Raiders from Outside of Space

[parallax]

Raiders from Outside of Space

Creature -- Ninja
4/5
You may play ~this~ while it's removed from the game face up by paying rather than its mana cost.

How much of a discount can we give for playing from the RFG zone? The card is only really good with Force of Will. It could also be good with Demonic Consultation, but if you're playing Demonic Consultation, do you really want a vanilla 4/5 creature? Probably not. Are there any other super-easy ways to remove this from the game that would cause a problem?

Raiders from Outside of Space

Creature -- Pirate
4/5
You may play ~this~ while it's removed from the game face up by paying rather than its mana cost.

[Glix]

Right now the card is broken simply because one would add 4 to their sideboards, and just cast them whenever they wanted.  This is aliviated by adding "face up" to the removed from game part.

Seems like an interesting concept, I just feel that its kind of bland as a vanilla creature.  Are their any relavent ablities this could have in addition?

[zeus-online]

No you can't play them out of your sideboard...your sideboard isn't in the RFG zone.

/Zeus

[KandyKid]

I think a good ability would be  : RFG ~this~

Sorta like phasing

[parallax]

"Removed from the game face up" is necessary anyway, but for the record, your sideboard is not removed from the game. It's outside the game.

Choose an instant card you own from outside the game, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. Remove Cunning Wish from the game.

Also, the creature type is obviously meant to be Pirate.

I always try to be as minimal as possible when creating a card that does something new and unique. If anyone can think of a simple ability, that meshes well mechanically and flavorfully with the current one, I'll consider adding it. I like "{cost}: RFG", but it makes the first ability feel more like " : Return this to play." instead of a unique new ability.

[Harlequin]

I'm not sure that you would nessisarily need the "face up" destinction.  Its good bookkeeping to leave it on there, but you can't normally activate abilites of face down cards anyhow.  For example, I can't sac a meedling mage to a face down voidmage prodigy... because while he is face down he does not have the ability.

For an extra ability maybe something like... When ~ is put into the graveyard you may pay [some cost] to remove ~ from the game.

[Norm4eva]

I suppose one could RFG with Tog EOT... kinda goes in the same deck as FoW too...  While it's not really the same, it's very similar to Madness, especially in a deck with 4 FoWn and 4 Tog; 4 Mongrels, 4 Moebas, who's counting.  I suspect Tog has better things to do, however, so it's probably fine?

[Anusien]

How about "When this comes into play, if you played it from the RFG Zone, you may search your hand, library and graveyard for any number of creatures named <this>.  If you do, shuffle your library."  Give it a real amount of combo power to make it appeal to Johnnies even more.

[diopter]

Simple, elegant, with a huge flavor potential. There is a HUGE amount of room to build a deck around the card, and yet it barely takes up any text. I like it.

[jro]

Is it really necessary to make it so cheap to play this from the RFG zone?  Isn't it just as "cool" mechanically if you pay full price?  I think this would become one of those cards that is a nightmare for future designers, because their card that's just supposed to (for instance) remove cards from the top of your library as a cost winds up being an enable for making huge beaters on the cheap.

The super easy way to RFG this now is Foresight / Manipulate Fate.

[parallax]

On the one hand, I like the Manipulate Fate combo, and on the other, I don't want it to be too strong. I like the whole Madness/Quiet Speculation feel that play has going for it. So, how do I have to cost this to make that interaction strong but fair?

[Harlequin]

Food Chain for infinite mana .... but creature only mana.

Lightning Serpent for the win?

[jro]

Food Chain for infinite mana .... but creature only mana.
Lightning Serpent for the win?

Does that work?  Can you use mana from Food Chain to pay an alternate cost for a creature spell?

Either way, I think this points out the reason a card like this is dangerous, because it's just begging for some sort of degenerate combo.  Haakon, for example, has an inherent limit to degeneracy because he costs 2 life when you play him from the yard.  Could some kind of cost like that be added to this?  Maybe removing a card (in play?, in your hand?, from your library?) from the game?  Or maybe milling or discarding (to stop self-comboing with an RFG cost)?

As for the comparison with Quiet Speculation, I think it's important to note that for most flashback cards, the flashback cost is either more than or comparable to the mana cost.  And with Madness, the spells have to be played "right away" when you discard them, so that somewhat compensates for their lower cost.

[Darkenslight]

I think RFG'ing the top 2 cards of your deck in addition to the current APC might be sensible, sort of like this:

You may remove the top two cards of your library and pay to play this from your removed from game zone.

[parallax]

I don't believe the combo with Food Chain is that degenerate. It's a two card combo that requires a third piece to win the game. There aren't that many cards that can repeatedly remove this from the game, and Food Chain is probably the only one who can do so at a profit. When Haakon is destroyed, he's put back in the graveyard, ready to be used again. If this is destroyed, it's put into the graveyard, and you need another card to get him back. The only difference is this guy can bounce back from Swords to Plowshares and other RFG effects.

