[deck discussion] Maindecking blasts in U/R Fish

[thedonuthole]

I was trying to think the other day about what most of the decks in the current meta game have in common and for some reason I started gearing towards color.So then I asked why shouldn't people be maindecking blasts and then sideboarding them out if the person does not play enough blue.  Obviously you would need a fairly competitive meta game in your area for maindeck blasts to be effective, but even if they only splash blue for ancestral this is one of the most common cards to be tutored for therefore they would be playing it more often. Not only do they stop ancestral but improve your mirror match tremendously. Here is my U/R Fish build

Mana (22)

4 mishra's factory
4 wasteland
4 volcanic island
2 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
2 island
2 shivan reef
1 Mox sapphire
1 Strip mine

Creatures (16)

4 grim lavamancer
2 mogg fanatic
3 ninja of the deep hours
3 goblin welder
4 cloud of faeries

Spells (22)
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time walk
4 Null Rod
1 Mystical tutor
3 Standstill
4 Force of will
2 stifle
2 daze

Some of the choices that are unique mogg fanatic, I put a few in for multiple reasons the synergy with ninja and its fast removal to take care of confidants/welders/ication javalineers all I would prefer to remove the turn they are played. Welder helps for artifact removal and synergy for ninja. (Another possibility I have not tested was gorilla shaman, this is mainly because i feel no need for a mox monkey with 4 null rods). The standstill's are great synergy with ninja and I do not feel they are overkill in the deck.  The area where I am the most unsure are the stifles I really like the versatility of them but feel as though it is ALWAYS the pitch card for FoW. My meta game is overrun with fish varients, the occasional oath, and a fair amount of gifts. 
I chose U/R over U/W because red has better hate cards (REB, pyroblast) and more importantly better artifact disruption (Welder, Rack and Ruin). I miss StP but feel if I were to try and splash white I would have to take out wasteland/strip mine.

Hello, and welcome to TMD. We do things differently here. We try to be more thorough and complete. If you post a decklist, we'd really like it if you could explain some of your choices, why you selected the cards you did, and why you believe that your deck is optimal. Further, knowing a bit more about your metagame helps all of us to udnerstand your deck and its role in a metagame. This helps us to understand your decisions and where you are coming from, and it helps you by allowing us to give you worthwhile feedback.

So, please use the edit button and flesh your post out a bit more.

Thanks!

-- TAL

[ErkBek]

I've found that the problem with maindecking REB's in UR fish is that they often times overkill your best matchup, Mana Drains, making your stax and oath matchups even worse. They are decent in the combo matchup.

Just some random critiques:

18 1 drops is bad times vs. chalice
18 Blue cards is a little low for fish
21 Mana Sources that's really low

I'd recommend the following changes

-2 Fanatic
-1 Rod
-2 REB
-1 Mystical Tutor
+2 Gorilla Shaman
+2 Mana Leak
+1 Strip Mine
+1 Mox Ruby

[thedonuthole]

Sorry I had forgotten to add the strip mine to the decklist! But as for the rod I like running four because though sometimes you might draw multiples its worth it so you start off more games with it in your hand.  I actually just started testing the fanatics and have found them extremely useful so I will continue to test them. The tutor is a possibility because of all of the other draw and would probably remove it with the 3 stifles.  I might try shamans but that doesnt double as a pitch card and would not improve my match against chalice. The reason why I haven't put any 2cc counters in here is because I usually am playing spells or attacking with mishra's and tapping out although I might try a couple echoing truths maindeck to improve against chalice.

[ErkBek]

2x Mox Monkey helps make up for the lose of a null rod. He also is a pre-emptive answer to chalice. I just don't understand the fanatics.

One thing that I've never liked about UR fish is I always feel like I'm always bending over to Yawgmoth's Will. Playing 4 maindeck Red Blast instead of Remand/Leak would make me feel even more like this.

I had a URB fish build about 4 months ago that I achieved some good success with (2 mox splits and 1 3rd/4th in 4 tournaments). The black splash was for dark confidant, duress, and sideboard planar void/shred memory. A slightly worse manabase seems worth the addition. There is a thread for the deck a few pages back that could be worth checking into.

Anyways, some info about your meta would be nice.

[thedonuthole]

As I stated in my original post I am playing in a very fish heavy environment. This would be a good explanation to why the fanatics are working well for me but since you seem extremely adament about gorilla shaman I will playtest a couple of them in the deck.  My main concern about gorilla shaman is them getting the chalice for 1 out before I get the monkey out. Even if i do get it out turn 1 and then they put out chalice I have to wait about 4 turns to kill it and that will slow me down as I only play one moxen.

