MDG in 2K7

[Imsomniac101]

Me thinks that EtW is only truly good when you play multiples, but you're right.

[LSD/Cruise]

It's the new Pyroclasm right now i guess. I'm trying out this build right now to play around Extirpate in general, and I'm really loving it.


// Mana 25
25 Same mana sources w/ the 3rd Underground Sea


// Creatures 3
3 Dark Confidant


// Spells 32
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Recoup
1 Burning Wish
1 Dark Ritual
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Merchant Scroll
3 Gifts Ungiven
4 Brainstorm
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection


// Sideboard 15
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Mind's Desire
1 Pyroclasm
3 Duress
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Fire // Ice
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Hurkyl's Recall


IMO, Dark Gifts is back. I think it's a very strong contender right now, and can wreck the metagame obviously.

[LSD/Cruise]

I was testing Smmenen's build, and have honestly concluded that the extra slot could be Fact or Fiction. This deck needs to play control sometimes, and control is quite a mana hungry deck. Fact or Fiction can get you both mana and control to keep your game going. Hurkyl's Recall is nice to, but IMO, think it's unessesary atm.

[EnialisLiadon]

I prefer both Tendrils and Warrens main; over Tendrils/DSC or Burning Wish/DSC.  However, there are some games where I miss the stupid turn 1-3 "Tinker for Colossus" play.  Should this concern be met with "get over it," or should I put the DSC and Tinker in the sb?  This gives me the option in matches where I'd want it and is a nice anti-Extirpate measure.  Or is that just taking up space for better cards?

Empty the Warrens isn't affected by Extirpate either....

My main idea was that a good storm kill usually needs Gifts set-up and/or Yawgmoth's Will, both of which are hurt by Extirpate.

However, while I was typing this, I realized that EtW doesn't require 9 storm to be lethal like Tendrils and a horde of tokens can be made on the back of draw spells and/or bounce.

[Implacable]

After copious testing on MWS, this is my current list of MDG:

1 Darksteel Colossus

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Mana Drain
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Misdirection
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rebuild
1 Recoup
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Dark Ritual
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Empty the Warrens
2 Duress
2 Fire/Ice
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

Addressing controversial points in order:

Darksteel Colossus: As a 1-of, Darksteel is better than Warrens.  It requires no set-up, no support, it can get ripped off the top, and Tinker makes a great Gifts target. 

Mana Drain: Mana Drain is better than Duress in a control deck, and played properly, MDG is a control deck in every way and in almost every matchup.  Furthermore, Duress leaves you vulnerable to Waste, which is prevalent in my area.

Misdirection: This isn't really questionable, but I wanted to address something.  Some people have been cutting 1 of these from their builds, or cutting them completely.  That is wrong.  This deck wants to win every counter war, and multiple Misdirections allow that.

Leyline of the Void: I like free wins.  What can I say?

[Vegeta2711]

Darksteel Colossus: As a 1-of, Darksteel is better than Warrens.  It requires no set-up, no support, it can get ripped off the top, and Tinker makes a great Gifts target.

Bit of a nitpick, but really isn't it "As a 2-of"? Without DSC, you wouldn't be running Tinker in the first place. Also it's a god-awful topdeck, where Warrens is at least in the reasonable realm of being cast somewhere down the line. Just a note.

[Implacable]

Darksteel Colossus: As a 1-of, Darksteel is better than Warrens.  It requires no set-up, no support, it can get ripped off the top, and Tinker makes a great Gifts target.

Bit of a nitpick, but really isn't it "As a 2-of"? Without DSC, you wouldn't be running Tinker in the first place. Also it's a god-awful topdeck, where Warrens is at least in the reasonable realm of being cast somewhere down the line. Just a note.

Yes, it is a 2-of.  I recognize that it's a nitpick, but I probably should have clarified that.  The reason that I called it a 1-of is that Darksteel Colossus is almost an 'invisible' slot.  Tinker is the card that I care about, and Colossus is easily Brainstormed back 90% of the time.

The problem that I have with Warrens is that it sucks in the control mirror.  It's just terrible.  My theory goes something like this; MDG should outplay the aggro and Shop matchups while having a better deck in the Drain and combo matchups.  It seems like the better players (with lots of exceptions, of course) gravitate towards Rituals and Drains, so I worry about them when building my decks.  Drains and Rituals don't care about 6 1/1s, particularly when making those 6 1/1s means that you only have 3-4 cards left in hand.  An 11/11, on the other hand, kills them right quick.

