[Results] Ottawa Vintage - Emerald - Oct. 21, 2006

[mgouthro]

Wizard's Tower Vintage Proxy for a Mox Emerald

1st: Unlimited Mox Emerald
2nd: Beta Sol Ring
3rd: 2 Packs Itl Legends
4th: 1 Pack Itl Legends

This time around, we partnered with the Quebec Vintage Championship series which attracted many players from Quebec. That meant the winner also received an invite to the 32 person Black Lotus Championship held in Quebec City. There was a big turnover from our last tournament with 15 different players showing up.

After 5 Rounds of Swiss, the final standings looked like:

1. Andrew, Tam
2. Bonneville, Martin
3. Swan, Kevin
4. Chabot-Laroche, Lany
5. Riverd, Ugo
6. Guerette, Simon
7. Gouthro, Mike
8. McRae, Simon
9. Leconte, Jean-Philippe
10. Beauchamp, Benoit
11. Patterson, Robbie
12. Whicher, Phil
13. Miller, Glenn
14. Russo, Rene
15. Wheatley, Barry
16. Smith, Ian
17. Krueger, Jeff
18. Beaton, Craig
19. Russo, Phil
20. Lanthier, Dan
21. Fischer, Justin
22. Davies, Avi
23. Bourque, Mattheiu
24. Bradford, Jon
25. Moir, Ben
26. Desroches, Joe
27. Lajeunesse, David

Top Eight:

Andrew, Tam vs McRae, Simon
Bonneville, Martin vs Gouthro, Mike
Swan, Kevin vs Guerette, Simon
Chabot-Laroche, Lany vs Riverd, Ugo

Top Four:

Tam, Andrew vs Riverd, Ugo
Swan, Kevin vs Gouthro, Mike

Finals:

As Ugo already was qualified for the CVQ Champs, Ugo and Kevin decided to split. Kevin took the Emerald & the invite, Ugo took cash and a beta Sol Ring.

Final standings in top eight for CVQ points:
1. Kevin Swan
2. Ugo Riverd
3. Tam Andrew
4. Mike Gouthro
5. Martin Bonneville
6. Lany Chabot-Laroche
7. Simon Guerette
8. Simon McRae


Decklists:

Kevin Swan, 1st/2nd Split
Bomberman

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Aether Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
2 Mana Leak
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Trinket Mage
3 Meddling Mage
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

Sideboard

3 Energy Flux
3 Mystic Remora
3 Stifle
1 Disenchant
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Pithing Needle
3 Swords to Plowshares

Ugo Rivard, 1st/2nd Split
"Suicide Workshop"

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Balance
1 Choke
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
2 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Dark Confidant
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
4 Juggernaut
1 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void

Sideboard:

1 In the Eye of Chaos
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Triskelion
3 Ray of Revelation
3 Tormod's Crypt

Tam Andrew, 3rd
Pitch Long

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rebuild
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Grim Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mind's Desire
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:

2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darksteel Colossus
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Duress
2 Darkblast
3 Stifle
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Massacre

Mike Gouthro, 4th
Bomberman

4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Trinket Mage
3 Meddling Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Mana Leak
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Aether Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Seal of Cleansing
4 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
4 Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

Sideboard:

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Serenity
2 Energy Flux
2 Kami of Ancient Law
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Pithing Needle

Martin Bonneville, 5th
Ichorid

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Brainstorm
2 Riftstone Portal
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp
1 Crop Rotation
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Nether Spirit
3 Dread Return

Lany Chabot Laroche, 6th
Bomberman

4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Tundra
1 Disenchant
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Island
3 Meddling Mage
2 Mana Leak
3 Aether Spellbomb
1 Plains

Sideboard

2 Exalted Angel
2 Kami of Ancient Law
3 Abeyance
2 Phyrexian Furnace
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Mana Leak
2 Stifle

Simon Guerette, 7th
Control Slaver

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Duress
3 Night's Whisper
1 Wipe Away
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mindslaver
1 Sundering Titan
1 Time Walk
1 Platinum Angel
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Goblin Welder
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Snow Covered Island
1 Swamp
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:

3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Rack and Ruin
1 Duress
1 Triskelion
2 Darkblast
2 Abyss

Simon MacRae, 8th
Control Slaver

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Mana Leak
3 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Mindslaver
1 Wipe Away
1 Burning Wish
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt

Sideboard:

2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroclasm
2 Blood Moon
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Shattering Spree

Cheers!

[Phele]

Nice top 8. Its good to see that you canadians still love bomberman. I have a few questions on the deck lists:

- Everybody runs three Meddling Mages: I have always found Meddling pretty conditional. Great in Combo, Gifts, Slaver and Oath matchup, pretty bad in the Staxx and Fish matchup. Is this a sign for the meta where Stax and Fish are more less not around?

- Everybody runs none or just one solution for Null Rod. Don't you fear the Rod at all. Same for Chalice. Even though you can remove Chalice with Sol Ring and EE i don't see it as the most comfortable solution. Single Disenchants or Seal of Cleansings seem a bit random too with no tutor to find them at all.

- Same for the single Strip Mine. Even though it has a powerful effect, it seems to me that it is just random in this deck. Especially because many lists run the Mine but no Pithing Needle. What can a Mine do what the tutorable Needle can't do better (Library, Bazaar). Ok its uncounterable but I would play Tolarian Academy for extra brokeness over it all day long especially cause you add an answer for the remaing Strip Mine goal you can't target with Needle (Academy itself). For the rest, Needle seems to be just so much more versatile.

- Why don't use Cunning Wish: In testing I had quite a few situations where I was happy to end the game directly with Brain Freeze. For the rest Wish has the advantage of never being dead and nevertheless not hindering the sideboard too much. The only mandatory things to add are Brain Freeze, Misdirection and Fact or Fiction. The rest (Swords, Disenchant, Orims Chant is already run by all the lists). It's so versatile. I run two of them and would never go back.

- What about adding Mana Crypt: I know that Bomberman often goes the control route, but still - for example with two trinkets - ends the game quicker than crypt kills you. And Mana Crypt adds even more brokenes. First turn Thirsts or Trinkets can be pretty powerful and even the rest of the deck (Salvagers, Mana Leak, all the artefacts, Salvager activation can benefit from it).

