[Deck] U/G fish viable again (ok, its really WUg)

[Khahan]

I have never been a big fish player, but a few cards from some recent blocks have caught my eye and got me thinking. I built a U/G fish deck that did ok, but it was lacking a bit of oomph. So I splashed W for a few effects (naming Jotun Grunt and then meddling mage).

The deck is more a 'fun' deck right now, but it can win against a number of tier 1 decks. In a tournament, it would probably not make top 8, but would be a 'spoiler' deck, randomly winning some games and ruining somebody elses day. I don't like that. I want to make it actually competitive, not just a nuisance.  Here is the current list:

Mana
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
4 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring


Creatures and Beaters
3 Trinket Mage
3 Trygon Predator
2 Azorious Guildmage
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Meddling Mage

Card Draw/Tutor
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystic Tutor
1 Sword of Fire/Ice

Control:
4 FoW
4 Mana Drain
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Misdirection
2 Stifle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Root Maze
2 Daze

Other:
1 Time Walk



S/B
 will review below


Card Choices
Inclusions

Trinket Mage: Included for a number of reasons. He can tutor up pithing needle, chalice, top or a mox for acceleration. Easily castable 2/2 beater w/ a useful ability/

Trygon Predator: 1UG 2/3 Flier  When ~this~ deals combat damage to a player, destroy target artifact or enchantment that player controls.   His 3 toughness butt stops a lot of creatures. If he's on line first, he kills oath. He is the reason I deicided to U/G fish a try in the first place. Draw back: 2 colors and 3 mana to play. Benefits: he gets active and he does wreck a lot of decks and can win games himself. 

Jotun Grunt: Original build had creatures, but not enough. He is cheap, easy to cast and has an effect on the game aside from damage. He also is a fast clock.

Azorious Guildmage: There is only 1 copy because I am play testing him. His activated abilities are a bit costly. But he gives repeatable control to the board. When he hits play, he has a direct impact on the game almost immediately. If I untap (of he comes out late) he obsolete wastelands, fetches, welders etc. Considering a 2/3 flier killing mana and a jotun grunt putting pressure on life totals, keeping 3 open to counter activated abilities puts a lot of stress on the opponent. I want more and may drop DSC for him (fear of wipeaway).

Sensei's Divining Top/Counterbalance: This adds a nasty control element to the deck. This decks runs a lot of 0, 1, 2,3 and 5 drops (5 are misD and FoW...which counter MisD and FoW).  Either card alone is randomly useful and rarely useless. Both together have made many an opponent on MWS quit (ok, so its not the best barometer).

Pithing Needle/Chalice of the Void: Silver Bullet trinket mage targets.

StPS Silver bullet w/out tutoring is not the best.

Aether vial: This has been randomly good. But do I set the counter to 2 or 3? I don't feel I have room for 4 of them or even 3. Possibly 2.  It can kick ass, but I've managed ok w/out it.

Exclusions
Bounce spell: Its out right now because I'm trying other things. But I wouldn't mind a wipe away, CoV, repeal, or Echoing Truth.

Ninja of the deep hours: He was one of the original draw engines. But I just didn't have any creatures making him worth bringing out. He works best on turn 2 or 3. I often found I'd draw him and do nothing with him. He made room for W creatures.

Null rod: I've cut back on my artifacts w/ activated abilities a bit. But this deck really is dependant on artifact acceleration through the first 2-3 turns because of the 3 drop creatures.  Should they go back in? If they go maindeck, I think the aether vial is out and probably 1 or 2 of my '1 of' spells like misdirection or swords.

Birds of paradise: If I put null rods in, this guy is a consideration. Drop a the off color moxen for 3 of them.

strip effects: its fish, disrupt the early mana base, right? Not in a 3 color fish build. I don't think I can afford the off-color mana sources. Especially running Counterbalance, guildmage, mana drain and predator. Too much colored mana needed early. I tried to compensate w/ control elements elsewhere.

Mana Crypt: Too many colored mana symbols for the early game. Not enough generic mana to accelerate into.


S/B:
This can have a wide variety of s/b options. I can load up on StPS, add in stifles for early mana control, BEB, orim's chants, naturalizes, more chalices, more needles. seal of cleansing, ray of revelations, etc. My local metagame is pretty random, but there are handful of decks that always show up.


Changes I'd like to see/not see
First, I'm going to be very resistant to taking out the predator. Not 100% opposed, but resistant. I think there are other things that can be done with the deck.
1 change would be to add null rod main deck. This would involve taking out them moxen, which would mean I would probably take out trinket mage as there just aren't that many targets and the aether vial. -3 trinket mage, +3 null rod -2-5 moxen, -1 aether vial. This route opens up 3-6 slots.

1 of silver bullets can go since I do not have a lot of tutors (such as STPS, stifle, misD). Of course, combine that and the above, and I can keep a few mox, keep the trinket mages and increase 1 CC artifacts to tutor up.

I think any changes to the artifact mana base will require significant additions of other mana sources.

Any other suggestions?

I've made the following changes:
-1 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Aether vial
+1 Mystic Tutor
-1 Chalice
-1 Mox Ruby
-1 stifle
-1 DSC
-1 Tinker
+1 Azorious Guildmage
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Engineered explosives
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+2 City of Brass

I DSC just isn't needed in this deck as it provides fast beatdown from other creatures. W/out him, there really are not many 'efficient' tinker targets.  The needle, explosives and crypt are all trinket mage targets that can really help. I may do -1 predator, +1 trinket mage to increase my tutoring abilities. This would also ease up the mana base.
I added 2 city of brass to help smooth out the early mana issues and to increase my mana count (only around 20?).

I decided to drop the chalice as this deck has way too many cards at 0, 1, and 3. Chalice is going to hurt this deck as much as any other deck.

[Nastaboi]

Actually I just built my old WTF deck yesterday and added Jötun Grunts. I think the biggest reason to go green is Team Wild Mongrel and Basking Rootwalla. I'd start any UG fish list with four of these both.

I don't like Counterbalance in a tempo deck like this one. Since you already run Tinker, Walk and singleton StP, why not add Mystical Tutor to the mix? One Vial is too random, and you have that 2/3cc problem. Vial is a card you'd have to build deck around to have full benefit. I'd up either Null Rod or Chalice count, but you should't drop Moxen if you do. Your 3cc creatures look reasonable with full acceleration. Enlightened seems crappy when you have Trinket Mages.

[Khahan]

Thanks. I'll try dropping the STP for a chalice. Enlightened is great to pull a counterbalance. And if one is already in play, then it just pulls any artifact I happen to need. If I take out counter/top I'll remove enlightened tutor.

I'll also try taking out -1 Vial and +1 mystical.

Mongrel is nice and I may add him in, but I'm not a fan of rootwalla. He just beats and has no other  real utility and I really think this deck needs major utility from its creatures. The mana is already tight each turn and having pay to pump the rootwalla is just another knock against it.

