[Deck] Dimir Tendrils

[lordmayhem]

First of all, I'd like to start with an introduction of this build. This started out as a B/W Neo-Sui Tendrils build, the concept being that you can cast a mini-tendrils whilst beating with Gators, Confidants and disruptive little men such as Kataki and Withered Wretch.

Jotun Grunt was used as well, but the justification of it was difficult since it did nothing but beat. Good decks didn't give a damn if I'm beating with a 4/4 if they're setting up their win, or Tinker out a Colossus, or have an army of Blue/White critters of their own. As such, it drifted in and out of the deck.

The advantages of white were that white could handle things that black otherwise could not. A good example would be Seal of Cleansing. Other cards which helped were StP and Balance. But in reality, white is a pretty slow colour. It helps your control options, but offers zilch in terms of drawing/tutoring power (I really did not consider Enlightened Tutor to be good enough to warrant inclusion), whereas blue does.

As such, white was completely removed in favour of blue. Aside from counterspells, blue has some wonderful gems to offer. Ancestral Recall is, without question absolutely amazing. Brainstorm nullifies the disadvantage of On-Top-Of-Library Tutors. And of course; Mystical Tutor since it fetches out all sorts of broken.

Before continuing, the list:

// Lands
        1 Cabal Pit
        3 Swamp
        3 Bloodstained Mire
        1 Library of Alexandria
        3 Polluted Delta
        1 Strip Mine
        3 Underground Sea
        3 Wasteland
// Creatures
        4 Dark Confidant
        3 Dimir Cutpurse
        3 Phyrexian Negator
// Enchantments
        1 Necropotence
// Spells
        1 Ancestral Recall
        3 Brainstorm
        2 Cabal Ritual
        4 Dark Ritual
        1 Echoing Truth
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Rushing River
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        3 Cabal Therapy
        1 Demonic Tutor
        4 Duress
        1 Imperial Seal
        1 Tendrils of Agony
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
// Artifacts
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Sapphire

This particular version of the build no longer functions in the same way as the B/W version. Disruption is significantly less, considering that Withered Wretch and StP were removed. What we have gained from this trade-off is a better draw engine, allowing Tendrils to be lethal.

As it will inevitably crop up:

Why play this over other Tendrils builds?
Simply because it is resilient to hate, and 5 proxy. I don't care about Null Rod, Chalice for 0, Tormod's Crypt, True Believer, Children of Korlis or Stifle. I can still beat down with Gators if I have no hope of comboing out. Yes, Tendrils builds do run Tinker Colossus as a backup win condition, but the difference lies in the fact that 7 of my creatures give me cards, 3 of which make the opponent discard cards. What is a real kick in the pants however, is Chalice for 1, hence Echoing Truth and Rushing River.

Card Choices and Considerations:

Withered Wretch : This bad boy is a beast. It rapes Gifts. I do not have percentages to present, nor am I making any sort of claim that having Wretch in play versus Gifts is "gg thx bye", but its a serious threat to Gifts. Sure they can beat down with Colossus, but I can Duress/Therapy them for a counter and bounce it back. I do not deem it good enough to be in the MD since against decks without grave-based strategies, its just a 2/2. As such, I think it would make a fine sideboard card.

No Repeal / Chain of Vapor : Yes I am aware that they do not do the same thing, but I disregard them for the same purpose. Neither can bounce a chalice for 1, (which is a major blow), whereas truth and river can. Also of note, I do not particularly think its a realistic idea to pay 11 to bounce the Iron Giant.

Dimir Cutpurse wtf? : Yes. Dimir Cutpurse. I like him. He's some good. Oh you wanted reasoning? Well its a 2/2 beater, but that's not all. Its disruptive because your opponent needs to discard cards. It also draws you cards, allowing you to build up a combo hand in short order.

Engineered Plague and/or Massacre : Yes I am aware that this deck rolls over and whimpers about 80% of the time to Fish since it doesn't have any sort of creature kill (aside from Cabal Pit, but that's a one shot deal anyway). Massacre and/or Engineered Plague are something I will definitely use. Plague has the added advantage of staying in play, hence preventing any of that "I don't want you to win so I'm gonna smash your face" nonsense. It also neuters Goblin Welders. Massacre has the advantage of being free and clearing the field.

