U/R Tron

[Roxas]

As you IRCers know, I've been working on U/R Tron. Here's the list I have so far:

// Mana Sources
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Mine
4 Steam Vents
3 Shivan Reef
4 Island
4 Izzet Signet
2 Simic Signet

// Win Conditions
4 Bogardan Hellkite
2 Demonfire

// "The Package"
4 Spell Snare
4 Compulsive Research
2 Tidings

// Other Stuff
3 Wildfire
4 Mana Leak
4 Repeal
4 Remand

// SB:
4 Annex
4 Flashfreeze
4 Volcanic Hammer
3 Serrated Arrows

// Mana Sources
This should be pretty obvious. The most questionable choice I've made here is probably running only three Shivan Reefs, skipping the fourth for a fourth Island. This is mostly so that I more often have a painless source of blue mana against aggressive decks; every life point counts. By the time I can afford to cast the spells that cost RR, I've usually seen enough cards to generally have at least two ways to make red mana.

// Win Conditions
Demonfire shouldn't need much explanation; it's useful for its "just win" factor, and it can also be a removal spell in a pinch. Bogardan Hellkite is much better than Simic Sky Swallower because it can be played as an instant and allows for a more consistent mana base.

// "The Package"
These ten slots are the ones I am most unsure of at the moment. Before I discuss the various configurations I've been toying with, however, I will go over each of the draw spells I've considered.

Think Twice: I've been liking this quite a bit. While it doesn't generate a whole lot of card advantage (five does seem like a lot of mana for only two cards), this has been performing very well, allowing you to leave counter mana up and draw cards whenever you have the extra mana. Its biggest flaws are that it doesn't dig as deeply as other options, and is in the long run only +1 card advantage. Still, as I said before, it's been testing very well, and I like it a lot.

Compulsive Research: This is useful because it digs three cards down, getting you solutions that you need and helping assemble the Tron. However, being sorcery speed can be a liability sometimes. Still, the deck performs exceedingly well against other control either way, and that's really the only place in which being an instant helps more than a sorcery. I consider this and Think Twice to be very, very close to equal in this deck; I'm not really sure which of the two is better.

Tidings: Obviously very useful for refilling your hand in the mid-late game. Drawing four cards at once is extremely powerful. However, being a 3UU sorcery can be an even bigger liability in control mirrors than even Compulsive Research. I'm pretty sure the deck does need at least two mid-late game draw spells, though, and this is probably the best one.

Whispers of the Muse: This competes with Tidings as a two-of for the "mid-late game refills" slot. Its most powerful asset is that it is an instant; in a drawn-out control battle, you can keep casting this at the end of the opponent's turn; they can either choose to be outdrawn, counter it, or try to cast something like Teferi. No matter what they choose, you are the better for it - you will have an opening during your main phase during which you can cast something big like a Wildfire or a Hellkite. It also "cycles" early. The problem is that, of course, one card for six mana isn't exactly the greatest deal in the world.

Careful Consideration: The idea behind trying this card was to be a happy medium between the advantages and drawbacks of Whispers of the Muse and Tidings. However, I've found it to be fairly inadequate, as it doesn't play either role well enough and generates, at most, only +1 card advantage.

Ancestral Vision: This has been nothing short of awful. Sure, it's decent if it's in your opening hand and you cast it on turn one, but under any other circumstance, the fact that you have to wait four turns to draw the card makes this pretty crappy.

Okay, so back to the "packages." The one listed above is the one I've played with the most, and it's worked fairly well. As a reminder:

4 Electrolyze
4 Think Twice
2 Whispers of the Muse

I've experienced a few major problems with this configuration. First off, it's fairly weak on the draw against aggro decks. All of these cards are instants, which make it probably the most effective possible configuration against other control decks, but that probably isn't what the States metagame is going to look like. Another problem is that, while Electrolyze is a potential three-for-one, there are a large number of threats it doesn't deal with: Soltari Priest, Paladin en-Vec, Kird Ape, Scab-clan Mauler, Call of the Herd tokens, Ohran Viper, and so forth. Also, Think Twice rarely gets cast on turn two against aggro decks, because that is almost always spent either on keeping mana open to counter or Repeal threats, or to drop a Signet in order to accelerate towards Wildfire.

