch of scrubs, and the only expensive cards you see are basic lands covered in Sharpies, you're not going to be running certain cards maindeck...

...but in a real tourney, the field is full of many different decks.  Type 1 is different today than it was two years ago.  Years ago, you had the blue based control deck, and decks that sometimes beat that deck.  Now, there are so many different viable archetypes that Type 1 has become a format diverse enough to acknowledge running solutions in the maindeck, because if you don't, you will get random losses to that deck at any given event, assuming that event is large enough to host people of all styles.

SCG P9 tourneys are a classic example, but even local Mox tourneys provide a home for aggro, combo, prison, and control.  I haven't played a tourney without a little of everything in a long time.

If you don't have to worry about 2 or more of the archetypes, then of course you will argue that Slaver is a metagame dependant deck.  When you always have to have a plan for every archetype, however, you need to consider the fact that there is an ideal card for each of your 75 slots.  That's what we're looking for in this thread.  We want to beat up on everything, not just elves and Hypnotic Specters that 9 year olds play with at the local $3 vintage tourneys in the middle of Podunk, Idaho.

[The Atog Lord]

Windfall,

You describe a "metagame" in which there is a presence of every archetype. This "metagame" gives you a reasonable chance of seeing any and every sort of deck in the course of a tournament.

In this metagame, do not play Control Slaver.

A deck like Control Slaver is built to answer questions. However, given the limited amount of deckspace available, you cannot answer every possible question. Wrong Answers lead to dead cards in hand, and wasted spots in the main deck. Every maindeck answer you play is also a maindeck Tarpan against the wrong decks. If there is a metagame with great diversity, then you will find yourself in one of two situations with Control Slaver. Either your maindeck will lack what answers you need for any given match, or your maindeck will be bogged down with the wrong answers in too many matches.

My advice is to play Control Slaver when you can predict the metagame well. And to avoid it when you cannot. In a truly open metagame, as the one Windfall describes, play Gifts over Control Slaver. Gifts is faster than Control Slaver. This means that instead of being filled with Answers, Gifts is filled with Questions. Going on the age-old logic that there is no wrong question but many wrong answers, Gifts avoids being bogged down by not playing Answers and instead playing Questions.

And while a deck filled with Questions will often not do as well as a deck filled with correct Answers, it will do much better than a deck filled with Wrong answers.

That, Windfall, is why there is no good Control Slaver list for a very open, unpredictable metagame. When you lose Slaver's ability to respond to various metagame trends and expectations, you find yourself with a deck slower than Gifts without the usual potent responses which make it worth playing.

[forests failed you]

My playing of the deck has led me to the exact opposite conclusion.

Slaver is just a very flex deck in general.  It has the cards it needs to compete against any and all of the decks of a large tournament with a varied field.  The metagaming part of the deck is which cards you play in the maindeck and which you want in the sideboard.  In an open meta, I think Slaver has to be one of the top Metagame choices, much in the same way that one played Keeper in an unknown metagame several years ago.

I view Slaver as the new Keeper of the format.  It is the really good control deck that has a flexible plan for every match up.

[warble]

Wrong Answers lead to dead cards in hand, and wasted spots in the main deck.

My advice is to play Control Slaver when you can predict the metagame well. when you cannot, play Gifts over Control Slaver. Gifts is faster than Control Slaver.

I'm not sure I agree that Gifts would be ideal over something like Grim/Pitch Long or 5cSTAX.  Both decks have far more potent turn 1's, which I find to be extremely important when playing a diverse metagame.  If you're talking "what's the best I can do with r/u/b manabase" then yes...

As for your wrong answers lead to the conclusion that you're playing the wrong deck, in specific matchups that may be true, so on the whole your deck may have certain slots that are misused.  However, there is also a way to metagame CS for a diverse meta.  By including more tutors, increasing the control base and reducing the metagame slots you can reduce the risk of metagaming in CS.  Just because I believe there are 5-6 metagame slots doesn't mean players should utilize more than 2 metagame cards (answers) when a lack of knowledge can place a safe card such as mana leak or chain of vapor into the slot.  This is inherently improving certain matchups and weakening others the same way metagame cards would act, but the cards are never dead in any matchups.

There is no deck in existence that has no weak matchups, almost unwinnable matchups that you cannot hope to beat.  If you would have me believe that Gifts has less than CS, I would come back with the assumption that we don't know the metagame so how can we possibly make that conclusion.  I would never avoid CS because it's strength lies in the chained plays and combos placed into the deck and their synergy.  Gifts relies on one recursive combo with a deck full of enablers and protection, and one specific turn 2 play.  It is easy to win with CS after being jester's capped, and in many cases impossible with Gifts.

