R/G Beatz - viable or not

[hitman]

I don't know why every deck designed to beat top tier decks doesn't play Tormod's Crypt mainboard.  It's so good against a huge chunk of the field.   I also think Shattering Spree should be played over Artifact Mutation and Tin Street Hooligan.  I understand about it increasing your clock but it hits more, comes out faster and can't really be countered.  If you're worried about Collosus, why not play Welders.  They're good against Stax and Slaver and can get rid of a Collosus.  Maybe you could even incorporate some Welder tricks in your deck.  You play Mongrel so Memory Jar could be good.  Playing cheap artifact disruption like Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crpyt, Chalice, etc.  would make it easy to weld things out.  I think a problem with a list like this is that the disruption costs too much.  You want to be playing threats and disrupting them at the same time.  How fast is Ohran Viper going to come out and make any kind of difference?  I think a mostly unpowered creature based deck shouldn't be playing high costing creatures much because bounce is played everywhere.  They don't need to kill your creatures.  Maybe just bounce them a couple times to Time Walk themselves a couple turns and your opponent has advanced his gameplan pretty far.  I don't even know if this is a good idea but maybe Skullclamp wouldn't be bad for a pseudo draw engine.  You only need to clamp your creatures when you've exhausted your hand and are out of options.  Rootwallas and Welders would make good clampable creatures.  Good luck with your deck.

[stonecold]

I like Shattering Spree alot as well, I'm not a fan of TinStreet Hooligan. I mean it's no different than Viridian Shaman and those aren't played alot.
Tormod's Crypts are great but I don't ever play them main board especially with Null Rod in my maindeck. And against things like Fish, Crypt is a dead card. Root Maze takes care of Dragon all by itself so Crypt isn't needed there (Someone ALWAYS plays Dragon). That new Ichorid thing has a few ways to stop Crypt (Pithing Needle, Ancient Grudge).
Though it's still a good card for alot of the field.
Speaking of Ichorid, does anyone have any other good sideboard cards for it (Besides Crypt that is). That is also gaining popularity like Empty the Warrens.

[TopSecret]

If you need sideboard hate for Ichorid, that isn't Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, or Pithing Needle (some of the usual answers), I would suggest trying either Elephant Grass or Loaming Shaman. Unfortunately, Loaming Shaman is three mana,
and Elephant Grass has a cumulative upkeep, but they might provide decent alternatives to typical sideboard cards.

[Myriad Games]

Pyrostatic Pillar is not particularly effective against Gifts anymore. Previously, they had to get up to 10 spells in order to Tendrils you lethally. This generally meant that if you resolved Pyrostatic Pillar, they were much more hard pressed to kill you (having to get another Tendrils, et al.). Post-Warrens, they can just mini storm up, take 8 damage, get 8 dudes on the table and then you're locked under your own Pillar and your life total is more relevant.

Fox is right, Vandal is better against Stax than Shaman, while Shaman is better against Gifts / Control and also good against Stax. The combination of Shaman and Welder should not be ignored, but it doesn't come up all that often.

With regard to dealing with Warrens tokens - if you have to lose one or two of your guys to kill all of theirs, it's worth it.

[stonecold]

Elephant grass! I like that!
That's what I like about R/G, weirdo sideboard cards that come out of nowhere!

Yeah I agree Pillar isn't as useful anymore, I used to run them maindeck but now I am doubtful about them all together. They help but maybe 2 in the side would only be needed.

Well I'm starting a basic list for my new r/g version
I have this so far

4x Grim Lavamancers
4x Kird Apes
4x Gorilla Shaman
4x Magma Jet (or Dead/Gone)
3x Null Rod
4x River Boa (maybe Wild Mongrel)
3x Root Maze

plus the basic Wooded Foothills, Wastelands, Strip Mine Etc.
Still debating on Rancor or Keen Sense as well
Any other thoughts about hat should go in?


Elephant Grass! Genius!

[TopSecret]

     If debating Rancor vs. Keen Sense,
there are a couple factors that I would consider.

     Keen Sense is probably better in a heavily disruptive build.
Against aggro, if you are playing a lot of burn,
then the enchanted creature will have more chance of hitting
and providing more burn to clear the way.

     Against Gifts, if you run a lot of mana denial,
Keen Sense can help you draw more cards to slow them down.

     If there're a lot of creature removal running around, though,
Keen Sense isn't so good.

     Rancor, on the other hand, is better in a more damage focused deck.
It improves your clock. Also, it allows your creatures to trade in combat
with aggro repeatedly, provided they don't remove your creature
in response to you Rancor'ing it.

     Unfortunately, I don't think that R/G Beatz can outclass most decks
in terms of a clock. So, provided your deck packs enough disruption,
and you don't typically have trouble with blockers or creature removal,
I think that Keen Sense is better.

     I'm a little biased, though. If you are considering Rancor,
I think that you might want to add another creature or more disruption first.

[Dralock]

I swear the other r/g thread JUST died a month ago.



Rancor all the way.

