[deck] landstill, please help fix this deck

[scribe888]

i'm currenlt piloting landstill and i'm having problems with fish. i've an upcoming tourney and i need help fixing my deck.

my understanding of fish is that it's a deck built to hose other decks. it uses little annoying critters plus counters [if it has blue], discard [if it has black] to win.

given that this kind of deck is built to beat other decks, how can other decks beat this anti-you deck??

my meta is 20% powered, no proxies. mostly fish(ug uw wb)/fcg/sui black/oath. then the powered people play gifts/cs/doomsday/meandredge/dragon/stax

what would be the most optimal deck for me to play in this meta? since most people play fish and eventually the top tables are filled with the powered players.

i am currently deciding to run landstill, here's the decklist.

4 tundra
3 flooded strands
3 polluted deltas
3 islands
2 plains
4 wastelands
1 strip mine
4 mishra's factory
2 faerie conclave

4 force of will
4 mana drain
2 misdirection
4 standstill
3 brainstorm
1 enlightened tutor [possibly tutors sideboard tech]
1 balance
4 swords to plowshares
2 nevinrryal's disk
3 crucible of worlds
2 decree of justice
2 chain of vapor
2 stifle

sb
2 tormod's crypt
2 pithing needle/null rod
1 nev's disk
2 seal of cleansing
2 energy flux
1 chain of vapor
3 blue elemental blast
2 meddling mage

also random question, what do i take out for time walk?

thanks for you help, hope i posted in the right place.
if you think landstill is a poor deck choice please suggest a better one, just not oath [i have issues].

[wuaffiliate]

If you are having problems with fish i suggest running Ur with lighting bolts and fire/ice or whatever tech you can find that has been released since landstill was last a competative deck.

[technogeek5000]

Simple take out decree of justice

A great vintage landstill win condition is Tinker/darksteel colossus

If proxies are allowed you should definately use this... just proxy some moxes and run maindeck chalice

If you continue to run no 0 cast artifacts definately run chalice

You might want to splash green, that way you can get fastbond and regrowth

Mystical tutor and Windfall are great cards for this kind-o-deck

If you want to see a different approach to landstill, contact me for a game of MWS

Landstill is unexpected and if you build it right it can pack a punch, keep it.

Tng5000,

[scribe888]

it's definitely no proxies. so i'm pretty sure i can't run the tinker colossus route. cotv i'll try and give it a whirl. i'll have to dl mws first, thanks for you help though.

[wuaffiliate]

Simple take out decree of justice

A great vintage landstill win condition is Tinker/darksteel colossus

If proxies are allowed you should definately use this... just proxy some moxes and run maindeck chalice

If you continue to run no 0 cast artifacts definately run chalice

You might want to splash green, that way you can get fastbond and regrowth

Mystical tutor and Windfall are great cards for this kind-o-deck

If you want to see a different approach to landstill, contact me for a game of MWS

Landstill is unexpected and if you build it right it can pack a punch, keep it.

Tng5000,

windfall has NO place in landstill

[technogeek5000]

do you understand what landstill is supposed to do... Lock people out while swining with manlands... while this is happening they are building there hand up while yours is shrinking... Windfall to draw a hefty amount of cards... How could that not fit...

[Zarathustra]

do you understand what landstill is supposed to do... Lock people out while swining with manlands... while this is happening they are building there hand up while yours is shrinking... Windfall to draw a hefty amount of cards... How could that not fit...

Landstill is not combo.

The fact that Draw-7's give you card disadvantage is a great reason why they shouldn't be in a control deck.  You both draw the same amount of cards, while you waste a card to do it.

Landstill seems a little bit slow for the current metagame.  It's losing to Fish because it can't deal with their clock fast enough.  It will get decimated by combo because it's slow...  The clock of this deck is agonizingly slow.

-DShell

[Shock Wave]

do you understand what landstill is supposed to do... Lock people out while swining with manlands... while this is happening they are building there hand up while yours is shrinking... Windfall to draw a hefty amount of cards... How could that not fit...

Landstill is not combo.

The fact that Draw-7's give you card disadvantage is a great reason why they shouldn't be in a control deck.  You both draw the same amount of cards, while you waste a card to do it.

Landstill seems a little bit slow for the current metagame.  It's losing to Fish because it can't deal with their clock fast enough.  It will get decimated by combo because it's slow...  The clock of this deck is agonizingly slow.

-DShell

On the contrary, a properly built Landstill is a great choice for a metagame comprised of CS, Gifts, GL, Fish. It has favourable matchups vs. Slaver and Grim Long, and it goes 50/50 vs. Fish and Gifts. The fact that LS has a slow clock isn't relevant if you have a sound game plan. If you plan on racing with Landstill, you're going to lose a hell of a lot games. Your goal is prevent your opponent from doing things and win when it is convenient for you, not to engage them in a race to victory.

