playing a spell/playing a token

[DiTAR]

Hi all.

We're having some doubts with what "play a spell" is.

Herd Gnarr
Whenever another creature comes into play under your control, Herd Gnarr gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
When a token comes into play herd gnarr gets +2/+2?

Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
Whenever you play a creature spell, put X 1/1 black Thrull creature tokens into play, where X is that spell's converted mana cost.
When you control seven or more Thrulls, sacrifice Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder.
Tokens have converted cost 0, but would they trigger Endrek otherwise?

When a suspended card enters play it's considered a spell?

Thanks in advance.

[49 Cents]

Hi all.

We're having some doubts with what "play a spell" is.

Herd Gnarr
Whenever another creature comes into play under your control, Herd Gnarr gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
When a token comes into play herd gnarr gets +2/+2?

A creature token is a creature, yes.

Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
Whenever you play a creature spell, put X 1/1 black Thrull creature tokens into play, where X is that spell's converted mana cost.
When you control seven or more Thrulls, sacrifice Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder.
Tokens have converted cost 0, but would they trigger Endrek otherwise?

You can't 'play' a token. Only put them into play with spells or effects.

When a suspended card enters play it's considered a spell?

When you play the suspended card it is a spell. So yes, your Endrek triggers.

[Khahan]

When a suspended card enters play it's considered a spell?

Thanks in advance.

Just to be absolutely technical, when the suspend card enters play, you've already played it and the endrik will have already triggered.

During your upkeep, you remove the last counter from the suspend card. You then have the option to play that card w/out paying its mana cost. If you do, it goes on the stack. This is the point at which Endrik will trigger. Endrik resolves, THEN the suspend card resolves and enters play.

End result is the same answer: Yes, it will trigger Endrik. But there are some timing issues in between. 

[parallax]

The important thing, and what confuses most newer players, is that there is a very big difference between "comes into play" and "play a spell". When you play something, it refers to the specific act of playing a card from your hand, or from another place if an effect allows you. Read the text on suspend carefully to see what I mean.

"When the last is removed, play it without paying its mana cost."

Suspend specifically states that you are playing the spell.

"Comes into play" refers to something entering the in-play zone. This is not the same as playing it. Most of the time a permanent comes into play as a result of you playing it, but in some cases, a permanent comes into play without being played. This is the case for token-generating effects, cards like Flickering Spirit, or Dragonstorm. Note those cards read "return to play" or "put into play".

The key is to note whether "play" is being used as a verb or a noun. The verb "play" refers to the act of playing a spell. The noun "play" refers to the in-play zone and is usually seen as "comes into play", "put into play" or "return to play". None of those actions is "playing" anything. They won't trigger Endrek, but they will trigger Glade Gnarr. Note that playing a creature spell usually results in the creature coming into play, so will trigger both Endrek and Glade Gnarr. In certain circumstances, such as if the spell is countered, the spell was played, but never came into play, and would trigger Endrek but not Glade Gnarr.

Any questions or clarifications needed?

[Apollyon]

You can't 'play' a token. Only put them into play with spells or effects.

Actually, that's not entirely true. You can play a token.

How to play a token:
1) Play a Soul Foundry, imprinting a Panglacial Wurm. Create a token using the Foundry.
2) Play a Darksteel Colossus and an Ashnod's Altar.
3) Cytoshape the Panglacial Wurm token into a copy of the Darksteel Colossus.
4) Play a spell that allows you to search your library.
5) Announce a Panglacial Wurm that's in your library and pay for it sacrificing the Panglacial-Wurm-that's-been-turned-into-Darksteel-Colossus token with Ashnod's Altar. The token gets shuffled into your library, because of Darksteel Colossus's ability. Since SBEs aren't checked to cause it to cease to exist, the token is in your library with all of the text that Panglacial Wurm has, including "While you're searching your library, you may play Panglacial Wurm from your library." Play the Panglacial Wurm token (its mana cost gets copied).

[Harlequin]

You can't 'play' a token. Only put them into play with spells or effects.

Actually, that's not entirely true. You can play a token.