4 Volcanic Hammer
4 Compulsive Research
2 Tidings

My first attempt to fix some of these problems was to replace the Electrolyzes with the Volcanic Hammers out of the sideboard; while they don't cantrip, they can take down Kird Apes or Maulers that come down before your counterwall is up. To make up for the loss of Electrolyze's cantrippy nature, I replaced Think Twice and Whispers of the Muse with more immediately card-advantageous draw. While this build was much more successful against aggro strategies, the control matchup was no longer an auto-win with the now-dead Volcanic Hammers that don't even "cycle" and a draw engine that lends itself to lost counter wars.

4 Spell Snare
4 Compulsive Research
2 Tidings

Then I remembered that Spell Snare not only addresses problems like Soltari Priest and Scab-clan Mauler, but it also helps you win counter wars over the clunky sorcery-speed draw. I haven't been able to try this configuration as much as the other ones yet, but it feels like the best one from the little that I have toyed with it. This happens to make Dragonstorm combo an even better matchup too.

// Other Stuff
Most of this should be pretty self-explanatory. Repeal is amazing against aggro, obviously. There are also all kinds of neat tricks you can do with this, like bouncing Izzet Signet to generate extra red mana when you have infinite Tron pieces but not enough red sources, or making an effort to shut off Sacred Mesa. Wildfire and Remand need no explanation. I'm not too sure about Mana Leak or Rune Snag, but right now I feel that Leak is the right call, as if the game reaches a stage in which the opponent can pay for their threats *and* for Mana Leak, you should be more than far enough ahead to not really care. Still, running Snag is still perfectly reasonable and could be the right call.

// SB
Annex wins control mirrors. It might become Avalanche Riders, but I'm not sure on that one yet. Flashfreeze handles everything from burn spells to Dragonstorm/Enduring Renewal combo to U/g aggro, making it a good investment in sideboard slots. It's also better than Spell Snare against red decks for game two or three if you're on the play. Volcanic Hammer is good against Viper, Finkel, Kird Ape, Mauler, Predator, and Serra Avenger. Seems good. Serrated Arrows may or may not be better than Electrolyze for taking down decks with lots of X/1s, so this last slot's going to need some testing; I'm leaning towards Arrows right now because it nails those pesky Soltari Priests, and you can cast it pre-Wildfire and use it to take guys down post-Wildfire.

Well, anyone have any thoughts/comments?

[T00L]

I like serrated arrows just so this hilarious scenario can take place.

Soltari Priest: I have a crush on every boy!
Me: Arrowed!!
Soltari Priest: Ah! my skin!

[tehmajickguy]

I've found in my testing that the U/R/g build is better than the straight U/R tron builds. You basically trade off a little mana consistancy for a ridiculous threat in Simic Sky Swallower. In a format where Sacred Mesa has the potential to be huge, trample has been very important. In addition, Mortify, Putrefy, and Condemn all see a lot of play; all of which don't touch SSS at all. For a basic reference heres the list I've been working on:

4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Steam Vents
3 Breeding Pool
3 Shivan Reef
1 Island

4 Izzet Signet
3 Simic SIgnet

3 Simic Sky Swallower
2 Bogarden Hellkite

4 Mana Leak
4 Remand
3 Spell Snare

4 Compulsive Research
2 Tidings
3 Repeal
3 Wildfire
2 Demonfire

SB:

4 Annex
4 Volcanic Hammer
4 Giant Soilfuge
3 Open Slots

I'm not gonna claim the list is optimal, but its been pretty damn good.

[Anusien]

SSS seems really bad.  It's like you're giving up a huge advantage in Control mirrors since they can just Wrath him away, where Hellkite beats for 10 and is a better threat.

[Roxas]

Right. SSS also sucks when you're at two life and your opponent has two or more creatures on the board. SSS also does not give you the "combo win out of nowhere" of EOT Hellkite, untap, swing, Demonfire. As I mentioned above, it also fucks up your mana base; those extra two or three life points you'll be paying matter a LOT against aggro decks.

