[New Deck: Welder goes fishing]

[Guli]

Let me first start with some of the things i like about Welder. I know most of you guys already know these things and they are basic knowlegde. I still think i am looking at the subject from a different angle. I am a fish player, and i think it is time to take the next step in the aggro control archetype. What IS the best 1 drop and what is the BEST 2 drop or drops in vintage. For me the answer is Welder and the 2 drop depends on the 1 drop and the deck build. So i will create a fish deck with the best 1 drop available. That is the main idea and the deck name says enough.

Welder's utilities

1.Welder is the ideal 1 drop to counter Tinker/DC wich is a problem for Fish.
2.Welder generates mana. For example a mox in grave and sol ring on board will give you 3 mana/turn. You can always get back your lotus when you need the mana. This ability is also used in belcher.
3.Welder is powerfull against deck that also use Welders. So Welder is good against Welder
4.Welder can get in big fat artifacts than can win you the game. (is also mana basicly you are changing a mox for a duplicant or something)
5.Welder works well with Gorilla Shaman wich will be included in the deck aswell
6.Welder is a 1 drop that can be used to cast Ninja of the Deepest hour.

When i cast a Stormscape Apprentice i feel good. I have a permanent that can deal with Tinker/DC. I can also tap oath creatures. However i also have the feeling i just casted a 1/1 creature that won't do that much. And we all know stopping an oath deck isn't really about tapping the fatties. You have to target the oath especially in SideBoard.

When i cast a Welder i don't feel good i feel potential. Your opponent will go to red alert and this could lead to mistakes. The powerlevel of Welder simply is higher than any other 1 drop in Vintage. I can feel that and there is a reason why i have this sence. Welder simply is the best 1 drop that you can get.

I already mentioned using Ninja because i will play with 6-7 1 drops. I would like to have a 4-2 or 4-3 configuration. I prefer 4-2 because Shaman isn't as strong as the Welder but because of the fact that these 2 red 1 drops were born to figh side by side it makes Shaman a 5 star creature choice in this deck. The reason i only want 2 will become clear later on. And i will only use 3 Ninja anyway. The reason why will become clear later on (yes again)

The deck has the strongest draw engine in Vintage. And it generates massive amounts of card advantage. I will now write down the draw engine so you can all say 'wow, arent you doing overkill?' and i will also explain the next creature i will use after that.

Ancestral Recall
Brainstorm
Accumulated Knowlegde
Thirst for Knowlegde
Deep Analysis
Ninja of the Deep Hours
Bazaar of Baghdad

I immediatly thought about what i should do with all the cards. I thought about psychatog but i don't want to add black. I said the deck generates a lot card advantage but i didn't mean it was only the draw engine. I want to use a new tech which we all heard of. It has flashback. And i want to use cards with flashback because they are simply card advantage. Ok so with all this draw and card advantage what will i do? We all know the tog concept. Convert those cards into damage. Well there is another creature that does this and it is cheaper. Wild Mongrel. It fits the deck because it gives you the ability to discard card in your hand like Bazaar does and TFK does. This is important for the flashback cards and welder. And to be honost when Mongrel hits the table it is game over in 2 turns. I will do at least 9-10 damage in 1 swing with him in this deck if he isnt blocked and im going for the win. This equals a clock wich every fish deck needs. But not every fish deck has creatures that have multiple tasking. Mostly fish creatures are strong combined but they are each only a part of the bigger disruption and they don't really have that much synergy with the rest of your deck. Welder and Mongrel are good for several reasons in my deck.
There is another creature that i will add and that is ofcourse Squee, Goblin Nabob. very normal choice because of Bazaar/TFK/Mongrel.

The kill condition is still attacking and winning like a standard fish deck. But you naturally want to cast a Mongrel and swing your way into victory rapidly.

I am not going to inculde stuff like basking rootwalla because even if they are good for 0 mana. Because they will not do anything to affect the board or assist you in your gameplan.

It is basicly a Blue/Red fish with 4 green cards main and then ofcourse the flashback of Ancient Grudge. In sideboard there is the borther Ray of Revelation to take out oath or leyline.