How to play a token:
1) Play a Soul Foundry, imprinting a Panglacial Wurm. Create a token using the Foundry.
2) Play a Darksteel Colossus and an Ashnod's Altar.
3) Cytoshape the Panglacial Wurm token into a copy of the Darksteel Colossus.
4) Play a spell that allows you to search your library.
5) Announce a Panglacial Wurm that's in your library and pay for it sacrificing the Panglacial-Wurm-that's-been-turned-into-Darksteel-Colossus token with Ashnod's Altar. The token gets shuffled into your library, because of Darksteel Colossus's ability. Since SBEs aren't checked to cause it to cease to exist, the token is in your library with all of the text that Panglacial Wurm has, including "While you're searching your library, you may play Panglacial Wurm from your library." Play the Panglacial Wurm token (its mana cost gets copied).

by definition of the token, wouldn't it have to have a mana cost of {}?  or does cytoshape copy Manacost as well. 

[Khahan]

You can't 'play' a token. Only put them into play with spells or effects.

Actually, that's not entirely true. You can play a token.

How to play a token:
1) Play a Soul Foundry, imprinting a Panglacial Wurm. Create a token using the Foundry.
2) Play a Darksteel Colossus and an Ashnod's Altar.
3) Cytoshape the Panglacial Wurm token into a copy of the Darksteel Colossus.
4) Play a spell that allows you to search your library.
5) Announce a Panglacial Wurm that's in your library and pay for it sacrificing the Panglacial-Wurm-that's-been-turned-into-Darksteel-Colossus token with Ashnod's Altar. The token gets shuffled into your library, because of Darksteel Colossus's ability. Since SBEs aren't checked to cause it to cease to exist, the token is in your library with all of the text that Panglacial Wurm has, including "While you're searching your library, you may play Panglacial Wurm from your library." Play the Panglacial Wurm token (its mana cost gets copied).

This should not work.  Tokens in another zone do cease to exist as  state-based effect, but that is irrelevant. There are 2 parts to the token rules about zone changes:

216.3. A token in a zone other than the in-play zone ceases to exist. This is a state-based effect. (Note that a token changing zones sets off triggered abilities before the token ceases to exist.) Once a token has left play, it can't be returned to play by any means.

[parallax]

You can't 'play' a token. Only put them into play with spells or effects.

Actually, that's not entirely true. You can play a token.

How to play a token:
1) Play a Soul Foundry, imprinting a Panglacial Wurm. Create a token using the Foundry.
2) Play a Darksteel Colossus and an Ashnod's Altar.
3) Cytoshape the Panglacial Wurm token into a copy of the Darksteel Colossus.
4) Play a spell that allows you to search your library.
5) Announce a Panglacial Wurm that's in your library and pay for it sacrificing the Panglacial-Wurm-that's-been-turned-into-Darksteel-Colossus token with Ashnod's Altar. The token gets shuffled into your library, because of Darksteel Colossus's ability. Since SBEs aren't checked to cause it to cease to exist, the token is in your library with all of the text that Panglacial Wurm has, including "While you're searching your library, you may play Panglacial Wurm from your library." Play the Panglacial Wurm token (its mana cost gets copied).

by definition of the token, wouldn't it have to have a mana cost of {}?  or does cytoshape copy Manacost as well. 

All copy effects copy mana cost. It's a copiable value. People usually misapply the "tokens have no mana cost" rule to copy tokens. By default, tokens have no mana cost, but tokens that are copies of another card have that card's mana cost.

When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics (name, mana cost, color, type, supertype, subtype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, and toughness)

216.3. A token in a zone other than the in-play zone ceases to exist. This is a state-based effect. (Note that a token changing zones sets off triggered abilities before the token ceases to exist.) Once a token has left play, it can’t be returned to play by any means.

It's true that the token cannot return to play. In fact, once you play the token from your library, it goes on the stack. When you finish searching your library and fully resolve the spell that let you search it, state-based effects are checked. They see a token in a zone other than play (the stack, in this case) and remove it from the game. However, that scenario still allows you to play the token. It just never resolves.

[King_minos]

During your upkeep, you remove the last counter from the suspend card. You then have the option to play that card w/out paying its mana cost. If you do, it goes on the stack. This is the point at which Endrik will trigger. Endrik resolves, THEN the suspend card resolves and enters play.