- Arent there any better tools against Fish in the sideboard than just Swords? What about Old Man of the Sea, Seasinger, Threads of Disloyality, extra Explosives?

- In which matchup do you add Mystic Remora? It seems to me that I prefer to get Mana Drain online as quick as possible than paying for the Remora.

Anyway, thx for presenting these interesting top 8 lists and continue with your great work on Bomberman!

PS Congratulations to Ugo Rivard for building a deck perfectly prepared in a field full of Bomberman and Slaver. There are so many tools both decks have a hard time dealing with ((Choke, In the Eye, Confidants, Mox Monkeys, Blasts, Chalice ...) Must be a nightmare to play against this with one of the menitioned decks

[mgouthro]

Hey, I'll make a stab at answering some of your questions.

- Everybody runs three Meddling Mages: I have always found Meddling pretty conditional. Great in Combo, Gifts, Slaver and Oath matchup, pretty bad in the Staxx and Fish matchup. Is this a sign for the meta where Stax and Fish are more less not around?

Meddling Mage is somewhat conditional. At SCG Rochester, they were replaced by another Mana Leak, Pithing Needle, etc. You really need to know how to use the mage to it's best effect. That's obvious in some matchups, but maybe it's not that obvious in Stax or Fish. One copy still nullifies any threat that you feel it's difficult to deal with, which frees your other counters for other things. Against Stax, it's certainly not that great. Against Fish, I've always found it to be very useful. It reduces the number of threats I have to face while either beating down or finding the combo. It's usually a good ploy to either name one of their creature types, or their removal spells to protect my Salvager. Furthermore, the more blockers you have against SS, the better.

I'll see if I can dig up the represented archetypes, but Stax, Fish, & Goblins were present at this tournament.

- Everybody runs none or just one solution for Null Rod. Don't you fear the Rod at all. Same for Chalice. Even though you can remove Chalice with Sol Ring and EE i don't see it as the most comfortable solution. Single Disenchants or Seal of Cleansings seem a bit random too with no tutor to find them at all.

Chalice is not really a concern at all. It's very easy to remove via EE. There's seven sources of colourless in this deck - Sol Ring, Library of Alexandria, Strip Mine, Mana Drainx4. As for Null Rod, it's a bit more problematic, but it only impedes the combo win of the deck. At least 50% of the time, the win is achieved by beatdown. That's another reason why Meddling Mage is good in the main. It provides another locking mini-beater in addition to the ten counterspells.

- Same for the single Strip Mine. Even though it has a powerful effect, it seems to me that it is just random in this deck. Especially because many lists run the Mine but no Pithing Needle. What can a Mine do what the tutorable Needle can't do better (Library, Bazaar). Ok its uncounterable but I would play Tolarian Academy for extra brokeness over it all day long especially cause you add an answer for the remaing Strip Mine goal you can't target with Needle (Academy itself). For the rest, Needle seems to be just so much more versatile.

It's hard to explain just how good that random Strip Mine can be. It has taken out a Workshop, Tolarian and Library. Those were all very important and led to the win in those games. However, it can also take out an important source of coloured mana of the opponent. Sometimes that swings the balance of the game. Reducing the mana that your opponent has available is important. Sure, a Pithing Needle shuts off the draw ability of the Library, but not the ability to add colourless mana. That random resource denial ability of the Strip Mine is what makes it superior to the Pithing Needle in my opinion. I'll grant you that it doesn't change every game, but the games it does change usually tilt in my favour after stripping a land. Plus, it also gives another colourless mana source for Engineered Explosives.

- Why don't use Cunning Wish: In testing I had quite a few situations where I was happy to end the game directly with Brain Freeze. For the rest Wish has the advantage of never being dead and nevertheless not hindering the sideboard too much. The only mandatory things to add are Brain Freeze, Misdirection and Fact or Fiction. The rest (Swords, Disenchant, Orims Chant is already run by all the lists). It's so versatile. I run two of them and would never go back.

Actually, Cunning Wish is pretty good. I considered running it at this event, but didn't have the time to test it out enough. I don't know that I'd run two copies, but I might run one in the future just to have the Brainfreeze option available. The only issue I have with it is the three mana. At least half the games I play don't involve me having tons of mana available when the game ends. Do you run a similar manabase?

- What about adding Mana Crypt: I know that Bomberman often goes the control route, but still - for example with two trinkets - ends the game quicker than crypt kills you. And Mana Crypt adds even more brokenes. First turn Thirsts or Trinkets can be pretty powerful and even the rest of the deck (Salvagers, Mana Leak, all the artefacts, Salvager activation can benefit from it).

I can't say that I'd ever run Mana Crypt. Numerous games I've played come down to a fairly low life total and that would tilt the balance against me. In fact, there was one game in this event where I was Tendriled down to one (thanks to some countering of copies) and my opponent ended up at 35. I ended up winning that game (game 3) still at one life because my opponent emptied his hand and proceeded to draw nothing but land. This deck can already have problems with Null Rod and it plays the control role quite often. That means often going ten turns or longer. I don't think it's a good idea to add the crypt. However, feel free to test it out and let me know!

- Arent there any better tools against Fish in the sideboard than just Swords? What about Old Man of the Sea, Seasinger, Threads of Disloyality, extra Explosives?

Extra explosives is always a good plan. However, Swords can be good against other decks too. I imagine that you'd keep at least one copy in your side to wish for in the case of DSC, Akroma, etc. Thus far, I haven't had to face a lot of Fish decks at any one tournament. The ones I have, I've generally won through counters, Meddling Mage, Spellbombs and beatdown. I've had Old Man and Seasinger in my board at different times, but generally haven't found the need to side them in.

- In which matchup do you add Mystic Remora? It seems to me that I prefer to get Mana Drain online as quick as possible than paying for the Remora.

The Mystic Remora was a piece of fun tech to bring against the combo matchup. We brought that to SCG Boston. It actually is quite interesting. Often, a single Mana Drain just isn't enough against a combo matchup. Furthermore, it's not online on your first turn very often. In one of the combo matches I've played against, I had it on turn one and it lasted through turn 6 at least. Meanwhile, the combo player is trying to decide whether to push through it or wait. Every turn you get against combo increases the chance of finding answers to when they try to go off. Alternatively, they also can give you the answers when they are trying to go through it. It's interesting to say the least. It's also an option to play versus any deck that doesn't play creatures - Gifts, Oath, etc. I don't know that it's a great card to play, just one that was unexpected.

