3CB #92 (New Year Edition) Results and Discussion/3CB Tournament #93

[Godder]

I'd like to congratulate Silvernail as the winner of 3CB Tournament #92 - New Year Broken Extravaganza! It was another low-ish turnout this time around until the call came for more entries, but with Christmas and New Year in the way, that's not surprising. It's the same format next time, since it seems to be interesting, but are there any requests for formats for 3CB #93?

3CB Tournament #92 Card list:

Mesmeric Fiend
Nezumi Shortfang
Blackmail
Cabal Therapy
Abandon Hope
Pulse of the Dross
Pox
Mind Swords
Smallpox
Coercion
Nullstone Gargoyle
Form of the Dragon
Ghost Quarter
Strip Mine
Wasteland
The Rack
Balance
Glacial Chasm
Trinisphere
Null Chamber
Any deck that can force the discard of more than one card per turn
Any deck that can goldfish on turn 1
Any deck that can't win if the opposition does nothing e.g. Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Wheel of Torture (aka The Mise Prize, given out to decks that score lots of 2-2 draws)

Decks:

1   Silvernail   -   Mine's Better Than Yours   -   Black Lotus   Show and Tell   Darksteel Colossus
2   Illissius   -   Borken! Dargon!   -   Black Lotus   Show and Tell   Form of the Dragon
3   Diopter   -   Blatantly stealing Godder's idea   -   Tropical Island   Thallid   Daze
4   Franz Ferdinand   -   I like Chinese   -   Mishra's Workshop   Steel Golem   Trinisphere
5   Godder   -   Down on the Swamp   -   Bayou   Thallid   Duress
6   Silvernail   -   So, ahhh – are you gonna play that?   -   Black Lotus   Show and Tell   Angel of Despair (Mise Prize)
7   Illissius   -   lalalalalalalalalalalalala   -   Mishra's Workshop   Jinxed Choker   Glacial Chasm
8   Godder   -   Broken.dec   -   Black Lotus   Balance   The Rack
9   Franz Ferdinand   -   Midnight Run   -   Mox Jet   Mishra's Factory   Mesmeric Fiend
10   Nevroz   -   Inner-ear Malfunction   -   Saprazzan Cove   Chimeric Idol   Sand Golem
11   Dskippy0   -   Inner-ear Malfunction   -   Saprazzan Cove   Chimeric Idol   Sand Golem
12   OfficeShredder   -   Madness   -   Lion's Eye Diamond   Arrogant Wurm   Basking Rootwalla
13   ReAnimator   -   Half a Brick   -   Hickory Woodlot   Naturalize   Tempting Wurm
14   ReAnimator   -   Jinxed!   -   Mishra's Workshop   Jinxed Choker   Glacial Chasm

Results:

      1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   0   1   2   3   4 Bonus Total Position
1|   X   0   3   3   3   6   3   0   3   6   6   6   6   3   40   88   1
2|   6   X   3   3   3   2   0   3   3   6   6   3   0   0   30   68   11
3|   3   3   X   0   2   6   3   3   3   6   6   3   6   3   40   87   2
4|   3   3   6   X   6   6   0   3   3   6   6   3   6   0   30   81   3
5|   3   3   2   0   X   6   3   3   3   3   3   3   0   3   40   75   7
6|   0   2   0   0   0   X   2   0   0   2   2   2   2   2   30   44   14
7|   3   6   3   6   3   2   X   0   3   6   6   6   0   2   30   76   5
8|   6   3   3   3   3   6   6   X   3   0   0   4   6   6   20   69   10
9|   3   3   3   3   3   6   3   3   X   2   2   3   6   3   30   73   8
0|   0   0   0   0   3   2   0   6   2   X   2   0   0   0   40   55   12
1|   0   0   0   0   3   2   0   6   2   2   X   0   0   0   40   55   12
2|   0   3   3   3   3   2   0   1   3   6   6   X   2   0   40   72   9
3|   0   6   0   0   6   2   6   0   0   6   6   2   X   6   40   80   4
4|   3   6   3   6   3   2   2   0   3   6   6   6   0   X   30   76   5

With a lot of Lotus decks, anti-Lotus cards were strong this week, and Daze was better than Duress in the metagame. It was interesting that the Form of the Dragon deck had the best record, as the Balance hate didn't generally add up to Form of the Dragon hate. At the end of the day, however, Colossus was just too damn big, although the Thallid-Daze deck came awfully close.