[Thegreatgonzo]

a funny way to solve the DSC problem might be Meekstone. Unless they find bounce, you will only take 11 damage, or 0, if root maze is in play. You can't play gibbons anymore of course.
It also helps against grunts. Along with orb of dreams and/or tanglewire, it could even make the Oath matchup winable

By the way, in my opinion, Goblin welder is not a viable solution to dsc. I can't remember all games I won via Tinker/DSC with welder on opponent's board. All it takes is a Yawgmoth's will (or a chain of Timewalk, if welder was cast less than a turn ago).
The thing is, Welder needs to be there before colossus, otherwise it's too late (it will be countered or raced). So your opponent knows he have to play around. I tried welder (with and against), and wasn't very impressed. But again, maybe that's just me

Edit : It doesn't work with Meekstone, but I had a decent succes with Argothian wurm. Is either a recurring Icestorm or a good finisher. I swear he is worth the try

[Dralock]

The oath matchup has always been winnable. I don't see why you would think otherwise.

As is the gifts match and stax match.

R/G dies to renewable, consistent threats that are bigger than its own. How would that have ever changed?

[AmbivalentDuck]

And anything that can win before turn 4 through Chalice/Root Maze/Rod.

Simian Spirit Guide and Keen Sense are interesting though.

R/G beats just isn't an amazing choice in a Tendrils/EtW meta. 

[keys]

I would say Oath is virtually an unwinnable matchup simply because R/G has almost no efficient solution to pro-red Angels, and it has no hope of winning in a race.  Also, packing enchantment hate solely for Oath spreads R/G pretty thin in the utility department.

And anything that can win before turn 4 through Pillar/Root Maze/Rod.

Simian Spirit Guide and Keen Sense are interesting though.

R/G beats just isn't an amazing choice in a Tendrils/EtW meta. 

QFT.

I'd like to see what a R/B/g Beatz could do with tools like Extirpate and Duress/Cabal Therapy.  Otherwise, I think TMWA or UW Fish is the direction Vintage Aggro/Control is headed.

[Implacable]

And anything that can win before turn 4 through Chalice/Root Maze/Rod.

Simian Spirit Guide and Keen Sense are interesting though.

R/G beats just isn't an amazing choice in a Tendrils/EtW meta. 

How about Chalice+Root Maze+Rod+Choke+Blasts?  I'd like to point out here that the entire point of playing R/G Beats is that you have a massive amount of deck-space to play with, unlike in most other decks, where most of the card-slots are already filled.  Furthermore, speaking as a Gifts player, it is very difficult to deal with multiple pieces of disruption on the board and a very fast clock.  That's why Stompy is the perfect metagame deck against straight Control, and as silly as that statement sounds, it is absolutely true.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I don't know if I'd play RG beatz even in a completely Slaver and Gifts meta.  I mean, they *would* adapt to having to kill enchantments.  And EtW is pretty solid against Aggro.

Stompy is probably best in a mixed Fish/Slaver meta.

[keys]

How about Chalice+Root Maze+Rod+Choke+Blasts?  I'd like to point out here that the entire point of playing R/G Beats is that you have a massive amount of deck-space to play with, unlike in most other decks, where most of the card-slots are already filled.  Furthermore, speaking as a Gifts player, it is very difficult to deal with multiple pieces of disruption on the board and a very fast clock.  That's why Stompy is the perfect metagame deck against straight Control, and as silly as that statement sounds, it is absolutely true.

Beatz doesn't really have a fast clock... Efficient creature and artifact removal is pretty much the only advantage it has over Fish and TMWA.

UW Fish has essentially the same clock, but with more disruption.  Take these comparisons:

Wild Mongrel or River Boa                 =   Meddling Mage
Hidden Gibbons                              =   Jotun Grunt
Gorilla Shaman, Goblin Vandal or TSH =   Kataki
Kird Ape                                        =   Isamaru, Savannah Lions
Grim Lavamancer                             =   Stormscape Apprentice, Waterfront Bouncer,  Icatian Javelineers

Further, both Fish and Beatz play Null Rod.  Fish plays free counters and has access to broken draw, whereas Beatz has blasts and Naturalize-type effects.  Fish plays bounce (e.g. Echoing Truth) which is better than Beatz' Burn against EtW/DSC.  Permanent disruption in the form of Root Maze, Pyrostatic Pillar and Blood Moon are solid tools, but I would argue that they are not superior to instant disruption such as Orim's Chant, Stifle, Duress (yeah I know, not an instant but you get the idea), because they can be bounced before they take effect.

The only way R/G Beatz will come back in its traditional form is if Fish and Stax somehow dominate the meta.

[Ryan_Royal]

I too have experienced the fact that R/G Beatz is not what it used to be.

I realized, that what wins R/G beatz games is really disruption, not a fast clock. Thus I decided to take the deck in a new direction:

///CREATURES: 20
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Mongrel
4 River Boa

///SPELLS: 11
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet
4 Keen Sense

///DISRUPTION: 7
4 Root Maze
3 Null Rod

///MANA: 22
R Mox Ruby
R Mox Emerald
R Black Lotus
R Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Taiga
4 Stomping Ground
3 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

///SIDEBOARD: 15
4 Meekstone
3 Pyroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ground Seal
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Naturalize

Here's an explantion of the decks internal synergies:

First of all, four Root Maze are pretty deciding regarding the other card choices Root Maze means:

- A two-turn delay for people fielding fetchlands.

- Time to break a Mox before it's ever tapped for mana.

- That Stomping Grounds are viable and very syngergetic, ideally dropping Root Maze turn 1 and Kird Ape turn 2.