[Tragedy]

hmm i would add another sensei's top... just because it is a remarkable card... and it works awesome with counter balance. Also since your using green Xantid swarm is a great card to add... lets you keep your counters to use on opponents.

Of what to take out, i have no clue. Its all your descisions, i just gave a few ideas of mine.

[Khahan]

Xantid Swarm is interesting and using it in that manner it certainly does increase my counter capability. I don't think I'm going to add it right now, but I'll certainly put it on a 'to be tested list.'

With swarms and BoPs, I could actually add in NotdH and bring this back more towards a traditional fish school of thought, using wastelands and nullrods.  It could be a major overhaul of the deck and I may lose some pet cards, but it may just be more effective. Certainly worth trying down the road.

[warble]

Azorious Guildmage: When he hits play, he has a direct impact on the game almost immediately. If I untap (of he comes out late) he obsolete wastelands, fetches, welders etc. Considering a 2/3 flier killing mana and a jotun grunt putting pressure on life totals, keeping 3 open to counter activated abilities puts a lot of stress on the opponent. I want more and may drop DSC for him

This logic is flawed.  If fish can ever sit there with 3 (yes, you were thinking you'd have 3) creatures out for multiple turns, it has no right NOT winning the game.  The purpose of fish creatures is typically to stymy the early game, disrupt the tempo of the opposing deck, provide an "alternative" clock, and damage?  Well, that's where the mongrel and rootwalla growing to enormous proportions comes into play.

Problems:
1) there is no mana denial (waste+strip)
2) there is no early disruption
3) Your creatures seem to think they'll be able to beat down your opponent, because coming down on turn 3 or 4 is SO BRUTAL OMFG it's a TURN 3 TRYGON NOOOOOO
4) There is no vial, no jitte and no null rod
5) You built 5cc with a bunch of creatures and a weakened control base and called it U/G fish.

It's not often that I say this about a list, but this thing needs to be completely scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up.  Not only will it not work, it will actually misfire so much you could put your eye out piloting this deck.

[Khahan]

Problems:
1) there is no mana denial (waste+strip)
2) there is no early disruption
3) Your creatures seem to think they'll be able to beat down your opponent, because coming down on turn 3 or 4 is SO BRUTAL OMFG it's a TURN 3 TRYGON NOOOOOO
4) There is no vial, no jitte and no null rod
5) You built 5cc with a bunch of creatures and a weakened control base and called it U/G fish.

It's not often that I say this about a list, but this thing needs to be completely scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up.  Not only will it not work, it will actually misfire so much you could put your eye out piloting this deck.

I've been play testing this list for a few months. And while those problems have occassionally come up, they haven't occurred enough that I believe them to be 'flaws' in the deck.   Usually Trygon is down on turn 2 or non-standard disruption keeps my opponent off balance until its pulled out and does come down.
Yes, the combo match up is horrible on turn 1. And a few people have actually offered suggestions on tweaking the deck. Also, as I stated, its more of a 'fun' deck right now and I would like to gear it more towards competitiveness. So t hank you for pointing out the obvious that I already brought up, Warble. Your post truly was an asset to this conversation.

Now, for anybody else who would like to address fixing the problem, I'm all ears.

[warble]

thank you for pointing out the obvious that I already brought up, Warble. Your post truly was an asset to this conversation.

Now, for anybody else who would like to address fixing the problem, I'm all ears.

I don't have to fix your problems, I'm content just pointing them out.  There are too many blatant problems for any good player to consider trying to fix this deck.  That's all I wanted to point out.  Those concerns are about your plan, card choice can only support a good plan and this deck just doesn't have one.  If I thought this deck needed a few tweaks I would gladly offer them.  Here's a start, but I really don't think it'll help

+4 wasteland
+1 strip mine
+3 aether vial
+2 daze

-1 off-color mox
-1 Mystical Tutor
-1 Enlightened Tutor
-4 Mana Drain
-1 Pithing Needle
-2 City of Brass

[brianpk80]

Khahan,

Nice work stepping outside the conventional framework and daring to try something new.  I have some observations.

First, it's fine that you're not opting for heavy mana denial as your primary avenue of disruption.  While the trio of Wasteland, Strip Mine, and Null Rod is often regarded as the sine qua non of modern Fish builds, the archetype is variable enough that you can compensate for their loss with alternate suites of disruption.  I've seen the Trygon Predator in action many times before and know how devastating it can be to the board of any opponent that doesn't kill you on Turn 1.  Have you considered complementing his effect with Root Maze?  A first turn Root Maze slows down combo more than any singleton lock piece I can think of aside from Trinisphere and perhaps Sphere of Resistance.  It also neuters the Dragon, Sensei, Sensei, and any Yawgmoth's Will or Tendrils-based combos that pose a strong threat in the early game.  When you resolve a Predator under a Root Maze, he effectively becomes a Null Rod and Gorilla Shaman combined, in the sense that Moxen won't be used and if resolved, they'll soon be eaten.  Any deck running green these days should probably be including, and at the very least sideboarding, some Root Mazes.  On a similar note, I disagree with the idea that the mere presence of some Tropical Islands and a Savannah mandates the inclusion of Wild Mongrels or any similar raw green beaters, especially without Bazaars, Squee, or some reliable way of inducing Threshold.  Any creature ran in Vintage these days (aside from Colossus and Ichorid) should have some additional utility/disruption to justify its slot.       

Next, your build is about 4-6 cards away from being a green infused Bomberman list.  Is there any reason you're not including Auriok Salvagers aside from the drive for originality? 

Additionally, I'm not too persuaded by the Counterbalance trick.  I've tested it and played against it several times and found it to be a bit too slow, random, and gimmicky for Vintage.  It looks like your deck, much like Slaver, has a fierce eye on the board, has some mid-late game inevitability, and you're main challenge will be to weather the early turns.  I'd much sooner run 2 Tormod's Crypts than 2 Pithing Needles and maindeck Children of Korlis might go a long way in stalling those extra turns for board position.  Note that Misdirection actually doesn't do much for you here because it is an offensive, not defensive, counter. 

Some changes I would consider: -1 Sensei's Divining Top, -1 Pithing Needle, -1 Misdirection, -1 Enlightened Tutor, -2 Counterbalance, -1 Mystical Tutor, -4 Brainstorm, +1 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Trinket Mage, +4 Children of Korlis, +3 Ninja of the Deep Hours, +2 Root Maze. 

Good luck with the list and let me know if you want to playtest,

-BPK

[Nastaboi]

I just noticed those Drains. These absolutely do not belong. You can't be sitting with UU up and casting threats same time. With Vials, I might reconsider them.

[Khahan]

I just noticed those Drains. These absolutely do not belong. You can't be sitting with UU up and casting threats same time. With Vials, I might reconsider them.

