[Deck] Deck improvement needed on "new" ichorid deck

[Blauw]

Hi People,

I'm trying to make a ichorid deck that's a little bit different than previous decks. I'll first give the decklist.

Land/mana:
4x bazaar of Baghdad
12x Island
1x Mox Sapphire

Creatures:
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari-Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp
2x Nicol Bolas
4x Nether shadow
4x Ichorid

Utilities
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Chalice of the void
4x Careful Study
4x Brainstorm
1x Ancestral Recall
2x Dread Return
2x Dragon Breath

The idea is simple. Use bazaar and stuff like carefull study to get some nice dredge spells into your graveyard. Use card drawing (brainstorm/recall/study) to abuse dredge to fill up your graveyard. Then use the undead creatures to swing at your opponent. You can also sac them to therapy for disruption, or you can make advantage of dread return to bring out a big fellow (nicol bolas for instance, but things like duplicant or sundering titan are also possible) and disrupt/kill/annoy your opponent. Dragon breath is there to give the creature haste.
This deck is really fast and pre sideboarding it's going to kill your opponent on your third turn.
The only problem is after sideboarding.....Tormod's crypt is not Fun! But your sideboard consists of pithing needles and annul. And ofcourse you have mainboard chalice.

Please give me your thoughts and ideas on this deck!

[zulander]

The first thing I saw was that there aren't any swamps/underground Seas. I'd do -6 Island +4 Polluted delta +2 Underground Sea. Being able to hardcast a cabal therepy then use it's flashback is tech. Also, a random hardcast ichorid isn't the end of the world either. And maybe add +4 Fow?

[Blauw]

I don't think you need black mana. You won't hardcast Cabal therapies because it's a huge tempo lost. The first two turns you only play utilities (brainstorm etc). You will never have enough mana to hardcast ichorid. This is also the reason I don't play time walk. I could add in a black lotus but I don't think you need the mana.
 Fow's are also not necessary. You are not afraid of anything (except graveyard hate).
I thought about fetch but these are also not necessary! They can be stifled and don't add any profound advantages.

[Jank Golem]

Running Fetches does provide some advantage in Ichorid. It makes Brainstorm more then just another way to dredge, Brainstorm+Fetch can help find Bazaar and just make your draws better overall. I don't like Dread Return, it really seems like a win more. If you have 3 creatures in play with Ichorid then you have already won. It not worth the 6-8 slots in the deck to run Dread Return and the conditions associated with it. I suggest taking a look at Meandeck Ichorid if you haven't yet, and build the deck from there

[meadbert]

As long as you are mono blue run 4 Cephalid Colliseums instead of Islands.  This is VERY important.  I have actually done a lot of testing with Mono Blue Ichorid (with Force of Will even) and I found that the problem is that control decks can beat you by countering the right spells.

Cephalid Colliseum is basically Bazaar 5-8 iif you have another blue source and threshold. 

Also Breakthrough can be pretty sick in the late game.  You don't want multiples in your opponening hand, but being able to dredge 4 times for 1 mana is pretty sick.  I liked Breakthrough better than Brainstorm when I was running the version without Force of Will.

EDIT:  Nicol Bolas is the wrong Creature to Dread Return.  When you lose after getting 3 creatures into play it is usually because your opponent already Tinkered out DSC.  I would suggest ditching the Dragon's Breath and using 2 Dup;licants and 2 Sundering Titan's instead. 

[policehq]

I originally started playing Dread Return in colorless Ichorid as a way to finish the opponent faster, but it doesn't seem like you're doing that.

First of all, if you're sacrificing three creatures with this deck, that's 9 power, and Nicol Bolas is 7 power. Next, your opponent has had three or more turns to play out their hand (or at least the important spells).

Thus, if your opponent has a hand that does not include bounce, a Mana Drain (devastating!), or spot creature removal, you're probably giving them 2 life for a few cards you won't care about in the end.

I think a come into play-ability is more important than a converted mana cost of 6+ or haste so you can attack with your three creatures and flashback Dread Return during your second main phase. Duplicant and Sundering Titan have been suggested, but since I did notice Nicol Bolas's one advantage was that he was a black creature and thus had synnergy with Ichorid and Unmask, I found Laquatus's Champion to be a great choice.

