netherspirit
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« on: December 08, 2006, 04:57:12 pm » |
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Hey all, I came up with this idea not long ago and I've been testing it frantically since. I don't think the name has been used before, but if it has I guess I'll have to come up with something else. Anyway, as the name may suggest the idea is to play a ridiculous Yawgmoth's Will and then just go mad.  The deck has several ways to hit cards into the yard, and contains so many 1-drops and 2-drops that getting a lethal storm count is relatively easy. Here's the list so far: Mana Base:1 Black Lotus 5 Moxen 1 Sol Ring 1 Mana Crypt 1 Lotus Petal 1 Tolarian Academy 4 Underground Sea 4 Polluted Delta 3 Underground River Card Draw/Tutors:1 Ancestral Recall 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 4 Brainstorm 4 Night's Whisper 4 Mental Note 1 Frantic Search 1 Demonic Consultation 1 Careful Study Disruption:4 Force of Will 4 Mana Drain Accelerants:2 Elvish Spirit Guide 4 Dark Ritual Brokenness:1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Time Walk 1 Chain of Vapor The Kill:3 Tendrils of Agony Well there it is, as you can see the deck has one major weakness - yard hate. Anyways, card explanations: Underground River - The deck needs to have access to both of its colors on turn 1, so these are the next best thing to Underground Sea, I had considered Watery Grave, but I don't like the life loss, plus they die to Choke. Night's Whisper - 2 mana and 2 life for 2 cards? Pretty good deal I think!  With 1 Lotus, 1 Petal, 5 Moxen, 1 Crypt, 2 ESGs and 4 Rituals it's very easy to cast this turn one, which is a handy tempo boost. Mental Note, Frantic Search and Careful Study - Food for Yawgmoth's Will! And a cheap way to increase the storm count. Frantic Search is obviously helpful when combined with Tolarian Academy; Careful Study, however, is just there because I needed to fill the gap. Mana Drain - Can give me the mana I need to go broken as well as being a way to protect my spells. Elvish Spirit Guide - Almost act as Lotus Petals 2 and 3. Chain of Vapor - Can you say gg?  I'm thinking of a sideboard that goes something like: 3 Pithing Needle 2 Echoing Truth 3 Duress 2 Darkblast 2 Deathmark 2 Tormod's Crypt 1 Extract The deck keels to yard hate and Fish, so the Needles should stop Crypt and Withered Wretch, and Echoing Truth and Deathmark should stop pests like True Believer and Children of Korlis. Well anyways, there it is, I'm feeling really tired so I'll leave it there for now, I might add some more tomorrow if I get a bit more sleep. So, any thoughts? Criticism? Ideas? Thanks in advance guys!! netherspirit
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TimDeluxeIt
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2006, 05:25:59 pm » |
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Like you said, your deck runs so many 1 drops including only one chain that you need a Rebuild or at least a Hurkyl's to deal with Chalice at 1. You aslso need to run Timetwister as a reset button. Is NW and Mental note better than AK/Intuition?
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BC
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2006, 05:35:45 pm » |
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I'm no combo expert, but I'll take a crack at it.
1. Why not Cabal Ritual? Seems like an automatic 4-of in any Tendrils deck. Even with a casting cost of 2 it seems better than Elvish Spirit Guide.
2. I second the concern about Chalice. Even with a different/additional bounce spell can you win through Chalices? How about Leyline?
3. In my opinion, you should have some basic lands instead of U. River. Any deck with Wasteland (recurssion) will be a concern.
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netherspirit
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2006, 05:54:27 pm » |
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Like you said, your deck runs so many 1 drops including only one chain that you need a Rebuild or at least a Hurkyl's to deal with Chalice at 1. You aslso need to run Timetwister as a reset button. Is NW and Mental note better than AK/Intuition?
