[Premium Article] Crushing Vintage Without Power Nine: Manaless Ichorid

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=296918

The printing of Dread Return fundamentally changed the Ichorid equation by giving the deck a consistent clock.   This innovation triggered a chain reaction of design changes that makes post-Time Spiral Ichorid a fundamentally different deck than the one that I had helped innovate nearly a year ago this time.

In this article, I begin to look at one particular design variant of Ichorid: The Manaless Ichorid version and examine the various card options at stake.   I also provide a a simple five step guide on how to pilot the deck.   

[desolutionist]

This was a good article.  It is nice to see that you've finally deviated from the Gifts tournament reports and wrote some new material. (About a damn good deck)

[Smmenen]

What... my Year in Review and Humor articles don't count as non-Gifts articles? 

Well, I hope you don't get bored of a month's worth of Ichorid articles

[BoomChild]

I'm very glad that Ichorid has been revived in sorts.  I hope that this version doesn't get hated out of the industry as the original deck has most of the time.  Ichorid seems to be the equivilant of Affininty in extended.  You don't really plan for it but you don't want to be the guy that loses to it either.  Great article.  I am going to test this thing out.

[desolutionist]

I'm very glad that Ichorid has been revived in sorts.  I hope that this version doesn't get hated out of the industry as the original deck has most of the time.  Ichorid seems to be the equivilant of Affininty in extended.  You don't really plan for it but you don't want to be the guy that loses to it either.  Great article.  I am going to test this thing out.

That is a trend in most formats recently.  There are so many viable decks that is impossible to adequately prepare for all of them.  Ichorid just may be the best metagame call right now because it is the least expected, has consistently good game against almost every deck, and is virtually unaffected by modern hate directed toward Pitch Long.  Ignoring ridiculously broken Black Lotus hands, the only deck that feasibly has a faster clock is Long.  With Ichorid's proactive protection and disruption spells (Unmask and Therapy), the clock is relatively faster than it really is, narrowing the window of opportunity to do anything about the horde of 3/1s and inevitable Sutured Ghoul.

[BoomChild]

I agree completely.  I played Meandeck Ichie in three different tournaments and got a good feel for it but it always felt that there was nothing that I could do about my opponent's answers if they were able to hit.  So I stopped playing it cause it was getting hated out.  The only inclination I have to not playing this deck is the sadness that is Tormod's crytp.  I've think that almost every sideboard in my area has at least 2 crypts in it becuase you don't want to lose to ichorid.

[dicemanx]

Most of the criticisms that people have for WGD are actually perfectly applicable to this deck - it just struggles with hate because of its inability to run effective maindeck or SB answers. Your path to victory lies with more with the numbers as opposed to playskill, but even if the probabilities are in Ichorid's favor, that still won't be enough for consistent t8 performances.

I think this deck will be played, and might even be favored by weaker players to bridge skill gaps and reduce matches to what are essentially coin flips (something that prompted Eric Becker's interesting charge about the deck in an earlier thread). I don't see the stroinger players playing this thing though - what strong player enjoys putting himself at such a mercy of his and his opponent's draws? This deck is "binary" to the extreme, similar to MEandeckSX which few if any dare to play now.

[Smmenen]

 I would contest those assumptions, and will do so in future articles rather than in this thread. 

[desolutionist]

Most of the criticisms that people have for WGD are actually perfectly applicable to this deck - it just struggles with hate because of its inability to run effective maindeck or SB answers.

I don't agree.  Because Tormod's Crypt is slightly trivial against Ichorid, there are almost no commonly used answers in the MD or SB of most decks.  Contrarily, Dragon is significantly impacted by Tormod's Crypt, Duress, and universal bounce spells.

This deck is "binary" to the extreme, similar to MEandeckSX which few if any dare to play now.

It isn't even comparable to SX because Ichorid isn't nearly as effected by "the glue of modern vintage", Force of Will, and is much more dynamic because of Chalice, Strip, Unmask, and Therapy.  More importantly, the deck doesn't collapse on itself after a mulligan because it only needs one card to function; the deck is built to accommodate this.