With Laquatus's Champion, you can remove him from the game during your upkeep to feed Ichorid, especially if it looks like Dread Return won't cut it, you can remove him from the game from your hand to cast an early Unmask (for decks that play the card), and you can attack with the three creatures before you sacrifice them to flashback Dread Return. This combination will more than likely cause a loss of life of 15+ for your opponent and end the game more efficiently than any creature named so far.

-hq

[President Skroob]

Could you perhaps show how you play out a couple goldfishes of the deck? I'm just not seeing how it would be superior to a more diversely colored Ichorid build. It still doesn't look like you're going to be winning before turn 3 or turn 4, which is when other Ichorid builds are also set to swing for lethal. I do not see the advantages of running a really draw-heavy mono-blue construction of the deck. It's trading off the power of Ashen Ghoul and the flexibility of a multi-colored manabase (for whatever you want, be it Ancient Grudge, Ray of Revelation, Root Maze, Balance, basically whatever you could think of) for basic lands which can't be Wastelanded. Is that the best option for the deck?

I can understand wanting to go in a new direction, but I'd like to hear the advantages that you're seeing here.

[Darkenslight]

In this deck, I'd really like to see something akin to Akroma if you're going to use Dread Return.

Also, you need more disruption; whoever said that you needed fetches is probably telling the truth, although having not played the deck, I can't honestly say.

[Blauw]

okay I also tried the other ichorid builds before I came up with this decklist. The problems that I experienced with the other decklists were mainly lack of draw engines. I couldn't dump my library fast enough in the graveyard and with the hermit build I experienced a lot of mana screws, especially caused by wastelands. So I tried to analyze the basic concepts of this deck and I think that the fundamental of this type of deck is speed! You have to try to outrun combo decks and siderboard cards. Some cards are impossable to outrun (ie Crypt) but cards like confinements take a few turns before the come into play. Also Tendrils is a real bad matchup unless you can disrupt his whole hand the second turn by therapy-ing him for at least 2-3. So I tried to gain some speed but it causes automatically to lose some control/disruption. I think that you gain a lot of speed by only adding dredge support cards aka card drawing.
When I goldfished this deck, I was able to dump my whole deck in the graveyard by the third turn and occasionally be able to therapy the opponent second turn with 2 therapies at least. Carefull studies are really good...they function as 5-8 bazaars. I'm not that fond of the brainstorm though....it might be better to replace them with breakthroughs. This also makes it less inconvenient when you bazaar is wasted, because it will enable you to discard dredge cards to your library.

The problems that I experienced mostly was the lack of power during the first "big" assault. The lack of ashen ghouls forces another attack/turn to finish the opponent. I tested nicol bolas. If you attack with him during 3th turn, you will basically win because your opponent has nothing left in their hands to kill you. I like the idea of playing laquata's champion instead of nicol bolas if it enables you to win in that turn. I didn't think of the cephalid coliseum but it seems like a very good substitution.

Another more psychological element of this deck is that you play mono blue ! people will expect counters and they will adjust their strategy to it, probably resulting in playing more careful and therefore perhaps slower (gives you better chances of winning I think).

I think this deck has a better potential of winning the first game compared to other ichorid builds but it's much less viable after sideboarding. Too many GY hate is available to disrupt this deck and you have almost nothing you can do against it. (except sideboarding stuff like needles and chains of vapor maybe).

I will also try fetchland. They might work.

Okay their is still a lot of work to do to make this deck tournament viable but I think that this deck is much more agressive because it's focussed on the main thing! Dredging! But we'll have to find a way to overcome the loss of control and disruption, maybe by generating a faster kill.

[policehq]

In this deck, I'd really like to see something akin to Akroma if you're going to use Dread Return.

Would you sacrifice two Ichorids and one Nether Shadow for an Akroma before your attack phase? Why?

Laquatus's Champion accomplishes the same general effect of Akroma or Nicol Bolas but without taking up extra slots for Dragon Breath, etc. In the above scenario, you will attack for seven before causing a life loss of six.

I've tested 5c, colorless, and U/B Ichorid with Dread Return, and in every deck Laquatus's Champion combined with Golgari Grave-Troll has proven the best reanimation targets out of Yosei, Nicol Bolas, Spirit of the Night, and Sutured Ghoul.