Thanks for the help!  I'm thinking that Rebuild might be worth trying as I can cycle it if I'm able to go off safely, any ideas what I should cut? As for Timetwister... I just don't like it. It crossed my mind, but it gives my opponent the chance to gain a load of counters and it empties my yard, meaning I can't go broken with Yawg's Will, and to be honest, this deck does struggle to go off without Yawgy. I think NW and Mental Note are better for this deck than AK/Intuition because they're faster, the AK engine requires at least 3 mana, with these I can easily get ditching and drawing, plus they're cheaper when trying to build the storm count up. I'm no combo expert, but I'll take a crack at it.
1. Why not Cabal Ritual? Seems like an automatic 4-of in any Tendrils deck. Even with a casting cost of 2 it seems better than Elvish Spirit Guide.
2. I second the concern about Chalice. Even with a different/additional bounce spell can you win through Chalices? How about Leyline?
3. In my opinion, you should have some basic lands instead of U. River. Any deck with Wasteland (recurssion) will be a concern.
Thanks too, input is always helpful.  1. Yet again something I'd considered, I felt that ESG was better purely because it's first turn acceleration, and when that means playing a Night's Whisper... it's just insane. I know it doesn't sound too great, but drawing those two cards helps so much. 2. I think Leyline is survivable, I struggle going off without Yawgy, but it IS possible. As for Chalice, I think more bounce is required. 3. I share the concerns about Wastelands, but the deck is usually fast enough to bypass this problem, plus I can just counter Crucible of Worlds if need be. Life from the Loam might be painful though, maybe bringing in Pithing Needle g2 will overcome this though? (Assuming I build my SB as I posted, which at this rate I shall).
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Jank Golem
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2006, 06:06:46 pm » |
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Mana Drain seems horribly out of place, you are playing a combo deck not a drain deck. Getting 2 blue up to cast it will only happen if you are already losing. The point of combo is to be fast and not sit around waiting to get UU up for drain. Mental Note seems pretty much strictly worse then Serum Visions or Sleight of Hand, Yawg Will doesn't need any more help to be good. I would suggest taking a look at Meandeck Tendrils, which seems to be most similiar to your decks idea and also Grim Long/Pitch Long.
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That0neguy
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2006, 12:09:38 am » |
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What if you mill Yawg will with the mental note. Can you win? to me it seems like you are cutting a bunch of bombs from a tendrils deck that gives you redundancy, to play fun little games with Yawg will. Also while Yawg will its nuts its often not a great idea to aim for playing Yawg will and only playing yawg will to end the game. I almost want to suggest rebuild splashing a single volcanic island to get around the metal not problem, but that still seems really bad. Also the fact that a lot of peoples game plans against gifts or control slaver include hating on either the graveyard or even Yawg will specifically, seems to suggest that useing it as your only win condition is not the safest idea. Also are 3 tendrils nessecary?
Adding tinker>DSC would at least help with this problem, and would make the odds of a single mental not killing you far less signifiant.
Cabal>Elvish spirit guide in this deck. You do not have much use for colorless mana to the point the point that drain could often cause mana burn if not cast the turn before going off. Also Elvish spirt guide does nothing in the graveyard, and doesn't add storm. Cabal adds storm can be played from the GY, and is likley to add 5 considering that your only goal is to fill the GY and will. My next question is if frantic search is really that great. It sucks up a lot of mana for card DA. It also can't cantrip earier. I think it would be better as a carful study.
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andrewpate
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2006, 01:15:15 am » |
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In previous Tendrils decks, such as TPS, Draw7, Old Long, Death Long, modern Long builds, Oath/TPS, Meandeck Tendrils, etc., Yawgmoth's Will has always been the key card. It's the card you can resolve and almost assuredly win the game. It appears that this build of the deck gives up some of the broken plays of which those decks are capable in exchange for going all-in on this plan. I simply do not see the motivation for this, since, as everyone knows, even the most antique TPS list, circa 2003, will almost never fail to win on a Will turn, if ever. How do you win against turn 1 Extract removing Will? How do you beat Stax with Chalice of the Void for 1 and a Tormod's Crypt in play? Meddling Mage set to Will stops you in your tracks until you can get Chain of Vapor. Even something as simple as Duress taking Will makes it almost impossible for you to win.
