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Author Topic: Budget Grow Variant  (Read 2938 times)
Rittler
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« on: December 13, 2006, 07:52:48 am »

Hi!

First off, I know that most people think Grow can't be played without Moxen and Lotus, so please don't comment on that, cause I'm aware of it...

I built this deck today at university, so I didn't have a chance to test it yet. It was built for a 20 players T1 tournament, which I'm invited to, because of being in the top 20 players of a magic-cup this year. An this tournament I have the chance of winning around 300$, so I definately want to play something that does well against most of the field...
Coming to the field, I have to discribe it...
I think the most played decks will be Staxx, Gifts and Fish but there might be one or two Oaths. I could also run some kind of fish, but I'm popular for running the unexpected kind of decks each tournament and this is why I came to this deck. Another reason for building this deck is, that I only own a Mox Emerald and an Ancestral Recall, and the only other deck that could be using these two is WTF and probably Birdshit. I ran WTF for quite some time, but recently it didn't do that good, so I started thinking of something else.

So I guess it's time to post my list now...

The creature base:

4x Quirion Dryad
2x Psychatog
4x Dark Confidant
1x Darksteel Collosus

The disruption package:

4x Force of Will
2x Misdirection
3x Daze
3x Duress
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Whipe Away

Draw/Business:

4x Brainstorm
1x Gush
1x Ancestral Recall

The Toolbox:

2x Life from the Loam
1x Tinker
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor

The Manabase:

1x Mox Emerald
1x Mana Crypt
1x Lotus Petal
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
3x Island
1x Strip Mine
1x Swamp


Explainations:

Tinker/DSC: I know, most people will say cut it...BUT...I found that most of the time at these tourneys it was very useful. I packed it in most of my decks, such as WTF or Tendrils K.I., U/R/B Fish and it won me games I wouldn't have won without it. Actually it does quite well against Fish, which might be the worst matchup for this deck, because I only have to guard it 2 Turns to win. So I don't think I want to cut it. Perhapes some of you might say 7 Artefacts is not enough, but I think with Confidant, Brainstorms, Ancestral and Opts I'll always have one in play when I draw into Tinker

Counterbase: I think FoW is obvious so I don't have to explain much here. But concerning the Dazes and Mana Leaks, there could be some tweaking. I also thought about a Counterbase of 4 FoW, 3 Daze and 2 Misdirections, which might be better, because they're all free counters so I don't have to leave mana open for Leaks...what do you think about it?

Life from the Loam: I think LftL is an autoinclude nowadays if you play Tog, since it really helps making him lethal. Also it could randomly support a Loam + Strip Lock...and it helps stabilizing my manabase against Wastelands

Acceleration: Since Mox Emerald is the only Mox I own, it's obvious that I included it. Mana Crypt and Lotuspetal are there to help in the early turns and might if drawn later, be discarded into my Psychatog. I also thought about adding some Elvish Spirit Guides, which would help powering out a 1st turn Dryad, but I think this deck's aim is not to kill as fast as possible, but to kill fast and secure if you know what I mean...

The rest: Chalice is there to stop opposing Moxen and support Tinker. Confidant is my drawengine on a stick and the Tutors help me getting my bounce if need be or get me my Tinker or Loam or whatever I might need in a specific moment.


Well I guess that's it so far... I will playtest this in the next days and tell you how it did and I hope you'll help me improve this to be a competitive deck for the given meta.

At last I'm sorry for my bad english, but I'm german...
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 05:34:30 pm by Rittler » Logged

~carpe noctem~
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2006, 10:03:47 am »

I would cut Opt for better cards:

Mystical Tutor
Gush
Frantic Search (maybe)

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« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2006, 03:22:55 pm »

Gush is a must-have in Gro, add it for one of the Opts for sure. Mystical Tutor is always nice to have, especially in Gro where you absolutely love casting Time Walk. Frantic Search seems weak in Gro, well for Tog atleast, simply because you end up with less cards at hand that you started with.