[Mana Duane]

@ Implaceable

I think drain and ritual decks will find it harder to deal with 6 1/1's than they will the DSC. All those decks run either artifact bounce or goblin welders (CS) which are ideal for removing him. 6 1/1 are harder because there are 6 of them. Unless it's echoing truth bounce can't handle 6 1/1's. Additionally EtW is basically uncounterable because of the storm - making it strong against Drain decks. Think of it as an Angel or Morphling gambit that can't be countered and is harder to remove as there are 6 of them instead of 1.

[Implacable]

Dropping a Warrens for 6 tokens means that they have 3 turns to either kill you or neutralize the tokens.  That time is within Gifts' easy kill range, and it gives CS sufficient time to Slaver lock you, go off, or basically do whatever they want.  Even dropped on turn 1, Warrens (again, this is for 6, a reasonable amount) is still slower than the kill speed of Oath, a deck thats only weakness is speed.  While I understand that Tinker can be countered, having your threats being countered means that you're losing the Drain war.  In my eyes, threats are essentially the nail in the coffin; casting them should just be the sign that you've already won.  Drain mirrors aren't about 11/11s or hordes of Goblins; they're about scrabbling for the edge with decks that are essentially the same.

[ashiXIII]

Dropping a Warrens for 6 tokens means that they have 3 turns to either kill you or neutralize the tokens.  That time is within Gifts' easy kill range, and it gives CS sufficient time to Slaver lock you, go off, or basically do whatever they want.  Even dropped on turn 1, Warrens (again, this is for 6, a reasonable amount) is still slower than the kill speed of Oath, a deck thats only weakness is speed.  While I understand that Tinker can be countered, having your threats being countered means that you're losing the Drain war.  In my eyes, threats are essentially the nail in the coffin; casting them should just be the sign that you've already won.  Drain mirrors aren't about 11/11s or hordes of Goblins; they're about scrabbling for the edge with decks that are essentially the same.

You're wrong. Empty the Warrens changes the whole dynamics of the Drain mirror. I think every single Drain mirror I played day 2 at Waterbury was entirely centered around and decided by Empty the Warrens.

As an aside, speed is hardly Oath's only weakness.

[Smmenen]

After copious testing on MWS, this is my current list of MDG:

1 Darksteel Colossus

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Mana Drain
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Misdirection
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rebuild
1 Recoup
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Dark Ritual
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Empty the Warrens
2 Duress
2 Fire/Ice
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

Addressing controversial points in order:

Darksteel Colossus: As a 1-of, Darksteel is better than Warrens.  It requires no set-up, no support, it can get ripped off the top, and Tinker makes a great Gifts target. 

Mana Drain: Mana Drain is better than Duress in a control deck, and played properly, MDG is a control deck in every way and in almost every matchup.  Furthermore, Duress leaves you vulnerable to Waste, which is prevalent in my area.

Misdirection: This isn't really questionable, but I wanted to address something.  Some people have been cutting 1 of these from their builds, or cutting them completely.  That is wrong.  This deck wants to win every counter war, and multiple Misdirections allow that.

Leyline of the Void: I like free wins.  What can I say?

I don't think your deck is wrong, but it is essentially MDG of 6 months ago - even a year and six months ago - with the notable exception of your very unusual Sideboard.   

[Metman]

After copious testing on MWS, this is my current list of MDG:

1 Darksteel Colossus

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Mana Drain
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Misdirection
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rebuild
1 Recoup
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Dark Ritual
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Empty the Warrens
2 Duress
2 Fire/Ice
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

Addressing controversial points in order:

Darksteel Colossus: As a 1-of, Darksteel is better than Warrens.  It requires no set-up, no support, it can get ripped off the top, and Tinker makes a great Gifts target. 

Mana Drain: Mana Drain is better than Duress in a control deck, and played properly, MDG is a control deck in every way and in almost every matchup.  Furthermore, Duress leaves you vulnerable to Waste, which is prevalent in my area.

Misdirection: This isn't really questionable, but I wanted to address something.  Some people have been cutting 1 of these from their builds, or cutting them completely.  That is wrong.  This deck wants to win every counter war, and multiple Misdirections allow that.

Leyline of the Void: I like free wins.  What can I say?