- That Spirit Guides are better than Moxen once Maze is out. Spirit Guides can pull so many tricks off this deck, IE burn, regeneration, doing in a mox, dropping creature + wasteland, or even double as creature #21-26!

Also, we have 4 Meekstone in the sideboard. I even considered running these in the main. Meekstone means:

- Goodbye to DSC. If a Root Maze is out you do not even have to worry about the initial 11 damage.

- Reduced worries about Grunt (although he _is_ a though one).

- That Wild Mongrel can randomly dominate the table becomming 3/3 at times and still untapping the morning after.

- Running Keen Sense over Rancor. Rancor has possibly done more for R/G beatz than any card since Kird Ape. But with running Keen Sense, R/G Beatz has a reliable source of cards for the first time in its history. It's not that Keen Sense is better than Rancor off the bat, but with 4 possible Meekstones Rancor is pretty bad for syngergy.

Running 4 Keen Sense means:

- That you have a free card every turn if you slap it on a Lavamancer.

- That you can pitch even more cards to Wild Mongrel and then fuel Lavamancer. This is even better than it seems at a glance, as multiple Root Mazes and Null Rods are simply dead in your hand.

- That Magma Jet is probably better than Fire//Ice or Dead//Gone as it gives you even more library manipulation.

- That you need to prioritize evasion more than you usually do. River Boa is pretty good evasion in this format. Other contenders for two-drop #5-8 include: Mire Boa, Dryad Sophisticate, Fireslinger(!), or Radha Heir to Keld (I know she has no evasion but she fuels burn!).

Questions to ponder:

- Doing to the disruption-heavy extreme is a commitment of all-or-nothing proportions. Does Kird Ape need to go in favor of a one-drop with some kind of evasion or utility?

- Passing up Wild Mongrel means passing up the ability to utilize multiple Root Mazes or Fuel Lavamancer but the replacements mentioned above all have superior evasion or utility. At least on their own.

[silvernail]

I'd have to say that Artifact Mutation or Dead / Gone are probably better answers to DSC than Meekstone, and dead / gone can burn fish's X/1 guys if Grunt isnt around, while AM can hit other artifacts.

Also do Ground Seals stop grunt from targetting cards for its CU or does grunt not target ?

[madmanmike25]

I too have experienced the fact that R/G Beatz is not what it used to be.

I realized, that what wins R/G beatz games is really disruption, not a fast clock. Thus I decided to take the deck in a new direction:

I'm not really seeing the new direction, just subbing in keen sense for rancors.  A few things:

Magma Jet is better than lightning bolt for the sheer utility, play with 4.

I would take Silvernails suggestion about Dead/Gone.  I would play with them maindeck, it gives you an answer to an early Tinker or Oath while still being able to pick off Welders, Mages, Confidants, etc..

You also need to evaluate which is the best disruption between Null Rod, Root Maze, Chalice, and dare I say, Pyrostatic Pillar.(yes, I dared)  ArtMut is GREAT in the SB vs Stax/Shop Aggro.

Also do Ground Seals stop grunt from targetting cards for its CU or does grunt not target ?

I don't believe that Ground Seal interferes with Grunts ability as the word 'Target' isn't used, I may be mistaken however.

[stonecold]

I would play Dead/Gone. It's never useless like Meekstone can be at times.
Don't forget about something vs. Empty the Warrens for your sb. Slice and Dice was mentioned before and I think Warrens is popular enough now to include it.
Grunts can be a real pain, I was thinking maybe using Pyrokinesis (that's the red pitch card right?) for extra hate against them in the side.
A Chalice set on one really hurts this deck, do you think Shattering Spree is also needed (or maybe even Meltdown)
And I would use the new Green Seal of Cleansing over Naturalize.
That's a very good shell for the deck Ryan, I'm going to work off that and see what else we have missed.

[Kieranwolf]

I have quite a bit of theory, and a little experience to share on this subject.

On the Choke discussion:

No, I don't think it's worth a spot, maindeck or side. How many times will you get it to combo with Root Maze? I found that against Gifts and CS, one always gets countered. Your hate cards need to be as concentrated and cheap as possible. Choke by itself isn't enough to slow Gifts down enough to make its 3-mana casting cost justifiable. Chalice and Root Maze are far cheaper and, by themselves, more potent.

Aggro can't afford to waste the investment of a single mana or card slot on any card that isn't top-notch in power. Even Wild Mongrel is too slow a clock without support in Life from the Loam, Rootwalla and (sometimes) Arrogant Wurm. Unfortunately, without discard outlets like Zombie Infestation and Aquamoeba, madness cards that aren't cute and reptilian (and low cc) make for bad choices.

You need the fastest clock you can get, and balancing that with sufficient disruption (especially with the R/G card base) is pretty hard. The only thing that allows you to settle for a slow clock (more than four turns or so) is a hard lock on your opponent's mana base. That's right. Null Rod, Choke, and Root Maze (an impossibility against any blue deck worth its salt).