When you remove the last time counter, you don't have the option. you have to play it. that means lotus bloom has to be played as a spell, even if you don't want to play it. (chalice for zero in play)

[Apollyon]

You can't 'play' a token. Only put them into play with spells or effects.

Actually, that's not entirely true. You can play a token.

How to play a token:
1) Play a Soul Foundry, imprinting a Panglacial Wurm. Create a token using the Foundry.
2) Play a Darksteel Colossus and an Ashnod's Altar.
3) Cytoshape the Panglacial Wurm token into a copy of the Darksteel Colossus.
4) Play a spell that allows you to search your library.
5) Announce a Panglacial Wurm that's in your library and pay for it sacrificing the Panglacial-Wurm-that's-been-turned-into-Darksteel-Colossus token with Ashnod's Altar. The token gets shuffled into your library, because of Darksteel Colossus's ability. Since SBEs aren't checked to cause it to cease to exist, the token is in your library with all of the text that Panglacial Wurm has, including "While you're searching your library, you may play Panglacial Wurm from your library." Play the Panglacial Wurm token (its mana cost gets copied).

This should not work.  Tokens in another zone do cease to exist as  state-based effect, but that is irrelevant. There are 2 parts to the token rules about zone changes:

216.3. A token in a zone other than the in-play zone ceases to exist. This is a state-based effect. (Note that a token changing zones sets off triggered abilities before the token ceases to exist.) Once a token has left play, it can't be returned to play by any means.

This is Official from Wizards. The bolded part should be ignored. Tokens can return to play if they are returned before State-Based Effects are checked.

[49 Cents]

You can't 'play' a token. Only put them into play with spells or effects.

Actually, that's not entirely true. You can play a token.

How to play a token:
1) Play a Soul Foundry, imprinting a Panglacial Wurm. Create a token using the Foundry.
2) Play a Darksteel Colossus and an Ashnod's Altar.
3) Cytoshape the Panglacial Wurm token into a copy of the Darksteel Colossus.
4) Play a spell that allows you to search your library.
5) Announce a Panglacial Wurm that's in your library and pay for it sacrificing the Panglacial-Wurm-that's-been-turned-into-Darksteel-Colossus token with Ashnod's Altar. The token gets shuffled into your library, because of Darksteel Colossus's ability. Since SBEs aren't checked to cause it to cease to exist, the token is in your library with all of the text that Panglacial Wurm has, including "While you're searching your library, you may play Panglacial Wurm from your library." Play the Panglacial Wurm token (its mana cost gets copied).

I lol'd

[vroman]

How to play a token:
1) Play a Soul Foundry, imprinting a Panglacial Wurm. Create a token using the Foundry.
2) Play a Darksteel Colossus and an Ashnod's Altar.
3) Cytoshape the Panglacial Wurm token into a copy of the Darksteel Colossus.
4) Play a spell that allows you to search your library.
5) Announce a Panglacial Wurm that's in your library and pay for it sacrificing the Panglacial-Wurm-that's-been-turned-into-Darksteel-Colossus token with Ashnod's Altar. The token gets shuffled into your library, because of Darksteel Colossus's ability. Since SBEs aren't checked to cause it to cease to exist, the token is in your library with all of the text that Panglacial Wurm has, including "While you're searching your library, you may play Panglacial Wurm from your library." Play the Panglacial Wurm token (its mana cost gets copied).

why does the token regain panglacial wurm text in the library?
if a real creature card has been cytoshaped into anything, and gets shuffled into library, then of course it returns to its native state. however once a token has been changed into some other kind of token, does it have any memory of being its original token self? so if a token dsteel colosusus gets shuffled into the library, then shouldnt it just sit there being a dsteel token, waiting to be erased by state-effects?

[Komatteru]

so if a token dsteel colosusus gets shuffled into the library, then shouldnt it just sit there being a dsteel token, waiting to be erased by state-effects?

