[Deck] Dimir Tendrils

[wuaffiliate]

When i was toying with the original deck (Forino's deck from thr 4th place SCG) i wanted more draw nothing else, the deck runs exceptionally well but it has suboptimal draw (wisper).

Adding more blue mana sources means you have access to the better draw and search, why not try out alot of the options out there? Maybe Impulse, complusive seatch (misd blah blah), or even skeletal scrying.

sorry i dont have enough time to post more on this, i will when i have more time away from work.

[Zarathustra]

A hand of 7 is not difficult to achieve whether going off or not. I have sufficient coloured mana sources. A good player knows that while going off, land is not what you want to see.

If I'm not mistaken you still have 16 lands in your deck.  That's a lot for combo.  I'm not sure how I missed it, but you are lacking a Tolarian Academy.  Which, is a must.  I've also found that 14-15 lands is the right ratio.  Because, as you've said, drawing extra lands is bad.

Gifts is wide open to attack for a good portion of the game. Throwing out phrases such as "combo piece" without defining what that combo piece is, is detrimental to the discussion, imo. The onus is on you to name the ideal replacement.

Gifts goes off turns 3-5, consistently.  Fine, I'll list combo pieces...

Mind's Desire
Chain of Vapor
Rebuild
Hurkyl's Recall
Timetwister
Mana Crypt

-DShell

[sa-x]

I really hope you somehow mise into duress in every opening hand, or else it will be 0-2 dropsville for you every tournament.  This deck just gets absolutely rolled to anything long related. 


Also, please for the love of God add time walk to this deck.  Anytime you play beaters you HAVE to include walk.  You also need to add the 4th brainstorm because in pinches you will need it with 4x bob.  All in all, you're much better off playing BHWC tendrils.

[lordmayhem]

@ policehq : I am currently toying around with 3 Trinket Mages and I have to say that he CAN be very useful. Aside from fetching Lotus, I added a VERY small toolbox of 1x Engineered Explosives, 1x something else.

That something else could be an Aether Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt or Pithing Needle. I don't plan to run crap like Tops.

@ wuaffiliate : I can understand where you're coming from since I did indeed test his list as well. Night's Whisper is pretty crappy. I cannot understand what the hype was all about.

-2 Mana
-2 Life
+1 Card Advantage

However, Skeletal Scrying is pretty awful because its such a mana hog. Casting Skeletal Scrying off Drain mana is one thing, but doing it the hard way is pretty damn bad. I'd much much much much rather cast Necro or Bargain.

@ Zatarustrhra : A build I'm toying around with, which as yet I haven't posted, is running 14 lands. I will try out Tolarian Academy since I am running 11 artifacts : 7 solomoxen, crypt, petal, explosives, something else (probably gonna be Crypt).

I'm already running a Crypt and some bounce btw. Mind's Desire is also a very terrible idea.

@ sa-x : I'm glad you have such a good positive attitude towards deck innovation. Its always great to see that some people don't tell you "go play deck X instead".

I do actually mise into duress-effects in the majority of my opening hands seeing as I run 7 duress-effects, making the odds pretty favorable.

Time Walk is unnecessary. Especially so after tinkering around with Trinket Mage.
I have the 4th brainstorm. I mentioned this at some point, but did not update the first post. Apologies.

[Zarathustra]

Mind's Desire is also a very terrible idea.

How is Desire terrible?  This confuses me...

-DShell

[lordmayhem]

How is Desire terrible?  This confuses me...

Wrong, Desire is not terrible. Desire in this build is terrible. And its pretty obvious why.

[Zarathustra]

Wrong, Desire is not terrible. Desire in this build is terrible. And its pretty obvious why.

You have fetchlands and Black Lotus, along with Lotus Petal and Mox Sapphire.

With Desire being as broken as it is, I see no reason to exclude it.  This is even more reason to play with Tolarian Academy.

-DShell

[Negator131]

Y'know what sounds like some really good innovation? Taking a deck that's resilient enough to combo hate to *run it in the maindeck*, taking out all the cards that make this deck better than faster combo, thereby weakening its weakest matchup, while at the same time making it susceptible to combo hate again by adding more fast artifact mana than you need.

sa-x is right. I really see no reason to run this over Forino's list OR another Storm combo deck.