Your absolutely right. Dropping the drains would be a very nice way to ease up the mana base. But if I do that, I'm pretty screwed for countermagic.

Of course, -4 drains could open room for strip, 2 null, wasteland. 


@brain: Dropping the counterbalances is a way to go. I've  had them hit the table and counter absolutely nothing for 5-7 turns. I've had them hit the table and completely shut down my opponent.  With counterbalance, I have 2 things to do: Either increase 'top of the deck manipulation' (this would probably mean adding +1 top and +2 fetches or testing out telling time) to make them more effective, or cut them.


As for bomberman, I'm simply not familiar with the list. I'm aware of the deck and know what it does. I've seen decklists etc, but I never really played w/ or against it.

[Zarathustra]

Your absolutely right. Dropping the drains would be a very nice way to ease up the mana base. But if I do that, I'm pretty screwed for countermagic.

Of course, -4 drains could open room for strip, 2 null, wasteland.

Misdirection and Daze come to mind as much better counterspells in a Fish deck. 

This deck is in severe need of Wastelands, Strip Mine, and Null Rod.  Without those, I don't honestly see how anyone can call it a 'Fish' deck. 

@brain: Dropping the counterbalances is a way to go. I've  had them hit the table and counter absolutely nothing for 5-7 turns. I've had them hit the table and completely shut down my opponent.  With counterbalance, I have 2 things to do: Either increase 'top of the deck manipulation' (this would probably mean adding +1 top and +2 fetches or testing out telling time) to make them more effective, or cut them.

I have no idea why you even consider keeping Counterbalance in the deck.  This space is better left to cards that actually disrupt Powered decks.

I've seen this same idea being used on the Oath Fish thread.  Bpk also thinks this is a new age Fish and while I respect an attempt at making Fish differently, Fish is a very special deck.  The name Fish, in and of itself, means that the deck is aggro control, with tempo aspects.  There is next to no tempo in this deck.  Null Rod, Wastelands, Swords, Stifles, Daze, MisD, etc are all absent.  I have no idea how you have game against Gifts, 5C Stax, Oath, PL, or even Dragon.  Considering you put next to no pressure on them and they have nothing to fear when going off.

I would think about making this deck over, from the ground up.

[netherspirit]

I like the deck! I'm in a hurry so I'll keep this short and sweet though. Counterbalance is complete junk, and Pithing Needle is sideboard material. I think Strip Mine and Wasteland are also essential, they let you maintain the board early game and get rid of problematic lands late game. And I think you should keep Chalice in, it may not be amazing all the time, but it gives you turn 1 mana denial and stops any spells your dreading.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I've been looking at UG Fish for a while and there's a couple of points that I think are worth making and obscure cards worth pointing out:

1.  Pygmy Hippo is powerful with Ninjas.

Here's how he works:  UG 2/2

Oracle text: Whenever Pygmy Hippo attacks and isn’t blocked, you may have defending player play a mana ability of each land he or she controls and empty his or her mana pool. If you do, Pygmy Hippo deals no combat damage this turn and at the beginning of your postcombat main phase, add X to your mana pool, where X is equal to the amount of mana emptied from defending player’s mana pool this way.

That's a lot of text so flowchart:

Hippo attacks, you stack and resolve its trigger choosing take your opponent's mana.  You then flip in Ninja of the Deep hours, Ink-eyes, or Okiba Gang Shinobi knowing that your opponent cannot bounce it.

You can then use the mainphase mana to cast things like Null Rod, large Chalices (2 and 3), or even Yawg Will knowing that your opponent's only out is FoW.

2.  If you splash black instead of white, you get Confidants and Duress.  If you run white, it's unforgivable to leave out Meddling Mage.

3.  Run Waterfront Bouncer, he's a strong answer to opposing aggro and DSC.

4.  Meandeck WTF was a cute deck whose premise is not outlived (entirely).  Rootwallas combo in cute ways with both Bouncers and Ninjas.  Similarly, the Hippos can power out Jittes without fear of Drains. 

5.  I'd run 4 FoW, 4 Misdirection, and 4 Daze on that premise that you need your mana for casting things on your turn and that no Ancestral Recall should ever resolve unless its pointed at you.

6.  Root Maze is sexy.  It kills combo (together with your counter suite) and slows down opposing control players whose Drains require untapped lands.

7.  Run full acceleration.  First turn Confidant, Bouncer, and *hardcast* Daze are very solid.

[Implacable]

There're a lot of possiblities for this deck, and they begin with the removal of Mana Drain, Counterbalance, and Sensei's Divining Top.  While both Drain and Top are good cards in a vacuum, Drain hurts your mana-base and Top is too slow.  Furthermore, as netherspirit stated, Counterbalance is a bad card in almost any format.  If you do end up cutting Top, then Trinket Mage obviously loses much of its value, and good riddance; you could run an efficient beater or disruption in its Gray Ogre place.  In turn, you can cut your utility artifacts, whcih will leave you with 13 slots.  I encourage you to cut those cards and experiment with some of the following:

Daze: Daze is a great card in your deck because of the tempo that a quick counter like it generates.  With cards like Trygon Predator and Jotun Grunt, your goal is to delay the opponent while destroying their artifact mana and swinging with one of the most rawly powerful beaters ever printed.  Daze helps you do that by not losing you card-advantage like Force of Will does and also by making your opponent play more cautiously if they have seen it.

Remand: Remand is the best counterspell in Type 2, and it is criminally underused in Type 1.  It's good in your deck for many of the same reasons that Daze is; in a deck with as many beatsticks as you have, it could be Time Walks 2-5. 

Root Maze: Root Maze is, I daresay, the best pure hate card in all of Type 1.  While this may seem like hyperbole to some, the amount of decks that it, backed up with beats, utterly destroys cannot be understated.  You would have to cut some Fetchlands in order to run Root Maze well, but it comes back to the principle of symmetrical land destruction: Can you live with having few lands if your opponent has to as well?  In any Fish build ever designed, the answer is yes.

Stifle: Similarly to Root Maze, Stifle hoses many decks in Type 1, and it works nicely with Root Maze in not allowing the opponent to play around it.  When one thinks about a blue-green Fish list, one must consider that there it is possible to run 13 land destruction 'spells' (Strips) in the main, all of which are not mana-intensive and which are very powerful in Type 1.  Completely casting aside its effectiveness against Tendrils/Desire, Stifle is a Stone Rain for  .  How could you not run it?