Yes, the deck could be improved by adding Hurkyl's Recall, Cabal Ritual, and maybe Darksteel Colossus, but the bottom line is this: why or under what circumstances would I want to play this instead of Pitch Long, Drain Tendrils, or Meandeck Gifts? Your post does a good job of explaining how the deck works, but not a very good one of explaing why it exists. Could you please clear this up for me?
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netherspirit
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2006, 05:06:06 am » |
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Yes, the deck could be improved by adding Hurkyl's Recall, Cabal Ritual, and maybe Darksteel Colossus, but the bottom line is this: why or under what circumstances would I want to play this instead of Pitch Long, Drain Tendrils, or Meandeck Gifts? Your post does a good job of explaining how the deck works, but not a very good one of explaing why it exists. Could you please clear this up for me?
Why yes I could clear it up for you.  To be honest I've never liked combo decks, for some reason I've never really clicked with them. This is just my attempt at a combo deck that suits me, I know at the moment there's a lot of room for improvement, but this is just a starting point. I'll admit there are better ways of building these sorts of decks, but this is just more suited to my way of playing. There's just a few things I want to add though: 1) This deck's power is reliant on how you play it, certain things just shouldn't be done, such as playing a Mox unless you really need to. 2) The problem of Mental Note-ing away Yawgmoth's Will was one of the first problems that came to mind before I even built the deck; and to be honest it's NEVER happened, and I've been testing this for quite a while. 3) I know Mental Note doesn't seem very good, but if you think about it - Mental Note followed by a Yawgmoth's Will is the same as Ancestral Recall. 4) And finally, it is possible to go broken without Yawgmoth's Will; a lot of the time this relies on Night's Whisper and the Moxen that you've hopefully been storing in your hand, but it is quite possible. The deck just takes a bit of practise. 
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Elric
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2006, 07:09:02 am » |
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There's just a few things I want to add though:
2) The problem of Mental Note-ing away Yawgmoth's Will was one of the first problems that came to mind before I even built the deck; and to be honest it's NEVER happened, and I've been testing this for quite a while. Nothing personal, but I can't stand statements like this. Your experience here is irrelevant- every time you resolve Mental Note and don't have Will in hand you have a 2/(Cards in Library) chance to Mental Note away Will. ELD/Puck the Cat had two of the definitive posts about why this kind of reasoning from experience is wrong in a thread on Belcher two years ago: I have played tons of charbelcher over the past few months. I play it mostly in an arena league with some alternate rules. You play one game vs anyone but the person from your last match. You do this as many times as possible over the course of 2 hours. In 2 hours you play 2 or 3 tournaments worth of matches when you're running a deck that only has 3 turns max. When people say stuff like "I've hit my other land once EVAR" etc it is just a function of how many games they're played. If you're playing 100's of games, you're going to see some crazy stuff. Hitting the other land is not crazy, it's common place.
Since the volume of games I've played is rather large, I'd like to point out some things. Spoils of the vault does exactly what the math says it should. It has killed me over one out of 10 times that I cast it. I'm glad to see it's moving out of alot of the lists. Hitting the other land in a 2 land version happens more than I'd like to admit. The real problem is it tends to happen only when you're going for a quick kill with no card drawing involved. When drawing through you deck, you'll often hit that other land or a land grant, sometimes even a tutor for land grant. The suicide hands that drop a belcher and activate often cannot activate a second time. When running up against another combo deck, hitting the other land is often game over as it gives them a turn to destroy you. Just for a statistical perspective on the whole thing, when you go off with one land still in your library you will do less than 20 damage nearly half of the time (20 cards for 20 damage, 50 or so cards in library). If you ever go off with a land left in your library simply make a note of it. If you do it more than 2-3 times that way and you don't hit the land it is just luck. It will catch up with you eventually.