[brianpk80]

Y'know what sounds like some really good innovation? Taking a deck that's resilient enough to combo hate to *run it in the maindeck*, taking out all the cards that make this deck better than faster combo, thereby weakening its weakest matchup, while at the same time making it susceptible to combo hate again by adding more fast artifact mana than you need.

sa-x is right. I really see no reason to run this over Forino's list OR another Storm combo deck.

What are some specific problems you can identify in the conversion?  I see this as more of a Fish deck with a surprise combo element, not vice versa.  During the early game, in the swarm of Duresses, Confidants, and Negators (which I understand to be back in the list), any smart opponent is going to mischaracterize his/her opponent's strategy as pure Fish and walk right into the storm trap without seeing it coming.  That rogue/surprise factor seems to be it's greatest strength along with its duality of resistances.  There may be alternate ways of optimizing an idea like that, but the idea by itself has merit.  Lordmayhem has done a lot to flesh out the strengths and weaknesses and is still in the process of piecing it together, which is exactly why the evolving decklist is posted here for input. 

-BPK

[Negator131]

This deck is moving away from Forino's list (a much more balanced deck in terms of archetypes) toward Storm combo. I see this through the addition of off-color artifact mana and expensive bombs through the removal of disruption. After all, if you don't draw one of the seven creatures in the deck or the six Duress effects (as of the latest list in this thread) all you are is an inefficient combo deck. Forino's list was good because it balanced itself equally between archetypes. It ran some of the very best mana acceleration of Storm combo (Rituals and on-color Moxen) and some of the very best disruption of U/B Fish (Null Rod, Duress effects, Wasteland), backed up by some draw and solid creatures. This deck removes almost everything that made the deck like Fish in favor of things that make the deck akin to Storm combo. This only weakens the deck against Pitch Long, Grim Long and Gifts. In short, this deck is devolving rather than evolving.

[Zarathustra]

Y'know what sounds like some really good innovation? Taking a deck that's resilient enough to combo hate to *run it in the maindeck*, taking out all the cards that make this deck better than faster combo, thereby weakening its weakest matchup, while at the same time making it susceptible to combo hate again by adding more fast artifact mana than you need.

sa-x is right. I really see no reason to run this over Forino's list OR another Storm combo deck.

So, you mean to say he should run beatdown creatures and then finish off with a mini-Tendrils?

But, realistically, I see that as a bastardization of Fish/Tendrils and I don't know how that's gonna work.  You have some good creatures, but no real good way to force them through.  This will become really annoying in the Fish match-up, you have no removal, short of some bounce.  Tendrils or a fast Tinker is your best win against Fish.

Then on the other side of things, you're much slower than opposing Storm decks.  While you have creatures in your deck, essentially a clock against combo, you have no way to slow them down.  No Stifle, no Wasteland, no Null Rod, no Chalice...

You've now officially weakened yourself against almost half the field.  Yes, Fish and combo can easily make up 40%+ of a field.

-DShell

[Negator131]

Before you get *too* eager to tell me what I'm saying, I like Forino's list a lot. Simple changes to this list I think are what would be most productive, such as things like Brainstorm over Night's Whisper. Adding a ton of relatively useless artifact mana and cutting Null Rod, Wasteland and the third/fourth Cabal Therapy don't make the deck good, they make a working deck concept strictly worse.

[brianpk80]

This deck is moving away from Forino's list (a much more balanced deck in terms of archetypes) toward Storm combo. I see this through the addition of off-color artifact mana and expensive bombs through the removal of disruption. After all, if you don't draw one of the seven creatures in the deck or the six Duress effects (as of the latest list in this thread) all you are is an inefficient combo deck. Forino's list was good because it balanced itself equally between archetypes. It ran some of the very best mana acceleration of Storm combo (Rituals and on-color Moxen) and some of the very best disruption of U/B Fish (Null Rod, Duress effects, Wasteland), backed up by some draw and solid creatures. This deck removes almost everything that made the deck like Fish in favor of things that make the deck akin to Storm combo. This only weakens the deck against Pitch Long, Grim Long and Gifts. In short, this deck is devolving rather than evolving.

This is a good explanation and I agree with most of what you write.  Forino's list might represent the best optimization we have of the idea.  If it appears the changes to Forino's list aren't panning out, we at least have a pretty solid understanding now of why that is.  Some of the original poster's ideas might be more valuable at a later date when the meta fluctuates or some new expansions breathe more life into the Vintage card pool.  Thanks for the response,

-B

[lordmayhem]

I admit it. This was a failed project. Forino's list however, does have its downfalls. Night's Whisper being the primary example. I have nothing further to add.