-hq

[President Skroob]

I simply don't see the advantage of mono-blue. Even with all the draw, you're still not going to swing for lethal before turn 3, and standard Ichorid variants can already accomplish this feat (assuming they go all in from the start) with a more robust control suite than this deck mounts.

Let me use Menendian's Meandeck Ichorid list for this, because I'd like to talk about the advantages of said list and the flexibility that it brings to the table:
Meandeck Ichorid

4 Gemstone
4 CoB
1 Underground Sea
5 Artifact mana - Sapphire, Jet, Petal, Lotus, Chrome

4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Troll
1 Darkblast
1 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul

4 Putrid Imp
4 Bazaar
4 Brainstorm
1 Careful Study

Ancestral
Vamp
ISeal
Balance
Crop Rotation

4 CotV
4 Therapy
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Strip Mine

SB:
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Null Rod
4 Pithing Needle
4 Root Maze

First, let us look at the cards you have in common:

I'm going to skip Ichorid, Bazaar, Golgari-Grave Troll, and Stinkweed Imp because we all know why they're there and why the deck can't function without them.

Cabal Therapy - The best control card that Ichorid mounts. Any list that does not include it would be foolish. Cabal Therapy IS almost everything that you want it to be.

Chalice of the Void - Another very strong card. It serves as mana denial or can serve a backup purpose as a broad spell counter. I, personally, really like to set Chalice at 1 if I get the mana to do so, as it shuts off so much of Vintage's best utility spells. Ancestral, Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, the lesser artifact manas, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, Swords to Plowshares, Chain of Vapor, need I continue? The double-edged sword here is that all, or almost all, of Ichorid's spells are CC 1, which shuts off your spells as well. This seems to be a lot worse for you, since you really like your draw spells, than for Steve's list or my list, which can easily move in for the kill with a Chalice at 1 on the table.

Brainstorm - It's obviously a strong card drawer, and also Steve's baby. You mentioned doubts about it, and I tend to agree. Putting the cards back on top of your library is not really where you want them to be, but being able to filter your cards is good in a list with a good amount of chaff to sort through. Also being able to do a triple dredge is pretty good if you need it to do that.

Ancestral Recall - There's rarely a time when drawing another three cards is a bad thing, and in this case it's even moreso because being able to drop dredgers first turn and then Ancestral off a Mox is just about the only possible way to set up a turn 2 kill using Ichorid.

And now we get into the differences...

Careful Study - Steve likes this card, and I liked it, too. It's quite strong in the deck. You running four of them seems more in line with your plan, but Steve only found room for 1 in his final build. I tend to agree with him that less is better, but hey, I'm currently running Ichorid with 0 draw spells, so I'm biased.

Artifact Mana - Meandeck Ichorid uses Ashen Ghoul, and as a result anything that can accelerate black mana is in there. He's a key part of the clock. Mono-blue only needs Sapphire if all the spells are merely U.

And the serious differences:

Tutors - By this I mean Imperial Seal, Vampiric Tutor, and to a lesser extent Crop Rotation. These are cards that can really fix a hand that's subpar, and as a result can really smooth out early game. They also can pick out answers in early game, when you still have cards in hand, to deal with immediate threats. It's the toolbox, even if it's a bit slow, and it can answer the threats. By contract, the mono-blue Ichorid has no answers to fetch, even Chain of Vapor (which I would strongly encourage if you keep with this idea)

Strip Mine - Meh. Steve swears by it, and I can see where it would be useful. Nevertheless, it can answer land threats like Forbidden Orchard or serve to set the opponent back a land drop in a pseudo-Time Walk.

Chain of Vapor - Bounce answers permanents. Bounce neuters dragon, recycles Darksteel Colossus, and can at least delay a whole host of other threats that Ichorid meets up with. I can't see fielding blue without at least one, probably more if tutors aren't present. I personally consider Chain of Vapor to be a huge boon, and I would drop blue entirely if I felt that I could get along without Chain.

Darkblast - I don't want to get into a list of all the things that Darkblast kills, because the list for Vintage is huge. Add onto that the fact that Darkblast actually assists the deck in functioning through Dredge, even though it's a small one, and it's quite a house. That fact also means that one can be enough, since it can come around any time it's in the graveyard for good times.

Balance - No doubt it's powerful. Proponents of Balance say that it ends the game in their favor, and I have no doubt they're right. It's an added bonus of a five color manabase, and a quite powerful one at that.