Warble's argument must be taken into account.  As it is, this deck probably cannot compete against the field at a major Vintage event.  While the utility of the deck is to be admired, the speed at which that utility runs is unfortunately suboptimal.  A major redesign of the deck is definitely in order.  While I leave that up to you, I suggest the following:

3 Jotun Grunt
3 Meddling Mage
3 Trygon Predator
2 Azorius Guildmage

4 Root Maze
4 Stifle

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Remand
1 Misdirection

3 Swords to Plowshares

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 LoMoxen
4 Wasteland
3 Tundra
2 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
2 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
2 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Strip Mine

The above deck is obviously a high-powered one; it remains to see if it is a good one.  It has an extraordinarily heavy counter suite, with 12 counters clocking in above any deck in the format.  It seems to have a decent matchup against Long and Dragon, with Root Maze and Stifle being particularly effective against both of them.  You will likely be able to match the amount of counter that Gifts has access to (Scroll evens out your advantage), and you should be able to manhandle Control Slaver.  Your match against Fish is a good one; your men are bigger than their's, and you have better tempo.  Please, while I don't expect you to adopt this list, think about what has made Fish a good eck; it's not the utility elements.

[Khahan]

I've been holding onto counterbalance/top because it can 'randomly' wreck my opponent. I just destroyed bomberman earlier today with it. But then I have to consider this: For every game that it works well, there are 2 games that it doesn't. In those games I either A) have no library manipulation or B) have the manipulation but still fail to see the right CC cards.

So, -2 top, -2 counterbalance.
And with them gone, I have no need for enlightened tutor, free space! -1 Enlightened tutor.
I had bumped it to 2 Pithing needles, but will drop that back down to 1.
+6 card slots and a lot of great ideas to fill them.

With that said, I'm not sure about cutting trinket mage. He provides more than a 'cute trick' effect like Counter-top did. He tutors up mana accel or he tutors up an answer in the form of crypt, needle, chalice etc.

For now, I'm going to take this one step at a time. I have rootmazes, stifles and dazes to add back in.  I may just start out w/ 2 of each for some heavy testing and adjust from there.

After that set of testing is done, I'll tinker w/ the trinket mage.

Those are some great ideas and may bring this deck back around to competitive levels.

[Khahan]

Ok, I modified the original post and the deck list there is what I'm currently running.
The rootmazes are phenomenal.  Stifle has been ok, and I'm again underwhelmed by daze. Daze was in my original build and taken out. I'm still play testing them.
So far today, I'm 3-0 with the deck, beating pitchlong! ( yeah, I got damn lucky w/ my draws having a rootmaze opening hand both games), oath (yeah, I got lucky resolving predator both games before they resolved Oath) and ubastax (beat it in 3..meddling mage naming smokestax does wonders for that match up).

Ok, its only3 games on MWS, but the pilots all seemed to be competent at the very least.

The mana drains are still in and haven't been a problem today. The way the deck is set up right now, the trinket mages need to be there. They bring a much needed toolbox aspect to the deck with the following targets: tormod's crypt, chalice of the void, pithing needle, engineered explosives. 

[Implacable]

Khahan, this may be impossible, but I really recommend that you get real-world testing partners.  Not only do they actually simulate a tournament situation, but they play faster and you can better judge their competence.

[Khahan]

It is possible and they are used often. Just not during the day.

[Zarathustra]

So far today, I'm 3-0 with the deck, beating pitchlong! ( yeah, I got damn lucky w/ my draws having a rootmaze opening hand both games), oath (yeah, I got lucky resolving predator both games before they resolved Oath) and ubastax (beat it in 3..meddling mage naming smokestax does wonders for that match up).

Ok, its only3 games on MWS, but the pilots all seemed to be competent at the very least.

Honestly, the competence of many MWS players is highly questionable.  All these decks require some skill to pilot, so I would very highly suggest you test against good players you know who can play PL, Oath, and UbaStax correctly.

-DShell

[brianpk80]

Ok, I modified the original post and the deck list there is what I'm currently running.
The rootmazes are phenomenal.  Stifle has been ok, and I'm again underwhelmed by daze. Daze was in my original build and taken out. I'm still play testing them.
So far today, I'm 3-0 with the deck, beating pitchlong! ( yeah, I got damn lucky w/ my draws having a rootmaze opening hand both games), oath (yeah, I got lucky resolving predator both games before they resolved Oath) and ubastax (beat it in 3..meddling mage naming smokestax does wonders for that match up).

Ok, its only3 games on MWS, but the pilots all seemed to be competent at the very least.

The mana drains are still in and haven't been a problem today. The way the deck is set up right now, the trinket mages need to be there. They bring a much needed toolbox aspect to the deck with the following targets: tormod's crypt, chalice of the void, pithing needle, engineered explosives. 

AmbivalentDuck and Implacable have some insightful suggestions that bring a lot to the table.  There are a few counterpoints I would add.

4 Root Mazes are indeed excessive and I'm glad you've gone with 2 instead.  It's a non-aggregate lock piece (unlike Chalice which can be replicated at a different number of counters, or Meddling Mage where each names an additional card) so finding any of them beyond the first is pointless.  That said, it is a very powerful card as you're experiencing and I could see keeping an extra one in the sideboard if you have a combo-heavy meta.

Next, I don't think Misdirection belongs in Fish because it's a pure offensive counter.  Sure, it's cute to steal your opponent's Ancestral and that may happen a lot, but that's not even the main reason it's included in Gifts or Pitch Long.  It works there as an offensive counter, meaning its objective is to incubate their massive threats (Tinker, Will, Gifts) from Force of Will.  There aren't too many threats in any Fish deck on par with Will or Tinker so Misdirection might be inapposite.  It's very spotty as a defensive counter and you'll curse every time you draw it in the Stax match.  I like Implacable's suggestion of Remand and think it might fit nicely with your Root Mazes and Predators. 

Next, on Wasteland, I think Fish can function without Wasteland if its replacements are sufficiently disruptive or advantageous to you.  This seems to be a controversial position which I've addressed before but a few of my main points against it are that the decks you would want to disrupt the most with Wasteland play around it to begin with.  Gifts won't unveil an Underground v. Fish unless it absolutely has to and Pitch Long will either kill you before it matters or ignore it altogether.  If you're beating Pitch Long with a Wasteland, then you're winning anyway.  Second, I think a lot of people overlook the color-screw you suffer when you dilute your mana base with 4 Wastelands in a three-color Fish build.  The added utility of that third color is the trade-off, and in the right build, it's generally worth it.  For instance, in the build I'm playing now, if I added Wastelands, I would have to cut black.  No Dark Confidant?  No Oath of Ghouls?  No Darkblast in the sideboard?  No thanks.  Still, I think your build might be able to squeeze in a Strip Mine or Library of Alexandria.  Maybe not w/o Vials, but I would consider them.