Rushing River : I like Rushing River. It doesn't get axed by Chalice for 2 and it has kicker. It can return any two permanents. That's pretty neat. I'm considering running 2x Rushing River instead of 2x Echoing Truth for various reasons. One, which I already mentioned, it isn't killed by Chalice @ 2. Two, it can return two different permanents. Consider returning any two Stax artifacts or any two Fish Critters.

I think that's all I have to say really. Opinions, suggestions, constructive criticism....etc are all welcome. 

[That0neguy]

I kinda like the concept of the deck, but a few card choices seem a bit sketchy to me.

Dimir cutpurse - this guy is awful.  He will come down on turn 2 or later off a mox 99% of the time which is really slow for what he does.  You can't ritual him out like a negator.  I would muh rather see a more synergistic larger guy here.  Trinket mage could still be good since it fetches lotus/LED/moxen.

The lack of off color moxen seems wrong as well since you are running the colorless accelerants, wich means you can use the colorless mana.  5 proxy tournies aren't that often anymore, at least as far as ive seen.

I also think you are a little land heavy and threat lite.  You should probably include bargain and/or a few draw 7s.  Unlinke most aggroish decks this deck can really benifit from extra cards just as well as the opponet, since it has the extra reach of tendrils.

A second tendrils might also be justified here since you want to draw it naturally since you are basically using it as a super burn spell.

[Negator131]

I always wondered why this deck didn't get more press. It kind of got lost in the Tournament Reports forum, but it looks really good against the field, and is very similar to your deck on paper.

FSB (Forino Sui Black) (4th @ SCG Boston)
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamps
1 Underground Sea
1 Cabal Pit
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual

4 Dark Confidant
3 Phyrexian Negator

2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Grim Tutor
3 Night's Whisper

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Null Rod

SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Dark Blast
SB: 1 Hurkly's Recall
SB: 1 Rushing River
SB: 1 Tormod's crypt
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Lion's Eye Diamond
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Grim Tutor
SB: 1 Cabal Ritual
SB: 2 Ill Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Underground Sea

This seems to be your deck, except with less Dimir Cutpurse and Rushing River and more Null Rod. Also, this has Chalice of the Void in the sideboard, also excellent against faster combo builds.

[Nehptis]

I've tried decks similar to this.  It can have a bit of a surprse factor.  But, ultimatley it is not strong enough to win Tournies.  The problems are that as a hybrid deck it gets doubly hurt by Storm hate and by Fish hate.  Also, as a hybrid deck it may address the weaknesses of each pure deck but it lacks the power of pure Storm or Fish.

Play it in a couple of tournies and you'll see what I mean.  You'll find yourself winning with Storm sometimes and then losing with Fish draws and will want to play something like Gifts or Pitchlong.  Or you'll find yourself winning with Fish draws and fizziling on the Storm and wish that you had more Fish tools and threats.

Also, as you play more experienced players they'll realize your duality and then your Storm opponents will race you to a win and your non-Storm oppenents will remove your threats and force you to play a Watered down storm deck to beat them.

Ultimately, I settled into a U/B SS type build.  I had played TOA for years and wanted a change.  It was hard moving away from Storm which is why I went through this hybrid deck build transition like you seem to be doing.

Good luck.

[lordmayhem]

Dimir cutpurse - this guy is awful.  He will come down on turn 2 or later off a mox 99% of the time which is really slow for what he does.  You can't ritual him out like a negator.  I would muh rather see a more synergistic larger guy here.  Trinket mage could still be good since it fetches lotus/LED/moxen.

I actually tested Trinket Mage instead of Cutpurse and quite frankly it was god-awful. Cutpurse does something while its in play whilst Trinket Mage does not. I'm open to suggestion of what would make a better replacement, but Trinket Mage is certainly not it.

The lack of off color moxen seems wrong as well since you are running the colorless accelerants, wich means you can use the colorless mana.  5 proxy tournies aren't that often anymore, at least as far as ive seen.