[Liek]

themajickguy: You must must must must play four Repeals. This deck would play 10 of them if it could.

Simic Sky Swallower dies to 2 spells people play: Wrath of God, and Cruel Edict (and possible Akroma, Angel of Wrath, but whatever, nothing can fight that, Keiga rotated.) Control plays Wrath of God, and the plan in that matchup is to win with Demonfire. RB Burn aggro plays Edicts, but the main way to win that matchup is to destroy all of thier permanents.

Basically, my point is that Simic Sky Swallower, if played correctly, is invincible. The Hellkite dies to a lot more than those two cards, and can be targetted by random cards like Glare of Subdual.

Anyways, nobody has mentioned the best card in the new set for Tron, Spell Burst. Buyback counterspells are insane. This card ensures that aggro decks won't resolve spells once you've Tron'd up. Random Chars off the top of thier deck will be answered. It counters Lotuses and Visions for just a U (or U3 with Buyback.) Insane.

I'm playing Rune Snag over Mana Leak. I'm pretty sure it's better. The first one may look weak, but the key is to just use the first one on the first spell they play (I mean, the first spell they cast that can be countered by it, even if it's something random or silly.)

I'm not really happy with the Spell Snares in this deck. I tested them extensively around Regionals, and our list ended up without them (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/11995.html .) This States format is different than that format, but if Spell Snares were't good enough in the Umezawa's Jitte format, I can't see them being good enough in this format.

[Roxas]

Things Hellkite can do that Simic Sky Swallower can't:

1) It can be played as an instant. SSS requires you to tap out in your own main phase, which is bad.
2) Its comes-into-play ability can cllear the board when you're low on life and your opponent has multiple creatures in play.
3) You can play it at the end of your opponent's turn.
4) As I mentioned earlier, end the game before the opponent gets another turn in tandem with Demonfire. This matters against Dragonstorm combo and decks that play Soltari Priest.
5) It's an instant, so it can be played in response to a control player tapping out for something irrelevant like Teferi.
6) As I mentioned above, Simic Sky Swallower costs green mana; Bogardan Hellkite doesn't. This matters a LOT - even with my current configuration, I sometimes have trouble getting RR in time to Wildfire when I want to. I don't want to compound this problem and take even more mana base damage just to run a win condition that's worse anyway.
7) Bogardan Hellkite can be played at instant speed.
8) IT HAS FLASH.

The only real advantage that SSS has over Hellkite is the ability to block Paladin en-Vec. Seriously though, who wastes time blocking with their huge guy?

Concerning Spell Burst, I've never had any trouble at all winning when games go long enough for me to get enough mana to buy it back. The problem is, more often, surviving long enough to get a complete Tron, cast Wildfire, and so forth.  Spell Snare helps both in this respect and in winning counter wars against other control decks. Seems better than a spell that's only good when I'm already winning.

I, too, now agree that Rune Snag is probably better than Mana Leak. This is especially true in control mirrors, where often you will be able to pay for larger Snags and the opponent can't.

[Liek]

I get it, it has Flash. Seven of your eight points can be learned by reading the card.

Let's be fair here, SSS has many more than one advantage over the Dragon. Reading the card reveals that it is a 6/6, and can't be killed by random removal spells that everybody always has in thier hand. Even after the dragon deals 5 to stuff, it still dies to whatever removal they have, and they always have a ton since Tron doesn't give the opponent many targets to point it at.

About Spell Burst: It lets you use all of the mana you otherwise wouldn't get to use, and counters all of the random spells aggro decks topdeck in the mid-late game. It creates inevitability. It makes mana-heavy draws good.

If you still don't believe me about it, the next time you playtest with some people try playing 2 of them. If you still don't like it, I'll shut up about it.

[Roxas]

Being a 6/6 is actually pretty irrelevant; both will usually kill in three swings (SSS because people will generally have taken damage from a dual/painland, and Hellkite has its CIP damage), and both are far bigger than most creatures that people actually play nowadays (except for Akroma, which both lose to equally hard).

