B/W Sliver Dance (Deck Idea)

[Darkenslight]

Hey!  I'm new to vintage and I had a combo idea: Hivestone + Basal Sliver + 2 Nether Traitors.

I expect to get yelled at a lot for this but this is a basic list:

Manabase

7 Solomoxen
4 Scrubland
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Flooded Strand
3 Bloodstained Mire

Creatures

4 Basal Sliver
4 Nether Traitor
4 Golgari Thug

Artifacts

4 Hivestone
1 Skullclamp
1 3sphere

Kill

3 Consume Spirit
2 Drain Life
1 Soul Burn

Other

1 DT
1 Necro
1 Yawg's Bargain
1 Yawgwin
4 Orim's Chant
4 Abeyance
1 Demonic Consultation
2 Death Wish

This is clearly untuned, and I don't know what I'd change at the moment.  Some of the card choices:

6 Win conditions - Yes, it's probably far too many, but there are a large number of outs against M. Mage.

2 Death Wish - Just in case I remove some win conditions with Consultation.

Skullclamp with only 12 men - This is just in case I need more drawing power.

3sphere - Because there are very few spells costing less than 3.


Any more suggestions?

[Rittler]

Well, since you are new to vintage, here a basic rule about Combos in Vintage:

A Combo is always crappy if it needs more than 2 cards and if those cards don't do well on their own...

If you now compare this rule with your Combo you'll see:

- Your combo consists of 4 cards
- Those 4 cards don't do good on their own


Don't misunderstand me, I don't want to scare you off Vintage, but I'm really sure that this combo will never ever be any good in any Vintage Deck. If you look at the most played and succesfull combo Decks you'll see, that every single card in the deck does well on it's own and it doesn't require lots of cards to hit the table at the same time to win.
This should just be a good advise, but keep on bringing new ideas and innovations to vintage...

[andrewpate]

Since the core combo is Standard-legal, why not try it out there?  It's far more likely to work in a format where the disruption is so much weaker.

Also... why the one Trinisphere?  What on earth does that do?  And on the subject, Death Wish is bad when all of your combo components are 4x maindeck.

[Darkenslight]

@Rittler: Well, that is technically true, but the deck has a backup plan of going completely aggro.  Yes, the creatures get stomped by Fish, but that's somehting I expect to happen.

@Andrewpate: There's a Demonic Consultation in the deck, and in the unlikely event that I remove all the cards for the kill, I'll need to bring one back.  Also, 3sphere affects me much less than it does my opponent; the only things that are affected are my protection spells, and even they're not affected much.  I'm trying this in TBC, though.  Much better in that, apparently.

[zeus-online]

Any reason for the 1 skullclamp? Either it shouldnt be there, or there should be 3 or 4 of them.
Also, try adding some duress's, you really need some heavy disruption or you're gonna get rolled by everything this format has to offer.

/Zeus

[Zarathustra]

@Rittler: Well, that is technically true, but the deck has a backup plan of going completely aggro.  Yes, the creatures get stomped by Fish, but that's somehting I expect to happen.

I don't mean to be rude, but how can this deck "go aggro"?  The aggro plan is much worse than Fish and you're clock is so slow combo will steamroll you.

@Andrewpate: There's a Demonic Consultation in the deck, and in the unlikely event that I remove all the cards for the kill, I'll need to bring one back.  Also, 3sphere affects me much less than it does my opponent; the only things that are affected are my protection spells, and even they're not affected much.  I'm trying this in TBC, though.  Much better in that, apparently.

If it's so unlikely, why would you need a subpar back-up plan?  Seems unnecessary to me.

3Sphere is good in a lock deck, like Stax...  where you can also cast it turn 1 nearly everytime you get it in your opening hand.  This deck is not Stax and I don't see you being able to cast with ease if you did get it in your opening hand.

There is a slew of other good combo decks.  Tendrils being one...  and well, the only one.  But there are many variants.  Check em out.

-DShell

[andrewpate]

Disagree.  Dragon is also a good combo deck, as is Bomberman.

[zeus-online]

Disagree.  Dragon is also a good combo deck, as is Bomberman.