PS Congratulations to Ugo Rivard for building a deck perfectly prepared in a field full of Bomberman and Slaver. There are so many tools both decks have a hard time dealing with ((Choke, In the Eye, Confidants, Mox Monkeys, Blasts, Chalice ...) Must be a nightmare to play against this with one of the menitioned decks

It would have been tough to say the least. That's why the Serenity in my board was there. Global wipeouts are good at times!

Cheers!

[Phele]

First of all: Thanks a lot for all the  information. Some notes on them:

Hey, I'll make a stab at answering some of your questions.

Meddling Mage is somewhat conditional. At SCG Rochester, they were replaced by another Mana Leak, Pithing Needle, etc. You really need to know how to use the mage to it's best effect. That's obvious in some matchups, but maybe it's not that obvious in Stax or Fish. One copy still nullifies any threat that you feel it's difficult to deal with, which frees your other counters for other things. Against Stax, it's certainly not that great. Against Fish, I've always found it to be very useful. It reduces the number of threats I have to face while either beating down or finding the combo. It's usually a good ploy to either name one of their creature types, or their removal spells to protect my Salvager. Furthermore, the more blockers you have against SS, the better.

Meddling Mage is an in and out in my list as well. Sometimes he is very usefull, sometimes I really hate it to tap out so much colored mana. It's true that it is nice to have another beater and that naming Swords against fish can come in quite handy (especially cause I just run one as a wish target). But I'm not totally solved with Pikula. More testing in tournament play will show, but I do agree that he is a great option for the deck, especially in a known meta.

It's hard to explain just how good that random Strip Mine can be. It has taken out a Workshop, Tolarian and Library. Those were all very important and led to the win in those games. However, it can also take out an important source of coloured mana of the opponent. Sometimes that swings the balance of the game. Reducing the mana that your opponent has available is important. Sure, a Pithing Needle shuts off the draw ability of the Library, but not the ability to add colourless mana. That random resource denial ability of the Strip Mine is what makes it superior to the Pithing Needle in my opinion. I'll grant you that it doesn't change every game, but the games it does change usually tilt in my favour after stripping a land. Plus, it also gives another colourless mana source for Engineered Explosives.

As I do agree, that Mine can come in really handy as an element of resource denial - which is nevertheless questionable with almost no other element of mana denial at all - I mainly question the randomness of this inclusion. Some games you see the Mine, some not and you almost no way to influence that other than drawing many cards. And I still think that the tutorable Needle, even though it is difficult to compare both cards, is the much more flexible choice.

Actually, Cunning Wish is pretty good. I considered running it at this event, but didn't have the time to test it out enough. I don't know that I'd run two copies, but I might run one in the future just to have the Brainfreeze option available. The only issue I have with it is the three mana. At least half the games I play don't involve me having tons of mana available when the game ends. Do you run a similar manabase?

I play a slightly different mana base with just three Tundra (without Meddling Mages definately the way to go), five fetch lands, Academy instead of Strip Mine and Mana Crypt. I don't see many reasons not to run academy. In previous threads I often read that the deck doesn't run enought artifacts to give the Academy a good use, but don't you even run more cheap artifacts than Gifts and CS? Even though not perfectly comparable none of these decks would ever think about cutting Academy. Maybe you don't have the same big mana sinks these decks can provide, but I still think that Bomberman benefits from the extra mana.

The last list I played in a tournament can be found here:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=30731.0

But meanwhile I cut the three Meddling Mages for the fourth Salvagers, the fourth Thirst and for Mana Crypt. Together with the two Cunning Wishes for me it was the obvious choice to add Mana Crypt with so many great targets for the extra mana (4 Salvagers, 4 Thirst, 4 Trinket, 2 Cunning Wish without naming all the artifacts and Mana Leaks). Together with Academy it gives the deck some extra explosiveness that I really like. To me the life loss by Mana Crypt hasn't been an issue so far as the Crypt on the other side helped me to go in the combo mode quicker against aggro (first turn Trinket, second turn Salvagers do happen freuquently) or to shut down combos gameplan quicker by getting Tormods Crypt quicker or by generating Thirsts card advantage quicker as well. So far in around 100 testing games it helped the deck much more out than hindering it.

What I really reccomend is the addition of two Cunning Wishes: They are so great. Countless times a Wish for Fact ended the game for me as did a Wish for some solution as did a Wish for Misdirection to win a counter war. I even caught Ancestrals with them. The Wishes also give you the option to go down with the Aether Spellbomb count to two, as the third bomb to me often seemed to be a bit too much as I can tutor for it and Cunning Wish gives you almost the same possibilities with adding extra options. With wish you can also avoid running any Disenchant/Seal main at all.

That's why the Serenity in my board was there. Global wipeouts are good at times!

So true, in the right meta Serenity can be the perfect choice.

Finally I would like to underline that I know that you guys probably have much more experience with the deck and I just wanted to talk about points coming to my mind while playing the deck. Maybe I'm on the wrong route, but what I do know is that I really like the deck. Thanks for the help!

[Methuselahn]

Hey, I'll make a stab at answering some of your questions.

Meddling Mage is somewhat conditional. At SCG Rochester, they were replaced by another Mana Leak, Pithing Needle, etc. You really need to know how to use the mage to it's best effect. That's obvious in some matchups, but maybe it's not that obvious in Stax or Fish. One copy still nullifies any threat that you feel it's difficult to deal with, which frees your other counters for other things. Against Stax, it's certainly not that great. Against Fish, I've always found it to be very useful. It reduces the number of threats I have to face while either beating down or finding the combo. It's usually a good ploy to either name one of their creature types, or their removal spells to protect my Salvager. Furthermore, the more blockers you have against SS, the better.

Meddling Mage is an in and out in my list as well. Sometimes he is very usefull, sometimes I really hate it to tap out so much colored mana. It's true that it is nice to have another beater and that naming Swords against fish can come in quite handy (especially cause I just run one as a wish target). But I'm not totally solved with Pikula. More testing in tournament play will show, but I do agree that he is a great option for the deck, especially in a known meta.