The sideboard is directed to oath and ichorid.

4 Duplicant (oath,fish,welder)
4 Ray of Revelation (oath,leyline)
1 Ancient Grudge (workshop,stax)
2 Tundra (need to adapt mana base for Ray of Revelation)
4 Tormod's crypt (With Shaman and Ancient Grudge you can take out chalice@0 and Crypt combined with welder is simply devestating grave hate)

note: I don't want to use Leyline so i am using 4 Tormod's crypt. They will basicly come in against any deck that uses the graveyard as a big resource pile in order to win or generate a huge advantage and i can use them a couple of times with Welder online.

My first list was using Intuition and Quiet Speculation. But it simply (and strangely) slowed me down. I found out that the deck generates so many card advantage that you don't need to get the cards you need you will most likely find them. Nevertheles i added 1 mystical to get that Time Walk or Ancestrall or anything i need man  I will most likely draw the card even if i play mystical main phase.

There is a lot of mana denial packed. The only concern is i don't run waste/strip. But i think it is compensated for a bit with the artifact (mox) hate.

here is the list, i suggest to really test the deck before making any statements or comments. I also realize some of the card choices are not new. But that doesn't mean i didn't come up with something unique.

Welder goes Fishing ²⁰⁰⁶  by Guli_TMD




// Lands

    1 Island
    1 Mountain
    3 Wooded Foothills
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Volcanic Island
    2 Taiga
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Sol Ring

// Creatures

    4 Wild Mongrel
    4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
    4 Goblin Welder
    2 Gorilla Shaman
    3 Ninja of the Deep Hours

// Spells

    1 Ancestral Recall
    4 Force of Will
    3 Brainstorm
    4 Accumulated Knowledge
    2 Ancient Grudge
    1 Time Walk
    3 Deep Analysis
    3 Thirst for Knowledge
    1 Mystical Tutor

// Sideboard

1 Ancient Grudge
4 Ray of Revelation
2 Tundra
4 Duplicant
4 Tormod's Crypt

I hope you enjoyed reading this little article

[Moxlotus]

Your disruption against storm decks is a whopping 4 force of wills.  How do you expect not to get blown out of the water?

Your deck also looks like a tempo black hole if SoR comes down.  You have no real way to deal with a turn 1 SoR.

I really think your deck suffers from a symptom that Goth Slaver suffered from.  You spend all of your mana drawing cards and none of your mana actually doing anything to end the game.

Have you tested the deck at all?

[Demonic Attorney]

Moved to Improvement.

-DA

[Guli]

I am sick of this. I invested a lot time and thought and testing before i made this thread. I see decks that are worthless being posted in the open forum and they somehow don't get moved. This is a real disappointment for me. I am posting here for over a year reading every thread.

Force
Artifact hate
A sideboard with 4 crypt
An immense draw engine

I will find the seccond force very fast while i disrupt your mana base. I don't think you realize how fast it can go. Playtest it.

To Demonic Attorney, if you got nothing better to do than moving threads around please don't. At least have some patience and give the thread TIME. You can't do this every time i post something. I am really tired of it.

This post violates Rule 5, Unnecessary Whining and Rule 6, Prohibited Action (Complaints about moderation).  However, because I'm such a nice guy underneath it all, I'm only going ask that you use the PM function to air these complaints in the future and issue a verbal warning.  See my PM for direct responses to your concerns raised in this post.

-DA

[Slack]

I wouldn't take it personally that your thread was moved to this forum.  The Vintage Improvement Forum was not created in order to insult decks.  People will be just as able to give input on your deck here as in the other forum.

With that said, I think that MoxLotus has a point.  Your game against storm combo is a little weak.  I played combo for a while and typically you don't care if your opponent draws cards as long as they don't draw any cards that stop you.

With no intuition, the Accumulated knowledge draw engine is only so so.  With intuition it needs an inappropriate amount of mana early on for too little of an effect and uses up (usually 7) a lot of slots.  You want to be casting creatures with your mana, not drawing creatures you won't cast.  You already have a lot of other draw spells so I don't think that losing the AK's will hurt you too much.  In their place you could add chalice of the void since that would help you against combo.

