Black Aggro Post Planar Chaos

[freakish777]

For those of you that don't follow the rumors, it's been claimed for some time that punisher spells are back in Planar Chaos (but in black).

Recently this card image came up:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37971&d=1167263542

Assuming it's real, I'm under the impression that a mono-black aggro deck using Bad Moon, efficient creatures and this card could be fairly fast (probably not as brutally fast as Boros/Gruul, but fast enough to get the job down against control and the slower combo hands) as well as beefier than most other aggro decks thanks to Bad Moon and creatures with "drawbacks."

Plagued Rusalka and Mindlash Sliver (?) provide 1-drops.
Bad Moon, the Jump Knight (Coldsnap), Withered Wretch, etc (there's a ton here) provide 2 drops
Psychotic Episode (?) and Skulking Knight + Haakon (provided you want a Knight sub-theme and the ability to play through creature destruction with Haakon) could provide 3 drops.
Plague Sliver (as a 2 of) and Temporal Extortion could be the top of the curve.

Thoughts on this being good enough for Standard?  This card really says "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" to me especially at 4 mana.  If you're at 12 and I have 6 power worth of creatures on the board, this wins against a non counterspell hand.  Against a counterspell hand, it's a must counter threat that can't be answered with Wrath/Condemn/Mortify/etc.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

Bob, Stromgald Crusader, Tendrils Of Corruption, Rusalka, Hyppie, Bad Moon, Stupor and other discard makes it sound not so bad.

[Roxas]

As mentioned in the other thread...

Take what you said, but replace Temporal Extortion with Browbeat and all the black cards with red cards, and the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" claim looks all too familiar. Like Browbeat, while both effects are fairly decent for the cost (though I'd contest doing what will usually be 5-6 damage for BBBB probably isn't the best thing in the world), one of the following will almost always be the case:

1) You were almost certainly going to win anyway.
2) One of the two effects is completely irrelevant, and chosen by the other player.
3) The spell doesn't even resolve because it's a fairly expensive sorcery.

While I'm sure many people will attempt this card, I'd say that it will mostly end up being a Browbeat-like "scrub trap." Who knows, perhaps this will change once Ravnica block rotates out and mono-colored decks end up being a reasonable idea again.

[freakish777]

Browbeat is entirely different however.  Generally speaking, its 5 damage until the person is in the 8 life area and then it's 3 cards, the portion of the game state that is important here is smaller in comparison to all the portions that have to be taken into account for Extortion.

Browbeat:
5 damage or 3 cards.

Extortion:
Half your life rounded up (for the sake of argument we could assume that this is always going to be 6) or give your opponent another untap, draw, main and attack?

In Standard a 4cc Time Walk would likely be more powerful than a 3cc sorcery-speed Ancestral Recall.  Assuming the only time Extortion resolves is when it would read: "6 Damage to target opponent" it would be a decent card.  Monoblack currently has some undercosted creatures and Bad Moon to support a spell at the top of it's curve that you wouldn't otherwise run in an attempt to end the game on the spot instead of having to grind the game out and open up possibilities for a comeback.  Does Red currently in Standard have enough other amazing Burn Spells to make Browbeat good (when you're playing with great cards you have some slack with the rest of your card selections, would you really play with Tangle Wire in Vintage if you didn't have Moxen + Workshop, good cards make the rest of the cards in the deck look better, even if they're complete trash on their own)?

To be honest I wouldn't be considering this card if Bad Moon weren't recently reprinted.  The card would only work in a very aggressive deck that would have to be monoblack.  Assuming it "never resolves" against a control deck, so what?  You've just given your opponent a must counter that isn't a creature.  If they untap and Wrath, that's one more creature you resolve after Wrath.  Additionally I think against control decks you should probably have the upper hand barring Tron putting 2 Triskelavus into play (and your creatures shouldn't have 1 toughness at this point anyways), or getting Martyr recursion (which shouldn't happen if you're running Withered Wretch).  Against aggro and combo decks it helps shift the tempo in your favor if they had a faster start.  Let's assume DragonStorm is the combo deck of choice, and they have the turn 5.  Assuming you can get to 4 land, you should have their turn 5 kill covered. 