Also, Windfall is absolutely horrible in Landstill. Green also doesn't give you anything worth splashing for. UW has too many dead cards. Build it UR, and taper your SB for your metagame. If you play a tight game, Landstill is a very underrated deck and very difficult to play against.

[netherspirit]

Go UR, it gives you Pyroclasm for stopping Fish critters, and lets you use Wheel of Fortune. Personally I agree with thecnogeek5000 about Draw-7s, they let you balance out any CA your opponent may have after you blow Standstill.

[zeus-online]

Actually...the draw7's will most likely give your opponent CA, since they pretty much feed off being able to cast alot of permanents fast, which landstill to my knowledge, is incapable of.

/Zeus

[Shock Wave]

Go UR, it gives you Pyroclasm for stopping Fish critters, and lets you use Wheel of Fortune. Personally I agree with thecnogeek5000 about Draw-7s, they let you balance out any CA your opponent may have after you blow Standstill.

This is insanity. Draw-7 spells fit into Landstill about as well as basic forests fit into Control Slaver. They have absolutely no synergy with the deck. If I'm understanding correctly, you want to try to resolve a sorcery spell to negate your opponent's card advantage? If your opponent has card advantage, you're typically not going to be resolving much. Even if you do resolve a Draw-7, what exactly do you plan on doing for the rest of your turn? You have no acceleration and no broken spells. If you're playing against control (Gifts, CS, etc) you can rest assured that they will shit on your head on their next turn. If you're playing against combo and plan on casting draw 7s, then I'm afraid you need to rethink your game plan. If you're playing against aggro, you'll likely be dead before a draw 7 is useful. Think board control. You want to prevent your opponent from casting spells and counter/deal with the ones that fall through the cracks. You are not combo.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I've been playing mono-blue Landstill for the last few weeks, and it's fairly good vs combo/Gifts, for the simple reason that I'm running 2 Trickbinds and a Wipe Away main, and a full complement of Chalices.  Landstill may be slow, but it's not *too* slow for anything.

[Auracon]

This is insanity. Draw-7 spells fit into Landstill about as well as basic forests fit into Control Slaver. They have absolutely no synergy with the deck. If I'm understanding correctly, you want to try to resolve a sorcery spell to negate your opponent's card advantage? If your opponent has card advantage, you're typically not going to be resolving much. Even if you do resolve a Draw-7, what exactly do you plan on doing for the rest of your turn? You have no acceleration and no broken spells. If you're playing against control (Gifts, CS, etc) you can rest assured that they will shit on your head on their next turn. If you're playing against combo and plan on casting draw 7s, then I'm afraid you need to rethink your game plan. If you're playing against aggro, you'll likely be dead before a draw 7 is useful. Think board control. You want to prevent your opponent from casting spells and countering/dealing with the ones that fall through the cracks. You are not combo.

All of this is exactly true. Note also that the standstill gives you three cards, which should put you ahead in terms of card advantage/quality. Your opponent will either burst landstill immediately or once you have 7 cards. Either way, you gain from landstill. Draw sevens just give your opponent card advantage back.

I have played UR landstill in vintage in the past, and I play it often in legacy. I find it stronger than UW. With 2-4 disks, 3-4 cotv, 5 strips, 0-3 stifles/trickbinds,and 0-2 tormods crypt it packs a lot of disruption. Not to mention the counters. If you lack draw you can put a 1-3 thirst for knowledge in to help out. The sideboard also allows for 4 REBs which are insane against gifts, and pyroclasm vs fish.

[scribe888]

hm... sounds pretty good.

so my only anti oath and colossi would be CoV but otherwise random aggro and fish are taken care of, would you be so kind as to post a sample ur landstill build?

thanks a bunch.

[Auracon]

Here is a build I built a while back. I just updated it a bit, so it might not be perfect but its a place to start. The kill is a bit slow, so I'd consider more conclaves. I'm also not sure if 4 chalices would be the right amount for your meta.