For next time: The broken extravaganza continues! Entries will receive a 10 point bonus for each card in the deck that is not on the list below, and an additional 10 points if they don't breach any of the rules at the bottom. Where individual cards breach a rule, I will only penalise once (e.g. Balance is on the list and will often cause decks to discard more than one card). Please note that cards must still be legal in Vintage.

Card list:

Mesmeric Fiend
Nezumi Shortfang
Blackmail
Cabal Therapy
Abandon Hope
Pulse of the Dross
Pox
Mind Swords
Smallpox
Coercion
Nullstone Gargoyle
Form of the Dragon
Ghost Quarter
Strip Mine
Wasteland
The Rack
Balance
Glacial Chasm
Trinisphere
Null Chamber
Any deck that can force the discard of more than one card per turn
Any deck that can goldfish on turn 1
Any deck that can't win if the opposition does nothing e.g. Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Wheel of Torture (aka The Mise Prize, given out to decks that score lots of 2-2 draws)

3-Card Blind (3CB) is a very unique game. With thanks to Zoneseek, the rules are as follows:

• Your deck comprises 3 cards, all of which start in your hand.
• The library starts at 0 cards and you have no sideboard (Wishes fetch nothing).
• Random effects always go in your opponent's favour.
• All hands are revealed, so you always make the best possible play.
• You don't lose as a result of not being able to draw a card. If cards are put into your library, you draw normally.
• Other than the aforementioned, normal Magic rules apply.
• Decks are played against each other deck twice by the Moderator, once going first, once going second. For each win, you score 3. For each draw, you score 1. For each loss, you score 0.
• While it may seem obvious, decks may not use cards from the 3CB Banned List. Illegal decks and decks with illegal cards will be rejected.

To make an entry, PM your deck to Godder in the following format:

Subject: 3CB Tournament #93 Entry
Deck Name
Card #1
Card #2
Card #3

Optional Deck discussion, random sucking up, etc.

Entries close January 27. Players may enter up to two decks, but I reserve the right to restrict entries to one deck per player if sufficient entries are received, so please designate your preferred deck, just in case.

[Illissius]

Cool stuff. I don't see how Dargon had the best record, though -- don't #1, #3, #4, #7, #8, #9, #13, and #14 all beat it? Which is, well, most of them. (Incidentally, I think it should 6-0 against #12 -- Dargon has Moat -- but that only helps a little).

[Godder]

By Dargon, I actually meant 3Sphere... Oops! That said, Moat + burn is still good, which is how it beats Colossus, for example.

[Franz Ferdinand]

Doesn't #8 only get 10 bonus points? It breaks a rule below the card list, so it only gets 10 for Lotus.

[Godder]

Where individual cards breach a rule, I will only penalise once (e.g. Balance is on the list and will often cause decks to discard more than one card).

[silvernail]

Yay mine really was better than yours . Now to think up some other ridiculous deck...

[Godder]

Yay mine really was better than yours . Now to think up some other ridiculous deck...

Appropriate Dual Land, Thallid, disruption is powerful in 3CB, whether Daze, Swords to Plowshares or Duress . Which is better is usually just a metagame decision, although StP is slightly better in the 'mirrors'.

[diopter]

Yay mine really was better than yours . Now to think up some other ridiculous deck...

Appropriate Dual Land, Thallid, disruption is powerful in 3CB, whether Daze, Swords to Plowshares or Duress . Which is better is usually just a metagame decision, although StP is slightly better in the 'mirrors'.

Amen brother like I said, I was blatantly stealing your idea  ...