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wuaffiliate
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2006, 10:51:11 am » |
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Yes, the deck could be improved by adding Hurkyl's Recall, Cabal Ritual, and maybe Darksteel Colossus, but the bottom line is this: why or under what circumstances would I want to play this instead of Pitch Long, Drain Tendrils, or Meandeck Gifts? Your post does a good job of explaining how the deck works, but not a very good one of explaing why it exists. Could you please clear this up for me?
Why yes I could clear it up for you.  To be honest I've never liked combo decks, for some reason I've never really clicked with them. This is just my attempt at a combo deck that suits me, I know at the moment there's a lot of room for improvement, but this is just a starting point. I'll admit there are better ways of building these sorts of decks, but this is just more suited to my way of playing. There's just a few things I want to add though: 1) This deck's power is reliant on how you play it, certain things just shouldn't be done, such as playing a Mox unless you really need to. 2) The problem of Mental Note-ing away Yawgmoth's Will was one of the first problems that came to mind before I even built the deck; and to be honest it's NEVER happened, and I've been testing this for quite a while. 3) I know Mental Note doesn't seem very good, but if you think about it - Mental Note followed by a Yawgmoth's Will is the same as Ancestral Recall. 4) And finally, it is possible to go broken without Yawgmoth's Will; a lot of the time this relies on Night's Whisper and the Moxen that you've hopefully been storing in your hand, but it is quite possible. The deck just takes a bit of practise.  3) The odds of removing will through mental note is statistically high enough to make me worry, and thus play something better. 4) Going broken from a Night's Wisper is extremely unlikely when you can never really follow with something substantial, remember that Night's Wisper is exactly 1 net card advantage, it only digs 2 cards deep hardly enough to really produce much brokeness for the cost of BX. As well your list has a much slower storm and mana producing engine than existing tendrils fueled combo and i would wager to say that you NEED Will to win through storm count, without it you will come up short in most instances. I would also like to ask what your average lethal tendrils turn is with your build.
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netherspirit
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2006, 11:54:56 am » |
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and i would wager to say that you NEED Will to win through storm count, without it you will come up short in most instances. Well then, try the deck and see if you can prove me wrong.  I would also like to ask what your average lethal tendrils turn is with your build.
Turn 2 is pretty common for a 14-16 point tendrils, it isn't ideal, but it's enough to ensure the next one kills. But turn 3/4 is the average for the kill, although in the last day alone I've had roughly 5 turn 1 kills. 
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wuaffiliate
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2006, 01:10:22 pm » |
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and i would wager to say that you NEED Will to win through storm count, without it you will come up short in most instances. Well then, try the deck and see if you can prove me wrong. This really isn't an acceptable answer. I would also like to ask what your average lethal tendrils turn is with your build.
Turn 2 is pretty common for a 14-16 point tendrils, it isn't ideal, but it's enough to ensure the next one kills. But turn 3/4 is the average for the kill, although in the last day alone I've had roughly 5 turn 1 kills.  It's slower than pitch and grim long, and much less broken than gifts i don't really see how it can produce consistent turn 2 kills. Is it that you use multiple tendrils over multiple turns to go lethal? If so why is that more effective than a deck that can accomplish that in one turn? I'm not trying to be rude, but i just want to know why this would be better than current options available, it doesn't seem you want help with the deck, more than you think it is viable and want it prove it somehow by saying "test it yourself".
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« Last Edit: December 09, 2006, 01:14:52 pm by wuaffiliate »
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netherspirit
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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2006, 01:41:26 pm » |
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and i would wager to say that you NEED Will to win through storm count, without it you will come up short in most instances. Well then, try the deck and see if you can prove me wrong. This really isn't an acceptable answer. I purely meant that in my experience with the deck you don't always need Will to win, if you want to physically prove me wrong then by all means go ahead. I just meant that I've found it is possible without Will. I would also like to ask what your average lethal tendrils turn is with your build.