    3  Wasteland
    4  Mishra's Factory (4)
    1  Mountain
    4  Volcanic Island
    1  Strip Mine
    2  Flooded Strand
    2  Polluted Delta
    4  Island
    1  Bloodstained Mire
    1  Faerie Conclave

    2  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Standstill
    1  Mystical Tutor
    2  Stifle
    4  Chalice of the Void
    3  Nevinyrral's Disk
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Rushing River
    4  Mana Drain
    1  Time Walk
    4  Force of Will
    4  Brainstorm
    2  Fire/Ice
    1  Rack and Ruin

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Wipe Away
SB: 1  Trickbind
SB: 1  Fire/Ice
SB: 2  Rack and Ruin
SB: 3  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3  Pyroclasm
SB: 4  Red Elemental Blast

[TheMuffinMan]

Well keeping to your basic build I would say that you should probably drop one or two crucibles because drawing them in multiples isn't going to do anything for you. To add a time walk I would probably look to cutting the misdirections for timewalk and fact or fiction. So in the maindeck i would probably do something like

-1 Crucible +1brainstorm
-2 Misdirection +1 Timewalk +1 Fact or Fiction

One other cut i might look to make is taking out a chain of vapor for an echoing truth, wipe away, or a rushing river. A chalice at one will hurt you quite a bit and will leave you with no way to remove it.

I would certainly make sure to add that brainstorm fof and time walk. If you are set on the misdirections I might take out the stifles instead.

also if you have a moat I would probably remove the other crucible and use moat. Moat would help you in the fish match.

As for the sb i might look to making a few changes as well.

I would probably up your tomords crypt count to 3 or 4 as there seems to be a decent amoutn of decks in your metagame (dredge, gifts, dragon) which rely on graveyard. Also I might look into exhalted angel in the md or sb as it is good against goblins, fish, and sui. You can probably do without nullrod/needle spot. Also in combonation with tormods cyrpt you could include jotun grunt as that will help wreck graveyards. I would also probably make sure to include if you didn't in the main deck already, another type of bounce. Something like wipe away is usually pretty solid. Hope that helps. 

[Evol daN]

I agree strongly with Shock Wave and Auracon on several key points. Landstill is a control deck in terms of classical UU control. It can inherit several cards from prison type decks such as CotV, but in most cases/metas I do not think this is necessary, the exception being a crazy combo environment where grim/pitch long comprises 20% or more of the field.

I also agree that Windfall will be terrible for you about 90% of the times you draw it. It will only resolve half of the time it is good, so down to 5% and another 2.5% of the time it will benefit your opponents more than you… DON’T RUN IT. Standstill is your card advantage. If you feel you are not drawing enough add 4 x Accumulated Knowledge, 1 x Merchant Scroll, and 1 x intuition. This 6 card addition will provide a huge engine with standstill.

I also agree that U/R is powerful, it opens up possibilities for a ton of utility with the inclusion of 1 x Burning Wish and 1 x Cunning Wish. Some wish targets I loved when I ran Landstill; Meltdown, Pyroclasm, Mutilate, Teferi’s Response, Misdirection, Fact or Fiction, Diabolic Edict, Smother, Rack and Ruin, Terminate, Rebuild. I am not saying run them all I am simply providing ideas.

I might also suggest the addition of black splash. Putting 2 x Underground Sea into your deck allows for Yawg’s Win and my favorite secondary win condition in landstill 2 x Psychatog. This guy is definitely no more than a two copy in Landstill but whenever he hits he will block the hell out of wee bitty fish, shut down Jotun Grunts, and giggle like a school girl when you swing late game for a Billion.

The main problem I had when I played landstill was the annoying little turn 1 creatures that had abilities which made my land an ineffective win condition. I speak of Nimble Mongoose, Goblin Welder, Basking rootwalla, etc. Therefore in a modern landstill I would probably play 3 or 4 x Repeal in addition to the Rushing River. This does not help with the mongoose, but it does in most cases.

I think Engineered Explosives is better that Nev’s except against Stax. It is faster to hit@1 or 2 against fish, @0 against broken Moxen draw, etc. I would side in more card advantageous removal vs Stax. Something like Vashino Heretic

I might run something like this, keep in mind it is unpowered.

lands (22)
3 volcanics
2 underground
3 P delta
2 F strand
1 City of Brass
3 islands
3 wasteland
4 mishras factory
1 stripmine

Instants (24)
4 x brainstorm
3 x repeal
1 x mystical
1 x fire ice
4 x accumulated Knowledge
4 x mana Drain
1 x intuition
1 x rushing river
1 x cunning wish
1 x Crosis Charm
4 x Force of will

Sorceries
1 x demonic tutor
1 x burning wish
1 x Yawg’s OMG

Enchantments
4 x standstill

Arifacts
2 x E. Explosives/Nev’s Disk
1 x crucible

Creatures
2 x psychatog

Sideboard (all depends on your actual meta)
2 x Lava Dart
3 x Pyroclasm
3 x REBlast
2 x Meltdown
2 x Rack and Ruin
1 x Diabolic Edict
2 x tormod’s Crypt

I believe this is 60 cards… and definately a budget deck with no cards over 25USD, with the exception of the Mana Drains you aparently own. It has answers for everything and a lot of tutors/draw power to get there. I realize that this list is nearly totally different from your original.