[Moxlotus]

As I stated in my original post I am playing in a very fish heavy environment. This would be a good explanation to why the fanatics are working well for me but since you seem extremely adament about gorilla shaman I will playtest a couple of them in the deck.  My main concern about gorilla shaman is them getting the chalice for 1 out before I get the monkey out. Even if i do get it out turn 1 and then they put out chalice I have to wait about 4 turns to kill it and that will slow me down as I only play one moxen.

No you don't.  A Chalice in play has a converted casting cost of 0.  It takes 1 mana to eat Chalices.

[never]

I think Goblin Vandals would work better than Welders. The only thing welder can do that Vandal can't is deal with Darksteel Colossus, but anyone seeing a welder on the board is just going to wait until they can timewalk past your welder or kill it first, or simply not use black lotus or lotus petal, leaving you without the option to weld in the first place.

If you're really worried about artifacts, vandal lets you be more proactive, and lets you kill artifacts that gorilla shamen can't.

The problem with U/R fish is that your creatures offer no disruption and they are all tiny. But if you're playing in a field of Fish, it does give you access to direct damage AND you could bring in Flametongue Kavu from the sideboard (which slaver often uses to wreck fish).

[thedonuthole]

I think Goblin Vandals would work better than Welders. The only thing welder can do that Vandal can't is deal with Darksteel Colossus, but anyone seeing a welder on the board is just going to wait until they can timewalk past your welder or kill it first, or simply not use black lotus or lotus petal, leaving you without the option to weld in the first place.

the thing is though I only need a few turns to stall them from playing darksteel and the usual way people play it is with tinker so they are usually gonna have at least 1 artifact in the yard for me to weld darksteel with.  Also the thing about welder is if i go first turn volcanic welder a LOT of people force the welder cause they think im playing a welder variant.

[GUnit]

Unless your meta is comboless (I see you didn't mention combo in your original post) I really think you need the black or white splash for mages and maybe chants or duress/therapy/etc. Otherwise that match is going to be nigh unwinnable.

While I wouldn't run U/R myself, I have in the past run U/r/b, U/r/w and U/r/b/w in vintage tournaments, often with maindeck blasts, which I think are very solid slots in a stax light environment.

[wethepeople]

i have tried to make a URB Fish deck using Confidants, Duress, and Genju FTW. I may try out the deck again using Drains, FOF, and Scrying, and Drain also can give mana for Genju and possibly Mox Monkeys, depending on how i put the build together.

it doesnt seem like a bad idea, i really dont know why i gave up on it.

[thedonuthole]

i have tried to make a URB Fish deck using Confidants, Duress, and Genju FTW. I may try out the deck again using Drains, FOF, and Scrying, and Drain also can give mana for Genju and possibly Mox Monkeys, depending on how i put the build together.

it doesnt seem like a bad idea, i really dont know why i gave up on it.

Wow not a bad idea at all in fact you inspired me to start testing a URB fish deck I was thinking maybe something like this (I took a tangent off your idea and made it more of a fish variant)

Mana 23

4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
4 volcanic island
4 underground sea
2 island
1 library of alexandria
1 mox sapphire
1 mox ruby
1 mox jet
1 black lotus

Creatures (17)

2 grim lavamancer
4 gorilla shaman
3 ninja of the deep hours
4 cloud of faeries
4 dark confidant

draw/other (4)

1 ancestral recall
1 fact or fiction
1 vampiric tutor
1 time walk

Disruption (16)

3 chalice of the void
4 force of will
4 mana drain
3 duress
2 red elemental blast

First since i was switching to 3 colors i decided the wastelands had to go and decided to just go ahead and cut the strip for now. This coupled with the fact that I can utilize moxen much more with 3 colors and the addition of gorilla shaman I cut the null rods and decided chalice will do the trick. I feel the deck has a fairly spread mana cost and if it is in my opening hand much of the time I will most likely lay moxes and chalice for 0. Just an idea for a deck.

[Moxlotus]

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28184.0

That's URBana Fish, a deck very similar to the one you posted.  It has had great results when Becker played it.  You might want to check it out.

[thedonuthole]

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28184.0

That's URBana Fish, a deck very similar to the one you posted.  It has had great results when Becker played it.  You might want to check it out.

did he ever try out drains and have any success as i like the synergy with drain monkey/ninja/FoF.