Turn 2 is pretty common for a 14-16 point tendrils, it isn't ideal, but it's enough to ensure the next one kills. But turn 3/4 is the average for the kill, although in the last day alone I've had roughly 5 turn 1 kills.  It's slower than pitch and grim long, and much less broken than gifts i don't really see how it can produce consistent turn 2 kills. Is it that you use multiple tendrils over multiple turns to go lethal? If so why is that more effective than a deck that can accomplish that in one turn? I'm not trying to be rude, but i just want to know why this would be better than current options available, it doesn't seem you want help with the deck, more than you think it is viable and want it prove it somehow by saying "test it yourself". I have used multiple tendrils over multiple turns, although that really isn't a route I like to take. It does have an advantage though, it means that as long as the first tendrils was enough to take them down a lot, the second one doesn't need to be very big at all. What do you mean by "much less broken"? Could you please clarify this. I'll admit that this deck isn't the best option available at the moment, and yes I do want help with it. So far you've pointed out weaknesses in the deck, which is obviously very helpful  but when you do, such as with Night's Whisper, suggesting possible alternatives would be appreciated as I feel it would help develop the deck better and give more options to discuss. Thanks for the feedback!!! Very much appreciated.  EDIT: I messed up the quotes there. Cant work out how to fix it though. 
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Methuselahn
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2006, 04:33:44 pm » |
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Trying to make Dark Ritual and Mana Drain work together in the same deck is HARD. It has to be a better Ritual-Storm deck, while also be the best Drain deck. Not easy.
Mana Drains make your deck inherently slower. In the Drain mirror match, the non-ritual Drain deck will beat you if the game reaches the mid-game point. Which it will, because you're playing Drains too. By nature, Drain-Ritual decks fail to resolve spells. It's hard to win the small wars that the Drain mirror needs to do when you are playing 'all-in' cards like Ritual.
This type of deck design wants to be half Long and half Drains. This fight results in a strategy that is simply not as cohesive and synergistic as more focused netdeck builds out there.
Regarding using 2 Tendrils; If your plan is to launch 2 tendrils to win then you are putting yourself in a losing tactical plan. IMO, generating the storm count is far easier than getting your spells through anyway.
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netherspirit
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« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2006, 07:57:50 am » |
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Regarding using 2 Tendrils; If your plan is to launch 2 tendrils to win then you are putting yourself in a losing tactical plan. IMO, generating the storm count is far easier than getting your spells through anyway.
I'll admit I do agree there; but as I've mentioned, using 2 Tendrils is not the main plan, it's just a backup plan in case my first one doesn't quite win. As for Mana Drain, I'll admit it does make the deck slow, but it helps to ensure that my cards resolve. How about if I replace it with something along the lines of Duress or Hymn to Tourach though? Would that be a better replacement?
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zeus-online
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« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2006, 09:07:29 am » |
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As for Mana Drain, I'll admit it does make the deck slow, but it helps to ensure that my cards resolve.
For that particular purpose, misdirection is strictly superior...although duress might be better if you face alot of trickbinds. /Zeus
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netherspirit
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« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2006, 10:03:55 am » |
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As for Mana Drain, I'll admit it does make the deck slow, but it helps to ensure that my cards resolve.
For that particular purpose, misdirection is strictly superior...although duress might be better if you face alot of trickbinds. /Zeus I hadn't even thought of Misdirection!  The only problem I see with it though is the ditching a card; I'm worried that it could slow the deck down too much.
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« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2006, 11:33:40 am » |
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What? you haven't heard of pitch long?  /Zeus
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netherspirit
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« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2006, 02:28:32 pm » |
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What? you haven't heard of pitch long?  /Zeus Course I have.  But I meant that but beings this deck can run out of steam easily I'm not sure that pitching my blue spells is a good idea; hence why I'm more inclined to try Duress first. However, it can't hurt to try each of them can it? 