To sum things up, run more Cantrips. Shadow of Doubt is pretty sold in anything UB/x, especially with Dryads. I also like Stifle, however Daze and Stifle arent necessary IMO. I have been finding a lot of luck with Misdirection lately. If you play versus and UW Fish variants, you are bound to come across Swords to Plowshares. Misd takes care of that, as well as steals Ancestral Recall and wins counter-wars.
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Rittler
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« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2006, 05:33:37 pm »

Mystical Tutor and Gush are two cards I forgot...they are definately in, I'll edit this in the decklist...

Also Misdirection seems to be better than Leak, so I'll edit this as well...

Shadow of Doubt however doesn't seem that good to me, of course it's a cantrip and it helps against opposing tutors or Tinkers and stuff, but it takes 2 Mana, which I actually don't want to leave open. However, if you can tell me, what I should take out for them I'll give em a try...

Stifle is something I thought about myself, but I didn't find room yet, so again, if you can tell me what to take out, I'll try em...

And I'm now searching for room for a Regrowth just in case I need my Whipe Away a second time, or a Tinker gets counterd or just to recur an Ancestral or whatever. What I want to say - I think it's a very versatile card in this deck and should definately be included.

I also now came up with a profesorical Sideboard which looks like this:

3x Massacre --> wreck Fish
3x Diabolic Edict --> wreck Oath
4x Null Rod --> Help against Staxx
1x Duress --> 4 Duress against Combo seems fine to me
2x Oxidize --> Help against Staxx
2x Pithing Needle --> Help against whatever (for example Wastelands, Bazars, Welders, Slaver,...what the heck...)

Thanks for your help so far, I'm looking forward to more posts and advises...

« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 05:41:03 pm by Rittler » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2006, 02:23:47 am »

Run Jotun Grunt and Merchant Scroll. With Merchant Scroll, you can create a chain of Ancestral Recalls with the help of Jotun Grunt. Also, run Shadow of Doubt, as it kicks the heck out of Fish and Drain variants. It's basically a card quality killer, and a cantrip.


Heres my current Gro. You may not have all the power cards in here, so I'll try and adapt to what you have available and build around it.


// Mana 20
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra


// Creatures 8
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Jotun Grunt
1 Darksteel Colossus


// Spells 33
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Rushing River
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
3 Stifle
4 Shadow of Doubt
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Swords to Plowshares


// Sideboard 15
1 Swords to Plowshares - Additional Removal
3 Ray of Revelation - Oath, Cron Stax
3 Pithing Needle - Stax, Fish, whatever
3 Trygon Predator - Super tech, it's a gift for Stax
2 Hail Storm - Fish
3 Meddling Mage - Combo, Gifts


I would also like to thank Elia Vaisberg for the tech.
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Rittler
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2006, 07:54:28 am »

Your version definately seems to be a nice built, but I'm wondering if the loss of black and with that the loss of Confidants and Tutors as Draw and Duress as a very strong control element, is worth the addition of white.
Surely Merchant Scroll + Ancestral Recall + Jötun Grunt seems to be a very lucrative way of getting cards, but it's also an expensive way. You need 3 Mana each time and a resolved Grunt. With Confidant you only invest 2 Mana and get an extra card each turn. That seems to be far more doable if you're missing the power - like I do. Next point is...I'm missing a Gush in your list...as well as I'm wondering if Sol Ring really is better than Mana Crypt...and I'm wondering if you really are able to support 4 Wastelands (as they're colorless manasources) in a 3 colored Grow built, since you almost always want colored mana on your table and with running such few lands as you do in Grow, I guess you don't want to draw into Wastelands most of the time. Surely they add a great control and stallelement to your list, but I guess they weaken your manabase far more than they help against your enemy. Concerning the manabase I also think that Life from the Loam is a card that should definately be considered since it helps so much stabalizing on your landcount - and with playing it one should definately include either Mongrel or Tog - and since we're playing Grow our first choice would be Tog - and now we're again at the point of the addition of black. And the biggest thing I have to critizize concerning your list - where the f**k is Brainstorm??? I think this should definately be an autoinclude in every blue based deck - especially in a deck like grow where u want lots of business spells....