On that note, Daze is really limp without the mana denial component of Null Rod Fish.  I would cut it for more draw.  I want to suggest Ninja of the Deep Hours because they have inherent synergy with Grunt, Meddling Mage, and (!) Trinket Mage, but I see that you don't have a large base of cheap creatures to support Ninja.  This could be alleviated if you opted for more utility creatures in lieu of utility artifacts.  While I'd keep the Crypt(s), Engineered Explosives is a bit random and double-edged with your 2-drops and I'm not sure what the purpose of maindeck Pithing Needle is.  The "toolbox" approach you outline can be effective, and that is exactly the premise of Bomberman.  But Bomberman goes a lot further in recurring its tools indefinitely, for the win, and even swirling them into threatening infinite combo.  Since you've played against that deck now, I'm guessing you're more familiar with it.  I would tell you to add Auriok Salvagers and AEther Spellbomb but Root Maze shuts down the combo.  You're walking a fine line between Bomberman and Vial Fish, I think steering towards the latter is ultimately where this is headed.  If you steer away from Trinket Mage and his toolbelt, the need for Mana Drain is a lot less compelling and you can free up seven slots for more proactive disruption.   

Another option for draw is Sylvan Library.  It's a bit slow v. combo, but a huge advantage in every other match.  If you work in Children of Korlis (which also enables easy Ninjas), you're looking at a free Ancestral Recall every time you pop the kids after using the Sylvan.   

An important concern I have though is the mana base.  Unless I'm missing something, I'm only seeing 17 mana sources total, including the non-renewable Lotus, an off-color Mox, and a Sol Ring.  I run 22 mana sources + 4 AEther Vials in my list and still get mana screwed more often than I would like.  The Savannah should probably be Tundra # 4 because you never want to find yourself with a non-utility land that doesn't produce blue.  I would make some more specific suggestions but I can't do that until I'm sure the mana base won't be an obstacle.   

Finally, your testing results are a good start and you don't need me to give you a lecture on statistics.  It's no secret that many if not most of us here on the Drain play and test on MWS frequently, so there's a decent amount of quality mixed in with all the crap.  If you have friends from the community here and can test with them using the MWS medium, then you're certainly not having "random" encounters.  MWS, while flawed, is a great learning tool for many aspects of Vintage Magic and is unworthy of most of the snarks and degradation it receives. 
 
That's all for now,

-BPK

[Zarathustra]

Next, I don't think Misdirection belongs in Fish because it's a pure offensive counter.  Sure, it's cute to steal your opponent's Ancestral and that may happen a lot, but that's not even the main reason it's included in Gifts or Pitch Long.  There aren't too many threats in any Fish deck on par with Will or Tinker so Misdirection might be inapposite.  It's very spotty as a defensive counter and you'll curse every time you draw it in the Stax match.  I like Implacable's suggestion of Remand and think it might fit nicely with your Root Mazes and Predators.

 

Fish is an offensive deck, Misdirection fits perfectly fine.  And yes, Misdirection is included for Ancestral, along with the ability to counter other cards.  Of course Fish doesn't have threats on par with Will or Tinker, so why wouldn't a Fish deck want more ways to stop those bombs from resolving?

Stax isn't as prevelant as it once was, so I see no reason for worrying. 

Next, on Wasteland, I think Fish can function without Wasteland if its replacements are sufficiently disruptive or advantageous to you.  Gifts won't unveil an Underground v. Fish unless it absolutely has to and Pitch Long will either kill you before it matters or ignore it altogether.  Second, I think a lot of people overlook the color-screw you suffer when you dilute your mana base with 4 Wastelands in a three-color Fish build.  The added utility of that third color is the trade-off, and in the right build, it's generally worth it.  For instance, in the build I'm playing now, if I added Wastelands, I would have to cut black.  No Dark Confidant?  No Oath of Ghouls?  No Darkblast in the sideboard?  No thanks.  Still, I think your build might be able to squeeze in a Strip Mine or Library of Alexandria.  Maybe not w/o Vials, but I would consider them.

The fact is, each integral tempo piece you take out of Fish, the less the deck actually does what it wants.  Game 1 against Gifts, Wasteland is huge.  You may not think so, but cutting the Gifts player off a U/B source can be huge.  With no Null Rods or Wastelands, Gifts has very little to worry about when going off.  Even with Wastelands and Null Rods, your game 2 against Gifts becomes something like 65-35, in favor of Gifts. 

Honestly, the tempo you gain from adding a third color cannot be better than that of Wasteland's.

[Khahan]

Fish is an offensive deck, Misdirection fits perfectly fine.  And yes, Misdirection is included for Ancestral, along with the ability to counter other cards.  Of course Fish doesn't have threats on par with Will or Tinker, so why wouldn't a Fish deck want more ways to stop those bombs from resolving?

Stax isn't as prevelant as it once was, so I see no reason for worrying. 

I agree on the misdirection. I've chosen a different disruption route and the MisD has helped me with that. As a 1-of, its been fine and there really isn't a match up where it is dead, except for ichorid which I don't typically see in my meta.  It may be less useful against some deck and in game 1. But I think going into game 2, people are going see my little 2/3's and 2/2 as serious threats that are worth fighting a counter-war over.

The fact is, each integral tempo piece you take out of Fish, the less the deck actually does what it wants.  Game 1 against Gifts, Wasteland is huge.  You may not think so, but cutting the Gifts player off a U/B source can be huge.  With no Null Rods or Wastelands, Gifts has very little to worry about when going off.  Even with Wastelands and Null Rods, your game 2 against Gifts becomes something like 65-35, in favor of Gifts. 

Honestly, the tempo you gain from adding a third color cannot be better than that of Wasteland's.

This one, I agree with Brian on. So far, Im not missing the wasteland/strip. But I still think its a good/viable idea for the deck. I will be playtesting it, but I tend to take smaller steps in my changes. Right now, I've changed up 6 cards which warped the early game control suite in my favor.  Once I get a feel for that, I'll decide on the next change, possibly -4 mana drain, +3 waste/+1 strip (or 2 waste/1 strip, crucible for gits and shiggles).


Some of the ideas presented I've written off...only because I've already been through them (like Ninja for example, the creature base I run just isn't conducive to him. But if I have a major change to my creature base, I'll try him again). The rest, I'm taking to heart and will be play testing.

[brianpk80]

Fish is an offensive deck, Misdirection fits perfectly fine.  And yes, Misdirection is included for Ancestral, along with the ability to counter other cards.  Of course Fish doesn't have threats on par with Will or Tinker, so why wouldn't a Fish deck want more ways to stop those bombs from resolving?

This seems to fundamentally misconstrue the role of Fish in today's Vintage metagame.  Pitch Long is an offensive deck.  Meandeck Gifts is an aggressive deck.  Fish is a an "aggro-control" deck that will have to adopt the role of the permissor in either of those match-ups if it has any chance to win.  Whether that control involes Null Rods, Root Mazes, Forces of Will, Duress, Tormod's Crypt, Strip Mine, and so forth is beside the point.  Fish wins by preventing its opponents from winning.  It's reactive.