Meddling Mage is always debatable in Bomberman.

First, I have to question any argument for Meddling Mage to fight fish.  Bomberman should be cleaning up vs fish and SS.  Especially if it runs EE.  Also, I think the decision to run Mage really depends on whether there is Long present.  If there is, then Mage is a bad call.  Mage needs additional turn 1 disruption if it wants to be an effective turn 2 piece of additional pressure.  Considering that the decks here are relegated to running the following with mage for turn 1 disruption,  Mage turns out to be bad in Bomberman;
4 Force of Will
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Mana Leak

This is just not enough pressure vs Long.  Esp.  Pitch Long.  According to my testing and tournament experience anyway.

Notice the CS list that lost to PL in the Top8.  The CS list was running the following Turn 1 disruption;
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak

Maybe it's a good thing that Long isn't/wasn't a huge presence this time around.

This Bomberman list is a fine example that HAS been tweaked to fight Long, one of it's problematic matchups.

JR's list in the link runs things like Merchant Scroll and fast 1cc tech in the side. 

[sa17dk]

Excuse me for being retarded, but exactly how does Bomberman work? I understand the synergy between Salvagers + Lotus for infinite mana, but is the kill condition just beats?

[wethepeople]

Excuse me for being stupid, but exactly how does Bomberman work? I understand the synergy between Salvagers + Lotus for infinite mana, but is the kill condition just beats?

No, but that is always an additional win that does in fact come along fairly often. There are all different things that the deck can do after it achieves infinite mana, some builds draw out their entire deck by recurring Aether Spellbomb until they find the kill. Others simply recur Pyrite Spellbomb as many times necessary to simply kill the opponent. The deck itself is very versatile, so I understand why it has done so well. It is able to obtain Pithing Needle, Crypt, Spellbomb, and so forth and recur them as many times needed using Salvagers. I have had much trouble trying to find an answer to the deck so far. I have been testing Brain Freeze for when they decide to go off, but I believe for that to give me an instant win they must Draw a card first. Then again, in many recent builds they draw through their library before going off, so Freeze would most likely work.

Meddling Mage really depends on the meta, as stated below, its not that great with a lot of Fish/Stax, and best with Gifts, Combo, etc. It cant be bad even against Fish because it shuts off atleast one of their cards, often times something like Swords to Plowshares to garuntee your Salvagers is safe, or at very least it can be used as a 2/2 attack/blocker.

[Methuselahn]

Also you can recur AEther Spellbomb to combo out.

Sort of what wethepeople is getting at: You draw most of your deck, cast all the guys in your hand, cast Time Walk.  All while holding a hand full of counters.

[Phele]

Also, I think the decision to run Mage really depends on whether there is Long present.  If there is, then Mage is a bad call.  Mage needs additional turn 1 disruption if it wants to be an effective turn 2 piece of additional pressure.  Considering that the decks here are relegated to running the following with mage for turn 1 disruption,  Mage turns out to be bad in Bomberman

This  Bomberman list is a fine example that HAS been tweaked to fight Long, one of it's problematic matchups.

1.   JR Goldman

4 Trinket Mage
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Thirst For Knowledge
3 Brainstorm
1 TIme Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Black Lotus
3 Aether Spellbomb
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Engineered Explosives

SB:

4 Disrupt
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Energy Flux
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
3 Threads  of Disloyalty
1 Disenchant
1 SEal of Cleansing

JR's list runs things like Merchant Scroll and fast 1cc tech in the side. 

I wouldn't call Meddling Mage a bad call when combo is around but it's true that you need additional quick disruption to work with Mage together to fight Long the best. For that things can come out of board while hoping your best in the first game and there is a chance to get through the first turn with the presented configurations. I actually don't see JRs build so much better prepared to fight long in the maindeck. He runs (two more) Merchant Scrolls instead of Mana Leaks which should be both a same threat against Long in the first turn. Also he is missing the fourth Brainstorm for that configuration which can be a kind of a first turn threat too. But his sideboard is a little bit better prepared against Long with the 4 Disrupts, where others run Abeyance, Stifle and Chalice. While Disrupt is a nice little card, it's also somewhat questionable compared to other solutions. Namely Orim's Chant is in my eyes the much better tool against long but might be less effective against Combo-Contorl like Gifts. (so the in Ottawa used Abeyance could be the better call).

What I don't like about JRs configuratin to fight long as well is, that any permanent solutions are totally missing. He's just relying on Counters which might be a tough call against some combinations of Duress and Xantid Swarm. I prefer to fight Long with a combination of permanents and counter-like spells which can be Meddling Mage and Orims Chant. Other people (like one in the Ottawa tournament) run Chalice in the board which can be quite good against Long as against Gifts and CS as well. But what I really hate about Chalice is how hindering it can be to your own combo as well. Some might say that you instead can rely on your beats but nevertheless I think the card ist antisynergistic so a more streamlined solution would be nice. Maybe Children of Korlis could be an option but this would just help out a bit in the Long matchup. Any other ideas?

Another step could be the mentioned added speed to the deck. IMO the better the chance to play first turn Thirsts or Trinket the better you are prepared to fight Long, while other say that a firts turn Mana Crypt makes it easier to combo you out with a little Tendrils.

[mgouthro]

First, I have to question any argument for Meddling Mage to fight fish.  Bomberman should be cleaning up vs fish and SS.  Especially if it runs EE.

Questions are always good. Have you tested the matchup? Played against it in any tournament? Bomberman IS a fish deck, same as SS is a fish deck. They just use different tools. When you face a fish deck that runs 4 Swords/Diabolic Edicts and 4 Stifles. It can be a bit dicey. Their threat density is higher. Without the mage, Bomberman would run 8 creatures.

Against Fish, I've had the Trinket Mage's ability get stifled often. I've also had problems protecting the Salvager. In one sequence of plays, I cast a salvager. My opponent responded with Swords on the Salvager, I protected it with a Mana Drain. He responded by swording it again. I had a brainstorm in hand, so I decided to crack a fetch and brainstorm for a FoW. My opponent stifled the fetch, leaving me with no mana for the brainstorm. Cost him 3 mana. My plays cost me 6 mana and a destroyed mana source. If I can land a permanent which can make up to 4 of a fish player's cards useless, why not do it?