Dread Returns Combo - I'd be interested to hear Steve's opinion on idea of comboing out with Ichorid. It takes up an enormous amount of space in a deck that already is short in that regard, and that's why I personally don't maindeck it. It takes the space of a lot of other things that could help the Ichorid player all along rather than end it sooner (by which time if one has lost the combo is too late, of course.)

And there are other cards that are run in neither but are still worth talking about, because, simply put, you can't run them in mono-blue.

Ancient Grudge - It doesn't solve Tormod's Crypt without Root Maze, but it can break Eon Hub, Smokestack, Juggernaut, Sundering Titan, O-Naginata and basically a whole lot of other stuff in this sometimes very brown format.

Ray of Revelation - Sometimes those Enchantments need killing, too, even though I think there's less need of that... especially for something we talk about flashing back and for that it needs to be in the graveyard first, which Planar Void and Leyline try to prevent.

Root Maze - Combo doesn't like it at all. Darksteel Colossus comes into play tapped. Dragon combo simply doesn't combo without answering it. Root Maze slows down every deck in the format while it's on the board, and forcing your opponent to slow down is giving Ichorid the time it needs to swing for win.

Unmask - A powerful discard effect that is cast mana-free. It becomes even more powerful when combined with Cabal Therapies. Your mono-blue variant could run it, but you'd be hard pressed to remove a black card without hampering your main swing base.

There are others, but used much less often and therefore I won't go into them.


There are a lot of strong cards there that all serve to prolong the Ichorid player's life to give him time to win. Ichorid CANNOT race combo to the punch in a match by pretending it's a goldfish. Your mono-blue build just loses too much to give it the survival power to keep in the game. The plethora of draw spells do not make up for that lack, and blue as a color doesn't bring all of what Ichorid needs to the table.

EDIT: Do note that I simply used Menedian's list as an example, since most people will agree that it's pretty good. I don't personally run it, and my optional slots are entirely different from his now, but I believe it is a good guide to base criticism off.

[Blauw]

I adjusted the deck and now the decklist is:

2x island
3x polluted delta
4x bazaar of baghdad
4x cephalid coliseum
4x ichorid
4x stinkweed imp
4x golgari thug
4x golgari grave-troll
4x nether shadow
2x laquatus champion
2x dread return
1x ancestral recall
1x chrome mox
3x brainstorm
3x breakthrough
4x careful study
4x chalice of the void
4x cabal therapy
1x lotus petal
1x mox sap
1x black lotus

I did a lot of goldfishing and I made notes of 3 random games:

------
1st turn:
hand: bazaar, lotus, careful, breakthrough, island, nether shadow, cabal therapy
lotus -> sac 3 blue
bazaar -> draws stinkweed + thug & dump stinkweed + thug + therapy
careful study -> dredge stinkweed and thug (no new dredge cards in GY) -> dump them both again.
breakthrough for x=1 -> dredge stinkweed (2x troll in GY), dredge 2x troll (1x troll in GY), dredge troll, dump everything and keep island
GY now contains 38 cards (3 nether shadow, 4 ichorid, 2 champion, 2x dread return)

2nd turn:
get back undead and swing for 15. Dredge some more.
Sac 3 ichorids for 3 cabal therapies. Clear the way for the dread return of the champion and
hit for 6. Total life loss 21.

------
1st hand: lotus, delta, coliseum, 2x ichorid, grave troll, thug
muligan -> 2nd hand: troll, cabal, chalice, careful, bazaar, recall

1st turn:
chalice -> x=0
bazaar -> draws imp and delta & discard trol, imp , therapy
2nd turn:
upkeep -> use bazaar: dredge troll & imp and discard troll, imp and study
drawstep -> dredge troll
main step -> delta for island. play recal. Dredge 3 times (troll, imp, thug)
GY now contains 32 cards (4x ichorid, 2x shadow)

3th turn:
get back undead and swing for 14. Dredge some more.
Sac 3 ichorids for 3 cabal therapies. Clearing the way for the dread return of the champion and
hit for 6. Total life loss 20.