Except that bomberman isn't a combo deck

Seriosly, there are:
Dragon
2-Land belcher
and alot of tendrils variants.

Thats IT, unless you count Sensei, sensei which is more combo control really.

/Zeus

[Darkenslight]

I don't mean to be rude, but how can this deck "go aggro"?  The aggro plan is much worse than Fish and you're clock is so slow combo will steamroll you.

*snip*

3Sphere is good in a lock deck, like Stax...  where you can also cast it turn 1 nearly everytime you get it in your opening hand.  This deck is not Stax and I don't see you being able to cast with ease if you did get it in your opening hand.

There is a slew of other good combo decks.  Tendrils being one...  and well, the only one.  But there are many variants.  Check em out.

-DShell

1) I know that the aggro-plan is piss poor, but the option is, and I stress this, still there.
2) No offense, but If I wanted Tendrils, then I'd pick up Long.  But I don't.  Now please, if you have any suggestions, then I would greatly appreciate this; otherwise, please leave this alone.

[netherspirit]

While I don't really think this could work brilliantly, I'm not going to discourage you from trying to make this work as I myself am always building decks like this. And to be honest... Sometimes they do work.

Personally, I think you should cut Skullclamp, 3Sphere, Golgari Thug, Death Wish and Demonic Consultation.

4 Duress is pretty much compulsory; it's black's best disruption spell! Then I would try Night's Whisper, Dark Ritual, Yawgmoth's Will, maybe Grim Tutor and Hymn to Tourach. You could also probably cut one of each of your combo pieces except Nether Traitor.

Well, that's just what I have to say on it. Good luck!!!

  netherspirit

[Darkenslight]

While I don't really think this could work brilliantly, I'm not going to discourage you from trying to make this work as I myself am always building decks like this. And to be honest... Sometimes they do work.

Personally, I think you should cut Skullclamp, 3Sphere, Consume Spirit, Drain Life, Soul Burn, Death Wish and Demonic Consultation; giving you 11 free slots.

4 Duress is pretty much compulsory; it's black's best disruption spell! Then I would try Night's Whisper, Dark Ritual, Yawgmoth's Will, maybe Grim Tutor and Hymn to Tourach. You could also probably cut one of each of your combo pieces except Nether Traitor.

Well, that's just what I have to say on it. Good luck!!!

  netherspirit

Thank you very much, but without the Consumes etc.  I can't actually win.  I do see where you're going with that though...

So at a guess, these are the revisions:

-1 Clamp
-1 3sphere
-2 Death Wish
-1 Demonic Consultation
-1 Soul Burn
-1 Drain Life
-1 Hivestone
-1 Basal Sliver
+4 Duress
+5 Random

[netherspirit]

While I don't really think this could work brilliantly, I'm not going to discourage you from trying to make this work as I myself am always building decks like this. And to be honest... Sometimes they do work.

Personally, I think you should cut Skullclamp, 3Sphere, Consume Spirit, Drain Life, Soul Burn, Death Wish and Demonic Consultation; giving you 11 free slots.

4 Duress is pretty much compulsory; it's black's best disruption spell! Then I would try Night's Whisper, Dark Ritual, Yawgmoth's Will, maybe Grim Tutor and Hymn to Tourach. You could also probably cut one of each of your combo pieces except Nether Traitor.

Well, that's just what I have to say on it. Good luck!!!

  netherspirit

Thank you very much, but without the Consumes etc.  I can't actually win.  I do see where you're going with that though...

So at a guess, these are the revisions:

-1 Clamp
-1 3sphere
-2 Death Wish
-1 Demonic Consultation
-1 Soul Burn
-1 Drain Life
-1 Hivestone
-1 Basal Sliver
+4 Duress
+5 Random

Yeah, I just realised about the consumes, my bad! I've edited my post from before so you might wanna reread what I posted. Hope I've helped though!

[Darkenslight]

@Netherspirit: Thanks, but why the Thugs?  They're useful for getting back Basal Slivers, and also become a fun enabler.