The statement "gifts is a deck full of questions" is false.  Gifts doesn't have a deck full of questions, it has two specific questions.  A CS build dedicated to beating a diverse metagame would be far more suitable to wear the cap of "a deck full of questions and answers" than gifts would be to don half of that.  The best description of Gifts I can come up with is "a deck full of recursion with 2 cards that are really friggin' important"  The recursion is very powerful, the protection is maxed for that amount of recursion, and it is extremely consistent.  Silver bullets against Gifts, however, are far more devestating than any single bullet can ever be to CS.  This is likely because many of the questions and answers from CS are the same, beating down with triskelion while shooting welders or utilizing pentavus as an answer instead of question.  It requires careful play with CS to find these answers, wriggle out of jams and beatdown with a welder for the final point of damage.  This forces your opponent to truly outplay you if the decks matchup evenly.  By comparison, playing against gifts with a hate deck or a deck with silver bullets is extraordinarily easy.  You manage to get one of those silver bullets through, and gifts is reduced to either one or no methods for winning the game.  Two bullets through and gifts should really scoop.  Gifts also has a hat on right now that says "metagame to beat the $&#% out of me" so if your argument would state that nobody is metagaming to beat gifts...well that won't fly...

CS is able to win with the same or less mana than gifts, but typically with less protection.  CS runs more ways to win, because it has more synergy than Gifts.  What CS does not do is answer everything, and that means every CS deck constructed has numerous weaknesses and weak matchups and almost unwinnable matchups.  You have really not shown any way to come from this observation to the conclusion that Gifts is stronger in an unpredictable metagame than CS.  Especially at a point when Gifts receives far more metagame attention than CS.

[Eandori]

I have to also disagree that slaver is a narrow metagame deck.  My findings are also exactly opposite.  Having said that, some of the slaver lists I see could easily be much more narrow.  Like lists where people run 2 shaman, and a Rack and Ruin main deck.  Or when people go for the Tendrils option instead of the standard slaver plan.  Those decks seem to be more narrow because they are specifically skewed towards a specific metagame.

Here's the list I run now, nearly unchanged for over a 1.5 years.

Spells 35
1   Time Walk
1   Ancestral Recall
4   Mana Drain
4   Force of Will
4   Brainstorm
4   Thirst for Knowledge
1   Tinker
1   Yawgmoth's Will
4   Goblin Welder (or 3 welder 1 shaman, depending on meta)
2   Mindslaver
1   Pentavus/Triskelevus
1   Platinum Angel
1   Crucible of Worlds
1   Cunning Wish (or echoing truth for some meta, I prefer this)
2   Gifts Ungiven
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor (no, not mystical.  Vamp is better for this list)
1   Fact or Fiction
   
Mana Sources 25
1   Library of Alexandria
1   Tolarian Academy
1   Black Lotus
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Emerald
1   Sol Ring
1   Mana Crypt
3   Flooded Strand
2   Polluted Delta
3   Volcanic Island
1   Tundra
2   Underground Sea
2   Island
1   Darksteel Citadel
1   Strip Mine

Sideboard
2   Swords to Plowshares
1   Burnout (or 1 more REB)
1   Red Elemental Blast
2   Pyroblast
2   Disenchant
1   Gorilla Shaman
1   Gifts Ungiven
3   Wasteland
1   Stifle/Trickbind
1   Triskelion/Sundering Titan/Darksteel Colossus

The main reason I really like this list is that it's proven itself to me over thousands of games against every archtype out there.  This deck has a game plan for everything, or the ability to work around anything.  There are a few slots I change based on the meta, but the standard list fits REALLY well when I don't know the meta in an area.

I posted nearly this exact list around a year ago and it was not liked at all.  People had all kinds of negative opinions about it, but since then I notice that more and more slaver builds are using the cards I was standing by (crucible, gifts, etc.)  It's very easy to play the deck incorrectly.  Aggresively casting thirsts into drains, gifting for the same 4 cards instead of the current optimal 4 cards, nailing an early slaver lock, playing the platinum angel to buy time for slaver lock or for distraction, Playing the Platinum Angel to live through Tendrils/Goblins/aggro etc.

I'm not trying to arrogantly claim that this list is optimal for slaver.  Of course I realize other builds will play better in other metas.  But I have not yet found a more well rounded Vintage decklist for the last 2 years.