I think the real test here is whether or not the monoblack aggro deck can be tuned to take down BDW on a 60% or better margin.  If that's possible, then I think the deck is definitely worth building.

[wraith985]

So you expect to go t1 guy, t2 guy, t3 guy, t4 time walk, and not be disrupted in the meantime? You can't even do that because you need to spend one of t2 or t3 playing a Bad Moon to pump your guys because you aren't actually guaranteed a free turn. God forbid they Leak your Bad Moon or your 2/3-drop critter. Not to mention that mono-black has absolutely no good reach spells, aside from Soul Spike. So what if he pays half his life if he's going to Wrath next turn? He could be at 1 with one counter in hand and feel perfectly safe because mono-black can't touch him. Realistically, you're looking at the following 'nut' draw:

T1: Swamp, Plagued Rusalka
T2: Swamp, 2-power 2-drop (Confidant, Jump Knight, etc.); swing for 1 (19)
T3: Swamp, Hypnotic Specter, swing for 3 (16)
T4: Swamp, Swing for 5 (11), play Temporal Distortion.
   a: You do not get your extra turn. Opponent is at 5, and takes his turn as normal.
   b: You get your extra turn. Opponent is at 11, and you attack him down to 6, unless you have Bad Moon.

Compare this to Boros' nut draw:
T1: Foundry, Lions
T2: Foundry, Lions, Rusalka, attack for 2 (18)
T3: Attack for 5 (13), Foundry, Char EOT (9)
T4: Attack for 5 (4), Char or Helix+Rusalka activations (0)

This card is terrible for the same reason that Browbeat is terrible - one mode is completely irrelevant pretty much all the time. Unless you get your opponent to 1 with this thing in your hand, and then proceed to resolve it, he always has a choice - and if you're banking on getting your opponent to 1 life, or halving his life from 2 to 1, then I question why you're not wrecking his hand and his ability to respond instead of trying to take an irrelevant extra turn. If you have your opponent in those dire straits, then he's not going to care about going from 2 to 1, or 3 to 1, or whatever - he's dead next turn anyway, and you're never going to get your Time Walk. The fact of the matter is that most of the time, it's going to go to the face as a burn spell, and unlike red decks, you can't take advantage of that choice by pointing more cheap burn at your opponent's face, nor can you even kill your opponent with that extra turn unless you draw a miracle hand with four Swamp, 1-drop, 2-drop, 3-drop, Distortion, Bad Moon. I don't think I have to tell you what happens if, god forbid, they stall you long enough to Wrath or (even worse) Wildfire - and unlike Boros, when that happens, you pack it in, because you can't win by going over the top, and odds are you're not going to get very much else to stick around.

[asi]

T1: Swamp, Plagued Rusalka
T2: Swamp, 2-power 2-drop (Confidant, Jump Knight, etc.); swing for 1 (19)
T3: Swamp, Hypnotic Specter, swing for 3 (16)
T4: Swamp, Swing for 5 (11), play Temporal Distortion.
   a: You do not get your extra turn. Opponent is at 5, and takes his turn as normal.
   b: You get your extra turn. Opponent is at 11, and you attack him down to 6, unless you have Bad Moon.

Why would you attack first, then play the Walk? If you play Walk first, he'll be at 3 when he pays life.

[freakish777]

I've already stated that the deck will be slower in terms of nut draws and consistency then BDW, but more threat heavy.  The idea is to have essentially more threats then they (control decks) can realistically handle as well as 3-4 extremely good support spells (Bad Moon and Temporal Extortion being 2).  Add in the fact that Haakon can come back and bring Jump & Skulking Knights with him, and Wrath becomes far less "haha, nice creatures n00b!" and more "dammit, I have to Wrath to buy some time." 