It also might not be a bad idea to try to squeeze another basic into your mana base so you don't get owned by a wasteland heavy draw on your opponent's part.

Lastly I would suggest adding a fourth brainstorm.  If you run them and your mana base can support it then you should be running 4.

[Phele]

I'm sorry to say so: But I don't get the inclusion of Welder at all. I count a total amount of five artifacts in your maindeck, all mana producing jewelry. So you need a Mox in your grave to produce any kind of use for the Welder out of your own deck, which is "just" mana producing. For me this doesn't make enough sense. When you want to utilize Welder as a plan against Staxx, Tinker, whatever artifact, it should strictly be a sideboard weapon. And even then I would hardly question this choice over other options. Please ellaborate the inclusion of Welder a littel bit more.

[President Skroob]

I'm sorry to say so: But I don't get the inclusion of Welder at all. I count a total amount of five artifacts in your maindeck, all mana producing jewelry. So you need a Mox in your grave to produce any kind of use for the Welder out of your own deck, which is "just" mana producing. For me this doesn't make enough sense. When you want to utilize Welder as a plan against Staxx, Tinker, whatever artifact, it should strictly be a sideboard weapon. And even then I would hardly question this choice over other options. Please ellaborate the inclusion of Welder a littel bit more.

I was pretty much thinking the same thing when I looked at the list. You play Welder, but you have zero Welder tricks of your own. Certainly he can be used offensively on the opponent, but not in all cases. I would think that there are other 1 drops that will provide more utility than Welder in a wider variety of cases unless you also can utilize him for personal purposes as well as playing with opposing artifacts.

[Guli]

Why do people include stormscape apprentice?

[Pathian]

Why do people include stormscape apprentice?

Mostly for the reasons you stated, tapping DSC, tapping Oath guys, he's also a house in the mirror and vs Ichorid. In a more standard fish build (UW, UWb), he doesn't strain the manabase the way splashing welder would. He's also blue, which means he pitches to Force. In addition, in more specific builds, he's a prime candidate to turn into a ninja, he's a wizard that sacs to Kai to hard counter things, and his second ability isn't always entirely irrelevant.

[Guli]

I have enough pitch for force. Go ahead waste my mana and leave my bazaar alive. People are use to abuse welder with his 'tricks' but they forget it can be used for other things aswell. And in my sideboard i have Duplicant wich will lead into welder tricks.

[Guli]

And frankly i dont care for this topic anymore. I did replace those accu's for misdirections though. It will improve the combo matchup.

[GrandpaBelcher]

You know what's really cool to have in your graveyard when you have Wild Mongrel, Welder and some artifacts out?  Memory Jar.  +14/+14 anyone?  It's at instant speed!

Ancient Grudge should be really good for you--I like the look of that card.  

Accumulated Knowledge seems weak, though.  The second one is good, but what do you do with the first one?  Pitch it to Mongrel for a temporary and insignificant power boost, or cast it to draw a card inefficiently?  I'd drop them for a good toolbox of artifacts.  Squee seems weak as well.  The only thing you pitch him to is Mongrel, right?  And to fuel up your Bazaars?  And he's slow for that; you won't win games any faster because you have Squee.  Maybe try something like Trinket Mage, so you get better access to your artifacts.  Bazaar doesn't seem like your proper draw engine either, especially because it eats up your land drops when you're running three colors.  It does have some synergy, but your Welder tricks aren't good enough to make it worthwhile at this point.  If you want to play like Fish, you need to draw threats constantly and be able to use them, not dump them in the graveyard.  Try the fourth Thirst for Knowledge for selective discard, then maybe add Tinker because I hear that has some powerful uses, and some more artifact goodness.

Your sideboard seems more like where this deck should be going.  Quality answers like Duplican and Crypt should be in your main deck so you can take advantage of them more often.

I played a deck very similar to this for a while and enjoyed its ability to do broken things with Jar, Nev's Disk, and other artifacts.  I even had Wild Mongrel in it (though I maybe should have used Aquamoeba to stay two colors). Your list makes me want to revisit it.