I've landed Meddling Mage quite often over the past two years against Fish decks and for me, it's always been a great play. So I guess the best argument for me is that I've done it and it works great.

Also, I think the decision to run Mage really depends on whether there is Long present.  If there is, then Mage is a bad call.  Mage needs additional turn 1 disruption if it wants to be an effective turn 2 piece of additional pressure.  Considering that the decks here are relegated to running the following with mage for turn 1 disruption,  Mage turns out to be bad in Bomberman;
4 Force of Will
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Mana Leak

This is just not enough pressure vs Long.  Esp.  Pitch Long.  According to my testing and tournament experience anyway.

Well, I did go 4-0 at Gencon versus both Grim Long and Pitch Long. Granted, it wasn't against Tommy or Steve, but not all of them were slouches either. I won't discount playing against these decks if their pilot isn't one of the top five combo players in North America. After all, that's the usual tournament experience.

I guess I disagree with this assertion that the mage is terrible against combo. At the very least, it's a blue card on turn one to discard to FoW.

This Bomberman list is a fine example that HAS been tweaked to fight Long, one of it's problematic matchups.

JR's list in the link runs things like Merchant Scroll and fast 1cc tech in the side. 

Merchant Scroll is an interesting choice. As long as you have a mox, you can scroll up a FoW on your first turn. So really, the maindeck has two more possibilities for disruption. The only problem with the tutoring for the disruption is that it costs two mana. It basically relegates you to only doing FoW on your first turn whereas the versions in this thread could cast a Mana Leak and a FoW.

As for the sideboard, JR's list runs 4 Disrupt. Well, there was only a small amount of combo expected at this event, but there were a number of good options in the lists for sideboard disruption of combo.

- Chalice of the Void
- Stifle
- Abeyance

However, I will put it together to test against Long decks to see if it performs that much better. Thanks for the list.

[JR]

I think my list, especially post board, is much better against other drain decks, especially gifts ungiven because disrupt stunts early growth so bad. Long still isn't a great match up, but you can screw with their math a bit which helps. I went into this tournament expecting MDG, so that is why my list looks as such. I think Scroll is amazing, and lets you both get FoW almost always, and even allows for more aggresive play on your part (Mage for lotus, scroll, ancestral). I played at the RIW lotus tournament yesterday, finishing tenth due to a play mistake on my part, but noticed that at least two other people were running my list or variations on it. I know one person finished 9th with it.

Anyway, hope this clears some things up.

JR.

[Methuselahn]

First, I have to question any argument for Meddling Mage to fight fish.  Bomberman should be cleaning up vs fish and SS.  Especially if it runs EE.

Questions are always good. Have you tested the matchup? Played against it in any tournament? Bomberman IS a fish deck, same as SS is a fish deck. They just use different tools. When you face a fish deck that runs 4 Swords/Diabolic Edicts and 4 Stifles. It can be a bit dicey. Their threat density is higher. Without the mage, Bomberman would run 8 creatures.

Yea, I tested the SS heavily and have faced multiple members of team ICBM (to which the deck is linked) in local tournies with it.  I had great success with multiple Engineered Explosives.  EE with 2 counters is huge. 

Bomberman also runs mana drain and expensive spells you could say.  Also, it combos out.  Bomberman doesn't have this tunnel vision that fish has of trying to keep your resources down and peck away at your life total.   So, it has similar qualities, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it a 'fish' deck.  There has been plenty of successful Bomberman lists in the past that have run only 8 creatures.

Well, I did go 4-0 at Gencon versus both Grim Long and Pitch Long. Granted, it wasn't against Tommy or Steve, but not all of them were slouches either. I won't discount playing against these decks if their pilot isn't one of the top five combo players in North America. After all, that's the usual tournament experience.

What a coincidence!  I ran Bomberman during Gencon as well.  I probably saw you there.  Anyway, my record versus Grim Tutor decks was horrid, as I expected.  Perhaps you are a better player and/or had a better list. 

Against Fish, I've had the Trinket Mage's ability get stifled often. I've also had problems protecting the Salvager. In one sequence of plays, I cast a salvager. My opponent responded with Swords on the Salvager, I protected it with a Mana Drain. He responded by swording it again. I had a brainstorm in hand, so I decided to crack a fetch and brainstorm for a FoW. My opponent stifled the fetch, leaving me with no mana for the brainstorm. Cost him 3 mana. My plays cost me 6 mana and a destroyed mana source. If I can land a permanent which can make up to 4 of a fish player's cards useless, why not do it?

I just had a seizure from reading this. 

Perhaps you should've brainstormed before you had just a fetch remaining.  So, if you had 6 Tundra/Island in play and a fetchland, why not Brainstorm, fetch, then put Salvagers on the stack?  At least before Mana Drain!  Sounds like you walked into Stifle.  I also assume that you didn't really mean that your opponent actually responded to Salvagers with Stp. That's crazy-talk.

@Phele

Let me just say that Disrupt is probably something at it's best when unexpected.  At 1 mana, it fulfills your desire to speed up the deck.  Other than that, I'm fresh out of ideas for you.  We pretty much agree on everything else, I think.

[cophos]

