[Deck/Primer] Dread Return Ichorid - aka Cookie Monster

[meadbert]

The prior knowledge thing is a big deal.  I basically never expect Leyline so my Leyline defense could only help in a game 3.

For now I am content to roll over and die to Leyline.

I was doing what I always do I mulling to 1 Bazzar.

I experience > 70% game 1 wins.

[policehq]

I think I'm going to start playing Wax/Wane instead of Emerald Charm so I'll have something to sideboard against Dragon. Am I correct in interpreting this errata so that Emerald Charm cannot target Animate enchantments:

Choose one - Untap target permanent; or destroy target non-Aura enchantment; or target creature loses flying until end of turn.

Thanks,
-hq

[Komatteru]

You can target the animate enchantments with Emerald Charm before they become attached to the creature in question--that is, with the CIPT trigger of Animate Dead/Necromancy on the stack.  Animate Dead and Necromancy are not Auras when cast, and come into play as global enchantments (to use the old term).  Then, you choose a target.  If the triggered ability resolves, then the animate spell becomes an Aura, and then it is no longer a legal target for Emerald Charm.

[TurbulentDirge]

One card I have been running with excellent results is Loxodon Gatekeeper. He does everything Maze does, except he can be Dread Returned into play. I have taken to maindecking 2-3 of him (The number fluctuates) and 3 Dread Return. Against Bomberman he is awesome, conveniently out of range of the spellbomb and a solution to all their answers. They can potentially Explosives him away, but even then he can come right on back.
Coupled with maindeck Ancient Grudge, this could be an excellent answers to a lot of serious problems the manaless version has.

Admittedly he really doesn't deal with the Leyline problem, but test him; you will find that he deals excellently with all the problems Root Maze is supposed to.

-DL

[Outlaw]

One card I have been running with excellent results is Loxodon Gatekeeper. He does everything Maze does, except he can be Dread Returned into play. I have taken to maindecking 2-3 of him (The number fluctuates) and 3 Dread Return. Against Bomberman he is awesome, conveniently out of range of the spellbomb and a solution to all their answers. They can potentially Explosives him away, but even then he can come right on back.
Coupled with maindeck Ancient Grudge, this could be an excellent answers to a lot of serious problems the manaless version has.

Admittedly he really doesn't deal with the Leyline problem, but test him; you will find that he deals excellently with all the problems Root Maze is supposed to.

-DL

Maze costs G though... I dont understand why you would sac 3 creatures to dread return something that doesnt immediately win the game?

[InfinityCircuit]

I agree with Outlaw.  It seems that the Gatekeeper will come down too slow to actually do anything that matters.  However, I do believe that there may be room for Dread Returning utility creatures.  I've been testing Angel of Despair many times and it has a lot of advantages--namely, it's big enough to catch a Dragon Breath, it stops Moat, it stops Platz, and it stops Ensnaring bridge.  It's also a black creature and a warm body for Sutured Ghoul.  Does anyone think this has merit?

[TurbulentDirge]

One card I have been running with excellent results is Loxodon Gatekeeper. He does everything Maze does, except he can be Dread Returned into play. I have taken to maindecking 2-3 of him (The number fluctuates) and 3 Dread Return. Against Bomberman he is awesome, conveniently out of range of the spellbomb and a solution to all their answers. They can potentially Explosives him away, but even then he can come right on back.
Coupled with maindeck Ancient Grudge, this could be an excellent answers to a lot of serious problems the manaless version has.

Admittedly he really doesn't deal with the Leyline problem, but test him; you will find that he deals excellently with all the problems Root Maze is supposed to.

-DL

Maze costs G though... I dont understand why you would sac 3 creatures to dread return something that doesnt immediately win the game?

The problem a lot of people have, especially against Stax, is that if on the play, you get to use Bazaar once, MAYBE twice if you are lucky, and then it is wastelanded or strip mined. Even if it is not, Ichorid does not draw that many cards from its deck; it likes to dredge. Running Loxodon is a way to cheat the dredging of cards. There is no way to recur Root Maze or get it into play without getting it in your opening hand alongside the Bazaar (the probability of which is not too high). However, running Loxodon is highly condusive to the deck's style of play (read: Dredging). Does it win the game? No, but after an attack with 2 Ichorids and Shadow on turn 3, getting him out almost assures a win next turn, for the opponent will be unable to use Crypt or other nastiness to stop your attack.