[dicemanx]

This deck is "binary" to the extreme, similar to MEandeckSX which few if any dare to play now.

It isn't even comparable to SX because Ichorid isn't nearly as effected by "the glue of modern vintage", Force of Will, and is much more dynamic because of Chalice, Strip, Unmask, and Therapy.  More importantly, the deck doesn't collapse on itself after a mulligan because it only needs one card to function; the deck is built to accommodate this.

Of course its comparable to MSX in terms of both being "binary" archetypes. Comparable doesn't mean identical, so citing some detail such as Ichorid being less affected by FoW (not a true statement by the way) or having the ability to proactively disrupt is missing the point.

[desolutionist]

Of course its comparable to MSX in terms of both being "binary" archetypes. Comparable doesn't mean identical, so citing some detail such as Ichorid being less affected by FoW (not a true statement by the way) or having the ability to proactively disrupt is missing the point.

If it is defined as being binary, it can't be to such a degree that it shares similar faults with SX.  "... MEandeckSX which few if any dare to play now" has absolutely no relevance.

[dicemanx]

If it is defined as being binary, it can't be to such a degree that it shares similar faults with SX.

You're not exactly making sense. I categorize Ichorid and MeandeckSX as being far on the binary side of the scale. While Ichorid might have disruption and have diminished susceptibilities to certain cards, it is still very much at the mercy of its opening 7 and the opponent's opening 7 even though the odds are probably in its favor. That is a defining characteristic of a binary archetype.

I go on to say that MSX isn't played because of that binary nature, and make that statement because I envision manaless Ichorid suffering the same fate (and you call such a statement as "absolutely" irrelevant?). The deck is just too inflexible and doesn't have enough resources to be able to fight through hate consistently enough when it does hit the table.

[Machinus]

I know this is a risky topic, but where was this deck developed?

[diopter]

I know this is a risky topic, but where was this deck developed?

meadbert presented the concept on the SCG forums. There is a lot of intelligent discussion about the deck over on SCG.

[ErkBek]

Steve, I'm kinda disappointed in your list.  No new tech and you even run Maze of Ith. Which is the most un-Steve like thing to do. Your reasoning behind this is it gives you a good answer to an early tinker DSC, but you out of anyone I would expect to not to find this as an answer, because you have 2 perfectly other good ways of beating an early DSC hand either you prevent it from coming down via discard spells or chalice or else you simply race it. What happened to the guy that won with Desire, ESG, and Time Walks vs. extract and Hide/Seeks?

I think you also simplified the cabal therapies a little too much. There is no reason to play them that aggressively naming counterspells. IMO you should be naming the cards that will kill you. I'm guessing this isn't the way you really should (and actually) play the deck.

One thing I'd like to see in an upcoming article is why the sutured ghoul combo of 2 Dragon Breath, 2 ghoul, and 2 Dread Return is better than just running 3 Dread Return and 3 Titans or something similar. Running Titans over ghouls lets you play your discard spells more conservatively naming business instead of counterspells since you don't have to go all in with the ghoul combo. Titan is also much better vs. DSC as he lets you attack with your ichorids and then gives you a creature to animate that can block DSC to absorb 10 of its 11 damage, meanwhile destroying all of your opponents lands (something that a animated troll couldn't do).

[Neonico]

AM i the only one to think that yosei is the best choice beside GGT to animate in a drain environnement ? As kobefan noticed, the interest of this deck is to be able, with his disruption, to avoid a win from your opponent while you get the 2/3 attack phase to win. Dread returning a yosei, with cabal therapy, countered or not, is the best way to avoid a drain or combo deck to win.
Also, with dread return, no need of anything else than a fat (something even like 7/7 is enough) GGT to deal with a colossus.
With all that in mind, i simply play 2 yosei and 2 dread return, wich is enough and got some more slots to introduce things like ashen gouls to be more aggressive or darkblast to be more defensive.