I can definitely vouch for Seal of Primordium. Most of my test lists have at least three. Thus, a good disruption suite typical of my lists could be something like:

4 Root Maze
4 CotV
3-4 Seal
3-4 REB/Pyroblast

Preferably, you'd want to have fewer slots devoted to disruption, but red and green are sparse colors for it. Frankly, if it wasn't for Root Maze, I'd have scrapped the whole idea of reviving R/G beats a long time ago. I don't think Artifact Mutation is actually that good anymore, except in Stax-Heavy metagames. Seal takes care of enchantments like Oath, too, and it comes into play before it's needed (allowing it to be allowed to resolve a bit more often). Red Blasts are your only form of direct hand disruption, so I consider them pretty important in the MD. It's preferable to use them aggressively, like Duresses and Cabal Therapies, only after you cast your bomb instead of before.

As for threats, I think Ohran Viper is neat, but the casting cost makes me nervous. Keen Sense is an interesting idea, though I can't help but think of how many folks still use Curiosity in Fish nowadays. Better than Rancor, certainly, but Rancor stopped striking my fancy after I found that I'd rather have more creatures instead, in case the first two get countered. Threat density is just as critical as disruption in a deck with no combo win. Threat diversity is also a good thing, especially with Chalice in the main.

4 Wild Mongrel
3-4 Rootwalla
4 Mishra's Factory
3-4 Grim Lavamancer

Factory, of course, is there because I want to be able to cast Chalice @ 1 without losing the game. I'm pretty sure that the rest of the deck would be filled by cards like Magma Jet, Keen Sense, Life from the Loam, Sylvan Library, and either Spirit Guide. Crop rotation is good utility if you have LftL and Strip Mine, too.

The manabase, unfortunately, really needs fetch lands. R/G doesn't draw a whole lot of cards without paying a whole lot of life (via Sylvan Library). It doesn't have sorceries and instants that give you card advantage in a vacuum like Blue and Black. Four has to be the max, though. Root Maze should really be cast first turn in most games. Wastelands and Strip Mines are still good, though opposing Wastes seem to be growing fewer in number, allowing for fewer basics in the list. I also thought of cards like Centaur Garden and Barbarian Ring, but threshold isn't reliably reached with this deck. Ghitu Encampment and Treetop Village work as colored mana producing substitutes for Mishra's Factory (immune to Root Maze in a way), but they're far less efficient. In the end, I think basics still work just as well as they always have, though Stomping Ground is still good in my book.

3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby

There you have an experimental list with 8-12 open slots. In general, disruption volume should be pretty close to threat volume so that you draw plenty of both. Having just one or the other is a game loss. Cards that offer pure utility are generally few in my lists, but often still useful. I think the most unique thing about R/G is still Root Maze, and how the deck has to be catered to it in order not to suffer from its effect. You can't build a multicolored list that fully synergizes with Root Maze, but you can at least hope you have that one fetch land and piece of jewelery you're likely to draw each game in your opening hand.

So, any ideas on what to put in the empty slots? I also feel as though the sideboards I've seen in lists so far need a lot of improvement. We need answers to ETW. Engineered Explosives? Tremor? Goblin Sharpshooter? =)

Really, Colossus isn't a big deal anymore, as far as I'm concerned. Two Dead / Gone? Other than that, we need graveyard hate and Null Rod. 

I'll have more to offer soon, hopefully.

[Darkenslight]

Is there any potential in running Sirocco in an R/G Beatz deck?

For reference:

Sirocco 
Instant
Target player reveals their hand.  That player pays 4 life for each blue card in their hand or discards it.

[Guli]

I didn't read the thread that carefully but i want to point out that rancor is good in these kinda sligh decks. Even if it is type 1. With good disruption rancor serves as a 1 mana investement for 2 damage/turn with haste. And it comes back. Don't underestimate that card. Good against smokestack aswell.

[Kieranwolf]

Is there any potential in running Sirocco in an R/G Beatz deck?

For reference:

Sirocco 
Instant
Target player reveals their hand.  That player pays 4 life for each blue card in their hand or discards it.

Hmm...Sirocco has always been an interesting card. It's sort of like what happens when you combine first turn Black Vise with Urza's Glasses when at it's best. However, if you think about it, even Pitch Long and Gifts might just shrug and let it resolve, then win next turn because you didn't drop Null Rod or Chalice. Too often dead. I'd run Price of Progress over it in a heartbeat.

I didn't read the thread that carefully but i want to point out that rancor is good in these kinda sligh decks. Even if it is type 1. With good disruption rancor serves as a 1 mana investement for 2 damage/turn with haste. And it comes back. Don't underestimate that card. Good against smokestack aswell.

Good to have you aboard.

[Sethy]

I've been playing R/G beats (though some call my builds closer to R/G phish or something) for about three years now, and I've watched the deck adapt itself to a number of metagames.  I have to say the golden days of R/G in my opinion were back when trinisphere was unrestricted and workshop decks ran rampant throughout the metagame.  R/G just had so many awesome plays against good ol' stax 

In the current meta R/G has a lot more trouble, in my opinion.  First of all the deck has to somehow survive the first two rounds of a tournament.  Any properly metagamed version of R/G is going to have trouble against random matchups, but there are a couple not-so-random matchups that I am more worried about.

As you identified right off the bat, Oath DESTROYS this deck.  Absolutely demolishes it.  Looking at the deck you might expect some sort of combo to be harder on R/G, but nothing is harder than Oath.  Nothing except, perhaps, ichorid.  Now that Ichorid is becoming more popular there may very well be two horrible matchups in the metagame.  Then again my version of R/G runs no graveyard hate...  I think further discussion might be more meaningful after a decklist.