@all players considering running bomberman in the future:
I've tested Bomberman quite excessively in the last few days and JR's List (barring the Sideboard and some odd choices like 3 Brainstorms) is pretty much one of the best builds I've played.
Although the deck wants to go beatdown fairly often, Meddling Mage simply doesn't belong.
Bomberman can apparently described as an aggro/control (and obviously combo) deck, but it's still totally different from fish. (As mentioned before) Meddling Mage's simply not good enough most of the time without an additional piece of disruption. (In fish e.g it can be used to lock a gifts player out off the game by naming Will, completed by an anti tinker card like apprentice.) It's of course good from time to time (see oath), but doesn't really fulfill a crucial role in the deck. (Running only 3 doesn't seem "role being well defined") One of bomberman's strenghts is apparently its versatility (which could be used as an argument pro Mage) however Scroll's simply the more flexile card of the two. Mage only matches the aggro/control theme whereas scroll acts as contro-l (e.g fetching force), combo- (fetching draw spells to complete the combo as fast as possible) and solution (-> truth) card. Therefore it definetly fits more smoothly the deck's plan. Aditionally it's simply a more powerful card. Besides its flexibility it increases the (virtual) number of threats: later in the game e.g, both players exhausted card-wise, a topdecked scroll can end a game immediately. Granted it's effect isn't as strong as in MDG it's still one of the better cards to put into deck. (If the deck's stronger than MDG in general is a totally different question and shall not be answred now. Aditionally the comparison is pretty flawed either way, since other decks like CS used to run Scroll in the past with good results. Therefore it's not so much a deckshaping card than just a powerful tool bluebased control/combo decks should use or at least considering this option. (4's probably too many. But imo one's well off by running 3. ) )
Not to mention that it is much better than Mana Leak in many situations. Granted leak's better against combo the first few turns for obvious reasons, (No carddisadvantage) it won't offer aditional benefits unlike scroll. (Mana Leak's also a pure control card and won't help much when trying getting the combo on. (Besides protecting it.) On the other hand it's useless against hate which hit the table and pretty bad in the late game. Therefore Scroll is again the more versatile and powerful card.)

As a conclusion I think that scroll (even if it's probably not needed as a four-off or even needed at all) is simply a better card than the situational Mages/Leak. Both of these card were used with quite some success because of being "allright (or some sort of conservative deckbuilding). The addition (or the ability to add) of either of the two shows the deck's versatility but limits it at the same time.

- Phil

[Gabethebabe]

I´ve been tinkering abit with JR´s list as well and had a lot of thoughts that have been posted here as well.

I added the 4th brainstorm and replaced strip by the 5th fetch.

I have replaced Echoing Truth for Rebuild and included Academy and Mana Crypt for two basic lands. I´d really like to add the 4th Merchant Scroll, because drawing three in the early game is just good.
But I don´t know what to cut for it. Would cutting a Salvagers be a bad idea? In testing I´ve found that frequently they came too early.

[cophos]

I´ve been tinkering abit with JR´s list as well and had a lot of thoughts that have been posted here as well.

I added the 4th brainstorm and replaced strip by the 5th fetch.

I have replaced Echoing Truth for Rebuild and included Academy and Mana Crypt for two basic lands. I´d really like to add the 4th Merchant Scroll, because drawing three in the early game is just good.
But I don´t know what to cut for it. Would cutting a Salvagers be a bad idea? In testing I´ve found that frequently they came too early.

- In testing I've found that they came too late...
Although I used too run a version with 3 Salvagers for quite some time and don't have much experience with the forth under my belt I still think he's a needed inclusion. We're running a 3 card combo without any tutors. Therefore one has to increase the odds by simply running enough copies of each individual card.
- Mana Crypt is a card I've been running since the start. Not running it is simply a mistake.
- Before cutting basics I'd rather abandon the Strip Mine and the Loa. The latter's just too slow in the current environment and Mine's simply a random card that doesn't fit into the deck's game plan at all. (Obviously both of them can be amazing in certain circumstances, but having UU up by turn 2 is crucial and I'd not want to weaken my manabase my running unneeded cards. This however's more or less a personal preference. (I don't run mine but loa e.g). One has to consider the pro's and con's of the two options. (safer manabase vs. brokeness. Without them you'll be better at having drain mana early (and a safer base in general) but later in the game they would apparently be better than a basic often.)

[mgouthro]

Yea, I tested the SS heavily and have faced multiple members of team ICBM (to which the deck is linked) in local tournies with it.  I had great success with multiple Engineered Explosives.  EE with 2 counters is huge. 

Bomberman also runs mana drain and expensive spells you could say.  Also, it combos out.  Bomberman doesn't have this tunnel vision that fish has of trying to keep your resources down and peck away at your life total.   So, it has similar qualities, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it a 'fish' deck.  There has been plenty of successful Bomberman lists in the past that have run only 8 creatures.

I agree that there are many successful lists that run 8 creatures. Does that mean it's the best creature count in every metagame or against any deck? The Bomberman deck that made top eight on day one at Rochester ran 8 creatures. Then he faced Tommy playing SS and got completely wrecked. There may have been many reasons why that happened. The guy piloting the Bomberman list is no slouch, having played it steadily for close to a year if not more. However, one of those reasons may be because he didn't have an extra threat that could have blocked the Cutpurse.

I know that the list I ran at Gencon worked quite well against the SS. I played it twice during the World Champs and defeated I@n 2-0 along the way. Maybe the Meddling Mage is pretty good. Post sideboard, the extra explosives can be great.

What a coincidence!  I ran Bomberman during Gencon as well.  I probably saw you there.  Anyway, my record versus Grim Tutor decks was horrid, as I expected.  Perhaps you are a better player and/or had a better list.

Awesome! Did you play in a mirror match at any point in time? I put in a lot of time testing against Long decks and only really expected to do 50-50 against them. For all the combo that everyone talked about there, I never really got to play a lot of matches against it though! For example, in the World Champs, I ran into 2 U/W fish decks, 2 SS, 1 CS, 1 UbaStax (pwned by Vroman), 1 EBA, and a strange Aggro/Workshop deck from Mark Trogdon. 

Against Fish, I've had the Trinket Mage's ability get stifled often. I've also had problems protecting the Salvager. In one sequence of plays, I cast a salvager. My opponent responded with Swords on the Salvager, I protected it with a Mana Drain. He responded by swording it again. I had a brainstorm in hand, so I decided to crack a fetch and brainstorm for a FoW. My opponent stifled the fetch, leaving me with no mana for the brainstorm. Cost him 3 mana. My plays cost me 6 mana and a destroyed mana source. If I can land a permanent which can make up to 4 of a fish player's cards useless, why not do it?

I just had a seizure from reading this. 

Perhaps you should've brainstormed before you had just a fetch remaining.  So, if you had 6 Tundra/Island in play and a fetchland, why not Brainstorm, fetch, then put Salvagers on the stack?  At least before Mana Drain!  Sounds like you walked into Stifle.  I also assume that you didn't really mean that your opponent actually responded to Salvagers with Stp. That's crazy-talk.