-----
1st hand: 2x thug, 2x bazaar, chalice, ichorid, mox sap.
1st turn
chalice- > x=0
use bazaar: draws breakthrough + coliseum and discards: ichorid + 2x thug
mox s -> mana and playing breakthrough. Dredge thug: troll in GY. Dredge troll: imp in gy.
dredge imp: troll in GY. Dredge troll. discard everything.
GY contains 27 cards (3x ichorid + nether shadow + champion + dread return)

that's 16 damage during second turn (or 10 damage + some therapies)
--------

From playtesting I can say that this deck will reliable kill on 3th turn, but it sometimes even can kill 2nd turn. I'm usually in the position to do 10+ damage during my 2nd turn + playing cabal therapies. This is one turn faster then the normal ichorid build (3th/4th turn).

You can almost always (90% of the time) play multiple cabal therapies during your 2nd turn. This disruption should be enough to control your victory. The only problem that I experience is that it is more difficult to find answers to sideboard hate (i cannot tutor for the cards).

I'll do some more testing and keep you informed!

[The Atog Lord]

Scroob, excellent analysis of various cards for Ichorid. I'll just toss in a nitpick about Ray. While Ray does not answer Leyline very well, it does answer Planar Void. You can allow Ray to hit the graveyard, stack Planar Void's triggered ability, and then flashback Ray.

So far, while I have not opted to play Ichorid myself in any events, I have played against it several times, including in its unveiling at Star City against Parrot. I've played against it a few times in tournaments thereafter, and have always beaten the deck, because of its vulnerability to graveyard hate. I find its ability to start off strong and dodge countermagic impressive. However, while a recurring Tormod's Crypt can beat it, a Leyline of the Void simply stops the deck from coming online. I've twice played against it in tournaments with Leyline in my board, and in both cases the Ichorid deck, following a Leyline, simply tosses out a couple hardcast creatures and hardcasts a few non-flashback-able Therapies. It basically functions like a draft deck at that point.

Ichorid, then, seems unable to at all function under Leyline, and even if it finds bounce, this usually gives the opponent a few free turns to establish himself; not what a fast deck such as this wants to be doing. I say this not to belittle the deck, which I find entertaining. Rather, I wanted to bring up this issue which, if addressed, would result in the Ichorid deck in general being a much more viable metagame choice. I think that Time Spiral has brought several new tools for the deck, and am interested in seeing where its development goes.

[policehq]

Scroob, excellent analysis of various cards for Ichorid. I'll just toss in a nitpick about Ray. While Ray does not answer Leyline very well, it does answer Planar Void. You can allow Ray to hit the graveyard, stack Planar Void's triggered ability, and then flashback Ray.

So far, while I have not opted to play Ichorid myself in any events, I have played against it several times, including in its unveiling at Star City against Parrot. I've played against it a few times in tournaments thereafter, and have always beaten the deck, because of its vulnerability to graveyard hate. I find its ability to start off strong and dodge countermagic impressive. However, while a recurring Tormod's Crypt can beat it, a Leyline of the Void simply stops the deck from coming online. I've twice played against it in tournaments with Leyline in my board, and in both cases the Ichorid deck, following a Leyline, simply tosses out a couple hardcast creatures and hardcasts a few non-flashback-able Therapies. It basically functions like a draft deck at that point.

Ichorid, then, seems unable to at all function under Leyline, and even if it finds bounce, this usually gives the opponent a few free turns to establish himself; not what a fast deck such as this wants to be doing. I say this not to belittle the deck, which I find entertaining. Rather, I wanted to bring up this issue which, if addressed, would result in the Ichorid deck in general being a much more viable metagame choice. I think that Time Spiral has brought several new tools for the deck, and am interested in seeing where its development goes.

You mention that pre-Time Spiral decks already have a weakness to Leyline of the Void, yet you believe that Time Spiral added cards for the deck's benefit.

If you are referring to Dread Return, it would seem you are promoting a change in the decklist that is around 6 cards: Dread Return, its combo creature, and answers to its current weakness.

If you are not referring to what has already been mentioned, I would be interested to know, especially in reference to Leyline of the Void.

-hq

[President Skroob]

I was going to include a quote of the above 2 posts, but I've already added a lot of vertical length to this thread, and I'll avoid adding unnecessary extra.

I believe Atog Lord was referring to Dread Returns and Ancient Grudge. I've got to say that I really like Ancient Grudge. The card has made me consider revamping my current build and moving from UB to BG. The only blue I'm still running is Chain of Vapor and Ancestral Recall, whereas green brings in Root Maze (which I'm hot for) and also Ancient Grudge, which I am also interested in trying. Seperately, they're pretty good, and combined they're even better.