[forests failed you]

If you are rocking a maindeck Tundra, why not find room for a Balance somewhere in the maindeck.  That card is nothing short of AWESOME.  Perhaps you could cut the second Gifts from the sideboard to make room for it?

this was my leet post!

[Eandori]

Trust me, I tested with that.  Balance is hugely powerful when used right.  I still believe it's the most powerful white card out there.

What I found was the situation was nearly never right for Balance, at least for my playstyle and the way I built my deck.  I try to have at least 1 welder on the board nearly all the time, because then every Gifts or Thrist is a serious threat to my opponent.  I also always want cards in hand, because slaver can definately play reactively at times.  So the only times balance would end up "balancing" in my favor, was when my opponent was way ahead with creatures/lands/cards in hand and if that was true, I probably already lost and my balance would not save me.

White is in there because I found Swords to just be an atom bomb at times (Dragon, Darksteel Colossus, etc).  Disenchant helps, but swords has been the real white all star for my build.  Adding white to my build is one of the things people hated the most about my decklist.  Admittedly, it seemed to be a questionable addition and it was until the crucible and gifts went in.  Main deck, there are 8 cards I can draw to get white mana (5 searches, 1 Tundra, mox pearl, lotus) So I suprisingly don't need much help getting white.

I also tested with Abeyance and Orim's chant for awhile.  Those ended up being good, especially with Isochron Scepter (which has definate synergy with thirst/drain/welder/ancestral/plow/REB etc.) But going that route I ended up playing too much control and had a hard time comboing out when it was needed.  The build I listed above changes gears from defensive to combo out into slaver lock on the turn of a dime.  Thanks to Gifts/will/demonic tutor/vampiric tutor/tinker/walk.

Again, I don't claim it to be the superior build.  I agree with others that there is no superior build.  But I can definately tell you that my list has tools for everything out there and I start with it when I don't know a meta and adjust with the cards I suggested from there.  It's been working great for me for 1.5 years now.

You guys rock, lots of great discussion in this thread.

[Kirika]

I've tested the white splash for balance and swords to plowshares and aura fracture side board back when I was still playing in a no proxy metagame against some diehard keeper players as well as aggro at Neutral Ground.   Its unfortunate that the type 1 community died there.   As a former keeper player,  I did like balance against aggro decks and aura fracture was awesome against problematic enchantments but if someone wastes your tundra it does kinda suck and having more then that one tundra hurts your mana base too much.  I usually do try and hold back fetching the tundra or playing it till I need white but sometimes that isn't possible.  I went back to the usual blue red with black splash and I do sort of miss Aura Fracture board and Swords though.  The White splash makes it feel alot like old style keeper though I played Platinum Angel back then too.

I'm actually trying to get my local shop to run proxy events.  A few of us have power but it would make things more interesting.

[Eandori]

I've tested the white splash for balance and swords to plowshares and aura fracture side board back when I was still playing in a no proxy metagame against some diehard keeper players as well as aggro at Neutral Ground.   Its unfortunate that the type 1 community died there.   As a former keeper player,  I did like balance against aggro decks and aura fracture was awesome against problematic enchantments but if someone wastes your tundra it does kinda suck and having more then that one tundra hurts your mana base too much.  I usually do try and hold back fetching the tundra or playing it till I need white but sometimes that isn't possible.  I went back to the usual blue red with black splash and I do sort of miss Aura Fracture board and Swords though.  The White splash makes it feel alot like old style keeper though I played Platinum Angel back then too.

I'm actually trying to get my local shop to run proxy events.  A few of us have power but it would make things more interesting.

That's the exact type of situation that Crucible is amazing at fixing. 

Yeah, I do love balance.  By the typical situation is this...

I have 1 welder on the board, 2 blue mana, 1-2 moxes, 4 cards in hand and my opponent and I are fighting for control so we can go broken.  If my opponent is playing Oath and pops out Akroma, balance will not save me because I have a welder.  If my opponent is playing stax, then most of his permanents are artifacts and he can topdeck more threats then me.  If my opponent is dragon then I'll end up losing my own welder probably cards from my hand, and he only needs 2 mana + a bazaar on the board to win.  If my opponent is gifts then I nearly for sure have a welder in play so all I'm going to effect really is hand size and if he has 7 cards to my 2, I'm pretty sure he will just counter the balance and smash me.  If my opponent is playing Tendrils, then I lose my welders for sure, probably tap out counterpower, and only knock 2-3 cards from his hand.