[Moxlotus]

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28184.0

That's URBana Fish, a deck very similar to the one you posted.  It has had great results when Becker played it.  You might want to check it out.

did he ever try out drains and have any success as i like the synergy with drain monkey/ninja/FoF.

I do not believe he ever tried the Drains in the deck.  I'm pretty sure we talked him out of it.  I don't think he's played the deck since, after we talked him out of playing it at GenCon.  While the deck is really good, we all liked playing other decks and it was never really picked up by anyone outside the team.

[thedonuthole]

As im playing it on MWS its working it pretty nicely its just I think it needs a beefy creature for some speed. I was thinking maybe of putting a few flesh reavers in to fill the spot? and i think i may back off the chalice to 2 and put in another lavamancer to deal with welders and the such.

[ErkBek]

You should seriously just check out URBana fish. The deck is well tested and has really good matchups

tested
Gifts - 75-25 (I designed deck to crush gifts since gifts started to roll the IT metagame, I'm 5-0-1 vs. gifts in tournament play)
CS - 60-40 (This matchup is slightly favorable, it really depends on their build and there hand)
Uba - 50-50 (Maindeck Rack and Ruins really helps here)
Ichorid - 40-60 I'm 3-1 vs. ichorid in tournament play, but I largely relate that to playskill differences.
IT - 65-35 Game 1 is rough, but post board its tough to lose.
----
untested
Grim/Pitch Long - Grim is much easier than Pitch Long, but both are slightly favorable. As with any deck vs. long, you lose to the nuts. I don't really have any playtest numbers here.
5C Stax - I've never tested this matchup, nor played vs. it in tournaments, but its probably slightly unfavorable and very hand dependant. Do not over extend and die to balance.
UW fish - I think I'm 1-0 vs. fish in tournament play, again though this matchup is untested. They have more and bigger men plus they've got more maindeck removal. Winning the sideboard war is key though, you possibly will want to board out FoW's for some good stuff. 

[Imsomniac101]

I've found that the problem with maindecking REB's in UR fish is that they often times overkill your best matchup, Mana Drains, making your stax and oath matchups even worse. They are decent in the combo matchup.

Just some random critiques:

18 1 drops is bad times vs. chalice
18 Blue cards is a little low for fish
21 Mana Sources that's really low

I heavily disagree with the bolded statement. Imo, you should run as little mana as possible (as little as the meta allows; ie wastes, Stax and such). The reason being that you just want plain business most of the time.

Cloud of Faeries is a weak card, and should never be in a Fish deck.

If your meta is Fish heavy, then Lavamancer is MVP. REB's are also pretty good if the Fish variants in your meta are blue heavy obv. Wastes are also solid against the 3 colour versions and critical against anything running factories.

[ErkBek]

21 Mana Sources that's really low

I heavily disagree with the bolded statement. Imo, you should run as little mana as possible (as little as the meta allows; ie wastes, Stax and such). The reason being that you just want plain business most of the time.

If you are in a heavy fish metagame then your manabase is even more important, and thus should be stronger. I personally don't veiw wasteland as much of a manasource, its more of a disruption card. Lets look at this a little closer

5 Strips
4 Factories

1 Mox
11 Lands

That's only 12 on-color sources. So 1 in every 5 cards is an on-color producer, that's going to make a lot of unnecessary mulligans because of a shaky manabase. Now what if your opponent dare play wasteland. Often times you will be unable to back up your on-color source for a few turns until you happen to rip one off the top of your deck. Finally, this deck has the tendency to fetch out a volcanic to play a one mana red creature, you you will often times be open to wasteland.

In URBana fish I run 25 or 24 mana sources

5 strips
2 off color Mox
1 Lotus

3 on-color mox
14-15 on-color lands

I've found this mana base adequate for the extra demands of the additional color. I really hate losing to not having colored sources since I can't outplay my opponents without mana. Conversely, you can still outplay an opponent when you've got too many mana sources.

[AmbivalentDuck]

You should seriously just check out URBana fish. The deck is well tested and has really good matchups

You should seriously try just bringing 4x sets of 50-100 "Fish cards" to the tournament, scouting, then tossing together your deck and sideboard for the meta.