Land/Artifact Mana (22)
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Treetop village
2 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Stomping Ground
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald

Critters (18)
4 Kird Ape
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 River Boa

Utility (8)
3 Sylvan Library
2 Rancor
3 Lightning Bolt

Disruption (12)
4 Null Rod
4 Root maze
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast

Sideboard (15)
4 Krosan Grip
4 Elvish Lyrist
1 Druid Lyrist
4 Artifact Mutation
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Red Elemental Blast

As you can see the deck is highly metagamed, which I think any good R/G build should be.

Card Choices:

The manabase is really nice and I hardly ever find myself having what I would consider mana problems.  I don't even touch the three curve in this deck besides the spirit guides, which are removed for mana as often as they are cast.  Therefore I am perfectly comfortable sitting on 2 lands and accomplishing everything I need to in a turn.  The 2 Treetop Villages have provided the clock I need at times, and at worst they are a forest that comes into play tapped (which under root maze makes them look even better  ).

The creature base needs some explanation.  River Boa is somewhat of a relic of the past.  I don't really like him that much, and after reading this article I will probably playtest hidden gibbons/gorillas as well as Ohran Viper.  I'm particularly fond of the Viper    Kird Ape is the backbone of the deck, since this deck doesn't exactly beat opponents down with remarkable speed and tends more toward disruption.  Gorilla Shaman is a necessary utility creature for obvious reasons, but some people might question the need for Gorilla Shaman on top of Null Rod.  Destroying artifact mana sources IS that important with this deck.  If you give gifts or slaver as much mana as they want you are going to lose every game against them, no questions asked.  Shut their mana off and you have a fighting chance.  The Spirit Guides also are a bit unorthadox, but being able to drop a turn one sylvan or null rod, or having root maze with REB backup is AMAZING with this deck in this metagame.  The synergy between Simian Spirit Guide and pyro/reb is amazing as well, since it basically allows you to FoW any blue spell - a play that turns up more than you'd think and ALWAYS catches opponents by surprise.  Also in the phish matchup your 'mana acceleration' turns into 2/2 creatures which pose a real threat.  Slap rancor on any one of these guys and your opponent is staring down quite the clock.  I am rarely sad to see 1-2 of these in hand, but when I get more than that it becomes inefficient, and I may consider cutting one of the ESGs for some other creature or utility spell.

The utility in this deck is essentially what allows the deck to exist in the first place.  Without sylvan library this deck tends to draw a lot of dead cards.  It may be wise to include a 4th, and I used to run 4 in a previous build.  Sure sometimes you draw two, but sylvan is not only a prime counter target (so having a second is sometimes nice) but holding one dead card in opening hand is better than drawing 5 dead cards right afterward.  As  you may notice there are plenty of cards you do not want to draw duplicates of in this deck (Null Rod, Root Maze, Sylvan itself) and plenty of potentially "dead" cards that  you may never want to draw at all in certain matchups (REB, Pyroblast, Null Rod, Even Lightning Bolt).  Sylvan wins you games in so many matchups I'm almost talking myself into slapping a fourth copy in the deck right now!  Lightning bolt is becoming something of a necessary evil in this deck.  Usually I end up just shooting them at the head of my opponent, but every so often these cards find a Welder or Phyrexian Negator and it makes them worth all the while.  They are also the one reason my version of R/G can beat U/W phish (though it's not exactly easy...).  I'm never unhappy to see a rancor in opening hand.  These things mean my 1/1 gorilla shaman becomes a 3/1 beatstick of doom, while my respectable 2/3 kird apes are suddenly downright scary 4/3 critters.  That's a five turn clock for those of you who are bad at math.  When you plop one of those types of threats down on turn 2 (and get them swinging right away on turn 2 also) my deck, which is loaded with disruption, becomes tough to beat.  I've tried running more than 2 copies of rancor and find that as bad as it is to sometimes not draw one rancor, it is usually worse to draw 2 copies in an opening hand.  Especially if you have no creature ready to cast it on (which sometimes happens).

The disable of this deck is what has earned it the name R/G Phish in some circles.  Rather than just plopping as many threats down on the board as possible and racing, this build drops one lockdown mechanic, then starts widdling away at an opponent's life.  Null Rod is the single most powerful card that you can be running in this metagame.  Every single deck, with very few exceptions, is or should be either packing this or a full set of moxen.  When you play gifts or slaver from their perspective, null rod pretty much cuts the deck in half.  They have bounce and ways of removing the card, of course, but the point is that this is one card that both decks HAVE to remove.  With new empty the warrens builds, gifts can sometimes build up a mox/mox/dark ritual/empty the warrens play which is tough to recover from, but with extra forms of disruption such as root maze and strip effects this deck quickly makes it an uphill battle for most opponnents packing either of these decks.  Root maze is constantly underestimated and much of its usefulness lies in the inability of opponents to learn to play around it.  If you know how root maze affects your deck it is a lot less of a problem.  REB/Pyroblast is an amazing maindeck card that I would strongly recommend everyone to consider.  Looking at the dominant decks in the format I cannot come up with one good reason to move these to the board.  They are also my only response to tinker, which is practically an autoloss if it hits early.