I cannot stress this enough... losing your 1 welder from the table is a huge problem.  That 1 welder turns every fact/gifts/thirst into a game winning potential bomb.  Especially since slaver lock with crucible only requires 1 welder and 4 mana.  You can work around losing a welder but your threat density goes WAY down.

I tried testing it for awhile with my build, it just never ended up being as powerful as I know balance can be.  Usually, it was a dead card anyways because I was either slightly ahead, slightly behind, or on par with my oppoenent and a sorcery with off-color was mana drain bait.  Swords was nearly always better.  Especially since I can cunning wish for it in game 1 if it's needed.

Disenchant nearly got cut from my sideboard MANY times.  Even today, I'm looking strongly at Krosan Grip.  Artifact removal is not enough, people sideboard way too much enchantment based hate for slaver.  (Choke, Ground Seal, Back to Basics, Planar Void, etc.)  Plus Disenchant hits artifcats and can also disrupt dragon combo etc.

I'm looking heavily at Trickbind now.  I may just yet find a slot for that card in the deck.  There's a LOT of stuff in Vintage that can be  shut down with it, and split second does amazing things to the metagame.

[Kirika]

thats another reason.  I really like crucible is if you have an active welder,  gifts or intuition is usually a win.  I do run crucible but you don't always have it when your tundra gets wasted.

balance is the awesome against non powered aggro decks and is pretty good at times against keeper.

Aura Fracture is awesome against multiple enchantment hate.  If people board in all that hate you should run it.  You do have to sack a land to destroy each enchantment but its better then being completely hosed.  It has been awesome for me since the keeper days.

I actually played Oath at the last local vintage tourney at my local shop cause Slaver isn't cutting it with sudden death to kill my platinum angel and all the hate lately.  I won a few times.

[Implacable]

Sudden Death is making appearances in your metagame?  What kind of jank is that?  Shouldn't you have no trouble beating Suicide Black?

[Kirika]

some keeper players play sudden death as does suicide black and blue black control.  Suicide black can come out of the gate pretty quick with a ritual draw and if you don't have answers or they discard the wrong things or destroy the wrong lands or get a null rod if you have lots of arti mana it can be good night.

[MaxxMatt]

I'm looking heavily at Trickbind now.  I may just yet find a slot for that card in the deck.  There's a LOT of stuff in Vintage that can be  shut down with it, and split second does amazing things to the metagame.

We are testing and proceeding to include Trickbind such as *powerful side tool* against specific decks ( Long, TPS, Fish and so on ) when we are able to chain them with Duresses or CotVs.

Duress on opponent's Duresses AND Trickbind force opponent to blindly try to kill you with Storm... and consequently fizzle.
CotVs@1 would virtually stop half of their deck AND they cannot check your hand for answers.

C-S worst matchup is ALWAYS Fast-Combo or Storm-Based decks, because of opponent's Duresses and their own inherent quickness.

Drain + FoW + CotV/Duress + Trickbind solved this problem for us.
You have an higher curve for your spells and you only have to protect alternatively CotVs or cards in your hand.

Splitsecond and Gifts are our ways to revamp C-S in our metagame, where Confidants.dec, Gifts.dec, Oath and Storm.dec almost totally shut them up since a while.


A good question to answer here could be:


Which other game situations do you fear with C-S at now?

and

How do you plan to win through them with it?


Maxx

[forests failed you]

Trickbind can't possibly be the best answer to storm combo for the following reasons. 

1.  It is completely situational, narrow, and is sucessful only if your opponent walks right into it.  Yes, if they try to go off and you have two mana up and can cast Trickbind it is pretty lucky; however, what are the chances that they have not Duressed or Swarmed you by the time they are going off.  I say, they are fairly slim.

2.  The main reason that I don't like the match up against fast combo isn't game one.  I like the way game one plays out.  And feel that Slaver has a very reasonable win percentage, especially if it wins the die roll.  However, game two they have Xantid Swarms, which are the best possible card combo can play against a Drain based deck.  The problem is that it forces Slaver to board in cards like Fire/Ice and Pyrite Spellbomb, merely to deal with the threat of Swarm.  Trickbind also is completely worthless once they have resolved a Swarm. 

3.  Trickbind does nothing if they have any sort of an alternate win condition like Tinker for DSC, Thrashing Wumpus, et cetera. 