Toolbox Artifacts to Consider:
Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives, Chalice of the Void, Aether Spellbomb, Pyrite Spellbomb, Memory Jar, fat creatures, Even some Stax components (especially Tangle Wire) would be good when you can weld them in and out on your own terms.

[dicemanx]

I like the idea behind this deck and faced something similar in the past (but without R), but it is a little light on disruption even with all of your card drawing.

Some random suggestions:

1. I think you should try 4 main deck CotV or even some main deck Tormod's Crypts, and consider going with full power given that you have a lot of 2cc spells with 1 colorless in that cost and because Bazaars cost a land drop already.

2. You could also consider adding 1-2 Titans and a Tinker to give your Welders something extra to do without relying on them entirely. Maybe a Jar on top of that as well.

3. Another interesting idea is to add Root Mazes main, since they can severely annoy fast combo and Drain decks.

4. AKs look weak in this deck, but I might consider going with all 4 DAs. All 4 Brainstorms should be in there too. You need some balance between draw spells and cards that are cheap and affect the board. As Moxlotus points out, this deck looks to be a case of too much draw a la GothSlaver.

Try not to get discouraged by the comments or getting your deck moved to the improvement forum. Ideally, posting decks on TMD should lead to getting them torn apart for the benefit of the deck builder.

[Khahan]

Couple of things to throw at you, keeping in mind that I have not playtested.

1. As mentioned above, Memory jar seems like it would kick ass in this deck.

2. You are running wild mongrel (2 drop for G), ninja of the deep hours (2 drop for U) and goblin welder (1 drop for R).
Thats 3 different colors of mana for your early game PLUS you have bazaar which is a land drop that gets none of those things into play.

3. Couple #2 with a lack of cheap/effective countermagic (sorry, but 4 FoW just isn't enough with decks like pitch long) and combo is probably going to bowl you over before turn 3.

The idea is good and certainly has potential. But just perusing your deck list, those are some speed bumps I think you'll run into over the long haul.

[Guli]

ofcourse the list isn't perfect, it was my idea that i posted. But ideas are not appreciated by some people. They expect perfection. There is a lot of thought put into the idea. The cards are not new besides Ancient Grudge wich is a key card thanks to his flashback.

THe real plan is to simply attack with a fat mongrel converting all the cards in damage. I know there is a problem with disruption. 4 Force arent going to cut it. Maybe null rod is an option. Or like a lot people suggested CotV. I could  play a chalice@1 against combo it wont hurt me much as him.

Here is the updated version i am playtesting now:

// Mana
    1 Island
    1 Mountain
    3 Wooded Foothills
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Volcanic Island
    2 Taiga
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Sol Ring

// Creatures

    4 Wild Mongrel
    4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
    4 Goblin Welder
    2 Gorilla Shaman

// Spells

    1 Ancestral Recall
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Time Walk
    3 Deep Analysis
    3 Thirst for Knowledge
    2 Ancient Grudge
    1 Tinker
    1 Memory Jar
    4 Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge (Workshop,stax,...)
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt (ichorid,Y.Will)
SB: 4 Ray of Revelation (Oath,Leyline)
SB: 2 Tundra (Adapt mana base for Ray of Rev)
SB: 4 Duplicant (Welder,Aggro,Ichorid,Oath,...)

Basicly i removed 7 draw spells and relpaced them with disruption and other draw spells.

[President Skroob]

I think that Bazaar is going to hurt you rather than help you. It's going to consume a land drop that you really need to play threats, and on top of that it's going to hurt your hand size like mad. I've been matched up against other players using their Bazaar aggressively, and it's very comforting to be sitting across from an opponent with a tiny or non-existant hand because they lost all their cards to Bazaar. If you're playing any spells during your turn (which you should be, I mean, this is Fish) than your hand will simply vanish. I realize that you're running Squees to circumvent the issue, but I think that the fact that the Squee engine doesn't always come online with Bazaar, combined with the miss of a land drop that you need to apply pressure, and also the fact that this engine takes up 8 slots in your deck, I really believe that better choices can be made for those slots.