Gifts is about a 60/40 in my favor,  50/50 post board (if they pack an anti-aggro board)

Slaver is about 70/30 in my favor,  75/25 post board (this is one of my best matchups)

Stax is about 40/60 in their favor,  75/25 post board (with the addition of 4 mutations and 4 grips)

Oath is about 85/15 in their favor, 50/50 post board (in come 5 lyrists, 4 krosan grips)

Ichorid is untested, but my speculation would be that it is heavily in their favor pre and post board.

Phish is about 55/45 in my favor, 40/60 in theirs after Jitte comes in.  This is a matchup that I continue to struggle with.

Variations of control such as landstill, ophidian, 4cc, or any random control matchup is usually slightly in my favor, but random aggro decks tend to outaggro me (even suicide black can sometimes have its way with me) and random combo matchups are probably among my worst.  Someone bringing a combo deck that didn't rely heavily on artifact mana would hose me pretty well.

Hope this helps!

-Sethy

[Kieranwolf]

As much as I love R/G Beatz, I'm starting to think it's not a good choice in a metagame that mostly includes Gifts, fish and combo.

Would a black splash be viable? I can see Duress making it in, along with Leyline/Planar Void (Crypt just doesn't seem nearly as good anymore, when even Ichorid can win through one on a semi-regular basis).

Sethy, I've done a little testing against Gifts packing ETW, and I'm curious about the matchup since you listed it as 60/40 pre-board. For me, it's been very tough to win even when I resolve root maze or chalice @ 0 first turn. Gifts usually hoards moxen, finds a bounce spell and plays ETW after some countered jewelery before I can go lethal with creatures. 8+ goblins can mean game even if I have two blockers, after all.

For reference, here's the Gifts list I've been testing against:

10 Lotus/Petal/Moxen/Crypt/Vault/Ring
3 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Burning Wish
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rebuild
1 Repeal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Empty The Warrens
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Recoup
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB
2 Duress
2 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Shattering Spree
3 REB
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Empty the Warrens
1 RnR

The R/G list goes like this:

4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mountain   
1 Forest   
2 Wooded Foothills   
4 Taiga
1 Strip Mine   
3 Wasteland
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

4 Chalice of the Void   
1 Crop Rotation
4 Keen Sense
4 Root Maze
4 Pyroblast
3 Life from the Loam
4 Seal of Primordium
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Mongrel
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Simian Spirit Guide

As far as the SB goes, I'm really not too sure. Mox Monkey? Crypt?

I'd be interested to see what changes I can make to improve the experimental list here.

[Sethy]

The gifts build that I have playtested against is very similar to that, running one less island, one more underground sea, one less chain of vapors, but one more repeal.  Other than that, very standard build.

As I mentioned before, as far as lockdown/disruption goes I pack

4x REB effect
4x Root Maze
4x Null Rod
4x Gorilla Shaman
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

In this matchup I find Null Rod strictly better than challice.  Why?  Two pretty important reasons.  A:  Null Rod stops all the 0 cost artifacts as well as the 1 drops such as sol ring and mana vault.  This might not seem too big a deal, but when Gifts can actually resolve the big-cost blue spells in the deck and the big-cost win condition of ETW using a reusable sol ring or the equivilant of a dark ritual (mana Vault) it's going to lose you a remarkable number of games.  B:  With CotV one play that I have seen more times than I can be happy with is the Yawg's will + storm + mini ETW.  A player can mini - ETW for six by dropping two moxen that get countered and then casting ETW.  Then with a ritual or 1 cost mana artifact in the yard they can do it again.  My version of R/G can stop an ETW for six, but it will be hard pressed to stop two.  Sometimes keeping the manastones on the board is a better bet.

I can play around, over, and through good Gifts decks simply by cutting their deck where it hurts - the manabase.  If I could find room in this deck for Sphere of Resistance and Trinisphere I might just run them   As it is now, over 1/3 of the deck damages my opponent's mana curve or draw/tutor engine.  With either a Null Rod or Gorilla Shaman/Root maze combo in play moxen and other mana artifacts become useless.  Root Maze slows down mana development by one turn, or often two turns given the popularity of fetchlands.  Red Elemental Blast is used to hit these decks where it hurts the most.  Believe it or not that does not usually involve nailing an Ancestral Recall or Gifts Ungiven, but rather the bounce spell that they will NEED to play in order to resolve a big enough ETW.  As I mentioned before, this deck has two components - the disruption and the beatdown.  The "Lock and Clock" as I like to call them.  The way you are describing your gifts matchup makes it sound like you play a challice and then sit there waiting for them to own you!  My deck drops the lockdown components, then it sets the clock up right away.  7-8 turns is a typical, conservative win for my deck.  That might seem pretty slow, but consider the fact that a normal Gifts deck needs to ramp up to FIVE land cards in play in order to pull off a ETW win (I consider an ETW of 8-10 a win), barring the unlikely Dark Ritual + ETW play (they only have one copy of each card in the deck.  Even given the tutors that are throughout the deck this is a pretty difficult card combo to count on.) or my own play mistake of walking into an obvious mana drain.  If I successfully shut down their artifact mana base (which if I do not I will undoubtedly lose to this deck) consider the likelihood of this deck drawing and dropping 5 lands in 7 successive turns.  They have about 15-16 lands in the typical build (if not fewer), and six or so of those are fetchlands.  Also count on one strip effect from your side of the board.  That makes the 5 land threshold a difficult one to reach.  The next key component of pulling the win off against this deck is saving REB for the spell that really counts.  Let them Gifts all day.  I've even been known to allow my opponent to resolve an Ancestral Recall (though this is more dangerous and arguably stupid, especially if your opponent is packing 2+ copies of Misdirection on top of FoW because their odds of drawing into a free counter becomes too good).  The only truly relevant spells become the bounce spells that will target Null Rod or Root Maze, or the countermagic that may target one of the said lock mechanics.