IMO

Slaver is already a highly reactive deck, because it plays countermagic and answers to threats.  However, when I build Slaver I try to have as proactive of a list as is possible.  Tormod's Crypt is a good example of a proactive defensive card.  It is something that you do that they have to answer.  Also, cards like Duress and Mindtwist are good examples of proactive disruption that Slaver can play to apply pressure to Combo.  It is generally understood that if Combo doesn't win in the First four turns Slaver has most likely already won the game, since it can start playing its bombs at that point.  I try to board in cards that allow me to gain tempo and thus an advantage.  Duress is a good one, Crypt is a good one, Sphere of Resistence is a good one.  All of these cards are useful in combatting combo even if they manage to resolve thier best threat against you on the first turn.  Xantid Swarm. 

I have noticed from my testing that if a Tendrils deck doesn't have Swarm on the first turn my win percentage goes way up; and if they do have it my percentage goes way down.  Therefore, I don't want my sideboard plan to revolve around them not playing a swarm.

[MaxxMatt]

@about sideboarding strategies... to trickbind or not to trickbind, that is the question....


G2 and G3 ( playing my C-S list, you can read it some pages ago ) my moves are:

-4 Welders
-2/3 Overcosted or Slow Spells ( usually Mystical Tutor and Gifts Ungiven#3 )
+4 CotV
+2/3 Trickbind

I didn't tell you that is the best way to deal with Storm combo decks, but that aside from Duresses and ReBs, there are really few efficient ways to prevent them from killing you in some strange and hyperbolic sequences of spells.

Duresses, ReBs and T.Crypts do nothing against X.Swarms. If they are your worst nightmare ( such as mine, of course ), you have to proactively try to shut them out of the game. Duresses slow them down but Swarms would hit the board, ReBs do nothing against Rituals and Bargains, T.Crypts can stop only bad players from winning with Chain of Vapors or Rebuild or thousand of other complex ways.

ON THE OTHER HAND,  you only have to blindly pull out CotV@1 during your turn 1 or 2. It shut up both Duresses and Swarms, no real ways for them to bounce them back aside ONE H.Recall and ONE Rebuild, no quick mana accelerations and slower plays. Even if they play Swarms before CotV, it remain useful because it can slow down the game a lot!
Of course you need to bounce back or stifle them at some point, but with CotVs out, the game is pretty closer than you can think.
 
You would play as a Mono-U deck for almost the entire game and Tinker out something or win through Y.Will at some point.
They can't check your hand and Trickbind with mana open will be ALWAYS game over.


Two simple things.
CotV@1 first.
Since that time, Trickbind.

I'm not a *fan* of completeley reactive tools, but this deck can easily play around Combo Threats if those two spells are tutored or drawn.
Incidentally, your entire deck would not be slowed down at all ( aside BS and a couple of Restricted ).

Trickbind ALONE is usually as dead as you referred some lines ago, but Trickbind PLUS CotV@1 is PURE GOLD against any storm combo deck played at now.
If they are forced to pull out a differentway of winning, so... aren't you happier to have time to deal with creatures rather than having to battle uncounterable instant kills?

Here in Europe, almost ANY good not storm based deck would like to play CotV AT SOME  POINT.
This mood, usually prevent people from blindly pick up a combo deck and try to steal victories.
Our combo decks are usually well played and well built, almost thinking about the need of winning through Counters and CotVs.

I want to add that Duresses and ReBs and T.Crypts have been in my side for what seems forever SINCE Trickbind and WipeAway have been printed.

NOW, CotVs AND SplitSecond cards are going to be A NEW AND DIFFERENT way to deal with opponents with Duresses, when you can protect yourself long enough to win.

MaxxMatt

[Metman]

Each SB is genuinely unique as it should be, considering it is metagame dependent.  In addition Slaver is a metagame deck so expecting to build a lock and step SB based on other's lists is rediculious.  I am curious how some of you are sideboarding against the Pitch Long and Gifts matchup.  What do you expect them to bring in against you and how are you battling games two and three.  I am only familiar with playing against Pitch Long and only relatively familiar with Gifts.  Neither deck I am comfortable playing with though, and playing with the deck is how I typically learn to play against it.  Is it pretty standard for Pitch Long to bring in ESP and Swarms?  If so what are they taking out?  I would expect the opponent to bring in 3-4 of each but I have no idea what would be coming out.  If I'm assuming correctly is Darkblast a viable card any of you are siding in?  I also expect Long to be bringing in Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild to battle potential Spheres and Crypts as well as speeding up their combo.  By doing this I would assume that REB is stronger post board than it would be in the first game. 
Gifts I see as a bit easier a matchup but still not easy.  I feel that Gifts is easier to hate with Crypts and REB, but I have limited experience playing against strong Gifts players so I haven't the slightest idea what Gifts sides in against Slaver.  What are some of your plans from both sides of the table?