It stops becoming a DSK when it enters a new zone, i.e., the library, and reverts to what it was originally.  If you used Monentary Blink on a Clone (copying anything), when the creature returns to play, it will enter as a Clone, and you will be able to choose a new creature to copy.  Similarly, if you Momentary Blink a Meddling Mage, it will lose track of whatever card it was naming, and you will name a new card when it enters play.  This is because objects that enter from another zone are treated as new objects.  For instance, if your opponent casts Terror on your Mage, and you cast Momentary Blink on it, the Terror will be countered because the Mage that it targeted does not exist anymore--the one in play went out of the zone temporarily, and it entered as a new Meddling Mage, so Terror lost track of it.

[Harlequin]

Right but I see his point.  Why does the token revert back to the Wurm?  it wasn't "orginially" a wurm ... it was a copy of the wurm.  So you have: (DSC copied onto a (copy of a Wurm copied onto a (token))).  Why when it changes zones is it no-longer a copy of a DSC but retains its status as a copy of Wurm?

[Apollyon]

Because it was created as a copy of the Wurm. There was never a point that it existed that it wasn't a Wurm previous to the Cytoshape. It begins its existence as a Wurm.

Soul Foundry |Artifact| Imprint -- When Soul Foundry comes into play, you may remove a creature card in your hand from the game. (The removed card is imprinted on this artifact.) / X, T: Put a token into play that's a copy of the imprinted creature card. X is the converted mana cost of that card. MRD-R [Legal in Vin Leg Ext.]

[parallax]

Soul Foundry sets the base characteristics of the token. Any other changes are applied on top of those.

The token is a "Panglacial Wurm copy token" with a "This creature is a copy of Darksteel Collosus." effect on it, not a "token" with a "This creature is a copy of Panglacial Wurm." and a "This creature is a copy of Darksteel Collosus." effect on it.

[jro]

5) Announce a Panglacial Wurm that's in your library and pay for it sacrificing the Panglacial-Wurm-that's-been-turned-into-Darksteel-Colossus token with Ashnod's Altar. The token gets shuffled into your library, because of Darksteel Colossus's ability. Since SBEs aren't checked to cause it to cease to exist, the token is in your library with all of the text that Panglacial Wurm has, including "While you're searching your library, you may play Panglacial Wurm from your library." Play the Panglacial Wurm token (its mana cost gets copied).

When you go to play the Panglacial Wurm from your library, are you playing the token or a different Panglacial Wurm?  I don't see how you can play the token, since it isn't in your library yet.  That said, once the token is in the library (because you've played the actual Wurm), I'd think you can play the token then, since you can play multiple Panglacial Wurms off a single search effect.

[diopter]

5) Announce a Panglacial Wurm that's in your library and pay for it sacrificing the Panglacial-Wurm-that's-been-turned-into-Darksteel-Colossus token with Ashnod's Altar. The token gets shuffled into your library, because of Darksteel Colossus's ability. Since SBEs aren't checked to cause it to cease to exist, the token is in your library with all of the text that Panglacial Wurm has, including "While you're searching your library, you may play Panglacial Wurm from your library." Play the Panglacial Wurm token (its mana cost gets copied).

When you go to play the Panglacial Wurm from your library, are you playing the token or a different Panglacial Wurm? I don't see how you can play the token, since it isn't in your library yet. That said, once the token is in the library (because you've played the actual Wurm), I'd think you can play the token then, since you can play multiple Panglacial Wurms off a single search effect.

If I am correct, this is because you are playing the Panglacial Wurm with Ashnod's altar's mana ability. I think this is how the order goes:

1.) Announce the spell (Panglacial Wurm)
2.) Pay its costs (here you can play mana abilities like Ashnod's Altar, sacrificing the Wurm which immediately gets shuffled back into the library)
3.) Put the spell onto the stack (at this point, you can grab the Wurm token and put it [as a spell] onto the stack)

I wish Ashnod's Altar was legal in MTGO so that we could see how this works. Anybody know of any suitlable replacement for Altar (sacrificing mana-ability) that could be used to test this in MTGO?

EDIT: Phyrexian Altar from Invasion reads:

Phyrexian Altar
3
Artifact
Sacrifice a creature: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

So this combo is in fact, legal in MTGO. Someone have the cards online to verify that this works?

[Apollyon]

I doubt that MTGO does it correctly. It's one of the cornerest (You know what I mean) corner cases that currently exists.