I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but Fish isn't a deck, it's a concept.  I personally think that it's the next-best concept in Magic after the "Long" concept.  Your goal with Fish is to play disruption with a built-in clock.  You disrupt your opponent turn after turn while the clock ticks until they die.  It's really that simple.  Now, in execution, it requires a bit of skill, but that's always the concept.  That's why Cloud of Faeries and Savannah Lions are so bad.

If you look at the most successful Fishy builds like Nicolo Fish and URBana, all of the clock creatures that aren't Dark Confidant are extremely disruptive to the metagame that they're built for.  And that's the key: metagame.  Nicolo puts up patchy results, so does URBana, so does any Fish LIST.  That doesn't change the fact that crushing hate is good and crushing hate with a built-in clock is even better.

Your ultimate goal then, is to quickly throw together the best package of clock-backed crushing hate that you can.  Now, obviously you should test packages like Sullivan Solution, URBana and Nicolo-Fish, but you should also test off the wall varieties including packages like Sui, Root Maze Stompy, RDW, and Cap Workshop aggro or cards like Hide//Seek, Jagged Poppet, Phyrexian Negator, Nezumi Shortfang, and Trygon Predator.  You should also test cards like Pygmy Hipo (sp?) so you understand why they're almost always bad as opposed to Negator which is occasionally AMAZING.

An expert metagamer familiar with the cards and how they interact should have a distinct advantage over any netdecked list.  That's what makes Fish fun.

[Imsomniac101]

AmbivalentDuck said:

That should be made scripture.

@kobefan:
I did not see the factories, which changes a lot.

[AmbivalentDuck]

AmbivalentDuck said:

That should be made scripture.

I didn't say anything particularly controversial.  There's a strong concensus that Fish (of any color or subconcept) has more metagame slots than...well...pretty much any other deck.  Referring someone who doesn't get that (as evidenced by Cloud of Faeries) to a particular decklist is counterproductive.  The fact that URBana Fish is a strong option in several current metagames doesn't change the fact that using it is suboptimal in the vast majority of past and future metagames.

Of course, this isn't helped by the fact that writing a good Fish primer is nearly impossible because it would basically be metagaming primer that happened to include currently useful card combinations (both of which change month-to-month). 

[ErkBek]

URBana fish remains the best underplayed deck in the format. Yesterday I went 6-0-2 in a field of 28 in Chicago with URBana fish against the following

2-0 UB Reanimator
2-1 Slaver with lots of fish hate mainboard and sideboard fish hate (Jesus Roxas)
2-1 Meandeck Gifts (Ben Roberts)
ID
ID

2-0 Counterbalance Aggro-control (Matt Morrison)
2-1 SS (David Carnhart)
2-0 URB Scepter Control with lots of fish hate (Tommy Kolowith)

My first round was a scary matchup, but playskill and waterfront bouncer saved the day. Other than that, I played against 5 great players that are all SCG t8 calliber, so this was by no means a fluke. However, I must say I played really really well on the day. Here was my maindeck.

URBana fish
Mana 25
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Usea
3 Volcanic
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus

Creatures 15
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Ninja
3 Waterfront Bouncer
4 Dark Confidant

Draw/stuff 3
1 Ancestral
1 BS
1 Time Walk

Disruption 17
4 FoW
3 Chalice
2 Daze
3 Remand
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Duress

The 3 maindeck blast were huge all day and the 2 Daze were very solid. I'm considering cutting 1 of the 2 maindeck islands for another Usea or fetchland, since stax continues to be on the demise.

So I've piloted this deck to

1 Time Walk
2 Mox Splits
1 Top 4 (involved a prize split)

all in 5 tournments.

[thedonuthole]

Have you considered going up to three duress? I have noticed they are almost always a nice card to draw and i feel are rarely a dissapointment. Why I wouldnt go four is simply random aggro, but again goes back to the metagame.

[ErkBek]

Have you considered going up to three duress? I have noticed they are almost always a nice card to draw and i feel are rarely a dissapointment. Why I wouldnt go four is simply random aggro, but again goes back to the metagame.

Yes. If you look in the old thread, you'll see I tried a build with 4 duress a while back. Duress is great and multiples are nice too, but the strain it puts on the manabase is rough. However, a brainstorm ofen times negate a duress and thus duress is much more useful on the play than it is on the draw.

Here is problem this deck is completely insane on the play. I feel like can't lose when on the play. Yesterday, I went 4-0 in games in which I went first.

I've carefully considered every card in the maindeck. People should stop suggesting changes, but instead try out the deck. Then after getting a feel for it, you could adjust the deck to your expected metagame.