[Negator131]

I'm not sure that I don't like Night's Whisper in Forino's list either. Simply because, purely from the viewpoint of an aggro-control card AND a combo card, it does both. It's obviously not amazing in pure combo mode, but it helps to build up a critical mass of cards to get the job done one way or the other, IE accumulating Rituals until you hit the Tendrils or disruptive spells until your Negator and Bob tagteam does lethal.

Just another way to look at it.

[v4ino]

As the creator of the deck (FSB) I would like to jump in on the thread and share my thoughs on why I made the decisions I did in the deck list.

The first thing I would suggest is to read my T-report http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=30371.0. Many of the turn 1 plays are counter intuitive and can be tough for someone not familiar with the deck. If you do a little research on SCG you can see how this deck has matured to point it is at now. Please note that this version was Metta'd to fight combo which I expected to see, it's not ideal for an aggro environment which is probably what most of your MWS or apprentice play test will bear you for opponents.

Choices

1 Mox - well I'm glad this deck lends itself to budget players, I think tier 1 budget decks are essential to this format but make no mistake about it - it was a conscious decision to play 1 mox. I own nearly 30 of em.

Waste/Strip - essential. I'm 2-0 vs. Dragon in tournaments (I figured it would be a horrible match up) due to getting their bazaar off-line and tutoring for one when control is established. Also they help with t-hold which is huge for the deck (I've wasted my own land just to get t-hold at times).

Night whispers - I know everyone thinks they are sub-optimal and that they should be replaced by b-storm. I agree that b-storm is a much stronger card however it doesn't have the synergy that n-whispers has in this deck. This is a mono-B deck! Everyone is caught up in the concept of "I need to make my deck more broken" thanks to their SCG premium memberships however I like a more consistent approach (Vromans UbaStax as an example).I can go into more detail about n-whispers if anyone likes.

Gators/N-rod - I mention them in the same breath b/c I threw them in the deck at the same time in response to a combo meta. The reason for the Gators is b/c I want to use my tutors for disruption against decks like Long and dragon where I use my tutors for combo components vs. other style of decks.

LoA - if you think the card isn't significant than you are wrong - you have to tutor for it in a neutral game state at times but it's worth it (bob and LoA does happen as long as your not in a aggro or Stax field).

Not having an Imperial Seal - well I don't want every single card to damage me and don't have enough raw draw to support it. If you fancy a 4th n-whispers the card can be considered but do not cut a Grimm for it.

Not having a Y-Bargin - negator131 said it best "I'm not sure I like Yawgmoth's Bargain here, as ridiculous as that may sound. It just seems like it costs too much to be consistently good." You have to use too many resources to get it out. To be honest, Necro is best in the deck when hard cast (no rit).

Not having a Mystical Tutor - Not a horrible card if you play a basic Island, still this deck wants to be dropping swamps! Consult is just better and the one card that gives the deck unexpected/1st turn kills (sometime yourself but at least someone is dead).

Negator131  - Thanks for giving me credit, you had to squeeze it out of lordmayhem to give me props, I appreciate it. You really seem like you understand the card choices and how to play the deck. If your ever in NYC just E-mail me, I'll buy you a drink and maybe play a few games - you can help me prep for the eventual mirror )

Nehptis - While I'm sure you had difficulties with a "hybrid" this should not be classified as such. It is a Tempo deck that disrupts and builds card advantage which can utilize Tendrils as a kill (yes, I've had first turn kills but they are far and few between). I only view fizzling as a result of bad luck off a draw-7 or desire which happens more often than people think. I fail to see how either Storm or fish fate would cripple the deck (don't both people get to make s-board adjustments). Your 5 questions are really bad and demonstrates your unwilling to thing outside the box.

Zarathustra - the resiliency of this deck is the ability to take away resources from your opponent if the tendril isn’t there. A slow ugly game is fine for this deck where combo has a small window to win and can't defend itself or negate/disrupt it's opponents game plan as well as a FSB build can. Considering how much damage people do to themselves a tendrils at 8 storm isn't to hard to play for. Note: 1 tendrils in a deck like this is wrong, 2 is where the gravy is (you do play too much like a fish deck without the G-tutors and 2nd Tendrils). Note your comments about having too many land for a combo deck is incorrect - all the lands have a job and many replace the need for spells. This not a Combo deck, it just has a strong combo finish.

wuaffiliate

Adding more blue mana sources means you have access to the better draw and search, why not try out alot of the options out there? Maybe Impulse, complusive seatch (misd blah blah), or even skeletal scrying.