Yeah, I meant I resolved a Salvager and then the sequence proceeded from there. Granted, the sequence that I followed probably wasn't optimal, but this was close to mid-game and my life total had dropped somewhere around 10. I had something like: 2xTundra, 1xIsland, 1xFlooded Strand, 1xOff-colour Mox, 1xSol Ring. There was pressure on the table in a Dark Confidant. It had flipped a Sword once. I could get to dangerously low life since I didn't have a blocker and he has more creature threats than me in his deck. If my Salvager was good, I could have started recurring a Spellbomb to stabilize.  However, my opponent had just three mana open and I wasn't expecting 2 x Swords and a Stifle. My hand was pretty good, so I wanted to hold off on the Brainstorm until it could have been more critical. Hence, I followed that route and got plastered for it. Can't win them all!

In the end, whatever build of Bomberman you use is meta-game dependent and requires specific testing against the matchups you expect to see. There are advantages and weaknesses to running both a more combo-centric version of the deck and a creature-centric version. To me, Bomberman feels like CSlaver. It feels like it can handle playing against any deck and rarely is there a completely unwinnable matchup. If you can find a Tier 1 deck that can handle Bomberman easily and is good against the rest of the field, please let me know. There are times we'd just like to stomp the deck in the local meta!  :lol:

[Phele]

Nevertheless I think that Merchant Scroll has some bad disadvantages in this deck.

The strongest one: with Merchant Scroll you have to add even more solutions in the maindeck which Bomberman already does a lot. In JRs build I see 3 Aether Bomb, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 EE, 1 Tormods Crypt, 1 Echoing Truth and 1 Wipe Away, makes 8 pretty conditional cards. While the artefacts are obvious choices as Trinket Mage ist the card this deck is build around, the blue bouncer are just in for the benefit of adding Merchant Scroll. In my eyes questionable when you could add extra Thirsts, Brainstorms, Mana Leak or Cunning Wish.

The last one - the Wish -  is the one I want to recommend the strongest, as he fits to the overall deck strategy imo more smoothly: Every bomberman List already runs Instants like Disrupt, Abeyance, Stifle, Swords to Plowshares, Disenchant in the sideboard - often better choices than the bounce - so the only things you have to add mandatory are Fact and Brainfreeze, which are no wasted sideboard space as it is even possible to board them in certain matchups. With Cunning Wish being solution, counter draw AND win condition (what Scroll isn't) you can build your maindeck much more streamlined. You can cut a Spellbomb for example and don't have to run extra bounce. Even though it costs one mana more I has the added advantage of being instant what you shouldn't underestimate. Its not that random that you sit on three mana during the first or second turn waiting if you have to Wish for Misdirection or using your Mana Leak or to use your Thirst eot.

With running Cunning Wish its obvious that you don't run Merchant Scroll as well so what lays nearer than adding even more counters and more draw. Compare: Where JR runs 4 Merchant Scroll, 1 Spellbomb and 2 bouncers, I run 1 extra Brainstorm, 1 extra Thirst, 1 Senseis Top, 2 Mana Leak, 2 Cunning Wish. Make your call if you think that the 2 bouncers are more flexible than the 2 Mana Leaks but the rest of the cards doesnt give each other that much. And I think that I prefer to see Mana Leak in my hand during the first turns against Combo, Fish and Staxx than Merchant Scroll. After these turns, thats true, the flexibility of Merchant Scroll can shine.

Anyway, I think Merchant Scroll fits better in Gifts which is totally build around it, where you with Gifts can find another game swinging spell beside Ancestral, where you can protect your Ancestral much better with added pitch counter and where the solutions you can find with it (Chain, Rebuild) fit much better to the main win condition - storming with Tendrils. All this can't be said to the build of JR.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that his build has serious design flaws or that Merchant Scroll is such a bad card in this deck, in my opinion I just see the "allright" spells as you call it fit better in Bomberman. Conservative deckbuilding doesn't have to be weak.

To me, Bomberman feels like CSlaver. It feels like it can handle playing against any deck and rarely is there a completely unwinnable matchup. If you can find a Tier 1 deck that can handle Bomberman easily and is good against the rest of the field, please let me know.

So true. I had the same CS feeling with it since I play the deck. And hasn't there been a pretty similar discussion on adding Merchant Scroll in CS or not

[cophos]

Wishes simply won me a fair share of my testing runs. But as you (Phele) mentioned correctly, they certainly don't belong in a deck which's already featuring Scrolls. That's the reason I didn't wrote about them in my previous post since I mainly wanted to show the benefits of scroll over more conditional cards.
As long as you run Fact or Fiction in the Sideboard Cunning Wishes ar at least as neckbreaking as Scrolls in the lategame while providing even more flexibility throughout the whole game. However They're apparently more expensive to cast which makes them weaker vs aggresive strategies in the early game. (Which you compensate by running Leaks, which shows another strenght of the wishes: more room in the maindeck.)
But let's not forget: Scrolling for Ancestral Recall is HOT. (Same goes with scrolling for Force (see above) and scrolling for Mana Drain.  Seriously, these options alone could warrant its addition.

Anyway, I think Merchant Scroll fits better in Gifts which is totally build around it, where you with Gifts can find another game swinging spell beside Ancestral, where you can protect your Ancestral much better with added pitch counter and where the solutions you can find with it (Chain, Rebuild) fit much better to the main win condition - storming with Tendrils. All this can't be said to the build of JR.

Nevertheless he made Top4 in a very competitive field. As I mentioned earlier: Scrolls best use's to be found in MDG. Without a doubt. But that's not an argument against running it. (CS uses Thirst's way better than Bomberman does.. go figure ;D.) Scroll is strongly associated with MDG, nevertheless it's a very powerful card in most control/combo decks and shouldn't be dismissed without careful consideration.
Actually I already touched most of these subjects above, I can't add that much within 10 minutes ...

AND win condition (what Scroll isn't)

This is obviously true but not an argument pro running Wishes, at best a bonus when doing so.

[Phele]

But let's not forget Scrolling for Ancestral Recall is HOT. (Same goes with scrolling for Force (see above) and scrolling for Mana Drain.  Seriously, these options alone could warrant its addition.