[FlamingCloud]

I like the deck, but I do think that 1-2 maindeck triskilions would be a huge boon.  With 4 bazaar, 4 mongrel my recommendation would be for the card to come from those slots.  Essentially triskilion is better in most of the matchups you have listed as duplicant being good in.. all matchups if you assume oath boards in their SSSs against you.  Duplicant is superior game 1 vs oath, and basically every other time trisk is better.

[Guli]

I want to ask 2 things.

Please forget about the standard fish builds and playstyles. This is something new and this idea should be examined in a new fashion.

Lets restart the idea and go through the deck 1 by 1.

4 Goblin Welder

I explained why i want to use this 1 drop. It fits in a 'fish deck' it is the best 1 drop you can get. It's Welder.

I need a creature that can discard cards to weld them in. And i want a clock. Answer: Wild Mongrel (this hound will also help me against aggro)

4 Wild mongrel

Some cards i really want to see in the deck if the previous creatures are chosen. And i ll add the broken stuff aswell.

1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 mox Ruby
1 mox Emerald
1 mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana crypt

Flashback is an ability that fits so nicely in the deck. And it is simply card advantage. Since we have G/R...

Ancient Grudge seems like a natural pick.

Other flashback cards that are interesting: Deep Analysis, Lava dart, Ray of Revelation...

So go ahead and discuss what direction the deck should go from this skeleton

[Duncan]

What about Circular Logic? Could that help you getting a bit more control/disruption?

[Twaun007]

Your list looks fun to play, but have you ever researched the old 7/10 decks of the past. I also believe that there was a deck named cerebral assassin that had a similar draw engine to your deck.
You could also research some of the old Italian madness decks.

Another question I have is the inclusion of green. Is wild mongrel more broken than other creatures?
If you eliminate mongrel from the deck you can use better creatures such as sundering titan or trike.
With the bazaar draw engine + green where is regrowth?

Just some friendly points.

[Guli]

Your list looks fun to play, but have you ever researched the old 7/10 decks of the past. I also believe that there was a deck named cerebral assassin that had a similar draw engine to your deck.
You could also research some of the old Italian madness decks.

Another question I have is the inclusion of green. Is wild mongrel more broken than other creatures?
If you eliminate mongrel from the deck you can use better creatures such as sundering titan or trike.
With the bazaar draw engine + green where is regrowth?

Just some friendly points.

Mongrel is a mini psychatog, it is common that he gives 7-10 damage a turn meaning it will take 2 turns to kill most of the time when he hits the table. He also has great synergy with welder/flashback/Madness

Ancient grugde and Ray of revelation are green. It is the flashback that interests me. Regr is an option.

[Khahan]

Please forget about the standard fish builds and playstyles. This is something new and this idea should be examined in a new fashion.

I'm not a fish player by any stretch of the imagination, so none of my thoughts or ideas come from that slant.

Lets restart the idea and go through the deck 1 by 1.

4 Goblin Welder

I explained why i want to use this 1 drop. It fits in a 'fish deck' it is the best 1 drop you can get. It's Welder.

Agreed, its a great 1 drop and it can really mess up your opponents board. But your main point in its 'favor' is welding a mox and sol ring in and out to generate an extra mana.  Sorry, but you are missing a lot of uses of welder. I'll get to that later.

I need a creature that can discard cards to weld them in. And i want a clock. Answer: Wild Mongrel (this hound will also help me against aggro)

4 Wild mongrel

Actually, I think its a great idea. Good job. In theory it looks great and is definitely worth exploring more.

Some cards i really want to see in the deck if the previous creatures are chosen. And i ll add the broken stuff aswell.

1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 mox Ruby
1 mox Emerald
1 mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana crypt

Now you are getting somewhere with using welder. Though to be competitive t1, I think everything but Memory Jar is basically an auto include. Its taken for granted that those cards are in. You need more. Memory Jar is a great, great start in this deck with wild mongrel and welder, both.  But you need more. We'll get to that.

Flashback is an ability that fits so nicely in the deck. And it is simply card advantage. Since we have G/R...

Ancient Grudge seems like a natural pick.