I've mentioned why not to run Blue draw, as for Skeletal Scrying - you need T-hold way to much in this deck. May be 1 copy would work (not crazy about the idea of paying more life). I’ll give SS another shot.

sa-x

I really hope you somehow mise into duress in every opening hand, or else it will be 0-2 dropsville for you every tournament.  This deck just gets absolutely rolled to anything long related. 


Also, please for the love of God add time walk to this deck.  Anytime you play beaters you HAVE to include walk.  You also need to add the 4th brainstorm because in pinches you will need it with 4x bob.  All in all, you're much better off playing BHWC tendrils.

Timewalk is wrong for this deck, exposing U to be able to take another turn is useless (maybe in the 10 beater version it would be acceptable however a "combo" piece would round the deck out better). Long doesn't win Turn1 as often as everyone thinks - fish beats it for god's sake!

lordmayhem

I admit it. This was a failed project. Forino's list however, does have its downfalls. Night's Whisper being the primary example. I have nothing further to add.

Saving the best for last.... first of all, you should have mentioned me in your original post. I know everyone want to be the next wiz kid but give props where they are due.... I’m sure you would of mentioned if this was a variant of some deck with a limpdeck in front of it.

Second - I don't know why everyone hates n-whispers so much. First turn d-rit into n-whispers give you a super high chance of seeing 1B disruption if you play 8 pieces, nuff said. B-storm can't do that for you.

Now before I end the post I want to leave everyone with some thoughts, if you can't beat gifts consistently with my build then you are misplaying. I have gotten fat in tournaments beating gifts and have yet to loose a match (and at home with a very good gifts player) - If you play the deck correctly this is a very good match-up. Note, my SB has some gems in it so don't discard it and start with a new 15 without testing it (unless you have an aggro metta which don't show up to big tournaments except Waterburry).

[lordmayhem]

Saving the best for last.... first of all, you should have mentioned me in your original post. I know everyone want to be the next wiz kid but give props where they are due.... I’m sure you would of mentioned if this was a variant of some deck with a limpdeck in front of it.

You weren't mentioned in the first post for the following reasons:

• You are not the first person to come up with the idea of adding Tendrils of Agony in Sui-Black. If you are, then congrats, but I never got the idea from you. For the past year that I have played Sui and posted lists for improvement in forums, Tendrils of Agony was mentioned within the first five posts. The argument is always the same. You have Rituals, Necro, Yawg Will, Demonic, Vampiric... You should play Tendrils. Making a Sui-Tendrils hybrid is not a new idea.
• I started working on this list before I read your report or your list or even heard of you. And I only heard of you because I had developed a similar deck and was referenced to your report (Not in this thread or forum. If you want a link for proof, PM me).
• I have worked on BW Sui for a long enough time, toying around with anything from Decree of Justice to Exalted Angel, seeing as its a fun budget deck. Perhaps you missed the introduction regarding Kataki, Wretch, Stp, Balance and Grunt. This list ran Seal of Cleansing in the sideboard as well.
• Adding Blue was something I tried out for Recall, Brainstorm, Mystical for Yawg Win/Tendrils and Bounce, after which I was directed (on a different forum) to check out your list. I did. I tried Night's Whisper and found that it didn't do enough. I hated it. I tried Null Rod but met a field full of fish. I hated it. I hence made some changes. This is completely irrelevant though because I'm not making use of the original list or any incarnations which were discussed.

Also, I don't appreciate at all how you made it seem as if it had to be squeezed out of me to give you props for a deck which was only partly based on your list. Also, at the mention of your name, I immediately posted the following:

@Negator131

Actually yes, the deck is somewhat based on Forino's list, though when I tried the list out on MWS, I wasn't too pleased with it.

I don't see any squeezing, in fact it looks to me as if I made it clear as soon as the subject was approached, so get the facts straight. If you want props for a failed project which was partly based on your list, then go ahead. Have a blast stroking your ego.

Second - I don't know why everyone hates n-whispers so much. First turn d-rit into n-whispers give you a super high chance of seeing 1B disruption if you play 8 pieces, nuff said. B-storm can't do that for you.