To modify your current UW build I would first and foremost suggest fast card draw. Cards like Accumulated Knowledge, brainstorm, and Repeal. This would allow you to cut copies of cards you do not need more than 1 of and still see them with consistency (cutting 1 or 2 crucibles, and 2 or 3 lands).

On Stifle: I think you either need to commit to stifle or not. 2 x of that card is not consistent to function as land destruction vs wastelands or fetchlands. Either play more or one. IMO 1 x stifle for ToA and more raw card draw is preferable. 

Enlightened tutor has very little power in this deck and should be cut. It gets you disk and standstill at the cost of -1 card in hand… again more raw card draw is preferable.

I like the DoJ win off a big Mana Drain. Putting out beat sticks without losing a card is hot. Remember that sometimes it is better to show your FOW first to draw out their FOW which is generally a superior target for your Mana Drain.

Also, with the UW I think an excellent board choice could be abeyance. I just love this card. Siding in 4 Abeyance would definitely help against the powered decks. Especially gifts/dragon. Also for some matches Serenity is a great board card.

But all in all I prefer 3 color Landstill URB

[wuaffiliate]

Theres a lot of bastardization going on in this thread i have to say, landstill is very simple. This is my Ur current list, board is mainly for a control heavy meta. 4 ofs are your friend in landstill, you don't have tutors so you want to maximize your important spells.

Also anyone who has not, should read this primer by the deck's creator.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=18264.0

    1 Strip Mine
    4 Wasteland
    1 Library of Alexandria
    4 Mishra's Factory
    4 Faerie Conclave
    1 Mountain
    4 Island
    4 Volcanic Island
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    4 Fire/Ice
    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Wipe Away
    4 Standstill
    4 Nevinyrral's Disk
    4 Mana Drain
    4 Force of Will
    3 Misdirection
    3 Stifle

// Sideboard:
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Pyroclasm

[scribe888]

um...yeah interesting stuff from everywhere hehe, here's the list i eventually ran

4 tundra
3 flooded strands
3 polluted deltas
3 islands
2 plains
3 wastelands
1 strip mine
4 mishra's factory
2 faerie conclave

4 force of will
4 mana drain
2 misdirection
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
1 enlightened tutor [possibly tutors sideboard tech]
1 balance
3 swords to plowshares
2 nevinrryal's disk
2 crucible of worlds
2 exalted angel
2 chain of vapor
2 stifle
1 fact or fiction
1 lotus petal

sb
2 tormod's crypt
2 pithing needle
2 spawning pit
2 moat
2 energy flux
3 blue elemental blast
2 meddling mage

despite my dismal 2-2-2 finish, i'm quite pleased with the deck.

my losses were both to powered oath decks, they just have too many turn one broken plays but it's an accepted drawback since the players invested money on their power. my wins were against unpowered oath and stompy. the draws were against fcg and a storm combo deck (its a headache for both sides, seriously...) i was just really pissed of with the draw against fcg, the player was stalling...

anyways, the main changes i made to the deck made my deck run smoother. thank you for your suggestions. exalted angel was the bomb in every aggro deck. an early drain powered fact or fiction just made the game sweet. the lotus petal is there for possible turn one standstill or drain which happened quite often. moat in the sideboard was seriously brilliant, that is only because i managed to borrow two copies the day itself, sadly however i don't think i'll be able to borrow them next time.

with regards to the stifles, i wish they'd pop up in my hand in my opening hand more often but i'm happy with the frequency which they performed. my meta isn't that much into combo so basically stifle is an all aorund card and not a metagame call card, therefore the 2 is just right for me.

i've decided to forego the ur version until more gifts/slaver/blue based decks pop up in my meta. i've been studying your decklists and i think i can switch easily when i decide to go ur. playtesting will do the rest i guess.

with regards to keeping certain cards in my deck, the compulsion to remove stifle is with regards to the sensei's top and counterbalance combo which didn't go very well with me before so i'm sticking with my stifles, besides one of them is foiled [working my way on the pimp...sad how there's no power though hehe]

i will not play without the enlightened tutor because it fetches sideboard tech. spawning pit rapes oath. tutoring for a standstill is also a frequent play. but tutoring for a cow with drain mana is fun  :lol:

repeal in the deck is a very intriguing choice. maybe i'll run it when people get tired tinkering with their colossi. um yeah that came out wrong. 

btw, our champ was a lady! playing powered oath haha.