I guess I will have to test this, since I also don't have enough Tundras and Meddling Mages to build it, and see if they're worth the investition...

Also I'm wondering if Rushing River does better than Whipe Away, of course it is able to bounce 2 permanents at once but you need counterbackup which you don't need if running Whipe Away.

Concerning your Sideboard...

Hail Storm seems to be a very nice card on itsself, but if you look at its casting cost you need to have GG avalible on the table and as it's a card against fish counterbackup. With Massacre you will probably be able to cast it for free (if running black) and got mana left on your side of the table for eventual counterbackup

Trygon Predator however is a definate include in my sideboard as well, I simply forgot about that card...it's absolutely insane against Staxx and Slaver...


Thanks so far
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 08:34:12 am by Rittler » Logged

~carpe noctem~
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2006, 05:26:56 pm »

Elias Vaisberg ran a 4c list. Some time ago, some people devoloped a 3c List, but instead of Green, it's black. Black is better if your going to play against Drain decks, otherwise, Green is much better to have. You can find this discussion in the Bird Shit Thread.

Yeah... I forgot to shove a Gush in there.... and Brainstorms too. I sorta stepped away from this deck for a while, because I seem to like Bird Sh*t more. Heres my current build.

The mana investment in those cards are nothing. This deck can still function without Jotun Grunt, as Merchant Scrolls are by far the most important cards in this deck. This deck wants that 1st turn Ancestral Recall, then a flurry of disruption to go along with it. Jotun Grunts are there to ensure you have a late game, which was one of the flaws of Bird Shit. Confidants work too actually, but it's too vaunerable to Engineered Plague and Darkblast... then again, that's just my meta, which happens to be packed in every Drain deck. But if you want to run Black, that's fine, but invest on Meddling Mages and Tundras, as they can come in handy against most Combo-Control decks, and even Prison, and with Stifle backed up, 4c isnt really bad.

Also, Massacre can kill your own Mages, whereas, Hail Storm is just one damage. IMO, doesnt really think it mages a difference.


// Lands
    1  Flooded Strand
    4  Windswept Heath
    3  Tundra
    3  Tropical Island
    3  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine

// Creatures
    4  Quirion Dryad
    3  Jotun Grunt

// Spells
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Daze
    4  Force of Will
    1  Gush
    3  Stifle
    4  Shadow of Doubt
    3  Misdirection
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Time Walk
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Wipe Away
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Ruby
    4  Merchant Scroll
    3  Null Rod
    1  Mystical Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3  Ray of Revelation
SB: 3  Trygon Predator
SB: 2  Crucible of Worlds
SB: 4  Medding Mage

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« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2006, 05:06:00 pm »

Something I recently have been thinking of trying in Gro is Erayo, Soratami Ascendant. It seems to work very well with Cantrips, and provides a fairly strong lock that your opponent will struggle getting out of. It seems like it would fit in a Gro-based deck, using Dryads of course because they run so many Cantrips, cheap spells, etc.

Has anyone heard of this being tested in a deck like this?

I am currently thinking on whether I should make my list UGB or UGW. The white splash seems like it would have a stronger Fish matchup because I could run Swords to Plowshares, which makes a large impact on my decision, and possibly Jotun Grunt. The black splash gives me Dark Confidant, which I love, and Duress, one of the best spells like... ever. Black also has strong Tutors (Demonic, Vampiric), and they are always nice in Vintage, especially when I want two counters for my Dryad/Erayo. I like black a lot, but I am afraid that Duress is not the absolute best card for my meta, so that may be a wasted slot, however it may also save my Dryad from getting pwned via Swords to Plowshares. Feedback on this specific question would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2006, 05:14:49 pm by wethepeople » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2006, 11:40:46 am »

I tried Erayo, several months back in a Gro-Tog variant, and found it to be nothing short of amazing.  The little flying guy was nice to have, and he's extremely easy for this deck to flip.  A flipped Erayo is enormous card advantage.  But I found the Merchant Scroll to be absolutely key in flipping him.  If you're playing Erayo, get the scrolls in there.