True, Scrolling for Ancestral is hot. But scrolling for Force or Mana Drain isn't the much hotter move than just playing Mana Leak or wishing for Misdirection. Not at all. So this argument is all about scrolling for Ancestral with the disadvantage of running more conditional cards like the extra bounce. For me, thats not enough to add Scroll in the deck. But this is obviously the point to discuss. Cause when scrolling for ancestral would be so hot Scroll should be certainly added in every Control-Combo deck running Drains and Forces out there, namely Oath and CS. Even slower Combo-Control decks like IT, TPS or Confidant Tendrils should then run a playset Scrolls - and they don't, even though scrolling for Rebuild is the much hotter move in these builds. And scrolling for bounce in Bomberman is imo the much worse way to take care of threats than just countering them or Wishing for real bullets. So the question is: Is Scrolling for Ancestral so hot, that we have to include in Bomberman?

Nevertheless he made Top4 in a very competitive field. As I mentioned earlier: Scrolls best use's to be found in MDG. Without a doubt. But that's not an argument against running it. (CS uses Thirst's way better than Bomberman does.. go figure ;D.) Scroll is strongly associated with MDG, nevertheless it's a very powerful card in most control/combo decks and shouldn't be dismissed without careful consideration.

Well, there are countless top 8s with bomberman without Scroll so lets pls leave these arguments beside. Even I top8ed with it in a smaller but really competetive meta. The core base of Bomberman is pretty strong with or without Scroll.  And as said above: Scroll also should not be added easily without serious consideration. Where Scroll is THE tutor in Gifts, in Bomberman its Trinket and Scroll just an nice addition.

This is obviously true but not an argument pro running Wishes, at best a bonus when doing so.

NOt when you take in consideration, that you get maindeck space by doing so.

Edit: Btw, Cophos: Du hast Post und auf Deutsch redet sich doch glaube ich leichter  :lol:

[cophos]

Well, there are countless top 8s with bomberman without Scroll so lets pls leave these arguments beside. Even I top8ed with it in a smaller but really competetive meta. The core base of Bomberman is pretty strong with or without Scroll.

Granted Scroll is not an auto-4off it's at least worth some consideration. The strong core you mention could unfortunately be an obstacle in deckbuilding: It's solid enough to win even when running suboptimal cards..

[JR]

I don't quite understand why my use of Echoing Truth and Wipe Away are labeled as suboptimal or bad, and cards I just put in to help scroll. I put them in over two disenchants, which are easily just as conditional. I think to fully understand the way that I use these two cards, you have to understand how I play the deck. Note here that I am not saying that I play the deck any better than anyone else, or that my ways are superior. I play an extremely dedicated control route in every matchup with the exception of Slaver and MDG. Merchant scroll for FoW is strictly better for this play style than mana leak, as I find that leak is only good when people walk into it. If someone slows down the game to a crawl because they know I have drain or Force in my hand, scroll has accomplished more than leak ever will. I feel that bounce, more universal than disenchant in every aspect, also better serves this purpose.

I go back and forth on cunning wish. As of late, I have found it pretty terrible. I think it is to clunkly, and I have more answers maindeck so it is not necessary.

I have never had a losing record at a tournament with this list. I have won or split 3 pieces of power with it in the last three months. I think I do well with it because my changes suit my playstyle; I can be supercontrolling, abuse the toolbox approach, and then be aggressive when I can afford to be. Whomever offered up in this thread that this deck is totally customizable is spot on. Obviously there are weaker choices, but I don't think that any of mine are for the metagame I see around here.

@MGouthro- I, like Methuselahn, got absolutely demolished by long at Gencon; my only losses were to long variants. What did you run that you found effective against it? Please PM me, I do not want to derail the thread more than it already has been.

Oh, and thanks to those of you who have complimented my list.

JR.

[slyfer]

Just want to share my thouths about Bomberman....
Generally my opinions agree with mgouthro.

I personally succeeded in making top4 in a about 50 person turnament here in italy, after a couple of months testing and tweaking

bomberman for my meta. Meta was 60% with p9 deck, my score was:
Round 1: TPS won 2-1
Round 2: Goblin RW, he started 3 times "mountain-lackey" me no force. Meddling mage MVP. won 2-1
Round 3: TPS lost 2-1
Round 4: Oath won 2-1
Round 5: Mud with ravager and mishra factory. won 2-1
Round 6: CS intentional draw

top8: UB fish won 2-0 (list with chalice-vial mesmeric demon-gilded drake-bouncer combo)
top4: CS lost 2-0 because of his superior card drawing (intuition, accumulated knowledge, braisntorm, thirst AND cunning wish)

My list was RED splashed for 1 pyrite spellbomb maindeck, and 3 Rack and ruin (insted of Energy flux), and 2 red elemental blast

(probably gorilla shamans would have been better).
Mana base was adapted like: 4 island 4 tundra 2 volcanic 4 flooded
Basically i took away 1 plain (bad for getting drain online) and 1 polluted

Against combo i tried 4 abeyance, because they cantrip, but unfortunately don't prevent necro and bargain (like orim chant)

Fish is a problematic match up, for example i'm quite afraid of grim lavamancer in UR builds. Usually i waste my needle on mishra

factory or wasteland, depends, but grim lavamancer online can destroy all the mages.... and you face against null rod-denial deck that

kills your combo.

2 maindeck disenchant imho is simply superior to cunning wish because:
1) quicker answer and cheaper mana
2) flexible against many match ups (artifact, oath, dragon, null rod of fish, chalice)
3) free slot of the side: considering stax match up, i can side in 3 flux and 1 seal, and i still have my 2 disechant main deck, so i have 6

 pwnage cards + 8 counters.

DEVELOPING ADVICE:
i'm now trying a mini BLACK splash for DURESS IN THE SIDEBOARD.
Just try 1 undeground sea main deck, and take away 1 land (1 plain for example)
-4 abeyance + 4 duress in the side.

Against combo they are TEH NUTS, against combo-control THE nuts and you have some slot to side in because you can take away

1 pithing needle and 2 disenchant (pretty useless) and side in 3 duress.
So you have mages + duress + 8 counters + your uw combo threath.

I also run 1 SENSEI DIVING TOP for the third bomb, it's very nice, with tolarian academy lets you manipulate the hell.