If my opponent Cancels or Mana Leaks Temporal Extortion, then great!  Saying "dude it'll be hilarious when your opponent Mana Leaks card X, so that card is a bad idea" is the weakest argument in the history of man.  Good cards are inevitably going to get countered.  Cards your deck places a lot of emphasis on are eventually going to get countered.  The fact that my opponent realizes they can't let the card resolve is an argument for inclusion not exclusion in deckbuilding.

If you want "ideal" hands against the goldfish, it would look like:

T1: Rusalka
T2: 2 power beater (1)
T3: 3 power beater (Skulking Knight/Tresspasser il-Vec/2 drop + 1 drop) (4)
T4: Extortion 1st mainphase (they let it resolve) (10)
T5: Extortion 1st mainphase (screwed either way) (16)
T6: (22)

T4: Extortion 1st mainphase (they pay half life rounded up) (12) + attack (18)
T5: Attack (24)

Again, this deck essentially would be designed to out aggro other aggro decks with fatter creatures, be less affected by Wrath (due to higher threat density and Haakon tricks), and have a SB full of discard to smooth it's game out against combo.  Clearly we aren't racing combo most games, though it is possible if they get a slow hand.  Again, the only question in my mind is whether or not it can post a positive match up against Boros.  If it can achieve that, the rest should fall into place.

[oneofchaos]

Oh, this will get flamed down...but if monoblack gains popularity maybe running soul spike?

[49 Cents]

Oh, this will get flamed down...but if monoblack gains popularity maybe running soul spike?

Actually, Soul Spike is not a bad card. Free removal AND lifegain is always good, especially when you can afford it.

[freakish777]

Oh, this will get flamed down...but if monoblack gains popularity maybe running soul spike?

I'm going to go with no for the fact that I think most people that would want to run this deck will also be wanting to run Dark Confidant, that said it's something to keep in mind for the SB against opposing aggro decks that you'd want to side to Confidants out against (I mean I suppose you could SB the Confidants and run Soul Spikes main, but I don't think I'm that big of a fan of Soul Spike and I wouldn't want to run more than 2).

[Vegeta2711]

I've already stated that the deck will be slower in terms of nut draws and consistency then BDW, but more threat heavy.  The idea is to have essentially more threats then they (control decks) can realistically handle as well as 3-4 extremely good support spells (Bad Moon and Temporal Extortion being 2).  Add in the fact that Haakon can come back and bring Jump & Skulking Knights with him, and Wrath becomes far less "haha, nice creatures n00b!" and more "dammit, I have to Wrath to buy some time."

Except black doesn't HAVE any threats control can't realistically handle easily. Nearly every single creature is tiny and has no relevant abilities. Bad Moon is also not a good support card against control, unless you know for a fact they'll be relying on damage based ways to kill creatures. Considering there will be 2 WoG effects, Condemn, Faith's Fetters and Repeal  in the environment; that isn't something I'd be loving to rely on versus control.

Not to mention all they have to really do is still you until they can play their trump. There isn't a need for current control decks to realistically handle all of your threats, merely the first 2 or 3.

If my opponent Cancels or Mana Leaks Temporal Extortion, then great!

Wait wait, you like giving your opponents real time walks? The opponent paying 1U and a card for nullifying an entire turn of yours seems pretty good in trade value.

[OfficeShredder]

Wait wait, you like giving your opponents real time walks? The opponent paying 1U and a card for nullifying an entire turn of yours seems pretty good in trade value.

Didn't he get to attack?  That doesn't seem like a complete waste of a turn, especially since a lot of spells would get leaked at that point anyway

[freakish777]

Time Walk would actually give them a draw step, as well.

I'd much rather it was Leaked then Remanded.  Clearly if you're playing against a control player, you're going to attempt to read for a counter.  If you think they have Remand, then you wouldn't want to be walking into it, but if it's Leak, that means 1 less counter for them to pre-emptively answer your threat after they Wrath/Damn the board (if they do so).