I loved it.
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Rittler
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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2007, 11:39:41 am »

After some weaks of testing I now have to say that I think that the black variant is much faster then the one with white. The Ancestral + Grunt + Merchant Scroll Engine is weak against Confidant's consistant draw, because it absolutely isn't consitant. You rarely get all three parts on the table...
Also Tog provides a decent clock, since you can easily mangage to get Tog lethal by the turns 3-5. I also have to say that I am now able to borrow all the power except Lotus and so my current list changed to the following:

4x Quirion Dryad
4x Dark Confidant
2x Psychatog
1x Darksteel Colossus

1x Tinker
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Gush
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Wipe Away

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Stifle
3x Shadow of Doubt
2x Misdirection
4x Brainstorm

5x Moxen
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Bayou
1x Strip Mine
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island


The lack of Swords to Plowshares is a problem, but it might be solved by sideboarding Diabolic Edict. Also I don't know if I should change the counter configuration into something that contains some copys of Duress, since it's such a strong card. Also I really want to fit in a Regrowth since playing Time Walk or Ancestral two times a game is fun ^^

I did some testing with Erayo in the white built but it nearly always came too late to have any greater effect on the game - I might test it in the black variant.

Concerning the testing - the Deck did fairly well against most of the field, but fish is hard. Sideboarding Diabolic Edict and going the Man-Plan helps a lot. Against Staxx you have to counter their early threads, lay down a Dryad or even better a Tog and ride home for the win. Combo is like it always was - if he has the perfect hand he'll win anyway, but if he doesn't have it you're most likely to win, since you got loads of disruption against them (Shadow of Doubt, FoW, Stifle, Daze, Misdirection,...)

So far, I'm still working on it and hope you'll help me finish this deck...
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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2007, 05:25:52 pm »

The lack of Swords to Plowshares is a problem, but it might be solved by sideboarding Diabolic Edict.

The problem with Edict in Gro is that Misdirection will lose you the game because it will most likely force you to sacrifice your Dryad after using a majority of your cantrips. I would reccomend using Darkblast instead since it gets the job done for creature removal, as well as garuntee one counter a turn for Dryad, and lastly, fill the graveyard up quickly for your Tog to munch on.
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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2007, 06:30:25 pm »

After some weaks of testing I now have to say that I think that the black variant is much faster then the one with white. The Ancestral + Grunt + Merchant Scroll Engine is weak against Confidant's consistant draw, because it absolutely isn't consitant. You rarely get all three parts on the table...
Also Tog provides a decent clock, since you can easily mangage to get Tog lethal by the turns 3-5. I also have to say that I am now able to borrow all the power except Lotus and so my current list changed to the following:

4x Quirion Dryad
4x Dark Confidant
2x Psychatog
1x Darksteel Colossus

1x Tinker
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Gush
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Wipe Away

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Stifle
3x Shadow of Doubt
2x Misdirection
4x Brainstorm

5x Moxen
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Bayou
1x Strip Mine
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island


The lack of Swords to Plowshares is a problem, but it might be solved by sideboarding Diabolic Edict. Also I don't know if I should change the counter configuration into something that contains some copys of Duress, since it's such a strong card. Also I really want to fit in a Regrowth since playing Time Walk or Ancestral two times a game is fun ^^

I did some testing with Erayo in the white built but it nearly always came too late to have any greater effect on the game - I might test it in the black variant.

Concerning the testing - the Deck did fairly well against most of the field, but fish is hard. Sideboarding Diabolic Edict and going the Man-Plan helps a lot. Against Staxx you have to counter their early threads, lay down a Dryad or even better a Tog and ride home for the win. Combo is like it always was - if he has the perfect hand he'll win anyway, but if he doesn't have it you're most likely to win, since you got loads of disruption against them (Shadow of Doubt, FoW, Stifle, Daze, Misdirection,...)

So far, I'm still working on it and hope you'll help me finish this deck...

Considered adding Yawgmoth's Will in there? I have, and I liked it. Add in a couple of Gifts, Wishes, Drains, and Scrolls and you have yourself a Drain deck with tons of fuel.
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2007, 07:00:26 pm »

Considered adding Yawgmoth's Will in there? I have, and I liked it. Add in a couple of Gifts, Wishes, Drains, and Scrolls and you have yourself a Drain deck with tons of fuel.