I've playtested this matchup a ton, and I can honestly say the more you learn about the way that Gifts works the better your odds will be.  I'm not saying that this is an easy matchup, but I AM saying that if you play your cards right it is a slightly favorable matchup.  However my build of R/G doesn't pack any sideboard against this popular deck save one additional copy of pyroblast, so a Gifts build running some random hate such as Flametongue Kavu or even the more typical Pyroclasm can improve their odds of winning post board.

Is R/G a good choice for this metagame?  Well, that depends on how much Oath/Ichorid you are seeing.  These are the two decks that R/G has the most trouble with, hands down, no questions asked, thank you come again.  Lots of Fish in your local area?  No problem!  Add another Bolt and maybe a pair of Chain lightnings, add a third rancor, and watch your matchup vs phish swim favorably from 40/60 in their favor to 60/40 in yours.  Tons of Combo?  It's a simple matter of removing the burn and adding spheres of resistance (with 8 spirit guides you can drop any of these on turn one) or possibly boarding these cards.  But when I go to local tournies and see 4+ Oath decks at every one of them, I find my sideboard turning into an unrecognizable monstrosity that will hardly help me against the other decks in the field.  I had 9 cards dedicated to stopping Oath, and yes, they worked, but they weakened my matchups against other decks so badly that it wasn't worth running R/G anymore.  Ichorid's ability to bypass Null Rod and REB entirely hose my version as well.  When you're staring down a turn 3-4 40/40 trampler and you have no counterspells,  you find yourself wishing you were running something else.  Sideboarding against this deck might be more managable - in come the crypts, out come the null rods, race your heart out - but I have not done enough playtesting against this deck.  I just consider it an auto-loss, and am comfortable doing so since it is not very popular locally.

[Kieranwolf]

You're saying that your R/G list wins on turn 7-8 as a conservative estimate?

I suppose that could be right, but it seems way too late. My list technically has more beatsticks, but yours has 8 spirit guides and some rancors and bolts. Nevertheless, I usually can swing for the win on turn 5 or 6. Either that or I kept a horrible hand.

The Gifts list I posted usually gets an ETW for 6-8 on turn five or six at the latest through a resolved turn 1 Chalice @ 0 AND Root Maze. Perhaps it just got really good draws during testing, but from my perspective I hope you can understand how silly it looks for a Gifts deck to just roll over to Maze, Rod, and a red blast or two and be unable to recover by turn 7 or 8. Usually I have an opening hand with 2-3 disruption cards, and either one gets countered right off the bat or my opponent has a hand full of bounce spells and a faster win.

As far as the differences in hate between our lists, they're relatively small. You have one more Wasteland, and Null Rods instead of Chalices. Also, I have Seals instead of Shamans, which is more or less a judgment call.

(It should be noted that even with Null Rod on the board, a Gifts opponent can use Chain of Vapor to replay multiple moxen for a single Blue mana (and you will face Gifts lists with at least one CoV, since it's widely regarded as the most powerful bounce spell in the game). Against my list with Chalice @ 0, they'd need Y. Will to do that. Also, Chalice @ 1 is pretty useful. These insights may not mean Null Rod is worse, but Chalice is one card that you don't want to underestimate.)

There's got to be something else about my list that's suboptimal against Gifts, then. Good draws shouldn't skew proper testing so much. Two artifacts shouldn't do it either. My stats are the opposite of yours pre-board.


As far as sideboard, I've been thinking about it, and what with some recent shiny additions to my collection, I have a start.

4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Dead//Gone (Shiny)

Crypt is useful against Ichorid, and Dead//Gone is mostly going to try and combat general creature threats and Colossus. I'd say it could be used against Sutured Ghoul, but Ichorid generally tries to cast Cabal Therapy before going with its combo.

4 Artifact Mutation

What matchup does this card really improve, nowadays? Stax, sure, but I'm not totally sure that's necessary. CS too, I suppose...but it doesn't seem very easy to find in tournaments nowadays.

3 Tempting Wurm (Cheap AND Shiny)

Purely experimental. I'd like to see how this one does against Combo and Gifts, since in general the worst things they're going to drop are moxen and Bargain. Needs hand disruption or at least Urza's Glasses, though. Revelation? XD

Seriously, these three spots should ideally be devoted to improving the Ichorid and Oath matchups instead of combo/gifts. more Red blasts are a possibility, but you can only cast so many REB's in a Vintage game. Lyrists are an interesting idea, but they have summoning sickness. Naturalize would actually be my next choice against enchantments, or Grip (but I have fewer free manas to use).

[forests failed you]

For reference there was a 'Vintage Zoo' thread floating around a few months ago, that had quite a few lists that were very similar to the ones being discussed here.  The main difference was that almost every deck in the Zoo thread played white for Jotun Grunt, Issamaru, and Kataki.  Have you guys considered the possibility of splashing White into the lsits?  Here is one of the last WRG aggro decks to be proposed in that thread, just for reference.