[netherspirit]

They're OK, but I don't think they're powerful enough to warrant a 4-of. Maybe cut 2. You could replace them with Grim Tutors and the like to get your combo pieces more reliably; still, just play around with them and find the combination that works for you!!

[andrewpate]

Disagree.  Dragon is also a good combo deck, as is Bomberman.

Except that bomberman isn't a combo deck

I would recommend you check out Sextiger's tournament report here or Chris Marchand's (truck373) posts in this thread on SCG.  It may help you in your testing to know that this deck can use two of its cards together to make infinite mana!  Honestly, the semantic point that Mana Drains preclude combo categorization is not terribly significant.  Most Bomberman lists run 8 counterspells to Pitch Long's 6.  I don't think the 2 extra permission slots mean you're not a combo deck.  When people call Bomberman a control deck, they are really just giving play advice and saying not to take risks to combo out early.

@netherspirit
I agree fully.  The Thugs are not really very essential, as they are an awkward Regrowth effect.  Grim Tutors would be much better, as they would also be much better than the Death Wishes being (rightfully) cut.  I also agree with going down to 3 Hivestone, and I would suggest maybe even down to 2.  It does nothing at all except let you go off.  It should be the last piece for which you tutor, at least in general.  You certainly never want to see 2 unless one is destroyed.

Is white really the best support color?  I understand that what it does is protect the combo by giving you access to Orim's Chant and Abeyance, but what about green?  It would give you Xantid Swarm to accomplish the same thing, as well as the additional (unrestricted!) power of Wordly Tutor, which gets all of your combo, including the Swarm, except Hivestone.  You could even include Living Wish and go down to 3 copies maindeck of each of your components.  This would be similar to the setup of the old Cephalid Life decks in Extended, which ran 3 Living Wish and 4 Worldly Tutor (in addition to 4 Vampiric Tutor, but you have things like Demonic Tutor and Necropotence).  You should abuse the fact that this is a creature-based combo and creatures are, on the whole, easier to fetch than other types of cards.

[zeus-online]

Disagree.  Dragon is also a good combo deck, as is Bomberman.

Except that bomberman isn't a combo deck

I would recommend you check out Sextiger's tournament report here or Chris Marchand's (truck373) posts in this thread on SCG.  It may help you in your testing to know that this deck can use two of its cards together to make infinite mana!  Honestly, the semantic point that Mana Drains preclude combo categorization is not terribly significant.  Most Bomberman lists run 8 counterspells to Pitch Long's 6.  I don't think the 2 extra permission slots mean you're not a combo deck.  When people call Bomberman a control deck, they are really just giving play advice and saying not to take risks to combo out early.

I'm actually slightly offended that you assume that i do not know how bomberman works, i know perfectly well about the infinite mana combo, and cycling the spellbombs etc. etc.
This does NOT make bomberman a combo deck, its a control deck with a combo finish, just like gifts (and argueable, control-slaver)

In type 1 a deck is not necessarily defined by how it kills, but how it gets there.

/Zeus

[Darkenslight]

Is white really the best support color?  I understand that what it does is protect the combo by giving you access to Orim's Chant and Abeyance, but what about green?  It would give you Xantid Swarm to accomplish the same thing, as well as the additional (unrestricted!) power of Wordly Tutor, which gets all of your combo, including the Swarm, except Hivestone.  You could even include Living Wish and go down to 3 copies maindeck of each of your components.  This would be similar to the setup of the old Cephalid Life decks in Extended, which ran 3 Living Wish and 4 Worldly Tutor (in addition to 4 Vampiric Tutor, but you have things like Demonic Tutor and Necropotence).  You should abuse the fact that this is a creature-based combo and creatures are, on the whole, easier to fetch than other types of cards.

It's probably not, but it gives me better protection than the B/G one, however, it might be possible to side into the B/G version with the following Sideboard:

3 Xantid Swarm
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
4 Worldly Tutor.

[zeus-online]

Xantid swarm probably isn't the best piece of disruption for this deck....you want to slow them down aswell, since there's a good chance that they're actually faster then you.

/Zeus

[netherspirit]

If you try adding Green, Root Maze could be awesome disruption.