The colourless accelerants produce more than one mana, whereas off colour moxen do not. True, Moxen cost 0 and as such they can ramp up the storm count better, but I cannot see myself cutting lands for them since I need the black mana. Additionally, I'd like to keep this 5 proxy actually.

I also think you are a little land heavy and threat lite.  You should probably include bargain and/or a few draw 7s.  Unlinke most aggroish decks this deck can really benifit from extra cards just as well as the opponet, since it has the extra reach of tendrils.

I actually tried Yawgmoth's Bargain. I cut it for the time being due to its prohibitive mana cost, though its possible that it may see inclusion once again.

A second tendrils might also be justified here since you want to draw it naturally since you are basically using it as a super burn spell.

I had two Tendrils in the BW version, I might try a second Tendrils here as well.


@Negator131

Actually yes, the deck is somewhat based on Forino's list, though when I tried the list out on MWS, I wasn't too pleased with it.

The problems are that as a hybrid deck it gets doubly hurt by Storm hate and by Fish hate.  Also, as a hybrid deck it may address the weaknesses of each pure deck but it lacks the power of pure Storm or Fish.

I beg to differ, the deck has an alternate path to take when facing hate on one front.

Also, as you play more experienced players they'll realize your duality and then your Storm opponents will race you to a win and your non-Storm oppenents will remove your threats and force you to play a Watered down storm deck to beat them.

For Storm opponents I can hold something up my sleeve post sideboard, as for my non-Storm opponents removing my creatures? I really couldn't care. I can and do go for lethal with Tendrils. With 4 Duress and 3 Cabal Therapy, I can ensure that my key spells resolve.

It was hard moving away from Storm which is why I went through this hybrid deck build transition like you seem to be doing.

Interesting. The opposite is the same for me.


Ultimately, I might cut Cutpurses for something else, though what that something would be, I do not know. Perhaps
-3 Cutpurse

+1 Bargain
+1 Tendrils
+1 Something else

[Implacable]

May I suggest Looter il-Kor?  While it is certainly janky, it also is an effective card-filter that pings your opponent every turn.  Obviously, it's not a huge clock, but it might be very good in combination with Yawgmoth's Will, because you don't care what you throw away.

[lordmayhem]

Looter-il Kor is awful.

[Negator131]

Night's Whisper seems like a thousand times better than Looter il-Kor.

Who brings Fish hate against a deck with seven to ten creatures in it? Classical Fish hate like Flametongue Kavu and Lava Dart seem rather awful against Tendrils of Agony. Post-side I think people will have to bring combo hate and just hope for the best, rather than potentially risking dead cards against a deck that can just combo out.

What didn't you like about Forino's list? That deck seems ridiculous.

[Zarathustra]

You say this deck has resiliency and only runs 5 proxies.  Yet, I see no more resiliency in it than in Gifts or Pitch Long.

This deck's main objective is to beat face for a while, THEN Tendrils for the win.  However, that plan is no more stable against Fish than straight Tendrils.  Even Tinker Colossus looks better than that plan and I would rarely go for that against Fish. 

So, my question to you is:  It appears that this deck's main strategy is to attack, then use a 'mini-Tendrils' plan to finish them off.  Since this deck lacks the raw power of Pitch Long and Gifts, how can it power through if it loses it's early beats?

-DShell

[lordmayhem]

Night's Whisper seems like a thousand times better than Looter il-Kor.

It is, but Night's Whisper is

-2 Life
-2 mana
-1 card in hand
+2 cards in hand

So you're basically paying 2 life and 2 mana for +1 CA. That's not too great.

What didn't you like about Forino's list? That deck seems ridiculous.

The lower creature count, the null rods and the 3 Night's Whispers. Granted I have a low creature count as well. And the rods were just useless in the decks i tested against. I might use Forino's list as a reference once more.

Yet, I see no more resiliency in it than in Gifts or Pitch Long.

Oh. Really? Could you support this claim? Resiliency to Null Rod, not caring about gravehate...that seems a tad more resilient than Gifts which rolls over to Withered Wretch and a backed up StP.




Is an awkwardly costed Hyppie/Phid critter worth it? Or should I look into other disruption? Should I add white (hence being BWU) for 3-4 StP?