P.S. Wait til you guys see what I got cooked up for the next 3CB... 

[OfficeShredder]

Yay mine really was better than yours . Now to think up some other ridiculous deck...

Appropriate Dual Land, Thallid, disruption is powerful in 3CB, whether Daze, Swords to Plowshares or Duress . Which is better is usually just a metagame decision, although StP is slightly better in the 'mirrors'.

Isn't daze just as effective as StP when your opponent can only tap for one mana anyway?

[diopter]

Yay mine really was better than yours . Now to think up some other ridiculous deck...

Appropriate Dual Land, Thallid, disruption is powerful in 3CB, whether Daze, Swords to Plowshares or Duress . Which is better is usually just a metagame decision, although StP is slightly better in the 'mirrors'.

Isn't daze just as effective as StP when your opponent can only tap for one mana anyway?

In Thallid mirrors, the player on the draw can use Duress to strip Daze out of the opponent's hand first, then play Thallid on the second turn.

[OfficeShredder]

In Thallid mirrors, the player on the draw can use Duress to strip Daze out of the opponent's hand first, then play Thallid on the second turn.

But if you're on the play you win with your tokens anyway since you get up a turn on your opponent.

Besides, I don't see how that's different from StP anyway

[technogeek5000]

Interesting format, where/when is this played, I have a few ideas, looks cool.

You just PM me a deck (check the rules in the starting post of this thread for legal cards and so on), and I calculate results based on what I believe to be the optimal play for both decks (hands are revealed), and then post the results after two or so weeks along with the format of the next tournament.
-Godder

[diopter]

In Thallid mirrors, the player on the draw can use Duress to strip Daze out of the opponent's hand first, then play Thallid on the second turn.

But if you're on the play you win with your tokens anyway since you get up a turn on your opponent.

Besides, I don't see how that's different from StP anyway

Interesting point - I could never wrap my head around whether you could win a Thallid mirror, but now that I think about it, if you are two spore counters ahead, you can have a one-token advantage.

Godder, in the 3 vs. 5 mirror:
3 on the play:
3 plays Trop->Thallid, 5 has to Duress first which puts player 3 two spore counters ahead on his turn, which means he can win the mirror. Thoughts?

[Godder]

There's the minor problem that the second Thallid is free to attack as long as there isn't an extra saproling in play, or a non-Thallid blocker, because a trade means a draw, which is good. Consequently, working out how the game will play out is much harder.

[diopter]

There's the minor problem that the second Thallid is free to attack as long as there isn't an extra saproling in play, or a non-Thallid blocker, because a trade means a draw, which is good. Consequently, working out how the game will play out is much harder.

Ahhh right right. I forgot about that. Thanks!
(hehehe, thought I could eke out a few extra points )

[OfficeShredder]

There's the minor problem that the second Thallid is free to attack as long as there isn't an extra saproling in play, or a non-Thallid blocker, because a trade means a draw, which is good. Consequently, working out how the game will play out is much harder.

Player A vs. Player B:

A gets thallid

B plays duress

A(1 token) attacks: B = 19 life

B plays thallid

A(2 tokens)

B(1 token)

A(3 tokens) makes saproling (0 tokens, 1 saproling)

B(2 tokens)

A(1 token, 1 saproling).  Attack with saproling.  B = 18 life

B(3 tokens) makes saproling (0 tokens, 1 saproling) Attack with Thallid because a trade is fine - Godder.

A(2 tokens, 1 saproling).  Attacks with saproling.  If B blocks with saproling, the situation is as it was before, and A will get to continue swinging for 1 every couple of turns.  So B has to take the hit B = 17 life

B(1 token, 1 saproling) attacks with saproling, since he can't block.  A = 19 life

A(3 tokens, 1 saproling).  Attacks with saproling, B=16 life.  A makes saproling(0 tokens, 2 saproling).

here's the key now.  If A continues to attack with only one saproling, if B blocks every single time, eventually all the saprolings will be dead and B will lose, since we will reset to the beginning, where A got to swing for a free point of damage.  If B doesn't block every turn, B will lose unless he attacks.  If B waits for that one turn where the saproling counts are even, then swings in full, A will take one damage and get to swing again, and A and B will both have one saproling.  Hence, B can never catch up, and can never stop the saproling horde.  If anyone has an idea why this doesn't work, let me know

[Godder]

You've missed that attacking with Thallid is occasionally possible for Player B, especially if A swings with everything other than Thallid. If anyone has the time to take it right down to the wire, it would be much appreciated, though.