Yawg Will is also something I would highly suggest, I just didnt see that it wasn't already in the list because I would assume that it is a given in Gro simply because it is broken and a half. Merchant Scrolls are probably still strong in here, despite the fact that you removed the Jotun Grunt tech. Maybe as a 3-of? However morphing the deck into a Drain-based build seems a bit janky to me.
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Rittler
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« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2007, 06:37:02 am »

I can't add Drains, since I don't own any and the guy who borrows me the Power sold his Drains recently...

Yawgmoth's Will might definately be worth the inclusion and Merchant Scrolls might also be worth testing, but what shall I take out for those? In my opinion Shadow of Doubt is the weakest card in the deck because of it's castingcost, but I might be wrong...

What would you take out for those cards?
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« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2007, 12:16:50 pm »

Great to see Gro being rebuilt. I remember that it was the first Vintage deck I wanted to build. (Ah the memories.) Anyways the biggest problem that I have seen come up with Gro decks is the actual Tog. For 2U instead of 1UB you can Tinker for an 11/11 instead of casting a Tog. Smiley ends up eating your hand, which leaves you with no protection and removing your GY which leaves no back-up Will. Do you find the Tog that good/necessary? Your list runs 2 Togs how often do you Tutor for them? Would getting Tinker have been an equally good choice? It seems to me that the Togs could be cut for some more protection or tutors. In your first post you said that the lack of artifacts was what made you question Tinker. Now that you have Moxen isn't it stronger? Cutting Tog would make room for Scrolls/Seal/Pithing Needle/Will etc. If your friend has an Imperial Seal I would cut the Togs for 1xImperial Seal and 1xYawgmoth's Will. Dryad and Colossus seem quite capable of taking out 20 life without the loss of your hand and graveyard. If you DO stick with Tog try to find Berserks. They can boost your Tog while letting you keep some protection in your hand. Should you stick to Tog in your Sideboard I would suggest packing a few Pithing Needles since Tormod's Crypt really messes up the plan.

How good has Daze been for you? You already pack in 6 Pitch Counters, do you need more "free" counters? I would suggest cutting 4xDaze for 3xMana Leak/1xMisdirection.

Anyways I hope my post has given you something to think about, and thanks again for the memories.

OH before I forget there is also a new card called Trickbind. It is a Stifle that can't be responded to and it only costs 1 more colorless mana. The mana cost shouldn't be a problem if you're packing Moxen so check it out.
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« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2007, 06:18:33 pm »

I allways liked Fact or Fiction in Grow. It's even better than Gifts, because u have more Food for the Smiley.(especially if you play a lot of cantrips...)
To bad you can't get some drains. I believe Tog is not that good without Drains anyway. If I would build a Tog/Gro, I'd like to have either Intuition+AK, Gifts Ungiven/FoF, or something similar.
But why not try out something different? Wink I like the Deck, but I think if everyone plays Fish/Stax/Gifts then you should try to find a Deck that beats up all three. Grow doesn't seem like a good choise, to me, but I am often wrong, so please prove me I am again! Wink
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« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2007, 08:59:57 am »

I can't add Drains, since I don't own any and the guy who borrows me the Power sold his Drains recently...

Yawgmoth's Will might definately be worth the inclusion and Merchant Scrolls might also be worth testing, but what shall I take out for those? In my opinion Shadow of Doubt is the weakest card in the deck because of it's castingcost, but I might be wrong...

What would you take out for those cards?


umm... try this, I promise you'll like it.


// Mana 22
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt/Sol Ring - Your pick.
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Island


// Creatures 7
4 Quirion Dryad
2 Psychatog
1 Darksteel Colossus


// Spells 32
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Gush
1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Regrowth
1 Darkblast
2 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish
2 Gifts Ungiven
3 Daze
3 Duress
2 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm


// Sideboard 15
1 Darkblast
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Krosan Grip
1 Coffin Purge
1 Stifle
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Energy Flux
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