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Implacable
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« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2006, 04:39:38 pm » |
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Hey all, I came up with this idea not long ago and I've been testing it frantically since. I don't think the name has been used before, but if it has I guess I'll have to come up with something else. Anyway, as the name may suggest the idea is to play a ridiculous Yawgmoth's Will and then just go mad.  The deck has several ways to hit cards into the yard, and contains so many 1-drops and 2-drops that getting a lethal storm count is relatively easy. Here's the list so far: Mana Base:1 Black Lotus 5 Moxen 1 Sol Ring 1 Mana Crypt 1 Lotus Petal 1 Tolarian Academy 4 Underground Sea 4 Polluted Delta 3 Underground River Card Draw/Tutors:1 Ancestral Recall 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 4 Brainstorm 4 Night's Whisper 4 Mental Note 1 Frantic Search 1 Demonic Consultation 1 Careful Study Disruption:4 Force of Will 4 Mana Drain Accelerants:2 Elvish Spirit Guide 4 Dark Ritual Brokenness:1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Time Walk 1 Chain of Vapor The Kill:3 Tendrils of Agony Well there it is, as you can see the deck has one major weakness - yard hate. Anyways, card explanations: Underground River - The deck needs to have access to both of its colors on turn 1, so these are the next best thing to Underground Sea, I had considered Watery Grave, but I don't like the life loss, plus they die to Choke. Night's Whisper - 2 mana and 2 life for 2 cards? Pretty good deal I think!  With 1 Lotus, 1 Petal, 5 Moxen, 1 Crypt, 2 ESGs and 4 Rituals it's very easy to cast this turn one, which is a handy tempo boost. Mental Note, Frantic Search and Careful Study - Food for Yawgmoth's Will! And a cheap way to increase the storm count. Frantic Search is obviously helpful when combined with Tolarian Academy; Careful Study, however, is just there because I needed to fill the gap. Mana Drain - Can give me the mana I need to go broken as well as being a way to protect my spells. Elvish Spirit Guide - Almost act as Lotus Petals 2 and 3. Chain of Vapor - Can you say gg?  I'm thinking of a sideboard that goes something like: 3 Pithing Needle 2 Echoing Truth 3 Duress 2 Darkblast 2 Deathmark 2 Tormod's Crypt 1 Extract The deck keels to yard hate and Fish, so the Needles should stop Crypt and Withered Wretch, and Echoing Truth and Deathmark should stop pests like True Believer and Children of Korlis. Well anyways, there it is, I'm feeling really tired so I'll leave it there for now, I might add some more tomorrow if I get a bit more sleep. So, any thoughts? Criticism? Ideas? Thanks in advance guys!! netherspirit Hmm, this looks like an intriguing hybrid of Meandeck Tendrils, with its 1 mana = 1 card philosophy, and IT. However, the use of Drain in a deck like this is simply counterintuitive. You are a deck which should rapidly through your library and then go for a massive Will on turn 3, or perhaps turn 4. Alternatively, you may sometimes just randomly go off through Rituals and Tutors, like any Long deck ever made. The problem is that Long always uses the mana available to it every single term, with your deck being an extreme even in this category! You can't afford to leave 2 mana up for each important spell that you cast. Obviously, Force of Will is a must, so I recommend that you experiment, as has been posted with Duress and Misdirection (in a deck like yours, Duress is probably better, because it fits neatly into the one mana = good effect slot that you try to utilize). Furthermore, I cannot fathom your reasoning as to the use of Elvish Spirit Guide in a deck that will always get Threshhold by turn 3 at the latest. In other words, use Cabal Ritual. Also, if I were you, I would switch the numbers around in your list for Studies vs. Notes. The folks who've posted already are quite right in their citation of statistics, and, assuming that a Will resolves and using your logic, Study is a 4-for-1.
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netherspirit
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« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2006, 05:11:28 pm » |
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How do the following changes look to everyone?
-2 ESG -4 Mana Drain -2 Mental Note +2 Cabal Ritual +4 Duress +2 Careful Study
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« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2006, 02:30:33 pm » |
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I think that you definately want to play 4 cabal rituals in your deck. They make it so much easier to go off on the first or second turn of the game. Playing cabal ritual will allow you to cast night's whisper and still have mana left over to continue casting other spells and potentially combo out your opponent.