[meadbert]

I tried Yosei for a while and I loved him initially.  What I liked best about him was that he did not need Dragon's Breath so I could run more disruption.  After a couple of days of testing though I have decided that the only creatures I will consider will be ones with "comes into play" abilities rather than "leaves play" abilities.  The reason is you need an extra Therapy to to sacrifice your creature to gain the ability.

Without the extra Therapy Yosei becomes a mid sized beater.  Even with an extra Therapy you get to tap some permanents, but you have no board so if a Tormod's Crypt comes down you are screwed.

Another issue is fetch lands.  Yosei targets so an opponent can pop a fetch in response to the target a get a land out.  This can be a huge problem because now all he has to do is:
1:Vamp for Tormod's Crypt
2: Mystical for Demonic.  On his turn play another land, Demonic for Crypt and wipe your board.

Any of these are likely to result in a loss out of a game that you should have already won.

Symbiotic Wurm I view as the same as Yosei, except atleast when I sac Wurm I get 7 tokens to work with.

I find Sundering Titan to be more interesting since he atleast has a comes into play ability.  The problem is Titan does not have Trample which is problematic versus aggro in general.  Also, he is weldable and removed by artifact hate.

You should never Therapy counter magic unless you are expecting to win that turn.

One synergistic issue that Steve skipped in the article was how good an Dread Returned Grave-Troll can be.  I get 14/14 ish Grave-Trolls all the time.

[benthetenor]

I tried Yosei for a while and I loved him initially.  What I liked best about him was that he did not need Dragon's Breath so I could run more disruption.  After a couple of days of testing though I have decided that the only creatures I will consider will be ones with "comes into play" abilities rather than "leaves play" abilities.  The reason is you need an extra Therapy to to sacrifice your creature to gain the ability.

Without the extra Therapy Yosei becomes a mid sized beater.  Even with an extra Therapy you get to tap some permanents, but you have no board so if a Tormod's Crypt comes down you are screwed.

Another issue is fetch lands.  Yosei targets so an opponent can pop a fetch in response to the target a get a land out.  This can be a huge problem because now all he has to do is:
1:Vamp for Tormod's Crypt
2: Mystical for Demonic.  On his turn play another land, Demonic for Crypt and wipe your board.

Any of these are likely to result in a loss out of a game that you should have already won.

Symbiotic Wurm I view as the same as Yosei, except atleast when I sac Wurm I get 7 tokens to work with.

I find Sundering Titan to be more interesting since he atleast has a comes into play ability.  The problem is Titan does not have Trample which is problematic versus aggro in general.  Also, he is weldable and removed by artifact hate.

You should never Therapy counter magic unless you are expecting to win that turn.

One synergistic issue that Steve skipped in the article was how good an Dread Returned Grave-Troll can be.  I get 14/14 ish Grave-Trolls all the time.

The deck gets Chalice often enough that I'm not worried about someone tutoring for Mana Crypt. If they get it before I get a chance to lay Chalice, or if they have Welder, then I'm screwed, but neither of these really stops Yosei from being a better target. You could use the same argument for Swords to Plowshares, Diabolic Edict, any kind of removal, or blockers against anything that isn't Yosei.

Anything is better than Sutured Ghoul, because without the Ghoul, you don't have to run crap like Gigapedes, and can replace them with Shambling Shell for more consistant dredging and Ichorid targets. Rather than going all in on a giant monster and praying that they don't have some sort of instant-speed kill, you win via Ichorid beats much more consistantly and nearly just as quickly.

[meadbert]

Gigapede is certainly not much worse than Shell and it may not be worse at all.  I found that the first Shell is better than the 4th Gigapede.  Once I made that change I found that the second Shell and 3rd Gigapede are very close.  The 2nd Gigapede is better than the third Shell.  Even if Sutured Ghoul did not exist I would still recommend running at least 2 Gigapedes.

Regarding Chalice of the Void:
One weakness of Manaless Ichorid is that without tutors and without the ability to mulligan into Chalice Manaless Ichorid is not as likely to find Chalice as other Ichorid variants.  This makes it somewhat more vulnerable to graveyard hate.