Loxodon does not directly win. He does the same thing as Maze (prevents the opponent from winning), albiet in a way that is more streamlined with the decks plan.

-DL

[Discozombie]

Verdant Force could be an option against Stax, has good synergy with dread return, cabal therapy, and it is a big body to feed the ghoul.

[nataz]

Just fooling around with some lists, the Mono-Black Aggro transformational SB does have some interesting g2's. Has anyone else actually tested this? You can SB in up to 10 1cc 2/2 creatures, AND still leave in the basic aggro ichorid shell. It bypasses gy hate while not really giving control anything huge to counter.

[cssamerican]

One card I have been running with excellent results is Loxodon Gatekeeper. He does everything Maze does, except he can be Dread Returned into play. I have taken to maindecking 2-3 of him (The number fluctuates) and 3 Dread Return. Against Bomberman he is awesome, conveniently out of range of the spellbomb and a solution to all their answers. They can potentially Explosives him away, but even then he can come right on back.
Coupled with maindeck Ancient Grudge, this could be an excellent answers to a lot of serious problems the manaless version has.

Admittedly he really doesn't deal with the Leyline problem, but test him; you will find that he deals excellently with all the problems Root Maze is supposed to.

-DL

Maze costs G though... I dont understand why you would sac 3 creatures to dread return something that doesnt immediately win the game?

The problem a lot of people have, especially against Stax, is that if on the play, you get to use Bazaar once, MAYBE twice if you are lucky, and then it is wastelanded or strip mined. Even if it is not, Ichorid does not draw that many cards from its deck; it likes to dredge. Running Loxodon is a way to cheat the dredging of cards. There is no way to recur Root Maze or get it into play without getting it in your opening hand alongside the Bazaar (the probability of which is not too high). However, running Loxodon is highly condusive to the deck's style of play (read: Dredging). Does it win the game? No, but after an attack with 2 Ichorids and Shadow on turn 3, getting him out almost assures a win next turn, for the opponent will be unable to use Crypt or other nastiness to stop your attack.

Loxodon does not directly win. He does the same thing as Maze (prevents the opponent from winning), albiet in a way that is more streamlined with the decks plan.

-DL

So, if I understand what you are saying…You are saying Loxodon Gatekeeper is good when you in a position to flashback Dread Return as a stall tactic in order to ensure your opponent can not win on their next turn? If that is the case I agree that there are times where it will be beneficial, but I am not sure if those times will come up with enough frequency to matter. If you have dredged enough cars to hit your Dread Returns and you have enough creatures in play to pay the flashback cost it is highly likely you could return a creature that would literally win the game right now. If that weren’t the case then you opponent would have to be in the position to win or crypt your grave the very next turn for it to be worthwhile. That is very specific timing for it to be relevant, Bomberman might be the exception.

I use Root Maze to help to slow really fast decks down like the Long variants in addition to protection versus decks like Bomberman. I can’t see Loxodon Gatekeeper really helping too much in those matches.

Verdant Force could be an option against Stax, has good synergy with dread return, cabal therapy, and it is a big body to feed the ghoul.

I have never had trouble with the Smokestack part of Stax, so I really don’t see Verdant Force being any better than any other big creature.

Just fooling around with some lists, the Mono-Black Aggro transformational SB does have some interesting g2's. Has anyone else actually tested this? You can SB in up to 10 1cc 2/2 creatures, AND still leave in the basic aggro ichorid shell. It bypasses gy hate while not really giving control anything huge to counter.