Losing Chain of Vapor means losing my only defense to Leyline of the Void, however, which I am very sad to do. Leyline is a beast I'd rather keep on my side of the board. When it's on the other side, it's a rough one to tame. I'm currently speculating sideboarding Emerald Charms to solve Leylines. It's an easy casting cost to field and it also can untap a permanent (I'd say most likely Bazaar) in a pinch for extra speed, thus not rendering it completely useless if Leyline does not come down. I don't really like the solution, but I similarly really don't like folding like a house of cards to a Leyline of the Void. The other option is just to hope, especially since I have never come up against it in a match before, but I don't like to get along on lucky matchings.

And coming around to where I began, I believe the other card Atog was referring to is Dread Return. I was skeptical about Dread Return at first, as I looked at it as a "win more" card. However, after further consideration, I believe that Dread Return is the answer that I was hoping for for the aggro matchup. In my last tourney, I got my face beaten off twice by Goblins (one with counters, who would have thought?!) I wouldn't maindeck Dread Return, but I most certainly will sideboard it along with Nether Shadows for the aggro matchup. I do not believe that Sutured Ghoul is necessary for that use, as you don't have to win that turn in an aggro matchup. In a combo matchup, I can see the necessity of winning instantly with Dread Return because they can just combo out over something slower, but I use other means to keep combo from going off in my face. This is why I feel secure bringing back the Golgari-Grave Troll. He's slower, certainly, but he can get the job done, and the best part is he's already a part of the build. Conscripting him into double duty is just extra candy.

As for a Leyline answer from Time Spiral, I don't believe I've seen it, assuming one exists. Leyline is, without a doubt, the biggest threat to any Ichorid build in the format right now. Ichorid cannot use its favorite resource, the graveyard, in any way to circumvent it, and that means that nothing that has true synergy with the deck can really function as Leyline removal. It has to be something that functions but still is cumbersome, such as Emerald Charm.

[meadbert]

In your three examples you started with a total of 4 Bazaars in your oppening hands.  I realized you mulliganed once but that is still pretty good luck.  It means you drew 4 Bazaars in 27 cards rather than 4 in 60 as would be expected.

Being able to win on turn 2 is really great.  The problem is when you do not start with Bazaar a well timed counter can totally wreck your plans.

Mono Blue actually has some solutions for common hate.  Annul and Stifle are options for Tormod's Crypt and Chain of Vapor is good for Leyline of the Void and Darksteel Colossus.

Stifle also protects against Wasteland.  Here is where Brainstorm can outshine Careful Study.  You can open up with Bazaar and petal and leave the petal untapped.  Then you can Stifle a Wasteland or Annul a Crypt/Planar Void if your opponent tries to play one.  If he does not then use the petal to Brainstorm EOT and dredge a ton.

This deck can be powerful but I found myself mulliganing down to unplayable hands of 3 or 4 too often.  I also had trouble when my only discard outlet was Careful Study and it was countered.  Also Breakthrough is randomly amazing but it is sort of crummy without tons of moxes.  I wonder if more moxes would be better.  An off color mox allows breakthrough for 1.  You can keep breakthrough #2 or Brainstorm and then do some massive dredgeing on turn 2.  It is risky to Breakthrough your entire hand into the yard.  If your one land was Colliseum you actually have a good chance of top decking either a blue source or a draw spell so it more workable.  Still, the biggest problem I had was with a token counterspell just tearing me up by shutting me off from my only discard.

Also you have not addressed Combo.  Your combo defense is basically either Racing it or Chalice.  Winning turn 2-4 is a bit slower than most combo and Chalice is annoying but most games you won't start with it.

Could Force of Will be put in the board?  It helps versus combo and helps protect from hate.  Also since you are almost always drawing at least twice on your oppening turn you have a good chance to Brainstorm or Bazaar into it.

[The Atog Lord]

The cards to which I was referring were Dread and Grudge. While I am not certain that a Dread based build is optimal, it does give the deck a potentially powerful new approach to explore. This does not solve the matter of graveyard hate, but does allow the deck to combo faster than it otherwise would. Comboing quickly is vital to the deck working properly, as it is pretty much a beatdown deck by how it is constructed. As with many similar decks from years past, the control package is not enough to lock someone down for the long game; it is, however, often enough to slow someone down for a few turns, during which the deck's monsters can end the game.