The threat of Tormod's Crypt is much worse than the threat of bounce or Swords.  If my opponent removes my Sutured Ghoul then my game plan is still intact.  I am still going to win on turn 5 with Ichord + Shadow beats.  All he has done is kept himself alive for one more turn.

If you bring out Yosei and you are Crypted then your opponent has set back your whole game plan.

Cabal Therapy can protect you from Swords and bounce.  Cabal Therapy cannot protect you from Vamp->Tormod's Crypt.

[dicemanx]

If you don't want to be going "all in" with the Sutured Ghoul, then I see little motivation for running the manaless version. Running enough B sources to support Putrid Imps, Ashen Ghouls, and permit the hard casting of Therapy makes more sense if you wish to retain some flexibility in terms of the manner in which you kill.

In the manaless version however, Sutured Ghoul seems to me to be the superior win condition.

[desolutionist]

I go on to say that MSX isn't played because of that binary nature, and make that statement because I envision manaless Ichorid suffering the same fate (and you call such a statement as "absolutely" irrelevant?). The deck is just too inflexible and doesn't have enough resources to be able to fight through hate consistently enough when it does hit the table.

This is what I disagree with.  It is unique enough that it isn't completely stopped by any answer outside of Leyline and Planar Void, so it really isn't "at the opponent's opening 7" because nothing in that 7 can prevent Ichorid from doing what it does.  It is also slightly flexible, rather than completely binary, because it can use its proactive disruption to prevent the opponent from winning or to ensure its own victory.

[zeus-online]

A bit off-topic...but i just happened to read a question in the rules forum regarding City in a bottle....wouldn't that card completely wreck ichorid? Although, we haven't come to the point where such narrow hate is necessary.

/Zeus

[jpmeyer]

A bit off-topic...but i just happened to read a question in the rules forum regarding City in a bottle....wouldn't that card completely wreck ichorid? Although, we haven't come to the point where such narrow hate is necessary.

/Zeus

Well, probably no more or less than say, Pithing Needle

[dicemanx]

This is what I disagree with.  It is unique enough that it isn't completely stopped by any answer outside of Leyline and Planar Void, so it really isn't "at the opponent's opening 7" because nothing in that 7 can prevent Ichorid from doing what it does.  It is also slightly flexible, rather than completely binary, because it can use its proactive disruption to prevent the opponent from winning or to ensure its own victory.

This doesn't take away from the idea that both happen to be at the extreme end of being binary relative to other decks in the format. You wish to argue that one is perhaps slightly less binary than the other, but I don't care to discuss that comparison, and I'll concede that Ichorid might be less binary. 

[Smmenen]

If it is defined as being binary, it can't be to such a degree that it shares similar faults with SX.

You're not exactly making sense. I categorize Ichorid and MeandeckSX as being far on the binary side of the scale. While Ichorid might have disruption and have diminished susceptibilities to certain cards, it is still very much at the mercy of its opening 7 and the opponent's opening 7 even though the odds are probably in its favor. That is a defining characteristic of a binary archetype.

I go on to say that MSX isn't played because of that binary nature, and make that statement because I envision manaless Ichorid suffering the same fate (and you call such a statement as "absolutely" irrelevant?). The deck is just too inflexible and doesn't have enough resources to be able to fight through hate consistently enough when it does hit the table.

I'll be honest as well.  I'm not even sure I know what you mean  by binary anymore.

The thing that made MD Tendrils so "binary" as you put it was that it either had the unstoppable kill or it folded like a deck of cards.   

This deck is binary to the extent that it folds to: Needle and Leyline game one, but it never "fizzles."   It's extremely resilient.  It attacks the one resource from which answers spring: the hand and bottles up nasty vintage bombs like Tinker and Will with Chalice while it wins.   Also, let's not pretend that you ever go all in with Ghoul.   You don't.   The ghoul never reachees play unless the coast is clear.   And even if something happens to ghoul, you still have men to bring back and kill with. 