I don't think your deck is wrong, but it is essentially MDG of 6 months ago - even a year and six months ago - with the notable exception of your very unusual Sideboard.   

I think his SB configuration is due to the ridiculous amount of Fish and Goblin Welders present in the meta.  I think the meta though would be cause for the inclusion of EtW, considering DsC is hit by both a single Welder activation and Swords to Plowshares. 

[Implacable]

I don't think your deck is wrong, but it is essentially MDG of 6 months ago - even a year and six months ago - with the notable exception of your very unusual Sideboard.   

That is correct.  My post was not going meant to be a me saying that I had great new tech; it was addressed toward those who wanted to replace the Iron Giant with Empty or Mana Drain with Duress.  I think that people are too quickly hopping aboard the bandwagon of change.  The principle point of my post was to rebut those who argue for change for the sake of change. 

In regard to my sideboard, I've arrived at this board in response to the development of my metagame, as should be done, and I am very happy with all of the slots in it.  In my testing so far, Empty annhilates Stax and Fish, Fire/Ice is useful against both Long and CS, Duress is good against combo, and the Blasts give me a formidable counter-wall when going up against control.  Leyline, of course, just does what it does.  Traditional elements of a Gifts sideboard, like Pyroclasm and Pithing Needle, are outclassed by Empty, which demands more slots.

Finally, to Ash: I would much prefer to play against a skilled opponent with Empties and Drains than a skilled opponent with a list resembling the one above.  From my own anecdotal experience, which includes recent tournaments and dozens of hours of testing, a big or small Empty simply is not the determinant of a Drain mirror.  The match is won or lost in the card advantage.  In fact, I will reverse my statement above; I am currently testing a list that includes Night's Whisper in the board. 

[Zarathustra]

My post was not going meant to be a me saying that I had great new tech; it was addressed toward those who wanted to replace the Iron Giant with Empty or Mana Drain with Duress.  I think that people are too quickly hopping aboard the bandwagon of change.  The principle point of my post was to rebut those who argue for change for the sake of change.

Vintage has always been about change.  When something new and better comes along, things change. 

In regard to my sideboard, I've arrived at this board in response to the development of my metagame, as should be done, and I am very happy with all of the slots in it.  In my testing so far, Empty annhilates Stax and Fish,

Stax and Fish can be your two toughest matches.  So, why not play at least one EtW main.  I'm still confused. 

Finally, to Ash: I would much prefer to play against a skilled opponent with Empties and Drains than a skilled opponent with a list resembling the one above.  From my own anecdotal experience, which includes recent tournaments and dozens of hours of testing, a big or small Empty simply is not the determinant of a Drain mirror.  The match is won or lost in the card advantage.  In fact, I will reverse my statement above; I am currently testing a list that includes Night's Whisper in the board.

What?  You state that a big or small EtW is not determinant of a Drain mirror.  But, then you go on to say the match is won or lost on card advantage...  I hope I'm not the only one who finds that a bit contradictory.

Empty the Warrens is so good because it creates card advantage.  Six 1/1's require, in most cases, multiple cards to deal with.  While a Colossus requires ONE.  Do you not see how that creates card advantage?

-DShell

[Implacable]

Vintage has always been about change.  When something new and better comes along, things change. 

As I stated in my post, people are not changing because something better has come along; they are changing because something new has come along.  The entire post was addressing those who believe that EtW and Duress are better than Colossus and Duress.

Stax and Fish can be your two toughest matches.  So, why not play at least one EtW main.  I'm still confused.
/quote]

Both Stax and Fish are colossally underpowered.  While they may be theoretically difficult matchups, my hardest matches are always in the Drain mirrors, because the decks that I am playing are operating at the same power level as I am.  While I understand that the best players often gravitate towards Drains, which may influence the perception that Drain matchups are harder, the fact remains that Drain decks cohesively unite the best cards in the format in ways that no other decks do, and that is why my decks are focused towards those matchups.

What?  You state that a big or small EtW is not determinant of a Drain mirror.  But, then you go on to say the match is won or lost on card advantage...  I hope I'm not the only one who finds that a bit contradictory.

Empty the Warrens is so good because it creates card advantage.  Six 1/1's require, in most cases, multiple cards to deal with.  While a Colossus requires ONE.  Do you not see how that creates card advantage?