Secondly, if everyone in your metagame is playing Meandeck Gifts and you can expect Merchant Scroll for Ancestral to be the opposing opening play more than half the time, then yes, Misdirection is a good metagame call.  If there's a lot of UW Fish with maindeck Swords to Plowshares then it's also a reasonable maindeck choice.  But, absent catching the Ancestral that enables them, Misdirection does nothing on its own to stop Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Trinisphere, Oath of Druids, Animate Dead, Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage, Balance, Goblin Lackey/Piledriver, Pyroclasm, Triskelion, and a long list of other cards no Fish player should ever want to see on the other side of the table.   

The fact is, each integral tempo piece you take out of Fish, the less the deck actually does what it wants.  Game 1 against Gifts, Wasteland is huge.  You may not think so, but cutting the Gifts player off a U/B source can be huge.  With no Null Rods or Wastelands, Gifts has very little to worry about when going off.  Even with Wastelands and Null Rods, your game 2 against Gifts becomes something like 65-35, in favor of Gifts. 

First, Fish decks are so variable in their construction that there is no unitary or monolithic path to vicotry that they all must share.  UR Fish is dramatically different from Sullivan Solution, which is a lot different from Vinelasher Kudzu, etc.  Some Fish decks, like Null Rod Fish, win by bottlenecking the opponent's mana base and coupling that with some raw aggro like Savannah Lions.  Other decks, more in the vein of Vial Fish, win by identifying the most popular win conditions and strategies in the field and abusing cheap foils to counter them (Gilded Drake, True Believer, Tormod's Crypt and others).  There is more than one way of designing a reactive deck and they don't all require Wasteland.

Second, if you want to cut Gifts off (first of all, good luck), you're probably going to want Stifle and Strip Mine, not Wasteland.  Good Gifts players do not gratuitously fetch out Underground Seas or Volcanic Islands against Fish until they are about to win. 

Finally, Fish is a bad match-up for Gifts.  Period.  Even Steve Menendian, the creator of Meandeck Gifts, acknowledged this in the Vintage Forum, so I'm not sure where you're pulling these "65-35%" percentages from. 

Honestly, the tempo you gain from adding a third color cannot be better than that of Wasteland's.

In my UW/b build I prefer Dark Confidant to Wasteland.  In my UW/r build, I liked Gorilla Shamans and Blasts in the sideboard more than Wasteland.  Both of the players here who have piloted Fish without Wastelands disagree with their auto-inclusion.  I used to begin every deck I built with four Wastelands and one Strip Mine and proceed from there.  But now having had a more open mind and experimenting accordingly has given me a different perspective.  Wasteland is simply not what it once was because the metagame is still reeling from a period of Stax domination.  The mana bases in most Tier One decks uniformly reflect a backlash against Wasteland that weakens it considerably.  It doesn't belong in every aggro-control deck. 

-BPK   

[AmbivalentDuck]

Brian mentions colors as helping to direct card choices, but I also want to mention play styles.  I personally like my Fish pretty proactive.  While it's offtopic-ish, the most successful Fish deck I've built is actually BRw with very few non-interactive elements.  I'd actually characterize it as more interactive than any Fish deck I've seen. 

I feel that UGb has a "better" option open to it: interacting strongly, but only when it wants to.  Pygmy Hippo can let you stop interacting while giving you a tempo boost.  This fuels "combos" with Okiba Gang Shinobi and Ninja of the Deep Hours that put you at a distinct advantage for interacting during your opponent's turn.  Since the colorless mana provided can power out Null Rod and *large* chalices (Chalice for 2 or 3 is very hard to resolve under normal conditions), you can essentially play a tempo-based game that favors your method of interacting (pitch counters).  You would keep card advantage through the Ninjutsu creatures and Dark Confidant.

You would back this with Root Maze and Wasteland to maximize the difference in tempo.  This build could also painlessly include Sword of Fire and Ice which would give you a god-like mirror match.

[Zarathustra]

This seems to fundamentally misconstrue the role of Fish in today's Vintage metagame.  Pitch Long is an offensive deck.  Meandeck Gifts is an aggressive deck.  Fish is a an "aggro-control" deck that will have to adopt the role of the permissor in either of those match-ups if it has any chance to win.  Whether that control involes Null Rods, Root Mazes, Forces of Will, Duress, Tormod's Crypt, Strip Mine, and so forth is beside the point.  Fish wins by preventing its opponents from winning.  It's reactive.

Fish is offensive.  I have no idea why you seem to think it's the permissor against Gifts.  It has to gain some sort of foothold on the gamestate.  This is where Wastelands/Strip, Null Rods, Stifles, all come into play.  After the foothold, it's the aggressor.  Honestly, if Fish were to try and play control with Gifts, it would lose.  Gifts is a much better control deck than Fish could be.  You apply pressure with Fish, then you control the game.  You don't do it the other way around.

Secondly, if everyone in your metagame is playing Meandeck Gifts and you can expect Merchant Scroll for Ancestral to be the opposing opening play more than half the time, then yes, Misdirection is a good metagame call.  If there's a lot of UW Fish with maindeck Swords to Plowshares then it's also a reasonable maindeck choice.  But, absent catching the Ancestral that enables them, Misdirection does nothing on its own to stop Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Trinisphere, Oath of Druids, Animate Dead, Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage, Balance, Goblin Lackey/Piledriver, Pyroclasm, Triskelion, and a long list of other cards no Fish player should ever want to see on the other side of the table.

Do you guys even play against Gifts...  Like at all?  Merchant Scroll for Ancestral is the ideal turn one play, every game.  Ideal.  No, I know that's not always gonna happen, but if you run 4 Merchant Scrolls and the Ancestral, that's very likely.  I know MisD does nothing to counter the bombs in Gifts.  But, it does allow you to win counterwars.  Daze won't help you much against those counterwars.   

First, Fish decks are so variable in their construction that there is no unitary or monolithic path to vicotry that they all must share.  UR Fish is dramatically different from Sullivan Solution, which is a lot different from Vinelasher Kudzu, etc.  Some Fish decks, like Null Rod Fish, win by bottlenecking the opponent's mana base and coupling that with some raw aggro like Savannah Lions.  Other decks, more in the vein of Vial Fish, win by identifying the most popular win conditions and strategies in the field and abusing cheap foils to counter them (Gilded Drake, True Believer, Tormod's Crypt and others).  There is more than one way of designing a reactive deck and they don't all require Wasteland.

They are variable.  But, you're missing the whole point.  To call a deck Fish, means to have some sort of tempo elements in the deck.  Most of your examples, SS, UR, even WTF had Wastelands/Strip, Stifles, Null Rod, etc.  True Believer and Crypt is no way to win the game against Gifts.  Sure, it's an inconveince, but sooner or later a Massacre or Pyroclasm ruins your day and then they just go off.  Wastelands/Strip is one of the most integral parts of the deck.