Grudge allows the deck to use the additional mana denial element of artifact removal. It is something which I would certainly be testing if I planned to take this deck to a tournament. Finally, Nether Traitor is on the cusp of playability, but may not quite be as strong as he needs to be.

As for Leyline. It is a card not worth worrying about in the first game -- this means both that you needn't design your maindeck to handle it, and also that your sideboard ought to have clever solutions to it. A transformational sideboard seems difficult, as removing all of the dredge pieces would be rather difficult. Oath of Druids is a combo that usually fits well into a mana-light deck, but there are more creatures in the deck than could be removed. I would probably fall over laughing if a Leylined Ichorid player resolved Gorilla Titan, but sadly I don't see that happening. Perhaps there is a very clever transformation plan, but the best I can think of is adding creatures and becoming Suicide Black.

That leaves us with the matter of removing Leyline, and white blue and green all have one-mana answers. I'll point out that boarding in a set of these spells is less harmful to this deck's plan than most. Oftentimes, boarding in answers to cards of which the opponent has only four may result in cards languishing in your hand while you lose to other threats. However, this deck accels as flying through its cards. So, even if that Erase is just sitting in your hand and there is no Leyline for it to remove, it can likely be discarded to Bazaar or returned with Brainstorm anyways.

[policehq]

Dread Return does not necessitate basing an Ichorid deck around it. I'm now playing with 1 Dread Return and 1 Laquatus's Champion, in addition to 4 Golgari Grave-Troll, so it only takes two slots.

I prefer running U/B, but Ancient Grudge is really stellar post-board against a lot of match-ups. Orb of Dreams, Eon Hub, Tormod's Crypt (prior to when they want to activate it), and Ensnaring Bridge are trouble. I personally hate running Gemstone Mines, and I'm testing Gemstone Caverns and maindeck Riftstone Portals, but I really don't know if there is a land that can replace Mine optimally.

2 Chain of Vapor seems to be optimal maindeck right now because Control Slaver, Bomberman, and random Trinket Mage decks run Tormod's Crypt, and there are enough decks that run Darksteel Colossus and maindeck Leyline of the Void where I don't want any first-game auto-losses. Chain can answer Tormod's Crypt if the latter is played before your Chalice of the Void.

-hq

[nataz]

I just wanted to add a few comments. First off, for dread returns, I think the two creatures you should be looking at are sundering titan and laq champion. Akroma's best quality is the haste, which does you no good if you bring her back after you attack. You don't want to bring her back early because then you lose 9 power to 6 power. While its true her abilities may help to balance that out (say to trample though fish, or fly over some kind of aggro-deck) overall I feel like there are stronger options.

Laq is nice because it actually adds to the dmg done in any given turn. Sutured can do that also, but not with out attacking. Sutured is also a 3 card combo, taking up considerably more space.

Sundering titan is nice because its solid disruption. Throw in a cabal therp and you can hit multiple lands twice, possibly denying your opponent a chance to get back into the game. Considering we already run chalice, and some versions run strip mine, titan can be critical in hitting those extra duals lands and keeping Gifts off tinker + TW mana. 


Personally, I'm not running either at the moment, but I did spend a lot of time testing versions with both cards.

I also wanted to reinforce that grudge is really good. Grudge plus rootmaze may just be greedy, but grudge alone is an excellent card in the MD or the SB. Between grudge and ray of revelation ichorid has handy tools to beat both enchantments and artifacts. Quite nice actually.

Finally, for anyone who is still testing a MD based version, I've been thinking more about the mana base. How good really is the 4 rainbowland + Saph, Jet, Lotus, Petal, and chrome? I've recently fallen back to cutting both the non-reusable sources (lotus and petal), as well as dropping chrome for 3 straight underground seas.

My mana base is currently 3 sea, 8 rainbow land, and just the saph and jet for acceleration. I currently run no 2 cc spells (balance was cut for this config), instead running 3 careful study, 3 chain of vapor, and for off color just 1 crop. Rainbow lands are kept for SB options.