[sa17dk]

Is there any particular reason why people prefer Pyroblast over REB?

How do you feel about the absence of the maindeck RnR?

[ErkBek]

Is there any particular reason why people prefer Pyroblast over REB?

How do you feel about the absence of the maindeck RnR?

I ran a mix of Pyroblast and REB to best get around meddling mage. I assume more people would name REB with a Mage than Pryoblast. Other than that, I rarely forsee the Misdirecting a Pryoblast from a blue permanent to a land ever coming up. 

I cut the maindeck Rack and Ruin and mystical for a few reasons.

1) Stax is quickly falling out of the metagame. Its down to about 15% here in the midwest.
2) After rethinking my games vs. stax, my loses have come from mana instability rather than permanent wars (that's partly why I run 25 mana sources). If I can produce threats then I've got a fighting shot. Dark confidant is often just as good as Rack + Ruin.
3) Rack and Ruin isn't nearly as strong if they've got a welder.
4) I can run 2-3 more efficient disruption spells like REB, duress, and Remand in their place. Even a brainstorm in there place is strong since it will help find more mana.   

[Kelme]

@Kobefan.

Now, this assumption is purely theoretical since I havent tested this build yet. I will soon though. My question is why only one Brainstorm? With all those fetches it would enable you to find pratically lots of useful cards?

[ErkBek]

@Kobefan.

Now, this assumption is purely theoretical since I havent tested this build yet. I will soon though. My question is why only one Brainstorm? With all those fetches it would enable you to find pratically lots of useful cards?

Great Question.

This deck heavily relies on drawing multiple cards a turn from Card Drawing men that come down early. Playing a turn 1 Brainstorm is not what the deck aims to do. Turn 1 I typically want to play a man or disruption card not a brainstorm. Think of it in this way, why does UR stax (with fetchlands) not play brainstorm? Beyond having trouble supporting its casting cost, stax has to do something proactive and play a threat on turn 1 whether it is welder or a prison component, otherwise the hand is probably a bad hand. Also brainstorm is just another card that gets hit by chalice for 1. Those principles apply here. This is a tempo deck and brainstorm doesn't actually immediately affect your opponent. As for 1 brainstorm, not 0, 2, 3, or 4 it's basically what I can fit. I'd definitely consider cutting it for a 4th Remand or other threat/disruption piece.

I was running 2 brainstorms and 3 Daze up until the night before the tournament. I did some testing with Jesus Roxas playing Slaver and found that another Red Blast was needed to help fight heavily metagamed slaver list like his. I felt like I never had a waste target unless he was already ahead in the game and he always had a solution to my threats. Something else needed. So I cut 1 Daze and a Brainstorm for another Remand and a Blast. Remand cantrips so it would help makeup for the loss of card draw and the lost daze didn't seem like a big deal, since Blast hits most of the same targets Daze typically hits (drain, gifts, BS, TFK, FoW, Mage, cutpurse). I'd recommend 2 Brainstorms if you're looking for more draw, but 2 is enough IMO.

[Kelme]

Yes, i like the card drawing engine alot. You run as many card drawers as the average control/combo deck. Also the argument you just gave was understandable. Also, this deck doesnt seem to have mana problems, however finding fow or chalice does seem necessary, but I trust your opinion here.

"This deck heavily relies on drawing multiple cards a turn from Card Drawing men that come down early. Playing a turn 1 Brainstorm is not what the deck aims to do. Turn 1 I typically want to play a man or disruption card not a brainstorm. Think of it in this way, why does UR stax (with fetchlands) not play brainstorm? Beyond having trouble supporting its casting cost, stax has to do something proactive and play a threat on turn 1 whether it is welder or a prison component, otherwise the hand is probably a bad hand. Also brainstorm is just another card that gets hit by chalice for 1. Those principles apply here. This is a tempo deck and brainstorm doesn't actually immediately affect your opponent. As for 1 brainstorm, not 0, 2, 3, or 4 it's basically what I can fit. I'd definitely consider cutting it for a 4th Remand or other threat/disruption piece."

This was very educatitional. Thanks, I will keep that in mind when testing it.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm asking this as a question, not suggesting a change.  Why Bouncer over Extract?

In my mind, both are sorceries that do the same thing in non-Fish matchups, except that Extract is more potent against Storm-based combo and Bouncer costs 1UU, two cards, and a turn.