While Empty the Warrens does create card advantage, it does not create any sort of card advantage that the other player should care about.  That is a huge misconception.  That is like saying that Oath of Druids creates card advantage.  While technically true, it is a facetious argument;  Empty the Warrens is simply a win condition. A goblin /=/ a card in Vintage; as a matter of fact, it does not even equal a small fraction of a normal card in such a high-powered format.  It is absolutely untrue, furthermore, that Empty the Warrens cannot be answered with one card; for two relatively common answers, look for Echoing Truth, Engineered Explosives and, depending on a Stax players' fancy, Tabernacle or Slice 'n Dice (two solutions of which one is run by every Stax player that I know).  Finally, it must be taken into account that almost every win condition in Type 1 requires less turns to kill the opponent than the Goblins do.  You are essentially reading the card as follows:

Empty the Warrens
3R - Sorcery
Put 6 1/1 red Goblin tokens into play

Whether or not Storm is card advantage is a critical issue in this format.  As should be evidenced by my post, I do not believe that it is.  When you play the card Empty the Warrens, the above is what you are playing; although the effect may be at times more powerful than that, perhaps even much more powerful, that is the baseline.  If you are comfortable and happy with playing that card, then do so; I am certainly comfortable using it in the Stax or Fish matchup.  However, the above is simply not a card that merits all-around use, and it should not be seen as a source of card advantage.

[Zarathustra]

As I stated in my post, people are not changing because something better has come along; they are changing because something new has come along.  The entire post was addressing those who believe that EtW and Duress are better than Colossus and Duress.

From what I've tested, EtW is better.  The team I'm with feels the same way, through testing that is.  I'm not sure why you're still gravitating to an outdated win condition. 

Both Stax and Fish are colossally underpowered.  While they may be theoretically difficult matchups, my hardest matches are always in the Drain mirrors, because the decks that I am playing are operating at the same power level as I am.  While I understand that the best players often gravitate towards Drains, which may influence the perception that Drain matchups are harder, the fact remains that Drain decks cohesively unite the best cards in the format in ways that no other decks do, and that is why my decks are focused towards those matchups.

Stax and Fish may be underpowered.  But, I wouldn't say they are "theoretcially difficult", they can and still win games.  Besides, if you find Drain mirrors to be the toughest, then I still fail to see how EtW isn't that good.  Most Drain decks pack a way to deal with a single target, Chain of Vapor and some still pack Hurkyl's and Rebuild.  All of with hurt Colossus.  Very few pack ways of dealing with EtW.

While Empty the Warrens does create card advantage, it does not create any sort of card advantage that the other player should care about.  That is a huge misconception.  That is like saying that Oath of Druids creates card advantage.  While technically true, it is a facetious argument;  Empty the Warrens is simply a win condition. A goblin /=/ a card in Vintage; as a matter of fact, it does not even equal a small fraction of a normal card in such a high-powered format.  It is absolutely untrue, furthermore, that Empty the Warrens cannot be answered with one card; for two relatively common answers, look for Echoing Truth, Engineered Explosives and, depending on a Stax players' fancy, Tabernacle or Slice 'n Dice (two solutions of which one is run by every Stax player that I know).  Finally, it must be taken into account that almost every win condition in Type 1 requires less turns to kill the opponent than the Goblins do.  You are essentially reading the card as follows:

Empty the Warrens
3R - Sorcery
Put 6 1/1 red Goblin tokens into play

Whether or not Storm is card advantage is a critical issue in this format.  As should be evidenced by my post, I do not believe that it is.  When you play the card Empty the Warrens, the above is what you are playing; although the effect may be at times more powerful than that, perhaps even much more powerful, that is the baseline.  If you are comfortable and happy with playing that card, then do so; I am certainly comfortable using it in the Stax or Fish matchup.  However, the above is simply not a card that merits all-around use, and it should not be seen as a source of card advantage.

If you think that you don't have to worry about EtW, then you will lose games.  I don't know of the last time anyone said to me, "I don't care about 6, 8, or 10 little dorks..."  Unless you're PL or something that can win through it.  Colossus is a threat, but when I can tutor for a way to bounce it and all my artifacts during your EOT and then win next turn, Colossus is hardly a threat.  Most Drain decks I know cannot tutor for any singleton and deal with 6+ 1/1 dorks.  Unless of course, they can win through it and most decks need time to set up before that and the tokens really hurt their plan.

And no, EtW doesn't read that...  I'm not sure why you'd think that.