Vintage Zoo
A deck proposed by Brian DeMars

GUYS (18)

4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Skyshroud Elite
2 Jungle Lion

3 Jotun Grunt
2 Kataki, Wars Wage

BURN (8)

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fireblast
2 Shrapnal Blast

DISRUPTION (12)

2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Null Rod
2 Root Maze
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Orim's Chant

WASTEEFFECTS (5)
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

NON STRIP MANA (17)

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl

4 Wooded Foothills

3 Plateau
3 Taigia
2 Savannah
1 Mountain

SIDEBOARD

3 REB
3 SPREE
2 REY OF REV
1 STP
2 HELIX
1 DISENCHANT
2 ORIMS CHANT
1 RULE OF LAW

At the time I eventually dismissed the possibilty of playing an aggro deck in Vintage because it almost flat out lost to an early Tinker for Dark Steel Colossus.  However, with most Gifts decks scrapping the Tinker plan in favor of ETW, I think that it is much more likely to build an aggro metagame hate deck.  Especially with Root Maze in play it should be fairly easy from keeping them off an early ETW.  Or at least, it seems a possibilty to beat them early and burn them out.  STP might be a cuttable card to make room for more disruption.  Anyways, I just thought I'd suggest adding some White into the mix for some Zoo-like flavor.

[Kieranwolf]

A white splash might be viable.

STP fills the slots I was attempting to fill with Dead//Gone, only better.

Jotun Grunt is a beast.

So is Kataki.

Orim's Chant could also be useful...but somewhat marginally, I fear.

Rule of Law probably wouldn't fit in very well, but it's also possible.

What about True Believer?

On the other hand...

The general gut feeling I get is that a third color would make Root Maze worse considering the manabase (More fetchlands would be necessary, which become awful with Maze), which almost throws green right out of the mix in terms of usefulness. I mean, what else is Green good for? (Mongrelwalla and Life from the Loam don't count for much, sadly).

Jungle Lion (AKA the second best card ever) = Savannah Lions

Essentially, the list uses Green for three things. Kird Ape (and their apey cousins, who are cleverly masquerading as Skyshroud Elite in order to make the opponent think they're wussy elves), Root Maze, and style. Oh, and Ray of Revelation, which I'd probably replace with Seal of Cleansing anyway.

(MOUNTAIN DEW) EDIT:

I honestly think that Green would be a stronger color all on its own than in a three-color deck with Root Maze (possibly haphazardly) thrown in.

Green has:

1. Fast mana (ESG)
2. Card-drawing (Keen Sense, Sylvan Library)
3. Decent Clock (Don't tell me you haven't been wanting to use Seedtime in Vintage just to see the looks you get when it resolves)
4. Wussy fake elfy Kird Ape wannabes
5. Kird Ape's faithful steed, Jungle Lion (and its inbred cousin, Mtenda Lion)
6. Free elves in Rushwood Legate
7. ROOT MAZE
8. Yawgmoth's Will? I have freakin' Lifeforce (of will). Just try it.
9. Channel -> Hurricane, baby!
10. Seal of Primordium, Molder, Krosan Grip
11. Unyaro Bee Sting, which just happens to be the best direct damage spell EVER.

I saw a mono-green list with Root Maze, Sphere of Resistance and a bunch of mana elves one time. It was so awesome I almost crapped my pants.

END START

[urweak]

Well since this thread seems to be the newest one on the topic, ill dig it up.

This is my current list, it might not be any better then previously posted list. But its there to get some feedback on it, and maybe give others some ideas.

Like many have stated the Oath matchup is brutal. The grips are very nice for that, but I am at the point were its hard to find room for 4 of them in the sideboard.

Leyline is awsome, since you just have to mull till you have one in your hand, and start with it in play, this means its usally game over for Ichorid or other decks that rely on returning stuff from the graveyard.

The biggest problem i have with this setup, is that i get mana screwed often, but with 19 lands i guess that should be expected. Also my sideboard is kinda sad.

So here it is:

Land:
5x Forest
4x Mountain
4x Taiga
3x Wasteland
2x Wooded Foothills (I like playing only 2 since maze kills these)
1x Strip Mine

Green:
4x Root Maze
3x Tarmogoyf (this guy is great, easily a 3/4 or 4/5 with all the stuff in your library plus your opponenets)
2x Hidden Guerrillas (i like playing both hiddens since your not going to get someone to play a instant or artifact all the time)
2x Hidden Gibbons
1x Mire Boa
1x River Boa
1x Krosan Grip
1x Elvish Spirit Guide

Red:
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Kird Ape
3x Gorilla Shaman
3x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Tin Street Hooligan
2x Magus of the Moon (blood moon with a 2/2 body)

Gold:
2x Artifact Mutation

Artifact:
3x Chalice of the Void
4x Null Rod

Sideboard:
1x Pyroclasm (useful for EtW)
4x Red Elemental Blast (should i knock this down to 2 and add 2 Pyroblast to split it up?)
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Krosan Grip
4x Incinerate
1x Artifact Mutation

I would like to add in dead/gone to the sideboard for sure, maybe replacing incinerate

[Kowal]

The deck might be viable if you triple the amount of blood moon effects in it.  It's really one of the few things those colors have going for them.  I was shocked to see it not get mentioned until the last post.