Second, if you want to cut Gifts off (first of all, good luck), you're probably going to want Stifle and Strip Mine, not Wasteland.  Good Gifts players do not gratuitously fetch out Underground Seas or Volcanic Islands against Fish until they are about to win.

What?  Cut Gifts off from ?  Dude, the deck plays basic Islands.  You want to cut them off from or , not blue.  Thus, the reason why Wastelands/Strip is so good.  The Gifts player is gonna have to fetch his non-basics sooner or later, even if it can get Wastelanded. 

Finally, Fish is a bad match-up for Gifts.  Period.  Even Steve Menendian, the creator of Meandeck Gifts, acknowledged this in the Vintage Forum, so I'm not sure where you're pulling these "65-35%" percentages from.

I would love to play against this version or your version BPK.  All day, everyday.  Neither of these truly hinder Gifts mana production or tempo.  Gifts reaches critical mass as fast as turn 2-3.  Did Steve say this about your decks?  Because, I play Gifts, too.  I don't have to be Steve Menendian to know that these decks hardly produce a hinderance for Gifts. 

In my UW/b build I prefer Dark Confidant to Wasteland.  In my UW/r build, I liked Gorilla Shamans and Blasts in the sideboard more than Wasteland.  Both of the players here who have piloted Fish without Wastelands disagree with their auto-inclusion.  I used to begin every deck I built with four Wastelands and one Strip Mine and proceed from there.  But now having had a more open mind and experimenting accordingly has given me a different perspective.  Wasteland is simply not what it once was because the metagame is still reeling from a period of Stax domination.  The mana bases in most Tier One decks uniformly reflect a backlash against Wasteland that weakens it considerably.  It doesn't belong in every aggro-control deck. 

-BPK   

I have no idea how Confidant even compares to Wasteland.  Bob gains card advantage, sure, but he does nothing to stop Gifts(or PL) from achieving critical mass.  Nor does he gain you the tempo that Fish wants.

The decline in Stax has brought two other monsters to the forefront - Gifts and PL.  Wastelands/Strip are still good against Gifts and can be some good against PL.  Null Rod hurts both, sure, PL can win before it becomes a problem.

-DShell

[Imsomniac101]

@ Ambivalent Duck:

Pygmy Hippo seems like an awesome card. I have several ideas I want to implement in a new aggro-control deck I'm developing/tweaking. Will get that done once my exams are out of the way. Will be about 2 months.

@Zarathruster:
You clearly have absolutely no idea about what you're talking about. I don't know where you get your miscontrued views from.

[Implacable]

While there's no need to bring personal attacks to this argument, I agree in principle with Zarathustra.  As is, Gifts would pretty easily crush this deck.  Few of the cards in it are an inconvenience, and without the mana denial that almost all Fish decks possess, Gifts can go off easily.  I encourage doubters of this line of reasoning to think about Gifts' traditionally bad matchups: Stax and Fish.  The only thing that those two decks have in common is fast, consistent mana disruption.  The only thing that stops Gifts from going off is a lack of mana, and Rod Fish/Stax keep them away from their precious fuel with Chalices, Rods, Wastes, Strips, and Stifles.  If you are not using any of those, which are considered the best mana denial of the format, then you will not be able to beat a deck that runs both the most broken cards in the format and the most ways to find them!

[brianpk80]

Fish is offensive.  I have no idea why you seem to think it's the permissor against Gifts.  It has to gain some sort of foothold on the gamestate.  This is where Wastelands/Strip, Null Rods, Stifles, all come into play.  After the foothold, it's the aggressor.  Honestly, if Fish were to try and play control with Gifts, it would lose.  Gifts is a much better control deck than Fish could be.  You apply pressure with Fish, then you control the game.  You don't do it the other way around.

Fish is the permissor.  It's not going to go anywhere fast against decks that aim to goldfish in the first three/four turns.  If you don't realize this and you throw everything out in a manic rush to bring the opponent down to zero, you'll inevitably lose. 

Fish has two goals when it plays against Gifts.  1. Stop/Neutralize Tinker.  2. Stop/Neutralize Yawgmoth's Will (or a huge Rebuild).  It doesn't matter whether you accomplish this with Chain of Vapor, Tormod's Crypt, Null Rod, Planar Void, Duress, Force of Will, Wasteland, Gilded Drake, Meddling Mage, Gorilla Shaman, Children of Korlis, Chalice of the Void, or True Believer.  If Fish fails to react to or preempt Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will, it will lose.  That is textbook control/permission.  While I can see why you would mistake any of the above cards for "offense" merely because they are so intrinsically obnoxious, their primary role is to control and contain the opponent's game plan.  The fact that you misapprehend Fish as the aggressor in this match-up goes a long way in illustrating why you mistakenly believe it so favors Gifts. 

Do you guys even play against Gifts...  Like at all?  Merchant Scroll for Ancestral is the ideal turn one play, every game.  Ideal.  No, I know that's not always gonna happen, but if you run 4 Merchant Scrolls and the Ancestral, that's very likely.  I know MisD does nothing to counter the bombs in Gifts.  But, it does allow you to win counterwars.  Daze won't help you much against those counterwars.   

Lose the insults; they go nowhere in advancing your point.  Khahan is an excellent player that I've tested with several times, and given his considerable experience with Slaver, I'm willing to bet he's faced Gifts countless times.  I've played against Gifts forever and in fact played Gifts itself when the Flame-Vault combo was legal.  But that's beside the point.  Questioning someone's experience with a given deck is a poor substitute for countering their points head on. 

As for Daze, I've argued against its inclusion since day one.  We seem to agree here. 

They are variable.  But, you're missing the whole point.  To call a deck Fish, means to have some sort of tempo elements in the deck.  Most of your examples, SS, UR, even WTF had Wastelands/Strip, Stifles, Null Rod, etc.  True Believer and Crypt is no way to win the game against Gifts.  Sure, it's an inconveince, but sooner or later a Massacre or Pyroclasm ruins your day and then they just go off.  Wastelands/Strip is one of the most integral parts of the deck.

Massacre and Pyroclasm are old news.  Any Fish player worth their weight in salt is well aware of the type of strategy hosers they can expect to see post-sideboard.  Good Fish players will not overextend and walk right into them.  I'm not sure why you feel that hosers like Massacre and Pyroclasm are so devastating against Fish while you quickly dismiss the effect of Tormod's Crypt on Gifts.  Meandeck Gifts is by far the most Crypt-sensitive Drain or Ritual build the field has seen all year. 

What?  Cut Gifts off from ?  Dude, the deck plays basic Islands.  You want to cut them off from or , not blue.  Thus, the reason why Wastelands/Strip is so good.  The Gifts player is gonna have to fetch his non-basics sooner or later, even if it can get Wastelanded. 