[Corvel]

I think that if your goal is a faster CS running a vamp tutor is important as it can help to find more things that say "i win now".   I also think a very important creature to run is trisk, he is strong against many decks and helps out alot with combos swarms. I would also run at least 3 welders seeing as they open up alot of potential if the game should go long.

[MaxxMatt]

Each SB is genuinely unique as it should be, considering it is metagame dependent.  In addition Slaver is a metagame deck so expecting to build a lock and step SB based on other's lists is rediculious. 

I'm not harsh, just curious.
I posted a list and a sideboard, long time ago in this thread.
I don't need any credit at all, but at least, I suspected to talk with people that try to read into my writings.
This is the list and this is the sideboard.

...Weld my Gifts, Baby...


(8)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

(14)
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

(10)
4 Goblin Welder
1 Sundering Titan
1 Crucible of the World
1 Stripmine
1 Triskel(ion)/(avus)
1 Jester's Cap
1 Mindslaver

(4)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

(24)
10 Mana Artifact
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Academy

(15) sideboard
4 CotV
3 R&R
3 Trickbind
3 Lava Dart
2 T.Crypt

All my previous reasoning would see his start on this list.
There are a lot of things to add, but at least you can see that build a *soft* lock isn't that ridiculous, especially if you can  play it safely.
My sideboard tecniques are dictated by my own intuitions about how a Storm.dec vs. C-S could be changed, if needed.

I can answer you a bit better now.

I am curious how some of you are sideboarding against the Pitch Long and Gifts matchup.

Those matchups are indeed really different.
CotVs aren't needed against Gifts ( IMHO ), but they are a must against Pitch-long, be it 2colors or 2.5 colors.

Against 2.5C-PitchLong, I would play differently.
On the play, I sideboard in Trickbinds and CotVs, siding out Welders and Gifts.
I play with the goal of putting out CotV@1 before anything else.
Then I proceed to build up mana, cards and protect CotV, especially if I hold Trickbind in hand.
They cannot play Xantid Swarms anymore and you would be able to build up your win and separately choose to win through Tinker for fatty or Y.Will.
I left in Mystical and Tinker and Trisk, because you can need this backup plan if you play first, they bounce CotV and play Xantid too.
On the draw, I sideboard in CotVs, Trickbinds and Darts ( for Weldrs, Gifts and 3 one of, especially Jester, Strip and/or CoW ).

This plan is really effective, especially because it don't crush your own sideboard to accomplish his goal.

T.Crypts are left in for Icorid and Dragon
R&R are left in for MW.decs
Darts would help you kill weenies and sometimes finish opponents.
CotVs are stellar against ANY deck you need to stall a bit more than usual. Especially Belcher, Storm.dec and some Low-Mana-Curve-Control decks.

This strategy is simple but, as I referred since now, really effective.
CotV@1 and CotV@0 can block almost 2/3 of any Storm.dec, leaving them with H.Recall and Rebuild as the only ways to get rid of them.
Since the CotV@1 hit the board, you need counters backup to protect itself and protect youself from opponent's win.
On this argument, Trickbind would cheat at them even more.
You could focus ONLY on protecting CotVs.
They would try to storm up and you would win, too

What do you expect them to bring in against you and how are you battling games two and three.  I am only familiar with playing against Pitch Long and only relatively familiar with Gifts. 
Neither deck I am comfortable playing with though, and playing with the deck is how I typically learn to play against it.  Is it pretty standard for Pitch Long to bring in ESP and Swarms?  If so what are they taking out?  I would expect the opponent to bring in 3-4 of each but I have no idea what would be coming out.  If I'm assuming correctly is Darkblast a viable card any of you are siding in? 

The 2.5Colored Version would use Xantid Swarms to power up control matchups.
A lot of Longs' opponents would kick them via T.Crypts, ReBs and Stifles.
Because of them, Xantid Swarms are perfect.

My sideboarding strategy annull their strength ( Swarms ) because you nullify them and even other cards.
They could[/b] bring in H.Recall to try to storm up more times or easier if needed, but if you bring CotVs in, they are forced to target you to get rid of them. If they blindly try to set up storm wins, you would punish them with Trickbind.
If they add Rebuilds, you would act as I suggested before. Protect your own CotV, draw cards and build strong and defensive hands. Your first threat would be lethal for him, because you stressed his deck too much to recover quickly.
As long as the match would go, you would start winning easier.