My only concern with that approach is you will have a hard time versus decks that have blockers. I haven't really tried it, so I would be intrested in how it works against things with craeture bigger than 2/2. Artifact Aggro, Bomberman, and Fish have a few cards that will dominate a 2/2 body like Juggernaught, Salvager, and Grunt, and things like Goblins could likely still out race you. However, I think that it is worth exploring just because the whole concept of not depending on the graveyard game two is that strong. I have been furthering my earlier idea of switching to a mask deck to avoid hate, and this is pretty much what I came up with.
Mono-Black Ichorid
Lands
7 Swamp
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Ashen Ghoul
Enchantments
4 Leyline of the Void
Spells
2 Darkblast
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Unmask
Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Serum Powder
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
Sideboard
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation
2 Duress
4 Illusionary Mask
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

The idea is pretty simple and it does have some serious advantages to it. You play a Dreadless version of Ichorid whose manabase consist of basic swamps. The stronger mana base makes returning Ghouls and casting one-mana spells much more consistent. This new mana base allows you much greater resiliency to wasteland than previous version. So, while it might be a little slower without Dread Return it has the ability to constantly return Ghouls to play.

Originally the addition of Spoils of the Vault was to have enough room to fully convert to a good mask build for game two, but then I noticed how good it was in Ichorid. It can instantly become Golgari Grave-Troll, Bazaar of Baghdad, or anything else you need at the moment, and as a little bonus it has some nice synergy with Serum Powder due to the better success rate of hitting that four of in a smaller deck.

And of course transforming the deck into a mask deck that could careless about its own graveyard is super sweet when you opponent boards in a ton of graveyard hate.

The basic idea behind the plan
-3 Ashen Ghoul
-4 Golgari Grave-Troll
-4 Ichorid
-4 Stinkweed Imp
+4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
+4 Dark Ritual
+1 Demonic Consultation
+2 Duress
+4 Illusionary Mask

[Discozombie]

nataz: I think the mono black version with a transformational sideboard has a lot of strength to it.  I addition to giving you the strength of basic lands it also allows you to bypass their hate with out weakening the deck.  I have not tested it out at a tourney yet, I have been flopping it on apprentice.  I am a nursing student and have no real free time right now, but winter holiday starts soon so I will have a month off to try things in real life possibly.

cssamerican: I really like the idea of the mask transformation too.  I was also thinking of something simple like meekstone in the side board for a monoblack weenie version, has some fun tech against DSC and some other fatness, Grunts only swing once, plus that yould just be sexy as hell dropping out a meekstone.  !?!?!?!?!  

I like the monoblackness  I would tweak it like this

Mono-Black Ichorid

Lands

8 Swamp
4 Petrified Field
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

Creatures

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ashen Ghoul

Enchantments

4 Leyline of the Void

Spells

2 Darkblast
2 Spoils of the Vault
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress (Or blackmail you can only look at 3 but you can make them discard anything including lands)

Artifacts

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Serum Powder

Sideboard

4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation
2 Spoils of the Vault
4 Illusionary Mask
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

the duress slot could go back to being unmask, but I think with the extra mana duress might have a little more use.  Don't know yet the jury is still out.  and I just hate not running a full 4 ghouls, I just love those guys, I used to run them in old Entomb/Exhume reanimator with zombie infestations and so many times those guys just won the game for me.  I really like the mask switch board, props for that one!  I once ran a parfait deck that had a transformational sideboard to "White Mask" planned for it.  I never had the cards but that would have been sexy...

[meadbert]

The mono black version looks very interesting to me.

I can see how Spoils is good, but in our current Tendrils infested Meta I wonder if the life loss might be too painful.  Still, just spoilsing for Chalice on the play is pretty good.

Imagine this start:
Turn 1:  Swamp, Spoils for Chalice, Chalice
Turn 2: Putrid Imp, Discard Grave-Troll, Bazaar dredgeing a lot.
Turn 3:  Bring out some creatures.  Dredge some more.  Triple Therapy.

In the board I would probably play Portal over Ritual just so you can get mana out of Bazaar if you need to.

One issue could be that your opponent will board in Pithing Needle, so if they realize that you are playing Masknaught in time they can Needle Mask and then you are in some trouble.

[President Skroob]

Jerry Yang played a mono-black version with a transformational sideboard at Starcity. I don't see it mentioned here, so I thought I would toss it out for the record.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=20169

[Outlaw]

Jerry Yang played a mono-black version with a transformational sideboard at Starcity. I don't see it mentioned here, so I thought I would toss it out for the record.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=20169

Thats lacking serious dredge cards and I think confidant is extremely out of place there.