Other flashback cards that are interesting: Deep Analysis, Lava dart, Ray of Revelation...

So go ahead and discuss what direction the deck should go from this skeleton

So you are looking for a deck that wins games through great synergy between its cards?  Good idea. Nobody will knock you for that.

Now, lets try and put it all together. Again, I'm not knocking the idea. Rather I'm making suggestions to improve the idea. If you want to consistently get help, you do need to lose the "this is my idea so lets take it in my direction or i'll take it personally, " attitude (you may not intend to come across that way, but you do...we're trying to help. You don't have to like our ideas, but so far I think most of the ideas for changes have been better supported.)
Anyway, here goes:

From what I see, your deck is kind of a welder/fish meld. The idea and basic cards to get started are there, but after that, I think it falls flat for a few reasons:
1. As stated before, the mana base will not work. You need to lose the bazaars. You cannot support early drops in 2 different colors AND support a land drop that does not produce colors. Sorry.  (even though you took out the Ninja it helps, but its not enough..bazaar just works against your best deck strategy.

2. The disruption: Its almost non-existent as you've said. We need more than 4 FoW. However, mana drains are out as this is a heavy 3 color deck and it would be tough to support the UU of drain early on when its needed.

3. You have a great 1 and 2 drop in welder/mongrel, but you just aren't making the best use of them. This where you can borrow ideas from a control slaver deck: Trike and dupilicant. Turn 1 welder. Turn 2 mongrel, discard trike. Weld trike in for a mox. Turn 3, attack w/ trike and mongrel. You now have board control and a very quick clock.

4. Bazaar and mongrel do not work well together. You are trying to win through damage. Your damage outlet is pitching to mongrel. If you use bazaar you lose a point of damage with each activation. See the problem?

I think its safe to take out 4 bazaars and with them gone, take out 4 squees.

Now, you are solidly R/G and need some control assistance.
Chalice of the void at 0 and or 1 hurts a lot of decks that you'll have problems with. If you get the welder down, you can then drop the chalice at 1 and not worry too much.
Other cards that may help: Red elemental blast x4.  This will be nice against pitch long.
Mana leak: this would stress the mana base early game which you cannot afford to do.
artifact mutation: You are R/G trying to win with damage.
Trike: See above. It works too well with welder and its a great card to pitch to mongrel
Duplicant: See above

From your list, we are down 8 slots (bazaar and squee).
We can add:
+2 robots (trike/dup) (6 slots left)
+2 chalice (4 slots left)

You've got 4 slots. Playtest the deck, find out which decks run you over and put those slots to helping that match up.

Other cards to consider: pithing needle, stifle, various bounce spells, crucible of worlds (wastelands WILL kill this deck in its tracks before it gets going), memory jar (as discussed by many, this is not a consideration..its an inclusion), tinker, colossus, tormod's crypt maindeck, kird apes for additional beats (I would say no, but I think some people would like them..at least try them out).

[Guli]

Ok ive read your post Khahan. It gave me pleasure. You made good points. But I want to try something. Lets not make this a R/G beat deck. It is not the idea. Sure i want to win with damage but i rather win like groatog and my main win condition is mongrel. There is another win condition btw.

So if you can bare with me lets make this deck a U/R deck with green/white splash (white=Ray of Revelation in sideboard)

And lets take the level of the posts a bit higher. The things you are saying are really all common knowledge for me. For example
"Now, you are solidly R/G and need some control assistance.
Chalice of the void at 0 and or 1 hurts a lot of decks that you'll have problems with. If you get the welder down, you can then drop the chalice at 1 and not worry too much."
And my style of posting is indeed a bit harsh sometimes but just ignore that. All i am after is sharing ideas and creating a competetive Type 1 deck.

The deck should go smooth and should focus on building up card advantage with draw spells and flashback. After you have done that you convert it into damage with mongrel. If this can be combined with dropping a stream of creatures and fatties then i think we have succeed.

[Guli]

Another problem is that if you make the deck to much dependant on welder you could end up with dead cards because there is a lot welderhate.