I think Manipulate Fate is very similar to Quiet Speculation for Roar of the Wurm. The only difference is that this combo gives you 4/5s for three mana each and Roars are 6/6s for four, and Roar requires green mana. However, Manipulate Fate can't fetch Deep Analysis, which is often a better play. With madness, you drop a Wild Mongrel on turn two, then Arrogant Wurm on turn three. The Manipulate Fate play is rather similar, except: Manipulate Fate isn't the best two-drop in the game, but it tutors for your Raiders, and it can't be removed from play.

[asi]

This card is obviosly a green card and should never be blue, just because of Force and the cute ninja/ninja flavor. It's like Gigapede or Genesis or a dredge creature; it should be green, and I'd prefer it as a green card. How about


Creature- Beast
4/4
Trample.
You may play this card from the "removed-from-the-game"-zone.

(Phyrexian Furnace for the win!)

[jro]

I don't believe the combo with Food Chain is that degenerate.

I agree, but my point is more that it's the kind of card that lends itself to degeneracy, not that any particular combo was degenerate.  It's the kind of card that can wind up restricting design space in the future.

However, Manipulate Fate can't fetch Deep Analysis, which is often a better play.

So long as a draw spell that can be played from the RFG zone is never printed.

With madness, you drop a Wild Mongrel on turn two, then Arrogant Wurm on turn three. The Manipulate Fate play is rather similar, except: Manipulate Fate isn't the best two-drop in the game, but it tutors for your Raiders, and it can't be removed from play.

This card makes Manipulate Fate an on-color cantrip triple-tutor for 2.  Not even Wild Mongrel is that good.  If you go turn 2 Mongrel, turn 3 Wurm, you've spent two card to put two creatures in play.  If I go turn 2 Manipulate Fate, turn 3 Pirates, turn 4 Pirates, turn 5 Pirates, I've spent 0 cards to put three creatures in play.

[Harlequin]

what about adding something like:

"Whenever you play a spell from a zone other than your hand, Remove ~this~ from the game."

It doesn't stop foodchain.  But it makes it less broken and restrict access to other broken cards (will, Future sight, Minds desire, suspend, madness, flashback).  Also it means you can essentially only have 1 "cheap" one in play

[parallax]

The only way this restricts design space is that we can't make any repeatable RFG effects that are more powerful than Food Chain. In fact, the only card you couldn't make after this is printed is Food Chain. Any other combo with this guy is going to be too mana intensive to be degenerate.

[orgcandman]

While I like the idea, I'm not sure I like the aggressive cost in blue. Mostly because it can really mess up legacy (force and misd now don't cause card disadvantage?! I'm IN!). Perhaps if it were green, the aggressive cost would be more appropriate?

[Norm4eva]

Food Chain, Glimpse of Nature, OuterSpaceNinja and Maga, Traitor to Mortals FTW.  Sure it's a 4-card combo, but you protect your combo with FoWn and MisD without losing combo pieces.  BORKENSTOCKS
I'd like to like this card but... it just feels too much like a blue pitch-spell enabler.  It's a fine concept, but you can't just give Blue a 4/5 beater for 2U - you can't even really StP it fer God's sake.  This could arguably be Green or maaaybe White since they're all up in the RFG zone effects, but this can't be Blue.

[Anusien]

What if we make it a 3/5?  A 4/5 seems pretty good for a 5 mana blue creature, but a 3/5 would make it weaker but still get you something fair for the cost?  Or is the issue the ability at all, not it's mana ratio?

[Norm4eva]

It's an issue of function and size, IMO.  Even a suggested 3/5 for 2U is way outside Blue's acceptable curve for creatures with no drawbacks.  It also just happens to have stupid synergy with a lot of Blue cards that already see play; Force, MisD, Tog (Teeth can remove this and another card AEOT for a -1 loss in its own potential power only to put 4 on the board for a total of +3.  AND it pitches to FoWn.  Quirion Dryad wishes it were this awesome.)... on the fringes there's stuff like Skeletal Scrying, Flash of Insight, that Coldsnap pitch card that steals guys or whatever, and they all work pretty well in the same deck. 
What else can a 4/5 for 2U be besides an undercosted beater?  And why is that Blue?

[parallax]

It's blue becuase blue interacts the most with the removed-from-game zone. The "from outside of space" just feels like a blue ability to me. Plus, pitching to Force of Will is kind of the point.

It's not a creature with no drawback. There is an incidental cost in removing from the game. And a 3/5 for wouldn't even make a splash in Vintage without a drawback. And Legacy also has better blue beatsticks. Sea Drake and Serendib Efreet, for example. I don't think the three card comboes with Food Chain would see play in either of those formats, either.

I don't mind tweaking the stats or the costs, but I do intend for it to be very efficient when played from RFG.

A non-evasive beatstick is not the sort of thing many decks that RFG cards are looking for. It doesn't do much in Tog if you've already got a Tog out.