[OfficeShredder]

You've missed that attacking with Thallid is occasionally possible for Player B, especially if A swings with everything other than Thallid. If anyone has the time to take it right down to the wire, it would be much appreciated, though.

I missed that, damn.

[diopter]

You've missed that attacking with Thallid is occasionally possible for Player B, especially if A swings with everything other than Thallid. If anyone has the time to take it right down to the wire, it would be much appreciated, though.

I missed that, damn.

But, player A can also swing with Thallid.

At any time Player A has:
Thallid w/ 3 tokens

And player B has:
Thallid w/ less than 3 tokens

Player A can also swing with the Thallid. This happens 3 steps above the step where Godder edited with blue text.

[OfficeShredder]

Specifically at the part editted in blue (thanks for that, I can't edit easily since my computer is dumb), the token has summoning sickness, but the only blocker is the thallid.  A block means it's a draw, so A takes a hit, and is still up by 1 life, but then if A swings with the token, B can swing with the token AND the thallid, and tie it up.

[diopter]

Specifically at the part editted in blue (thanks for that, I can't edit easily since my computer is dumb), the token has summoning sickness, but the only blocker is the thallid. A block means it's a draw, so A takes a hit, and is still up by 1 life, but then if A swings with the token, B can swing with the token AND the thallid, and tie it up.

Player A can just wait til he has 2 saprolings to B's one and attack with the non-summoning sick one. If B blocks with his one saproling,t hen we're back to three steps above the blue mod text. If B doesn't block, then he can't actually counterattack because he has one Saproling and one Thallid to A's one untapped Saproling and one Thallid.

[silvernail]

well since most thallid decks run duress or daze, just run Pendelhaven, Swarmyard, Thallid. It wins the Thallid mirrors anyway since daze and duress do nothing to you. It's got no game vs other decks but hey whos counting.

[technogeek5000]

question: silvernails second deck that came in 6th... if an opponent chooses not to play a card with show and tell wouldnt the angel have to kill itself.

[diopter]

question: silvernails second deck that came in 6th... if an opponent chooses not to play a card with show and tell wouldnt the angel have to kill itself.

It was given "Teh Mize Prize" for not being able to win.
And it actually came in 14th... it was the sixth deck in Godder's list, but the 14th place.

[silvernail]

Ya it can't win any games but I thought it was pretty amusing though.

[Godder]

The number before each deck corresponds to the numbers on the round-robin so you can look up your deck's performance. The position column (the right hand end of the table) is where the deck actually placed.

Also, are we happy with the current format, or would something a little different be in order for the next 3CB?

[diopter]

The number before each deck corresponds to the numbers on the round-robin so you can look up your deck's performance. The position column (the right hand end of the table) is where the deck actually placed.

Also, are we happy with the current format, or would something a little different be in order for the next 3CB?

I'm pretty happy with it, but I've only played twice. I have been following for a few months now - I think it's good to change things up every once in a while, just like this broken-decks-can-play twist has led to some new submissions.

[Illissius]

I think 'broken stuff' is fine for another round, but after that I'd like something else. Maybe a 'no lotus' format?

[silvernail]

With no lotus, that kills a ton of things for sure, limites us to probably 1-2 CC stuff unless you use a ritual for a card or means we'll all be playing thallid decks or possibly workshop.

[Godder]

Workshop decks are strong, but you're by no means limited to those when Lotus is banned. Storage Lands make good ways of paying for costly items, and Channel is another option.