To be honest though, I am still tinkering with builds running a SSS/Hellkite split, because I've often found that UG is often actually easier to cast than RR. I still wish there was a six-mana drop like Keiga, but the closest things I've found are Draining Whelk and Cerulean Sphinx, and both seem pretty bad.

The biggest problem I've been experiencing with the deck is the huge gap between "counter all the opponent's shit" and "cast seven and eight mana spells." I find myself often lacking meaningful plays after running out of counters and draw but before being able to afford SSS, Hellkite, and/or lethal Demonfire. Again, this was the sort of role that Keiga used to play, but he's rotating and there's nothing obvious with which to fill the gap.

[UR]

So stop trying to counter all of the opponents stuff and just counter the relevant stuff. I know that sounds kinda obvious, but you really want your stuff to resolve because your stuff is just better than theirs. Use your counters to set up a gameplan, not to destroy your opponent's gameplan because yours is usually superior.

[Roxas]

After a lot of testing, I am finding the deck's performance against aggro decks to be unsatisfactory. Any ideas as to how one might fix this? I've tried all sorts of stuff and am pretty much clueless at this point.

[Disburden]

If you're having trouble casting a threat earlier than SSS; have you tried Clockwork Hydra?
He is non-color, can be cast off tron alone and can handle creature combat fairly well until you get Simic Sky swallower out (or Demonfire). I have been using him lately, and even though he isn't a Keiga, I like it.

[freakish777]

I have to agree with Liek on Spellburst.  Why play with Tidings when I can play with Spellbusrt?  Tap 3UU in my main to draw 4?  No thanks.  Pay 6U to counter Char and get Spellburst back (when I have the tron together)?  Pay 7U to counter Heirarch and get it back?  Yes please.  Pay U to counter Visions or Lotus (in the control/combo match)?  Sign me up.

Spell Snare should stay in for the reasons Roxas outlined.  2 Spellbursts should go in for the reasons Liek outlined.  I'm not convinced Tidings is a "good card" post rotation.  3UU at sorcery speed is not something I want to be tapping mana for in a control deck.

[Disburden]

I've actually been using one Hellkite, one Clockwork Hydra and two SSS in the deck. It's pretty good. What do you guys think about it since there is a debate on the win condition.

Also, more importantly,imo:

I'm confused about why no one wants to run Whispers of the Muse in this deck. I know compulsive Research is a staple in Standard right now, but how does it benefit this deck over an instant drawer that costs 1 in the early game and lets you leave mana open on your mainphase for bombs?

The way I see Tron, it's a typical control deck. I don't see any combo with Compulsive Research in this deck, like it works in Solar Flare or Vore decks. Compulsive Research in this deck is like running Thirst for Knowledge in Vintage without anything to abuse it with like Goblin Welder (like Gifts Ungiven decks). It's just nonsensical, imo. It's just here to draw cards. How is discarding lands to this spell better than using Whispers of the Muse when you're supposed to be building Urzatron fast? Doesn't discarding lands stop this from happening quickly? Doesn't tapping out on your turn suck when you have things to do?

If you use Whispers of the Muse as a Four-of, like in Standard of old, wouldn't it just do better in this deck than Research? You play a land turn one, pass. You play it and draw a card on their EOT. Compulsive Research would do nothing here. Matter of fact it would do nothing until you had three mana, and then wouldn't you have something to do by then? Also why run Whispers as a two of, because it's only good with Buyback? I don't think that's the truth about this card. It's good period, then it gets better later on in the game with tron lands. I also don't see the reason to run Two-ofs in decks, period. This might be why I don't like that idea.

I also like the idea of Think Twice over C. Research,  but isn't Whispers just better a card?

 I'm new to Standard, so maybe I'm wrong, but I don't feel amazed by Research in this deck, especially after testing Magnivore for the past two weeks. I found this a curious thing and would like anyone of you to comment. Like I said, I am new to Standard, so maybe I missed something.

[Roxas]

First of all, my most recent list; after like infinite testing, I'm pretty happy with this build and am almost certainly bringing it to States.