A good Gifts player would only fetch those (absent desperate circumstances) at EoT to cast Gifts and then untap and win anyway.  You're not going stop Gifts for Will, Recoup, Academy, Lotus with a Wasteland. 

I would love to play against this version or your version BPK.  All day, everyday.  Neither of these truly hinder Gifts mana production or tempo.  Gifts reaches critical mass as fast as turn 2-3.  Did Steve say this about your decks?  Because, I play Gifts, too.  I don't have to be Steve Menendian to know that these decks hardly produce a hinderance for Gifts. 

You misread my statement.  What I said was that Fish is a difficult match for Gifts, meaning that it is unfavorable for Gifts.  I'm not in the habit of quoting other players or "big names" but I think in this case, where the creator and cultivator of this deck has been freely discussing its difficulty v. Fish and soliciting input, that it's particularly relevant to the discussion. 

If you want to play a few matches, private message me.

-BPK

[Zarathustra]

@Zarathruster:
You clearly have absolutely no idea about what you're talking about. I don't know where you get your miscontrued views from.

If you're gonna insult me, at least try to add something to the discussion.  Why do you feel my views are miscontrued?  Explain and I'll consider taking you seriously.

Fish is the permissor.  It's not going to go anywhere fast against decks that aim to goldfish in the first three/four turns.  If you don't realize this and you throw everything out in a manic rush to bring the opponent down to zero, you'll inevitably lose.

No.  Fish, is the controller.  The permissor means it will attempt to out-counter Fish.  Gifts is the best control deck in the environment.  Steve stated this.  Fish wants powered decks to play it's game.   

Fish has two goals when it plays against Gifts.  1. Stop/Neutralize Tinker.  2. Stop/Neutralize Yawgmoth's Will (or a huge Rebuild).  It doesn't matter whether you accomplish this with Chain of Vapor, Tormod's Crypt, Null Rod, Planar Void, Duress, Force of Will, Wasteland, Gilded Drake, Meddling Mage, Gorilla Shaman, Children of Korlis, Chalice of the Void, or True Believer.  If Fish fails to react to or preempt Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will, it will lose.  That is textbook control/permission.  While I can see why you would mistake any of the above cards for "offense" merely because they are so intrinsically obnoxious, their primary role is to control and contain the opponent's game plan.  The fact that you misapprehend Fish as the aggressor in this match-up goes a long way in illustrating why you mistakenly believe it so favors Gifts.

Ok.  Let's go with this.  Fish needs to:

1. Stop/Neutralize Tinker
2. Stop Neutralize Yawgmoth's Will

1. Stopping or neutralizing Tinker -  This deck appears to be missing Swords to Plowshares.  How can you possibly stop one of Fishes biggest threats if you are missing the best removal card printed?  Naming Tinker with Meddling Mage is rather futile.  Sure this deck has two Azorious Guildmages, but that's rather slow.

2. Stopping or neutralizing Yawgmoth's Will - This deck has Trinket Mage ---> Crypt and Root Maze to stop Yawgmoth's Will.  Yet, the deck can still achieve critical mass without Null Rod and Wasteland/Strip Mine.  And the deck can get to 4+ mana very fast.  Furthermore, without the ability to slow Gifts mana production, you are at a severe disadvantage.  Gifts can also out-draw and out-counter this particular build of Fish.

This deck does neither very efficiently.  You can name all the cards that can potentially stifle Gifts from getting Colossus or going broken with Will.  But, when you name all creatures, which Gifts can easily deal with.  Furthemore, none of these creatures stop Gifts from getting to critical mass, they are just hiccups.

Lose the insults; they go nowhere in advancing your point.  Khahan is an excellent player that I've tested with several times, and given his considerable experience with Slaver, I'm willing to bet he's faced Gifts countless times.  I've played against Gifts forever and in fact played Gifts itself when the Flame-Vault combo was legal.  But that's beside the point.  Questioning someone's experience with a given deck is a poor substitute for countering their points head on.

This was no insult.  Have you even tested this deck against Gifts?  Because, I would like to know what the results are.  My arguments are rooted in the fact that I've tested against Fish a lot.  I know what I fear in the deck.  When I see those cards absent from the list, I see real way Gifts can lose 35%-60% against this deck.  Also, I stated that game TWO, Gifts just wrecks Fish.  That's with Null Rod and Wasteland.  There's no way.  You may be a friend of Khahan, but to tell me you think he's tested against Gifts doesn't mean he has. 

Massacre and Pyroclasm are old news.  Any Fish player worth their weight in salt is well aware of the type of strategy hosers they can expect to see post-sideboard.  Good Fish players will not overextend and walk right into them.  I'm not sure why you feel that hosers like Massacre and Pyroclasm are so devastating against Fish while you quickly dismiss the effect of Tormod's Crypt on Gifts.  Meandeck Gifts is by far the most Crypt-sensitive Drain or Ritual build the field has seen all year.

The point is, you're giving the Gifts player the ability to cast one spell before they have to go off.  With spells like Null Rod, you need to find a Chain or a Hurkyl's, then deal with whatever creatures are on the board, if need be.  With very few tempo based threats, all I need to find is a Massacre or a Pyroclasm and then go broken.  Old news or not, they are still threats that wreck everything but Grunt.

People are so certain that Crypt just wrecks Gifts.  If this were the case, Gifts would have been chased out of the metagame months ago.  The fact of the matter is, if there is a Crypt on the board, and I have no way to Tendrils you out, I will certainly be getting Big Fatty McBeatstick.  Since this deck doesn't seem to have Swords to Plowshares, I can just combo out with him.  Against this deck, if Crypt was out, I could just as easily find Hurkyl's and Tendrils, bounce everything, replay it and Tendrils you ftw.

There is better hate than Crypt.    

A good Gifts player would only fetch those (absent desperate circumstances) at EoT to cast Gifts and then untap and win anyway.  You're not going stop Gifts for Will, Recoup, Academy, Lotus with a Wasteland.

Gifts often does draw other lands besides fetches and Islands.  So, when they do, having Wasteland/Strip to keep them off a color or to stop them from reaching critical mass, it's good.  Again, it's about tempo.  I don't see why you're missing the whole idea of tempo.  I'm fully aware that when any deck goes broken, Wasteland doesn't help.  Wasteland can even be relevant in a PL match.   

You misread my statement.  What I said was that Fish is a difficult match for Gifts, meaning that it is unfavorable for Gifts.  I'm not in the habit of quoting other players or "big names" but I think in this case, where the creator and cultivator of this deck has been freely discussing its difficulty v. Fish and soliciting input, that it's particularly relevant to the discussion.

I've been reading up on your other thread and half the comments I've read seem to go along the same lines as I do.  Said person has not offered any advice on this deck, so you honestly don't know what his comments are on this particular deck.  My real world testing does give me some idea how this deck would do, I can't see how this deck can beat Gifts.