I think what I'd like to play about with, is:

2x Tendrils
4x Dark Ritual
2x Cabal Ritual
1x Necro
1x Yawgmoth's Bargain
1x Recall
3-4x Brainstorm
4x Tutors
3-4x StP
3x Gator
4x Condidant
3x Other beater, perhaps Withered Wretch for the gravehate
6-7x Duress Effects
Some artifact acceleration

[Nehptis]

Your ideas are sound but I'm speaking to you from experience that they do not execute as well as they look on paper.  Search for some of my old reports and you'll see the challenges that I faced.  I ran a very similar build with Bobs and Wretches.  The idea was to min-beat and then ToA. Or ToA then beat or just go ToA broken.  The problem is that although the 2 plans seem to be synergistic on paper in actuality they compete against each other for resources.

For example, you'll find yourself on your way to a Storm victory when all of a sudden you hit a Fish card that stalls you.  Or your doing well with beats and looking for that min-TOA when all your draw is accell with no business spells.  Meanwhile your opponent is building position and you can do little to stop him with little to no true control.  FOW is sorely missed.

Also, another problem you'll face is the mana base. You have Wastes and very little Basics.  So you'll find yourself at times with the wrong mana or worse no mana because you've been Wasted.  Don't try and rely too much on the concept that cards like Bob / LoA will keep your hand full.  Those cards have huge targets on them and opponents will either have an answer or spend resources to find an answer quick to remove them.  Also, adding a 3rd color will only increase your troubles.

[lordmayhem]

Nehptis, you are correct. As such I am toying around with this list. Also, the idea of using white as well was terrible.

The list:

// Lands
    5  Swamp
    3  Bloodstained Mire
    1  Cabal Pit
    1  Library of Alexandria
    3  Polluted Delta
    1  Strip Mine
    3  Underground Sea

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    3  Phyrexian Negator

// Spells
    1  Necropotence
    1  Yawgmoth's Bargain
    1  Ancestral Recall
    3  Brainstorm
    2  Cabal Ritual
    4  Dark Ritual
    1  Echoing Truth
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Rushing River
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    2  Cabal Therapy
    1  Demonic Tutor
    4  Duress
    1  Imperial Seal
    2  Tendrils of Agony
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire

The merits of this list are less fish creatures, more basics (no Wastes, because a) Wastes aren't THAT useful, Black mana > Colourless), Yawgmoth's Bargain, 2 Tendrils, more Moxen (screw the 5 proxy idea).

[Nehptis]

The list looks better but consider this:

1) Is the LoA really gonna help you?    Your hand won't be at 7 very often to make it impactful.  I'd rather see a basic Island.

2) What's the point of the Cabal Pit?  It's not active till you have Threshold.  Why not use Darkblast to remove Welder and Bob's.  You can always bounce a Mage.

3) Why the Strip?  I'd play another basic.

4) I'd cut the Therapies for a Time Walk or Darkblast and a 4th Brainstorm.  I never see a reson for playing less than 4 Brainstorm.  It's one of the most powerful cards, Especially in a deck with Bob and TOA.

5) Therapies - 99% of the time you are playing the Therapies blind.  Probably naming FOW.  When would you ever want to Flash them back?  I wouldn't want to kill my Bob / Negator. 

[lordmayhem]

1) Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. A basic Island might be good.

2) I don't think I will be cutting Cabal Pit. Its good uncounterably utility. It also kills Mages for B as opposed to 2U or 1U to bounce it.

3) Well I have enough basics. I can't really justify Strip Mine. Possibly cut it for that 4th Brainstorm or a 3rd Cabal Therapy

4) No

5) That's a pretty inaccurate percentage, which has 100% no foundation. Cabal Therapy can remove all sorts of counters. Daze, FoW, Drain. After a Duress, you can discard something juicy, preferably in numbers greater than 1. You would flash it back to protect your comboing off.