I also expect Long to be bringing in Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild to battle potential Spheres and Crypts as well as speeding up their combo.  By doing this I would assume that REB is stronger post board than it would be in the first game. 

I cannot have both ReBs and CotVs in my side, because I frequently play Chalices for 1. It is an universally strong choice a gainst a lot of decks, especially against decks that tend to abuse of low cc spells for removals, cheap drawers and additional sideboard cards ( ReBs, T.Crypt, BS, Duresses, Xantids, Critters and more ).

With CotVs out and Trickbinds ready to be played, I have to focus on H.Recall, Tinker and Rebuild.
Storm.dec usually have thousands of threats: this strategy reduce them to 3 single cards.

The rest of the deck can blindly win against 3-threats-decks

Gifts I see as a bit easier a matchup but still not easy.  I feel that Gifts is easier to hate with Crypts and REB, but I have limited experience playing against strong Gifts players so I haven't the slightest idea what Gifts sides in against Slaver.  What are some of your plans from both sides of the table?

Gifts would bring in ReBs, Duresses and maybe Needles or T.Crypts.
If they have S.Titan in side, they would swap it for DSC, because it can steal opponent's lands with ease.

I usually add those cards ( I'm referring to be MDG's player )

+1/2 ReB/Pyro
+1/2 Needle
+1 Duress
+1 Titan
-1 DSC
-1 Mystical
-1 Vamp
-1 Mis-D
-1 Gifts

They can add more ReBs if Duresses and Needles aren't an huge part of their sideboard's kernel.
4 ReBs are really huge against C-S.
If I notice or know about their moves, counting the number of cc1 additional spells, I can choose to add cotvs and loose some welders. You will play a total control role nullifing their additional weapons and killing them through counter wars and superior cards advantage.




With me piloting C-S, I really want to battle him on the draw-war side and nothing more.
My C-S build seems perfect to apply the needed pressure during both his EoT and my mainphase.
He can quickly combo me out but I can quickly abuse of Welders switches.
Welders would nullify Duresses on my artifacts and TFKs would resolve quicker than Gifts.
As much as I know this matchup, I want to side in fever cards than against PitchLong, because Gifts can switch from control-role to combo-role quickier and more effective than the latter.
I can't abuse of CotV@1 and Trickbind as much as against Long, so I abandoned this plan and add T.Crypts#1 instead of Triskelion. If opponent isn't as much smart as me, I would bring in event the T.Crypt#2 because I knew that he would abuse of Y.Will or Tinker as soon as he can. T.Crypts and Welders can take care of both of them.

Their storm generators aren't connected with something particular. They would Rebuild or Chain permanents back to their hands in order to make ToA more effective. If you kill their own Y.Will with T.Crypts, their chances to Recoup ToA back are fever. They would be fully stopped by Jester and temporarily by Titan and CoW. Those interaction become permanent with Welder in play and any one of your TFKs and Gifts would be a must counter or die.



Dark Confidants can be played in some *Dark-Gifts* builds.
I faced a lot of them and find them really nasty. They pack in 6 among Duresses and Confidants instead of full set of Merchants, Mis-Ds and Gifts ( usually 2, 0, 3 ).
Against them, playing Darts too would stop their additional draw engine and slow them down.


Maxx

[warble]

I posted a list and a sideboard, long time ago in this thread.
I don't need any credit at all, but at least, I suspected to talk with people that try to read into my writings.

Yes, and I immediately replied that your list has no board answers (not even echoing truth) so basically you're running suicide slaver with blue and red and splashed black (1 underground sea).  Your list is missing key parts of the control slaver plan, so there isn't any critique that I can give other than do something about that board or you're going to lose with this list, and fix the terrible mana base.

[Metman]

MaxxMatt, I like your SB plan to fight Long, but I tested Chalice and didn't like it in CS board.  I always felt that dropping it at zero and one is nice to shut them down but after that my plan is humped too.  So far I've liked Trickbind along with the ability to fight off Duress and Xantid to make it more powerful.  It's also been useful in the Oath and Gifts matchups as well.  My feel for the deck after siding in Trickbind is much the same as the old Monoblue list.  Every turn it seems that I draw something that will eventually stifle their plan or prolong the game until I get the upper hand in cards and resources. 

[Eandori]

Xantid Swarm can be a problem.  My build packs Trisk and StP to stop him.  I can cunning wish for StP to stop them in game 1 if I need to as well.  Maindeck Tundra baby!