Another thing, i noticed that you seem to have a lot of faith in casting night's whisper on turn 1. If you don't use a ritual of some sort to do this, generally your turn will end with you having played a land, and spent 2 cards to draw 2 cards. I understand that this does get you further into your deck, but i think your almost always better on turn 1 casting duress, or passing turn and casting brainstorm in your opponents end step.
Ultimatley though i think there are a lot of changes that could be made to improve this deck, at the moment though, i suugest the following:
-2 esg -4 mana drain -4 mental note -3 underground river
+4 duress +4 cabal ritual +2 some variety of bounce spell, such as but not limited to - echoing truth, rushing river, hurkyl's recall, rebuild +3 basic land 2 and 1 swamp and island basing which to play 2 of and which to play 1 of on the final spells that you choose.
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« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2006, 03:34:01 pm » |
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I think that you definately want to play 4 cabal rituals in your deck. They make it so much easier to go off on the first or second turn of the game. Playing cabal ritual will allow you to cast night's whisper and still have mana left over to continue casting other spells and potentially combo out your opponent.
Another thing, i noticed that you seem to have a lot of faith in casting night's whisper on turn 1. If you don't use a ritual of some sort to do this, generally your turn will end with you having played a land, and spent 2 cards to draw 2 cards. I understand that this does get you further into your deck, but i think your almost always better on turn 1 casting duress, or passing turn and casting brainstorm in your opponents end step.
Ultimatley though i think there are a lot of changes that could be made to improve this deck, at the moment though, i suugest the following:
-2 esg -4 mana drain -4 mental note -3 underground river
+4 duress +4 cabal ritual +2 some variety of bounce spell, such as but not limited to - echoing truth, rushing river, hurkyl's recall, rebuild +3 basic land 2 and 1 swamp and island basing which to play 2 of and which to play 1 of on the final spells that you choose.
While I agree with some of the changes that you propose, I think that you may be missing the overall purpose of his deck, which is certainly one worth exploring. The removal of Mental Notes wholesale takes away from his normal process of development, which is acchieved through quality cantrips like Note and Study and then moves on to the finding and casting of a large Will on turn 3. Nevertheless, there are other cantrips better than Note, and thus the switch of the Study vs. Note count. Spirit, I also recommend to you the additional of another Tendrils to your deck. Given that you will likely be using every tutor at your disposal, it seems that having a Tendrils in hand would greatly aid in the percentage of early kills that your deck can acchieve. Furthermore, I recommend that you try out additional cantrips to explore their utility, such as Serum Visions and Predict.
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netherspirit
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« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2006, 04:53:55 pm » |
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Thanks for the help so far guys!!  I've just made the following changes: -2 ESG -4 Mana Drain -2 Mental Note +2 Cabal Ritual +4 Duress +2 Careful Study My next step will be to add 2 more bounce cards and an additional Tendrils. Any suggestions on what to cut?
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« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2006, 07:12:00 pm » |
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Hmm, before we do that, let's fix up your land manabase a little. If I were you, I'd cut the Rivers right out for some basic lands, presuming that you have Stax or Fish in your meta at all. You should go for 2x Swamp + 1x Island. Next, you may want to experiment with cutting a Sea or two for Flooded Strands, which are generally better in any deck than the duals they fetch and which are great in a deck that wants to cycle its way into good cards. These changes may seem minor, but they are critical to establishing a fundamentally sound base.