[TopSecret]

     Nataz,
have you tried Circling Vultures in the conversional sideboard to beatdown?
They seem pretty sick being a 3/2 flyer for 'B',
with a disadvantage that is minimized by the deck's dredge and discard abilities.

[President Skroob]

Jerry Yang played a mono-black version with a transformational sideboard at Starcity. I don't see it mentioned here, so I thought I would toss it out for the record.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=20169

Thats lacking serious dredge cards and I think confidant is extremely out of place there.

I didn't say I don't think the deck is flawed, but it's there to be looked at as something that was tried. 

[meadbert]

I spoke to Jerry about his deck day two and he did not seem to be too impressed with it.  Maybe he has some new ideas since.

[cssamerican]

I can see how Spoils is good, but in our current Tendrils infested Meta I wonder if the life loss might be too painful.  Still, just spoilsing for Chalice on the play is pretty good.

I really don't think it is that big of a deal. If your spoiling for disruption then your reducing their chances of getting storm. So, it is sort of a calculated risk play. If your spoiling for your engine it is likely the loss of turns until your engine would have came online is just as or more devastating than the life loss caused by spoiling.

In the board I would probably play Portal over Ritual just so you can get mana out of Bazaar if you need to.

One issue could be that your opponent will board in Pithing Needle, so if they realize that you are playing Masknaught in time they can Needle Mask and then you are in some trouble.

Pithing Needle is a potential problem. One reason I think the Rituals are required is because it allows you to play the Mask and the Naught before you opponent can play a needle and it allows you to do it turn one. This way they have to be sure of what you are doing in order to guess right and still they might not even get the opportunity to play a card before you have a 12/12 in play. Another way around this problem is to keep part of the dredge engine in so if they shut one down you have the other, or maybe running  a couple of bayous and a couple of fetchlands, or the portals so you can splash for oxidize or Ancient Grudge. I haven't run into this problem yet, probably because of the suprise factor; however, if this became common place you might need a real solution.

[meadbert]

So it turns out that Spoils is a no go in game 1.  I ran some numbers.  If you spoils turn 1 for a 4 of then you still have a 14% chance of killing yourself.  Pretty much autolosing do to mulling to 0 is bad when it happens 6% of the time.  To kill yourself with Spoils 14% of the time is just totally unacceptable.

Maybe my 14% is wrong.  I did:

49/53 *48/52 *47/51* ...* 30/34 = (49!/29!)/(53!/33!) = 49!*33! / 29! / 33! = ~0.14

In game 2 where the odds are already stacked against me then I do not mind spoilsing for Chalice to protect me from that Tormod's Crypt that I am about to run into.

Either way Gamble seems to just be better.  With Gamble you have 16% chance of discarding the card you searched for.  This is way better than having a 14% chance of autolosing.

I think it would be better to run 4xGamble to get Bazaars and Chalice and then maybe some Gemstone Caverns out of the board.  Gemstone Caverns allows for severe brokenness when on the draw.

[cssamerican]

I think your math is right, but your concept of its use is wrong. You have to realize you are still going to mulligan down till you hit a Bazaar. That means Serum Powder could shorten your deck. It also means that you are going to play Bazaar as your first land drop. This means you are going to activate Bazaar at least once if not twice before you even have an opportunity to play Spoils of the Vault. In that time it is probable that your library will be significantly smaller than fifty-two cards. You could be looking at a thirty or less cards in your library, in which case you can calculate your odds from there on the fly and decide if the risk you are about to take is worth it or not. For example, if you still have four Chalices in your library of thirty then the risk is extremely minimal. At that point you can decide if taking that small risk is worth it. Remember you don’t have to cast if you don’t think the risk/reward ratio is worth it.

The problem with Gamble is by the time you cast it you hand has been reduced in size, you are playing a deck that loves to mulligan and discard cards. Because of this in many cases your success rate will only be at best thirty-three percent. To top it all off to use Gamble you will have to abandon the mono-black mana base, which partially defeats the purpose of the transformational sideboard.