As far as black not having threats that control needs to worry about (not that they can't be dealt with), I think you're full of it:

Dark Confidant
Hypnotic Specter
Stupor
Psychotic Episode

all seem decent.  As far as trump cards go, it's harder to trump a 4/4 3cc creature and a 3/2 2cc creature that pumps and flys that come back from Mortify/Wrath/Damn/most everything but Fetters & Condemn. 

As far as the "Bad Moon is bad against control" argument goes, there's sideboards for bringing out cards that are bad in a particular match in bringing in cards that are good in it (discard).

[Vegeta2711]

Time Walk would actually give them a draw step, as well.

Point of example, etc.I assumed people would understand general point  blah blah,  I under-estimate people's deductive reasoning once again, yadda yadda.

The point was BBBB spells aren't particularly good because they in practical terms your sacrificing any 2nd turn play until you have at least 6 lands in play and is cast late enough that tapping out for it isn't a particularly great plan.

Fine. Confidant is good against everything as long as it lives. Hyppie is alright, although Tron decks aren't going to lose to him all that often.

Psychotic Episode and Stupor? Ok you're the one reaching here. Persecute or Castiagate I would accept as a valid threats against control, but STUPOR? Please. Show me the Worlds results where Stupor was played. :/

As far as trump cards go, it's harder to trump a 4/4 3cc creature and a 3/2 2cc creature that pumps and flys that come back from Mortify/Wrath/Damn/most everything but Fetters & Condemn.

A trump. As in something that wins you the game when you play it. Bogardan Hellkite, Demonfire, Glare and the Martyr engine are all trumps. Small creatures aren't.

Although you lost me with the 3/2 2cc creature remark. Which guy is this? Hakkon is a 3/3 for 3 and doesn't pump. In fact searching on datatog, I can't find anything that fits the criteria you listed.

The same with a 4/4 3cc guy. Jotun Grunt obviously fits the 4/4 part, but he's 2cc and white.

[andrewpate]

He probably meant Jump Knight + Bad Moon.

[Vegeta2711]

He probably meant Jump Knight + Bad Moon.

I cop to not even thinking about that, the way it was phrased totally threw me off because there was no transition.

[Roxas]

Another issue with Temporal Extortion is that it is not a threat unless you have other threats on the table. If your other threats have been dealt with, Temporal Extortion is not going to get you back in the game. If you do have threats, well, you're fine aren't you? In this respect, this card is actually even worse than Browbeat. I hear running cards that are only good when you're winning isn't the best idea.

Also, in agreement with Veg, your list of "threats" available to black is not only incomplete, but wrong; Confidant is the only threatening there, as Specter is far too slow to ever do anything and Stupor and Episode are just bad.

Whatever, go ahead and play your neo-Browbeat. I'll just Dragonstorm for lethal, animate Akroma, or burn all of your guys and just not care about either effect. Seriously, why not just splash red for Demonfire instead?

[freakish777]

As far as Martyr recursion and reanimating Akroma go, Wretch is in Standard....

3cc 4/4 is Haakon (obv with Bad Moon out)
2cc 3/2 is Jump Knight (again)

Persecute would actually be downright awful in this deck.  If I'm an aggro deck (that attempts to play Aggro Control once we go to boards) why would I want a 4cc spell after I've dropped my guys on the board.

Your list of Trump cards is pretty bad:

Demonfire (legitimately can win the game by itself, likeliness of this happening before turn 8?  Not really, still the best card on your list though).

Bogardan Hellkite (assuming it's hardcast) may not take down more than 1 creature if Bad Moon is out, if not it could be Wrath sure.  It still doesn't win the game on the spot.  If my beats have worked them into the 5-9 life range and I still have a threat in play and another in hand they may not be able to swing immediately.  If it's being reanimated, they have to deal with Wretch first (entirely possible, but in the meantime I might get some tempo while they're unable to dump it into the bin, if it is be reanimated, then we aren't really talking about control anymore, we're talking about combo or combo-control).  If it's being Dragonstormed into play (again combo not control), our options are race or board in discard.