For the record, my win percentage against Dragon with Swarms is really high (+85%).  I'd really like to claim that winning against a well built storm deck is consistent, but I think nearly anybody has to admit those matchups come down to how you drew, and how they drew.  I will say this though, beyond either one of us going broken on each other, I'd say my win percentage against well built storm decks is closer to 70%.

My decklist is posted earlier in this thread.

[forests failed you]

I posted a list and a sideboard, long time ago in this thread.
I don't need any credit at all, but at least, I suspected to talk with people that try to read into my writings.

Yes, and I immediately replied that your list has no board answers (not even echoing truth) so basically you're running suicide slaver with blue and red and splashed black (1 underground sea).  Your list is missing key parts of the control slaver plan, so there isn't any critique that I can give other than do something about that board or you're going to lose with this list, and fix the terrible mana base.

There is actually nothing wrong with that mana base.  He only has two black spells, and four sources of black mana, which is more than sufficient.  I have actually run an identical mana base before in some of my quirkier and more combo oriented Control Slaver builds.

However, I think that Maxxmatt's deck would greatly benefit from running a Recoup and a Burning Wish instead of FOF and one of the Robots.  With those two in the deck not only do you suddenly have answers to problematic threats like Chalice, Null Rod, and Meddling Mage on Goblin Welder... But also a really spicy time walk loop taht can be set up by Gifts.

[MaxxMatt]

@ffy & warble.

Of course that manabase is good, resilient and one of the best balanced things of the list.
It is not bullshit, but, as ffy stated, a matter of facts.

A few midgame off color cards and a lot of fetchlands would always let me grab the needed land.
There are basics a lot of fetches and the minimum number of dual lands needed to put out a quick Welder.
Vs. Artifacts.dec, they have to face Welders when I let them waste my first and last Volcanic Island, or truly find Stripmine quickly, in order to lock me down.
Vs. Fish.dec, I'm sure to pull out Volcanic Islands only if I can foresight a quick TFKs or Gifts switch the subsequent turn.

I fail to see how my mana base will be "terrible".
..."Terrible" can only be the "use" a player make of it...


@ffy
I tried both Recoup and B.Wish in the deck when BurningSlavery came out sometimes ago ( usually they were Welder#4 and Gifts#3 ) but the sinergy between Welders AND TFK/Gifts make me think that Welders themselves were my own Recoups.
I can't waste more space with pseudo-dead cards because I have a lot of them that need to be maindecked before Recoup ( full set of Welders, 4 or 5 artifacts' fatties ).

The last but not the least issue about Recoup's refusal is my playstile: when playing Gifts.dec, I almost never play the *classic* Gifts as first choice. That cards' configuration ( usually Lotus, Recoup, Y.Will another card ) usually come down to be better optimized by the second Gifts.
Because of Welders and because of the remaining cards into my CS-Slavery list, I prefer to play Gifts for pure cards' advantage or quick and lethal switches.

Recoup plan, while extraordinary strong in Gifts.dec, seems a bit conflictual with the other good opportunities of the deck, stealing space for possibly better and more consistent cards.

The same arguments can be applied to B.Wish, even if I missed this card far more than the latter.
On the other hand, I opted for an *almost-no-sorceries* sideboard, so the trouble derived by my choice has little to no impact onto the game.


@Changes on my list.
During my last tests, I have almost no trouble on pulling out shining victories.
On the other hand, I added a safer *reset-button* to maindeck, but I choose the one that would have affected the board *for sure* when tutored. Holding the only card that could save you and not being able to resolve them because of opponent's counters is really weird.
So I opted for WipeAway instead of other commonly maindeck choices such as E.Truth, R.River etc.etc.

This is the list as it appears now.

25x Mana Fonts ( 10 Artifacts, 3 Polluted Delta, 3 Flooded Strand, 3 Island, 3 Volcanic Island , 1 Underground Sea, 1 T. Academy, 1 Stripmine )
4x Force of Will, Mana Drain, Brainstorm, TFK, Goblin Welder
2x Gifts Ungiven
1x Fact of Fiction, Ancestral Recall, Wipe Away, Time Walk, Demonic Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, Sundering Titan, Crucible of the World, Duplicant, Jester's Cap, Mindslaver

15x Sideboard ( 4 CotV, 3 R&R, 3 Trickbind, 3 Lava Dart, 2 T.Crypt )


Gifts, Stax and Oath are balanced matchups, where opponents, skills and luck would be key factors when evaluating who is going to win.
Fast combo and fish can apply a lot of pressure because of their speed or their denial. Post side games see us better equipped to win against both of them.

Enjoy!
MaxxMatt