[nataz]

Quick and Dirty mini report-Myraid, Dec 8
Save the Cheerleader, Save the World

posted in the results section here.

Final Standings 3-3

Final notes:

I think the deck is better then my record suggest. Playing 6 rounds against 3 salvagers and planar void MD.deck can't be normal. I'm pretty much of the opinion that this is a classic glass jaw deck; meaning over the short term YMMV. However, depending on how the meta-game holds up, over time I think you could do well. It also means that every once-in-a-while you will hit two almost unwinable matches (or one nightmare match and one mulligan self destruct) and be unceremoniously jettisoned from contention, making this deck anything but consistent in anything above 5 rounds (playing this at Waterbury = CRAZY). 

[Flux]

The only way Vroman and I found to beat leyline is to devote all 15 slots in the sideboard to doing so. 

Something like:

4 emerald charm
4 abbolish
4 savannah
3 temple garden

But after being undefeated at Chicago this pasts weekend, that is until the semi-finals, I say don't fear leyline at all.  Out of the forty-plus people that were in the tournamnet, I think I was the only one playing it.

Here is the deck I ran:

Jim's list
4 bazaar
4 petrified field
4 ichorid
4 nether shadow
4 dread return
4 grave troll
4 stinkweed
4 golgari thug
4 shambling shell
4 serum powder
4 chalice
4 leyline
4 cabal therapy
4 unmask
1 sundering titan
1 symbiotic wurm
1 angel of despair
1 riftsone portal
side
3 riftstone
4 ancient grudge
4 ray of revelation
4 pithing needle

The only thing that I would change, is angel of despair for rifstone portal.

This deck scoops to leyline, but can beat everything else in the metagame, including tormod's crypt, wateland, and jotun grunts.

Flux 

[InfinityCircuit]

In his post Vroman mentioned that he thought Angel of Despair should be replaced by a Mishra's Factory, not a second Riftstone Portal.  What makes you desire the Portal instead of the Factory?

I like the list a lot.  I think that running Shambling Shells over Gigapedes is a good call.  It provides more black cards to feed Ichorid and also helps when you mull low to a Bazaar.  I think something people ignore a lot with this deck is the fact that just getting a bazaar is meaningless if you don't have a dredge card.  Adding four Shells alleviates this more than Gigapedes and also get around Wasteland.

[policehq]

Gigapedes + Petrified Fields make the deck pretty much Wasteland-proof. I played 5 games today against Stax, and during all of them my Bazaar was Wastelanded after one activation. I was still able to win turn 3 during each of them (these were all pre-sideboard).

I'm still not utterly amazed with Leyline of the Void, so my Gigapedes (or Shambling Shells, depending on your point of view) are replacing them.

Here's my current non-Portal/Grudge list:
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Petrified Field
1 Riftstone Portal

4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow

4 Serum Powder

4 Gigapede
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Serum Powder

4 Chalice of the Void

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask

3 Dread Return
2 Sutured Ghoul
2 Dragon Breath

The Riftstone Portal in place of Mishra's Factory/Strip Mine is used to get around Sphere of Resistance, and again, I have to say, getting the occasional Chalice@1 (Sorry Harlequin).

-hq

[Flux]

In his post Vroman mentioned that he thought Angel of Despair should be replaced by a Mishra's Factory, not a second Riftstone Portal.  What makes you desire the Portal instead of the Factory?

I like the list a lot.  I think that running Shambling Shells over Gigapedes is a good call.  It provides more black cards to feed Ichorid and also helps when you mull low to a Bazaar.  I think something people ignore a lot with this deck is the fact that just getting a bazaar is meaningless if you don't have a dredge card.  Adding four Shells alleviates this more than Gigapedes and also get around Wasteland.

We decided to change the sideboard around, and boarding the portals in was a pain, so I put them main.  I also cut a dread return for the third portal because in my opinion, three dread return was plenty, so now my sideboard looks like:

4 ancient grudge
4 pithing needle
3 ray of revalation
4 sickening shoal (kills grunts mainly, but also hits welder and confidant easily)

In regards to leyline main, in my opinion, if a deck can support it main, then it should play it, it hurts so many decks.