[Zarathustra]

1) I know that the aggro-plan is piss poor, but the option is, and I stress this, still there.
2) No offense, but If I wanted Tendrils, then I'd pick up Long.  But I don't.  Now please, if you have any suggestions, then I would greatly appreciate this; otherwise, please leave this alone.

I like good strategies, not 'piss poor' ones.  Why would you even consider something that's not good?

Dude, you want suggestions?  I'm sorry, but this deck is just not competitive.  This is a FOUR card combo.  That's just bad.  You can't really remodel this deck and make it competitive.  You honestly need to change decks to something that actually is good.

-DShell

[Darkenslight]

Dude, you want suggestions?  I'm sorry, but this deck is just not competitive.  This is a FOUR card combo.  That's just bad.  You can't really remodel this deck and make it competitive.  You honestly need to change decks to something that actually is good.

-DShell

Look, if you don't have any suggestions to make, I highly recommend that you butt out, OK?  I asked you reasonably politely if you had any suggestions for improving the deck.  At no point did I say that this was good; I simply asked if it could be made better.

Other posters have made positive contributions to the discussion, for example, suggesting that I play Green for Worldly Tutors instead of White; you have done nothing but say 'play Tendrils.'  I told you before that I didn't want to play Tendrils.  You don't like that?  Then the answer is simple; the door's that way.  *Points to thread exit.*

This type of response has a real danger of starting a flame war. Keep it civil.
-Godder

[netherspirit]

@Zarathustra: While you may not think the deck has potential, it just seems as though you're trying to discourage Darkenslight from at least attempting the deck. Everyone has to start somewhere, and the only way to improve at building decks is to keep trying. Please don't take this as flame because it's really not meant to be; but please, if you make suggestions about what cards to change instead of just saying scrap the idea, hopefully Darkenslight will learn more about the game and could even end up with a half decent deck... Even if it is only a casual one.

[Zarathustra]

Ok then...  This deck has to go one of two ways.  One thing it can do is cut down on it's combo pieces.  As is, you have dead pieces, until you have all 4.

I have no idea what to do with this pile of cards so, I suggest, Meandeck Ichorid.  It's aggro, it's sort of combo.  Check it out.

-DShell

You've already made this point in various different ways. It would be best for everyone concerned if you left this thread alone from now on.
-Godder

[Darkenslight]

So, if I took out one each of Hivestone and Basal Sliver and replaced them with Grims, then added two more Grims, I'd have 3 slots remaining.  Is there anything else that I can do, for example, 3 Leyline of the Void?

[netherspirit]

Leyline is more of a sideboard card. You may want to add more discard cards; as this deck is most likely going to be quite slow it'll need to be able to slow the opponent down too, so things such as Hymn to Tourach, Cabal Therapy (maybe), Mind Twist and possibly Castigate would all be worth trying.

[Darkenslight]

I think I'll run 3 Therapies, due to the double usage; it begins the mana engine, and it also removes opposing protection from their hand.

[Godder]

In future, if anyone has a problem with another user's posts, report the post (there's a link at the bottom right of each post) or PM a Moderator - that's what we're here for. Don't tell the user to butt out, or make other, similar inflammatory remarks, statements or suggestions.

[andrewpate]

I still think that it would be better to cut Grim Tutors and go green for Wordly Tutor.  Something like 4 Worldly Tutor, 1 Demonic Tutor, 1 Vampiric Tutor, 1 Imperial Seal, 1 Demonic Consultation, and of course Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain.  I am thinking about the U/W Fish matchup in particular, in which the 3 life from a Grim Tutor can be significant and also in which Swords to Plowshares makes creature-based combos particularly fragile.  An unrestricted, 1-mana, instant speed tutor is well worth the card disadvantage in this situation.  With the added stability provided by this tutor package, I think that Xantid Swarm's disruption would be sufficient to handle permission (especially since you can, as I mentioned earlier, Worldly for the Swarm itself).  With this package, you could also sideboard silver bullet creatures such as Loaming Shaman or Withered Wretch.  If needed, splash a bit of white with a Scrubland or two, which would also let you sideboard Children of Korlis.

I strongly feel that this is the superior plan.