[Negator131]

These are the current differences between your list and Forino's 4th Place list:

Mana
-3 Wasteland
-1 Cabal Ritual

+1 Swamp
+2 Underground Sea
+1 Mana Crypt
+1 Mox Emerald
+1 Mox Pearl
+1 Mox Ruby
+1 Mox Sapphire

Tutor/Draw
-1 Demonic Consultation
-2 Grim Tutor
-3 Night's Whisper

+1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
+1 Imperial Seal
+1 Mystical Tutor
+3 Brainstorm

Protection
-3 Null Rod
-2 Cabal Therapy

+1 Rushing River

Basically, you're adding four off-color Moxen and Mana Crypt, solidifying the colored mana in the land base and adding Yawgmoth's Bargain at the expense of greater protection against Control and other combo decks.

Is that helpful?

For starters, I'm not sure I like Yawgmoth's Bargain here, as ridiculous as that may sound. It just seems like it costs too much to be consistently good.

Also, I think playing Mystical Tutor or Imperial Seal over Demonic Consultation in this deck is a mistake. Especially not Mystical over it.

[lordmayhem]

adding Yawgmoth's Bargain at the expense of greater protection against Control and other combo decks.

Er, since when is

-1 Demonic Consultation
-2 Grim Tutor
-3 Night's Whisper

"greater protection"? I may have misunderstood. If you're referencing the cut of Wastelands, then I have this to say. A lot of people play around Wastelands, the number of basics has increased in people's decks, and Wasteland doesn't really do enough to be considered more than a mere annoyance. Coloured mana is more important than annoying your opponent for like a turn.

For starters, I'm not sure I like Yawgmoth's Bargain here, as ridiculous as that may sound.

Yes. It does sound ridiculous, seeing as Bargain draws a lot of cards. A lot of cards = good. Yes I can reach the 6 mana to cast it.

Mystical is really good. Demonic Consultation I'm skeptical about. In relation to this deck, do you seriously think Consult is worth a shot? If so, why? (Seriously)

[Zarathustra]

Oh. Really? Could you support this claim? Resiliency to Null Rod, not caring about gravehate...that seems a tad more resilient than Gifts which rolls over to Withered Wretch and a backed up StP.

This is your thread.  Thus, the burden of proof falls on you, not me.  Again, I ask: since you lack the raw power of other Tendrils based decks, how do you win if you lose your early creature beats?

Null Rod only poses a problem when more disruption and a clock is added to it.  Especially against Gifts.  Graveyard hate is just that: hate.  Experienced Gift can play around it.  Who even plays Wretch in competitive T1?  I know I never see it.

Is an awkwardly costed Hyppie/Phid critter worth it? Or should I look into other disruption? Should I add white (hence being BWU) for 3-4 StP?

I think what I'd like to play about with, is:

2x Tendrils
4x Dark Ritual
2x Cabal Ritual
1x Necro
1x Yawgmoth's Bargain
1x Recall
3-4x Brainstorm
4x Tutors
3-4x StP
3x Gator
4x Condidant
3x Other beater, perhaps Withered Wretch for the gravehate
6-7x Duress Effects
Some artifact acceleration

You have your roles reversed.  That's blunt, but true.  Your creatures have next to no evasion.  And your secondary win condition, Tendrils, is actually the best way to win against Fish.

You're combo.  Adding removal is pointless.  Unless it's bounce.  You can't possibly devote enough space for beatdown (creatures and the removal to deal with blockers) AND space for combo.

-DShell

[oneofchaos]

As long as your casting rushing river ALWAYS pay the kicker against any deck sporting misdirections.  You save yourself from losing tempo, and possibly a last chance to bounce an opponents threat.  Overall It's an innovative deck, and I would need to test to see for myself how good it is.

[Negator131]

Actually, what I had in mind for 'greater protection against Control and other Combo' was the 2x Cabal Therapy you cut, along with the 3x Null Rod for the fast combo matchup.

[lordmayhem]

@Zarathustra : I'd appreciate it if you stop posting in this thread before you turn it into another "Why Gifts Is Indestructible" thread. This thread is not about your magical Gifts deck which is resilient to all sorts of hate but has never faced the hate its resilient to.

Actually, what I had in mind for 'greater protection against Control and other Combo' was the 2x Cabal Therapy you cut, along with the 3x Null Rod for the fast combo matchup.