I like shambling shell for two reasons.  One he dredges, which is key in this deck, and like you say it does get around wasteland, but the other reason I love him, is because he is black.  I found that in some games, and in certain matchups, I needed a few more creatures to pitch to ichorid.  I like gigapede though, and if leyline wastnt so damn broken, he would be in the deck for sure.

Flux

[TurbulentDirge]

Jim's list
4 bazaar
4 petrified field
4 ichorid
4 nether shadow
4 dread return
4 grave troll
4 stinkweed
4 golgari thug
4 shambling shell
4 serum powder
4 chalice
4 leyline
4 cabal therapy
4 unmask
1 sundering titan
1 symbiotic wurm
1 angel of despair
1 riftsone portal
side
3 riftstone
4 ancient grudge
4 ray of revelation
4 pithing needle

I am playing essentially the same decklist, but with a few minor modifactions that I found are just plain better.
-1 Titan, -1 Wurm, +1 Ghoul, +1 Breath: I am still of the opinion that Ghoul is far stronger than the other possible creatures in this deck (for the reanimator slot that is). His insane brokenness is truly realized when you get the second turn win that circumvents Force of Will (Therapy before Return). Titan himself has not been outstanding, and in the matchups where he was relevant, I would always have preferred Ghoul in my testing to charge into play. The same goes for Wurm, where I, similar to Meadbert's results, found that Ghoul or GGT was the better target in the scenario. The Ghoul addition obviously lends itself to...
-4 Shell, +4 Gigapede: Asides from synergy with Ghoul, the ability to disacrd not only GGT and dredgers, but also Dread Return and the ever important Therapy are invaluable when Wasteland/Mine/Needle ruin your party early in the game without a chance to react. Gigapede can save the day in this scenario. In a pinch, he is a fine Dread Return target (especially against UW Fish), due to his inablity to pick up the plowshare and go farm like the Ghoul would if hit by the white instant.
Finally, the Dread Return route (+2 Return) is still in with my build. FoW is rarely an issue, because this deck rarely has just 3 creatures in play. It either has less or more (testing has shown this to be the case) due to the probability involved with dredging large amounts of cards.

Have you ever found that having the additional 4 dredgers in the form of Shell has been particularly heplful? I rarely have a problem with not having enough Ichorid food, although Shell does provide additonal (if not particularly needed) ammo to a game 2/3 Shoal. Regardless, what other arguments do you have in favor of this creature?

-DL

[policehq]

Have you ever found that having the additional 4 dredgers in the form of Shell has been particularly heplful? I rarely have a problem with not having enough Ichorid food, although Shell does provide additonal (if not particularly needed) ammo to a game 2/3 Shoal. Regardless, what other arguments do you have in favor of this creature?

-DL

Having black creatures in the graveyard for Ichorid does happen frequently enough without it, but using it allows you to play Unmask more often and return Ichorid more often without having to debate over whether it is the stronger play or if you need to keep Stinkweed Imp/Golgari Thug/Sutured Ghoul/etc. in your hand or graveyard.

Also, the more black creatures and dredge creatures you have in your deck, the better you can possibly operate after a Withered Wretch, Tormod's Crypt, Jotun Grunt, etc.

-hq

[InfinityCircuit]

How can you ever accomplish a turn 2 win even with Sutured Ghoul?  When you play with only Bazaar as a discard outlet is it really possible to get three creatures in your graveyard at the beginning of your upkeep, reanimate them all, and also have the Ghoul, Breath, and Dredger to keep going?

[meadbert]

I once won on turn 2.  Thank you Hymn To Tourach.

[policehq]

Yeah, I've been Brain Freezed for non-lethal before against someone on MWS, but that's really irrelevant. I don't remember anyone making the turn 2 claim.

The Sutured Ghoul decks win games against non-Force of Will/Mana Drain/Daze/etc. turn 3 75% of the time, and on the same turn against those decks, can resolve 3 Cabal Therapies, which might as well be game over.

-hq