Glare (assuming they've somehow amassed creatures) would be bad, yes.  I'm willing to let that match fall on its face at the moment, it's an acceptable loss (and not something I'm terribly concerned with as it's not currently seeing tons of play).

I've already address the Martyr recursion scenario.



@Roxas's argument of it being Win-More.  I'd argue that there's game-states in which you can be losing, topdeck it and have it allow you to win, given the fact that there is are cut-offs to how badly you can be losing (just like every card), just that there are less losing positions it can get you out of in comparison to something like Wrath.

[Vegeta2711]

Those trump cards are bad?  All of the best decks in the environment, save maybe the Dranulau deck and Boros plays one of those cards. The only other good deck's trump I didn't mention was Tron's, because it relies more on overwhelming card advantage and Teferi.

assuming they've somehow amassed creatures)

Yeah, because G/W decks would SOMEHOW be able to make creatures. Itr's not like they run 24-30 creatures or anything, nor is it their main game-plan.

Whatever, apparently this deck without a list has an answer to everything. I await the day when this deck begins dominating the MODO Premier Events when Planar Chaos is released.

If I'm an aggro deck (that attempts to play Aggro Control once we go to boards) why would I want a 4cc spell after I've dropped my guys on the board.

Oh and FYI:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds06/stdecks
Check Andersen and McDaniels list for examples of my Persecute point. Apparently those aggro decks found a reason to want a 4cc spell after they've dropped their men. *shrug*

[Darkenslight]

Also note the possible 'punisher' counterspell in Black from mtgsalvation:

Dash Hopes
Instant (Common)
When you play Dash Hopes, any player may pay 5 life. If a player does, counter Dash Hopes.
Counter target spell.

[freakish777]

Those trump cards are bad? 

 

On the contrary, I meant they are likely to be bad trump cards for this particular match up.  Demonfire is a great card.  The problem lies in that fact that if it's "trumping" the entire deck by itself, essentially x>15 (and that assumes some Confidant damage on my part) which I don't see happening before turn 8.  8 turns give you time to run your first wave of creatures into your opponent, get them Wrath'd/double Clasm'd, and lay the second wave.  The problem is you're assuming that control decks "just win" because they have a trump card in their deck.

Hellkite coming down on turn 4 off the Tron and a Signet would be incredibly scary for any aggro deck, the problem is that requires them to have drawn the Tron and the Hellkite, and in this particular match the Hellkite isn't just going "1 at Lions, 1 at Ication Javelineers, 1 at Magus of the Scroll, 2 at your face, untap swing for 5" for the amazing tempo swing into attempting to hang on against the ensuing burn.  The deck will have an semi-out in the form of Bad Moon making it harder for the Hellkite to actually be Wrath, and if the aggro deck has 2 more creatures to drop with 1 surviving the Hellkite drop, then it's a more "fair fight" as opposed to simply Hellkite reading "oops I win" as you seem to think it does.  I will claim that this deck will have some outs, I will not claim that these outs are going to be "just win," there's very few matches in any format of Magic where one deck just wins and there's absolutely nothing the other deck can do (I'm talking 15/85 match-ups here, in comparison with all possibly match-ups).

Again, Glare would in fact be bad.  The "assuming they amassed creatures" statement was less about the number of creatures they run (as I'm planning on something like 24 creatures for this build) and more about whether they draw their Vhitu-Ghazi/Guildmage or not.  I'm less afraid of Glare if it's not accompanied by a token producer because then there's still a chance to out creature them and hopefully get in enough times before they find their token generator.  As I said, I imagine this match-up will actually be awful, but I'm less concerned with it.

Again Answers to Everything =/= Dominant Deck.