Night's Whisper is 2 mana and 2 life investment for 1 CA. This is the reason I hated Whispers in testing any build. It doesn't do enough. Brainstorm however does plenty more than just draw 2. Its card selection, excellent against opposing Duress, great with Fetchies, an Instant...etc.

[v4ino]

First off I was trying to be civil b/c this is the improvement forum and I like to promote Type 1 any way I can, part of what makes the game great is the fact the we only have each other as wizards has turned their back on us... so without having the big sanctioned tournaments is giving recognition to someone who put up results without netdecking too much to ask.. is it? I'm sure if I was an over-rated magic celebrity that 0-2 drops in every major t1 event there would be respect paid to my ideas.

Making a Sui-Tendrils hybrid is not a new idea.[/li]quote]

In response to this - no one has put together a good list or piloted it so elegantly as I did to bring back interest in something which was considered a newb deck. I seriously doubt all the combo pieces were in place, now all of a sudden everyone’s "original" list has a cabal pit, cabal rits (which is a bad card in sui decks), and LoA to name a few of the choices. Unfortunately most people don't seem to understand the soul of the deck and make some very poor choices in regards to changes and hope to put their flag in the ground. It is not a typpicail sui that threw in a tendrils for the hell of it, each card has a strong purpose. Wouldn't it make of made more sense to ask me an intelligent question now that you have my ear instead of catching and attitude like you’re a gay fashion designer?

In regards to the n-whispers, it's as I said - sometimes synergy is better than power. If played correctly in an appropiate build the card makes sense. In a low CC deck you shouldn't need to ship back cards often.

[lordmayhem]

I find your response to be ridiculously hilarious and a desperate cry for attention. Like a gay fashion designer you say. Hahahaha. I'm sorry but you're the one that made accusations which had absolutely no merit. You yourself just admitted that what you did was bring back interest in something which was considered a newb deck. Hence you just admitted to its previous existence. The difference being that you made a few changes and called it Forino Sui Black. Perhaps my memory is failing me but I saw no props given to previous sui-deck-builders. Irony.

So, you say you're trying to be civil. I'm sure calling people gay fashion designers for responding to your false accusations and insinuations is very civilized in your opinion, however its not in mine. In fact I find you to be exceedingly arrogant. I don't care what you managed to do, there's no excuse for a bad attitude.

And no I don't feel the need or want to ask you anything. Especially considering the attitude you took on deciding to "contribute" to this thread. Besides, I don't deem that you accomplished anything particularly extraordinary enough for you to act as if you are my superior.

What I'm trying to say good sir is: grow up.

[wuaffiliate]

You are not the first person to come up with the idea of adding Tendrils of Agony in Sui-Black.

You should be much more civil this isnt a cock measuring contest.

He is the first to post on the subject of a competative suicide black deck in a long long time WITH TOURNAMENT REULTS TO PROVE IT.

Where are yours?

[lordmayhem]

You should be much more civil this isnt a cock measuring contest.

I'm being as civilized as I can in the face of being so rudely accused and called a "gay fashion designer". I'm ignoring the rest of your post because its obviously fuel for the fire.

[President Skroob]

Gents, you should really steer this thread back on topic so it won't get closed. It's a pity to see discussion get cut off for foolish reasons.


On topic, it has been mentioned that your current list (as far as I can see it) has troubles with combo, since your only early disruption that will hit them is Duress. Do you think that Chalices could be added to complicate their game plan without disturbing your own overly much? I see how it could be fairly dangerous to set a Chalice at 1 for you, but I'm not sure how reliant you are on your artifacts for gathering storm to play a smaller Tendrils. Can you sacrifice your own spells at zero to hurt an opponent more?

[Negator131]

Null Rod did basically what you're describing in Forino's original list. There, Null Rod would be solid in the maindeck (one Mox and the Lotus only), whereas Chalice was solid sideboard material.

[Bram]

Gents, you should really steer this thread back on topic so it won't get closed.

QFT. This thread now has exactly one chance. As far as I'm concerned, it is borderline material even without the flames, so keep it clean, please. Also: more name-calling will result in official warnings. - Bram

[lordmayhem]

Gents, you should really steer this thread back on topic so it won't get closed.

QFT. This thread now has exactly one chance. As far as I'm concerned, it is borderline material even without the flames, so keep it clean, please. Also: more name-calling will result in official warnings. - Bram

I'd actually appreciate it if it WAS closed. I've abandoned the deck and the thread is degenerate.

[Bram]

No argument there.

Closed.