4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Mine
4 Steam Vents
4 Shivan Reef
3 Island
4 Izzet Signet
1 Prismatic Lens
2 Foriysian Totem

3 Bogardan Hellkite
2 Demonfire

4 Spell Snare
4 Rune Snag
4 Remand
4 Repeal
3 Wildfire
4 Compulsive Research
2 Tidings

SB:
4 Annex
4 Volcanic Hammer
2 Govern the Guildless
5 OPEN

SSS is horrible. It's completely worthless against Akroma, where Hellkite would still deal five to the dome (along with its obvious Flash benefits). SSS also screws up the mana base. Clockwork Hydra's all right, but isn't quite big enough to be useful.

This deck likes Compulsive Research because it digs three cards down to assemble your Tron pieces or fill your hand with counters.  Discarding  land to Research usually isn't a problem because you will often find yourself drawing lands more quickly than you can play them anyway. Whispers of the Muse only digs one down, and you will rarely be able to take advantage of the buyback in matchups that aren't already skewed heavily in your favor. Think Twice is better than Whispers because it digs two cards for five mana instead of seven, but is still worse than Compulsive Research.

Keep in mind that while Tron is a control deck, it isn't necessarily a reactive control deck. Think of it the same way you would think of Control Slaver in Vintage - it tries to actively take control of the game; it does this with cards like Wildfire and other huge overcosted threats.

[wraith985]

Unless I can find some Flagstones of Trokair for non-retarded prices (unlikely), I'll probably be bringing this to Champs:

4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Steam Vents
4 Shivan Reef
3 Snow-Covered Island
4 Izzet Signet
2 Simic Signet/Prismatic Lens (undecided)

3 Bogardan Hellkite
2 Draining Whelk

3 Spell Snare
4 Rune Snag
4 Remand
4 Repeal

4 Compulsive Research
2 Tidings
3 Wildfire
2 Demonfire

SB:
4 Annex (I can't find Annex #4, so this will be 3 Annex 1 Avalanche Riders IRL)
4 Volcanic Hammer
2 Govern the Guildless
2 Pyroclasm
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Burst
1 Whispers of the Muse

The sideboard should be pretty self-explanatory. Hammers come in against Zoo and U/G, Pyroclasms come in against Boros, B/W, and other random aggro. The extra Spell Snare generally comes in for aggro as well. 4 Annex, 2 Govern the Guildless, 1 Spell Burst, and 1 Whispers of the Muse is the package that (hopefully) utterly destroys any control deck post-board; we can ditch various things, from Repeal to Spell Snare to Remand to Draining Whelk. I'm worried about Dragonstorm a bit, but anything I bring in just loses the sideboard war to Gigadrowse...so I guess I just have to control the game and hit Hellkite + swing + Demonfire pretty fast.

Whispers is pretty bad in this deck because cantripping off it early doesn't do what you want. Tron wants to dig for Tron parts and such, and it's even more imperative that it be able to find them (or answers) quickly against aggro. It's not like you can cantrip, find a land, and call it a day - Tron works off three very specific lands, so Whispers just doesn't cut it here. There's one in my board to bring against control, because it's hard for any deck to stop you once you're controlling the game and drawing two cards every turn with almost no risk involved, sculpting a perfect hand to destroy your opponent through whatever control he's trying to muster. Whispers just isn't very good in the aggro matchup, and at least from what I've seen that's the one that you really want to nail down.

[Liek]

Both of these lists lose to Dragonstorm. Niether have Spell Burst maindeck, and niether have Trickbind in the board. This matchup cannot be ignored, and is fairly easy to sideboard for.

[Roxas]

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but you are completely wrong and clearly have not played the matchup very much. If you live long enough to Wildfire, you generally beat Dragonstorm; this is not difficult if your hand contains two or more counters. Repealing their Lotus Bloom during the upkeep is a crushing blow unless they happened to draw three or more Seething Songs and/or Rites of Flame, and even then they still need to win through counters. Sideboarding cards like Trickbind and Shadow of Doubt is completely worthless, because neither answers Gigadrowse. Against Dragonstorm, you sideboard into Annex and possibly Govern the Guildless. It's not an auto-win by any means, but it is quite far from an auto-loss, and Trickbind will help very little to not at all.