Next, onto the changes you propose. In my humble opinion, having two maindeck bounce spells in any deck is simply unnecesary, so a simple Rebuild should be enough. Now, I'd also like to point out that this deck in particular is a primarily Ritual-based deck; in other words, Rituals are the only cards that can fuel its exceedingly mana-hungry Wills. To that end, I propose the addition of two more Cabal Rituals, which are good in any storm deck, and the following changes overall:
+1 Rebuild +1 Tendrils of Agony +2 Cabal Ritual +2 Swamp +1 Island +1 Flooded Strand -2 Underground Sea -3 Underground River -1 Demonic Consultation (This card seems excessively risky in a deck that essentially relies on one card to go off) -1 Night's Whisper (Three is probably enough, considering that you'll always have a draw spell on turn 1) -1 Duress (This cut is particularly painful, but the fact is that there's nothing else in the list to cut, and that your cycling should find ample disruption)
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Jay Turner Has Things To SayMy old signature was about how shocking Gush's UNrestriction was. My, how the time flies. 'An' comes before words that begin in vowel sounds. Grammar: use it or lose it
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andrewpate
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« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2006, 07:32:57 pm » |
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Turn 0 Leyline of the Void is currently gg but for your one Chain of Vapor. An Ichorid player with knowledge of your deck could start with a Leyline and make a Putrid Imp and double-Cabal Therapy you on turn one for Chain or anything cabable of getting it. You are in a very bad position at this point. Rebuild is good, but I would suggest having an additional answer to non-artifact permanents. Note that other highly played cards, such as Jotun Grunt, are also extremely problematic for the deck in its current form, and a quick Echoing Truth to reset the Cumulative Upkeep could be what you need if you've gotten too low on life to slow-roll and wait for the Grunt to burn out.
I'm still stuck back on how you win if you Mental Note or Demonic Consultation your Yawgmoth's Will away. If not Regrowth, maybe Krosan Reclamation or something. And I think that running D-Con at all is too risky. Then again, you still scoop to turn 1 Extract. Would a Burning Wish toolbox but Will in the maindeck be more stable? You could tutor for a removed Will that way.
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netherspirit
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« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2006, 03:21:28 am » |
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I've been considering the Burning Wish route, and I think it is probably a good idea, although, would Death Wish be better? That way I can get anything I RFG with Yawg Wil/Demonic. Hmm, before we do that, let's fix up your land manabase a little. If I were you, I'd cut the Rivers right out for some basic lands, presuming that you have Stax or Fish in your meta at all. You should go for 2x Swamp + 1x Island. Ooops!!!! I forgot to post those changes.  I've already done that, and I shall try adding 1 Flooded Strand and 1 Bloodstained Mire. I'm still not sold on Cabal Ritual, I mean, I know it's amazing, but it's not good unless I've got some draw spells to get me going. -1 Night's Whisper (Three is probably enough, considering that you'll always have a draw spell on turn 1)
That's one change I really don't like, I'll try it, but the deck is SO reliant on draw spells, that cutting one of its most efficient ones would slow it down too much IMO. Anyways, I shall try everything and keep on tweaking! Thanks so much for the help guys!! 
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« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2006, 11:26:35 am » |
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You're absolutely right about your deck being entirely reliant on early draw to enable its win. However, an extra Tendrils, Rebuild, and Rituals all absolutely need to be added. In your deck, I would even consider mixing the counts of Dark vs. Cabal Rituals if you don't want to cut a draw spell, because threshhold is ludicrously easy for your deck to get.
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Jay Turner Has Things To SayMy old signature was about how shocking Gush's UNrestriction was. My, how the time flies. 'An' comes before words that begin in vowel sounds. Grammar: use it or lose it
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netherspirit
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« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2006, 02:30:11 pm » |
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This may sound ludicrous, but I'm wondering whether or not I want Time Walk in here.... Any thoughts?
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Harlequin
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« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2006, 02:53:31 pm » |
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Where is Necropotence? Turn 1 Rit->Necro is really great for any tendrils based deck. Not sure if its oversight or willingly left out.
I would also Highly suggest Tinker & Memory Jar. Tinker is amazing for getting Jar if your having trouble winning ... and Tinker -> Lotus is really good given certian situations. You might want to try and squeeze mana vault in there to support Tinker as well. Tinker also lets you run DSC in the board for game two when you may need to resort to "the man plan."
Lastly with the curve up a bit more (Jar possibly DSC) Mind's Desire becomes a solid choice.
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