I cut the Strip Mine for the 3rd Cabal Therapy and I'm pleased with the result. Null Rod is only really so great with pressure and a Strip Mine or a Wasteland. Forino's list was a bit diverse than mine. I think I'd rather play Chalices in the sideboard against combo. Not sure about a sideboard yet.

As long as your casting rushing river ALWAYS pay the kicker against any deck sporting misdirections.  You save yourself from losing tempo, and possibly a last chance to bounce an opponents threat.  Overall It's an innovative deck, and I would need to test to see for myself how good it is.

Why thanks and thank you for the tip! If you do test, I'd like it if you tell me how it goes, via PM.

[Zarathustra]

@Zarathustra : I'd appreciate it if you stop posting in this thread before you turn it into another "Why Gifts Is Indestructible" thread. This thread is not about your magical Gifts deck which is resilient to all sorts of hate but has never faced the hate its resilient to.

Oh please, spare me.  I'm merely trying to find out why this is better than the current iterations of Tendrils-based decks.  It falls on you to prove to us why this deck is better than current combo decks.  There is no reason to attack me because I asked you a question.

-DShell

[lordmayhem]

That question has already been answered in the first post.

[wuaffiliate]

That question has already been answered in the first post.

It really has not, sorry.

[lordmayhem]

Simply put, because it is resilient to combo hate. This is due to the fact that in addition to unloading a lethal Tendrils, this deck can lay down beats. If you lay down combo hate, I can beatdown while I search for a bounce spell. 4 of my beatdown creatures also 'draw' me cards.

That is my answer.

[Zarathustra]

Simply put, because it is resilient to combo hate. This is due to the fact that in addition to unloading a lethal Tendrils, this deck can lay down beats. If you lay down combo hate, I can beatdown while I search for a bounce spell. 4 of my beatdown creatures also 'draw' me cards.

That is my answer.

Thanks for finally explaining this.

Why are you missing a 4th Brainstorm?  I see no reason to cut this and I would cut anything in order to play four.

I would highly consider cutting some lands.  You have 17 lands in a combo deck.  Way too many.  Cutting Strip Mine, Library, and Cabal Pit would be a good idea.  Two produce no colored mana and the other pings you.  Why do you even run Library?  It doesn't fit the combo nature of your deck.

I also see no reason to run Negator in your deck.  Bob is fine, he fits the theme of the deck.  Negator, however is so slow and does nothing but provide a clock.  A really dangerous clock.  Any creature in his way means you have just spent 2B on a 5/5 that just sits there(combo has precious resources).

It seems this deck would really like some Draw-7's.  Since you will run out of steam pretty fast.  Bob will not replenish your hand that fast.

-DShell

[lordmayhem]

Thanks for finally explaining this.

Its the same thing as I said in the first post just differently worded. I'm sorry if it was confusing.

Why are you missing a 4th Brainstorm?  I see no reason to cut this and I would cut anything in order to play four.

That's a good point.

I would highly consider cutting some lands.  You have 17 lands in a combo deck.  Way too many.  Cutting Strip Mine, Library, and Cabal Pit would be a good idea.  Two produce no colored mana and the other pings you.  Why do you even run Library?  It doesn't fit the combo nature of your deck.

I will cut one Swamp for a Brainstorm and see how it turns out. Also Library is randomly broken. Other times its just a colourless land. The number of times its nuts makes it worth it in my opinion.

I also see no reason to run Negator in your deck.  Bob is fine, he fits the theme of the deck.  Negator, however is so slow and does nothing but provide a clock.  A really dangerous clock.  Any creature in his way means you have just spent 2B on a 5/5 that just sits there(combo has precious resources).

A 4-turn clock no less. A creature in his way doesn't scare me. Several creatures and he's holding back. If I see a ton of creature I'm not playing Gator. If I see none, like versus Gifts or Stax, then yeah I'm playing him.

It seems this deck would really like some Draw-7's.  Since you will run out of steam pretty fast.  Bob will not replenish your hand that fast.

-DShell

No I don't think so. Yawgmoth's Bargain, Necro, Ancestral and 4 Bobs fill up my hand pretty good.