I used Squee because of 3 reasons

Bazaar,TFK,Mongrel

If there is a lot draw you will eventually find a couple of squee and eventhough it seems counterproductive to use bazaar and mongrel at a certain point in the game it does not matter because of the overwhelming card drawing. The mongrel should be a win condition that says GG in 2 turns like DC or Oath creatures. This means i don't want to cast it turn 2 and start discarding my cards to give more damage with mongrel. No that is not the idea. The idea is to build enough card advantage and control and finish him off with welder/mongrel/Jar in 2 turns. Berserk and Cunning Wish sounds interesting.

[Khahan]

Ok ive read your post Khahan. It gave me pleasure. You made good points. But I want to try something. Lets not make this a R/G beat deck. It is not the idea. Sure i want to win with damage but i rather win like groatog and my main win condition is mongrel. There is another win condition btw.

So if you can bare with me lets make this deck a U/R deck with green/white splash (white=Ray of Revelation in sideboard)

Ok, so you are U/R w/ a green splash. I think adding white for Ray in the s/b is a mistake. Those 2 slots that are tundras can become something else. You can run ray w/out white because of the flashback.
I think you could drop the tundra, still run ray and open up 2 more s/b slots.

Also, I did completely overlook the squee/mongrel interaction. However, is it worth it? As we've discussed, the deck is great on synergy, but weak on utility.  With mongrel and a lot of card draw, you can go lethal in 2-3 turns. I don't see squee really speeding this up.  I still think those slots will be better suited to other cards.

What about other draw 7's?  Wheel of fortune, timetwister? Pitch your hand to mongrel, play wheel for 7 attack and pitch again. If your initial hand is 3 you pitch 2 making mongrel a 4/4, then pitch 7 more for 11 in a single attack.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Have you considered a Welder-Tog deck?  With Tog over Mongrel, Bazaar and TFK become that much better.  Plus, Black is a lot more Vintage-friendly than Green and Welder keeps its utility.

[never]

What if you used life from the loam instead of squee? For two mana you get 3 cards, and you only need one of them to do what 3 squees would do. And you don't really have to worry about fish or stax messing with your mana base.

This also opens up a stronger reason to be running intuition over thirst, as an intuition for loam, stripmine, bazaar could be pretty intense. And you can intuition for 3 deep analysis as well, which would be in you a pretty strong position to be drawing a lot of cards. Or you can get Ancient Grudges. Intuition could even put memory jar in your grave for welder, on demand. You don't need to hope your thirst into it.

[Guli]

TFK gives you the ability to discard just like mongrel and bazaar do. I need the ability to discard cards and while i am doing this i might aswell discard squee or flashback cards. The suggestions are all great btw. But nothing really new and breaking.

This deck should not try to win to quickly. Maybe Quirion Dryad is also an option. With all the flashback and draw. I want to go togish with this deck but with a cheaper tog that doesnt have the option to eat from the grave. But i don't want that anyway i want to abuse the grave... you see were i wanna go with this?

[President Skroob]

On the topic of Life from the Loam and Deep Analysis, you'll have to decide if you want a more offensive or more defensive stance for the deck. If you're offensive, you might be able to squeek by running just Force of Will and Misdirection, but going down a more defensive route will push you into keeping mana open for countermagic. Rune Snare and Mana Leak, what would most likely be your bread and butter countermagic, both need 2 mana, which isn't bad, but it's also not always available if you play a Sorcery heavy deck. I think that's one of the big reasons we don't see more Deep Anal in decks, is because you can't end of turn it (and if you could it would probably be bahroken).

So yeah, just remember your mana base when choosing sorceries and how much mana you'll need to keep open to keep your opponent from winning. Assuming you play Mana Leak or Rune Snare or another mana requiring counterspell.

[Guli]

Have you considered a Welder-Tog deck?  With Tog over Mongrel, Bazaar and TFK become that much better.  Plus, Black is a lot more Vintage-friendly than Green and Welder keeps its utility.

Yes i considered it. There are some curcial differences between mongrel and tog. Namely green. And the flashback of Ancient grudge is green. Also the mongrel is 2/2 wich does count sometimes. The cc is also an important factor.