This deck is the ultimate non-"all-in" deck except for perhaps 3 or 4 cards in the format that specifically hose it, some of which are very rare (leyline) and some of which are common but not that devastating (T. Crypt). 

I think its binary like Fish is binary, not very.   You'll have to, in another thread, elaborate on what exactly you mean by binary here.

@ Kobefan.  I must say, your diatribe on Maze was hiliarious.   

Steve, I'm kinda disappointed in your list.  No new tech and you even run Maze of Ith. Which is the most un-Steve like thing to do. Your reasoning behind this is it gives you a good answer to an early tinker DSC, but you out of anyone I would expect to not to find this as an answer, because you have 2 perfectly other good ways of beating an early DSC hand either you prevent it from coming down via discard spells or chalice or else you simply race it. What happened to the guy that won with Desire, ESG, and Time Walks vs. extract and Hide/Seeks?

I think you are drawing a parallel that appears to be consistent but isn't there.

My reasoning for not running a second Tendrils has a particular rationale that is rather complex, but briefly generalized is that it costs more to take up a slot than it is worth.    Here, Maze of Ith fills an open slot and answers one oft he decks rare weaknesses at no cost.   Every card in the deck is bad.  In contrast, every deck in Grim Long is good.   

Also, I have changed my view on Maze.  I no longer run it because of the second reason you cite: This deck is actually faster than Tinker Colossus most of the time.

I think you also simplified the cabal therapies a little too much. There is no reason to play them that aggressively naming counterspells. IMO you should be naming the cards that will kill you. I'm guessing this isn't the way you really should (and actually) play the deck.

The rule is basically this: The primary purpose of Cabal Therapy is to clear the way for your combo kill.   

The exception to the rule is this:  They will kill you before you combo out.  In that narrow instance, you Therapy to stop them, not to clear the way. 

One thing I'd like to see in an upcoming article is why the sutured ghoul combo of 2 Dragon Breath, 2 ghoul, and 2 Dread Return is better than just running 3 Dread Return and 3 Titans or something similar. Running Titans over ghouls lets you play your discard spells more conservatively naming business instead of counterspells since you don't have to go all in with the ghoul combo. Titan is also much better vs. DSC as he lets you attack with your ichorids and then gives you a creature to animate that can block DSC to absorb 10 of its 11 damage, meanwhile destroying all of your opponents lands (something that a animated troll couldn't do).

I will address this in the future. 

[hitman]

It seems like there's actually some extra room in these builds that people are trying to fill to optimize the list.  Would adding Ashen Ghouls be a more solid option than running things like Sutured Ghoul.  That inclusion takes up 6 cards (Gigapede, Ghoul, and Dragon Breath).  Couldn't you run Ashen Ghoul and 2 Swamps and be just as fast and still have the Grave-Trolls to Dread Return.  You can Petrified Field the Swamps into your hand.  The reason I suggest adding a little mana is because you can Therapy turn one with mana and maybe Unmask.  I think against decks like Long, that gives you a really good advantage in the matchup.  I also cut Strip Mine and Maze of Ith for Jet and Chrome Mox because Strip Mine would come out 3rd turn (unless it's in your opening hand) but the added black lets you bring back more creatures and add more disruption in the first couple turns.  It could speed up the kill by letting me Therapy myself and start dredging off the Bazaar turn one.  It also lets you side in Darkblast for the Slaver matchup.  Just an idea.

[meadbert]

Ashen Ghouls have been tried by many people and there are some very good mana light versions that run them.  Check out the Cookie Monster thread.  That deck is similar to Manaless Ichorid but it splashes some mana and some highly efficient cards like Ashen Ghoul and I think the newest lists even have Duress in the maindeck.  The problem I have had with Cookies Monsterish decks is this.  I really want 4 Bazaars and 4 Petrified Fields.  That only leaves 3 more lands I can run before I start to hit too many dead lands.  Are 3 Bayous enough to support Ashen Ghoul?  Maybe.  At worst Ashen Ghoul RFGs to Unmask, Ichorid and Sutured Ghoul so it is not like he is ever a dead card.