The downside is that I lose the first turn bazaar + something (tutor, study, imp, whatever), but the upside has been a much higher freq of ashen returns. It does slow you down initially, but over the course of the game I feel like I was actually doing more dmg faster by making the ghouls more reliable. And, since careful study is in the deck, I'm much less reliant of getting a first turn bazaar into play. Study, while not drawing three like brainstorm, does discard back into the gy therefore not necessitating having a p-imp on the board. It also acts as bazaars 5-7 vs something like fish or stax.

[policehq]

RE: Artifact accel

I'm running Jet, Lotus Petal, and Chrome Mox, and cut Sapphire and Black Lotus. It has the same effect (if not better than) for the Ashen Ghouls, and I completely agree that a consistent turn 4 win with better cards is better than a consistent goldfish win on turn 3 (which I surmise you were saying marginally with your comments about recurring Ashen Ghouls).

If I could consistently get four dredge cards into my graveyard by turns 2-3, I would certainly run Breakthrough, but Careful Study is significantly better, and I'm almost considering playing 4 of them automatically instead of 4 Brainstorm and using Brainstorm for the "whatever's left" slots.

My current list (which changes about twice a day):
4 bazaar
4 city
4 gemstone mine
3 underground sea
1 mox jet
1 chrome mox
1 lotus petal

4 putrid imp
4 ichorid
4 ashen ghoul

4 golgari grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp

4 cabal therapy
4 chalice of the void
2 chain of vapor

1 ancestral recall
1 crop rotation
1 vampiric tutor

1 laquatus's champion
2 dread return

4 brainstorm
2 careful study

SB:
2 ancient grudge
3 riftstone portal
3 ray of revelation, erase, wax/wane, emerald charm
3 pithing needle
4 root maze

-hq

[nataz]

When are you using riftstone portal, and what are you SB out for them? I'll admit it's nice to have your bazaar work overtime, but where do you find the space? In most cases, I'd rather just SB something else, or keep in what I already have.

[policehq]

Well game 2 is when the hate comes in against you as well as for them, so a game-plan of turn 1 Bazaar turn 2 dredge, Bazaar, Mine/City/Sea -> Brainstorm is significantly more risky. Thus generally I'm siding out Brainstorms for protection/anti-hate and with less need of Blue mana, Underground Sea goes also.

-hq

[cssamerican]

This is where I am at with Ichorid and I am fairly satisfied it.

        4 Bazaar of Baghdad
        4 City of Brass
        4 Gemstone Mine
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Sapphire

        4 Ashen Ghoul
        4 Ichorid
        4 Putrid Imp

        1 Darkblast
        4 Golgari Grave-Troll
        4 Stinkweed Imp

        4 Cabal Therapy
        4 Chalice of the Void
        4 Leyline of the Void
        4 Unmask

        1 Ancestral Recall
        4 Careful Study

        4 Serum Powder

Sideboard
SB:  4 Ancient Grudge
SB:  3 Pithing Needle
SB:  4 Emerald Charm/Ray of Revelation/Chain of Vapor (Heavy Leyline/Heavy Oath-Dragon/Random Meta)
SB:  4 Root Maze

I go back and forth on replacing Unmask with Brainstorm, and I am still not sure which one is right. Unmask buys you time and Brainstorm will increase your speed, so it is a tough call. For now I am going with the Unmask because it is easier to gauge the strength of my hand with them instead of Brainstorms. I was making some mistakes on mulligan decisions when I was playing with the Brainstorms because I am so used to playing with them in decks in which they can almost always fix your hand, which is not the case with this deck.

Serum Powder has been really good to me. This deck is very dependent on its opening grip, and this card ensures that you have good opening grips. I never thought I would have like this card until I tried it. And the only reason why I tried it was because I wasn't satisified with the one mana tutors in the deck.

The maindeck Darkblast could be a Dread Return, I am still not sold on which card should be in the main. I like the utility and Dredge ability of Darkblast, but at times a big Troll would have been better.

I have one question though for everyone else here. Why is everyone running so much mana?

[nataz]

I run 13 sources to consistantly cast chain/study and return ashen ghoul. 13 sources gets me a U/B mana source on the board fairly consistantly by turn 2. Since NE has a ton of random aggro-control decks at the moment, and bazaar isn't always the go-to plan, I want to have enough mana to actually play though my back up plan of careful study and or Imp even if I lose my bazaar.

G2 I often SB out a land or even two depending on what I'm up against.