[policehq]

RE: LordMayhem's responsibility to prove the idea...

Is a 4th place SCG finish with a similar deck not enough?

RE: Draw-7's.
They are really bad in a deck that wants to put pressure on their opponent in any sort of aggro way. Brainstorm and Night's Whisper are better.

RE: Phyrexian Negator:
I still like Trinket Mage better. Then you're playing U/B bomberman instead of U/B sui.

RE: Cabal Ritual.
I don't think it's a very good choice. You will most definitely have BB with 5 basic swamps, and you can achieve 2colorless easily with some spells resolved. Chain of Vapor and/or Repeal would be better storm accelerants because they are more than +1 storm, and you don't need the mana fixing.

-hq

[Zarathustra]

I will cut one Swamp for a Brainstorm and see how it turns out. Also Library is randomly broken. Other times its just a colourless land. The number of times its nuts makes it worth it in my opinion.

The only time you will have a hand of 7 is when you are going off.  If you're going off, a colored land source is much better than a card that can maybe sometimes win you games.

A 4-turn clock no less. A creature in his way doesn't scare me. Several creatures and he's holding back. If I see a ton of creature I'm not playing Gator. If I see none, like versus Gifts or Stax, then yeah I'm playing him.

Fish is common.  Gifts and Long varients are incredibly broken.  A 4-turn clock with no relevent ability is next to useless.  This is a card that will be dead against 40% or more of a competitive field.  It's better used as a combo piece, imo.

-DShell

[lordmayhem]

The only time you will have a hand of 7 is when you are going off.  If you're going off, a colored land source is much better than a card that can maybe sometimes win you games.

A hand of 7 is not difficult to achieve whether going off or not. I have sufficient coloured mana sources. A good player knows that while going off, land is not what you want to see.

Fish is common.  Gifts and Long varients are incredibly broken.  A 4-turn clock with no relevent ability is next to useless.  This is a card that will be dead against 40% or more of a competitive field.  It's better used as a combo piece, imo.

Gifts is wide open to attack for a good portion of the game. Throwing out phrases such as "combo piece" without defining what that combo piece is, is detrimental to the discussion, imo. The onus is on you to name the ideal replacement.

RE: Phyrexian Negator:
I still like Trinket Mage better. Then you're playing U/B bomberman instead of U/B sui.

Seriously, why would I do this? Why would I go for the Bomberman route? Is there some benefit to this idea which I'm not seeing? If I were to go for the Bomberman route, what would I need to do?

-3 Gator
+3 Trinket Mage?

And then what? What do I cut? What do I throw in? Pithing Needle I suppose? What are your suggestions?

-2 Cabal Ritual
+1 Rebuild
+1 Pithing Needle

?

I'd really appreciate any insight.

RE: Cabal Ritual.
I don't think it's a very good choice. You will most definitely have BB with 5 basic swamps, and you can achieve 2colorless easily with some spells resolved. Chain of Vapor and/or Repeal would be better storm accelerants because they are more than +1 storm, and you don't need the mana fixing.

Cabal Ritual is not really there to achieve BB, its just an accelerant that is really good with threshold, and can cast Necro or Yawg Bargain. Though I could see maindecked Rebuilds being good.

[policehq]

Why would you do that? Because your strategies, as several people have pointed out already, are overlapping each other, and you're losing purpose.

First turn Negator is really not a safe move game 1 (and Negators are maindecked). He will, as he is appropriately named, negate your Tendrils strategy and aggro strategy by cutting off your resources in the early game, and you are losing storm potential by playing Ritual or Mox Mox to get him out early.

Since you're planning on early beats then mini-storm, the best idea is to play utility creatures to attack for a few turns, play some disruption (Tormod's Crypt from Trinket Mage would be a good idea, but then he really doesn't have to have a toolbox), and have cards that replace themselves for a 5-6 storm turn 4-6.

This way, when you have mostly emptied your hand on turn 3 to play Confidant/other beater, at least you have Confidant giving you cards and cards like Repeal to make up for playing Moxen early (on a turn when you are not going off) to play aggro.

-hq