[Liek]

I've tested the format for four weeks+, including extensive pre and post board between Tron and Dragonstorm (both URG Tron and UR Tron.)

Trickbind counters Gigadrowse's Replicate trigger.

Seriously, you think Remand, Spell Snare, and Rune Snag can stop Rite of Flame and Seething Song from resolving? Unless you have the nuts (turn 4 end step Dragon with Spell Snare for thier Remand, untap Wildfire) they will have a long time to cantrip away and make an amazing hand that can definetly shrug off Tron's light permission spells.

[Roxas]

So the plan is... to Trickbind their Gigadrowse and then watch them untap and go off? Doesn't seem like the best plan to me.

Remand and Rune Snag don't keep Rite of Flame and Seething Song from resolving, but they do help stop the Dragonstorm player from reaching the nine mana they need to win the game. Also, again, the plan isn't to sit behind your counter wall forever (because you obviously can't); your counters are there to help you live long enough to cast Wildfire, and recover from it faster since your deck has 29 permanent mana sources and theirs has twenty-one or so. Annex furthers this game plan, and isn't a dead sideboard card for other matchups like Trickbind is.

[Anusien]

Remanding a Seething Song requires them to be able to make 12 mana to go off instead of 9.  That's significant, and if you can counter it the second time through they need to be able to make 15 mana.

[wraith985]

This deck is so good...and I'm so bad...

That's what happens when you get 1 hour of sleep before a tournament, after coming from a club party drunk.

Word to the wise - don't mull to 5 on the play when your opponent has turn 1 Lions, turn 2 Might of Old Krosa, turn 3 dork + burn. It's bad for you.

EDIT: I remembered the exact sequence. It was: Turn 1 Lions, Turn 2 Might of Old Krosa swing for 6, suspend rift bolt. Turn 3 resolve Rift Bolt, swing with Lions, Char EOT. Yeah, I lost that one.

[injectilio]

Why is no one trying Draining Whelks here? They seem to me amazingly good against everything but Dragonstorm.

[Roxas]

If you check out my report thread, I ran it there. It was indeed quite good, and I'm glad I made that last-minute change.

[Disburden]

I was recently playing around with a straight UR version of tron. I used a 2.2 set of Whelks and Hellkites as creatures along with two Demonfire. Then I stumbled across this list that Evan "MisterOrange" Erwin recently posted on "the Magic Show" (#14 for Reference). I find it curious that no one has posted this list or discussed it yet, but maybe it's because Champs is done. This is a list that Evan Buckner played in Tennessee's Champs and made it into the top 4.


Academy/Trisk Tron:
(61 Cards)

2 Triskelavus

2 Careful Consideration
4 Compulsive Research
1 demon fire
4 Remand
1 Spellburst
3 SpellSnare
3 Wild Fire
4 Mana Leak
4 Repeal
2 Electrolyze

4 Izzet Signet
3 Foriysian Totem

12 Tron lands
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Urza's Factory
2 Academy Ruins
4 Steam Vents
4 Shivan Reef

Sideboard:

3 Jester's Cap
4 Bottled Gnomes
3 Pyroclasm
2 Commandeer
2 Confiscate
1 Demonfire


Now looking at the list, right away we can all see there needs to be tighter tweaking of the deck. 61 cards is just never right, imo, for any decklist in a constructed format. I would also cut the two electrolyze and add the second Demonfire to the maindeck. Also Uzra's Factory might just be better as an Island. With thos things aside, I would like to hear what all of you have to say about the list. It did make a Top 8 at Champs and is one of the most unique and senergistic lists I have seen in some time. Is the combo with Ruins and Trisk better than just running Hellkites and Drains on a stick? Has anyone tested this list yet? The ability to reuse Jester's Cap against a lot of decks seems really good also. Or was Evan Bucker just tricked into "The Danger of Doing Cool Things"?

[Roxas]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/fk15

I told you all it was good.