-DShell

[Implacable]

From what I've tested, EtW is better.  The team I'm with feels the same way, through testing that is.  I'm not sure why you're still gravitating to an outdated win condition. 

My post is addressing that opinion, and specifically says that it is incorrect.  Now, as in all things, I may be wrong, and that is why I am posting here and talking to you.  Calling something an outdated win condition is unreasonable; calling something a bad win condition is sensible only if there are facts to back your opinion.  My argument, backed through my testing, is that Empty the Warrens as a 1-of simply is not effective as a maindeck kill condition.

Stax and Fish may be underpowered.  But, I wouldn't say they are "theoretcially(sp) difficult", they can and still win games.  Besides, if you find Drain mirrors to be the toughest, then I still fail to see how EtW isn't that good.  Most Drain decks pack a way to deal with a single target, Chain of Vapor and some still pack Hurkyl's and Rebuild.  All of with hurt Colossus.  Very few pack ways of dealing with EtW.

I understand that Fish and Stax do still win games.  What they do not still do is matter to me as much as the Drain mirror does, which is why I focus my decks upon that matchup.  Putting a clock on your opponent in the Drain mirror is not the optimal way to win it, and you should not win a Drain mirror because of a quick Empty (although I readily agree that an Empty for 20 followed by a Time Walk will be the win, if that is what you want to argue).  You are basing your strategy off a win condition; I am basing my strategy off a decklist.  In other words, using Tinker as your kill condition means that you can cast it and still defend yourself and play your deck as usual on the same turn. This is extremely important in the Drain mirror.

If you think that you don't have to worry about EtW, then you will lose games.  I don't know of the last time anyone said to me, "I don't care about 6, 8, or 10 little dorks..."  Unless you're PL or something that can win through it.  Colossus is a threat, but when I can tutor for a way to bounce it and all my artifacts during your EOT and then win next turn, Colossus is hardly a threat.  Most Drain decks I know cannot tutor for any singleton and deal with 6+ 1/1 dorks.  Unless of course, they can win through it and most decks need time to set up before that and the tokens really hurt their plan.

And no, EtW doesn't read that...  I'm not sure why you'd think that.

-DShell

It will take three swings of your Goblin team to kill me.  During the first two swings and on the turn you cast it, I do not care about your dorks.  They're dorks.  I already have Fish in my meta, and I already know how to play against a clock.  If you randomly Warrens for much more than that on your first turn, you have gotten exceedingly lucky, and I tip my hat to you.  Even then, I will still have 2 mainphases before my loss.  You will have tossed artifacts onto the field to cast your Warrens, and that is great for me, because it means that you have little to no disruption.  If that is the case, then I am prepared to try to win given the 2-3 mainphases that I will have total, just as I would against turn 1 Oath.

[Dakkon]

I consistantly have a storm of 5+ when I play ETW and thats 10+ goblins swinging for a 2 turn clock. And thats not even over extending. What people seem to be not understanding is that if the drain player only ETW's for 6 goblins then they more than likely have counter magic to protect their kill still. ETW doesnt have to go all in like tendrils does and even collossus does to win. People are assuming that they have the freedom to do whatever they want in the 2-3 turns they have left to live. And most times thats a bad assumption.

[LSD/Cruise]

I dont want to sound like a stubborn and ignorant activist, but if I honestly had to pick, I'd opt for Tinker personally. I say this because not because I won so many games with Tinker, but because how I was able to pull off those games with Tinker. Tinker is great because it's unpredictable, and your opponent might not keep hands with Tutors or bounce because they're playing agianst Drain. Due to Tinker's unpredictability, you can bust out early in the game, and if you dedicate the rest of your other disruption to protect Colossus, you can easily win. This is Meandeck Gifts. It has one of the finest and more reliable control mechanisms I have ever seen.
  Tinker is also quite easy to set-up, and protect because of it's low mana cost. It can also make many Gifts piles quite devastating since it doesnt take so much mana and set-up, considering the fact Time Walk means you get an untap step. Later in the game, you can treat your Tinker as a Morphling instead of your "Pocket Aces" early in the game, and start gifting for control cards to protect your win condition, and keep your opponent from doing things that are revelent as well.

  I've tested EtW, and I hate the fact it requires so much set up. Because it's set-up takes effort, that means your letting you opponent piece together your hand, if you just going to go -> Mox, Mox, Repeal, Mox, EtW. Yes, EtW is card advantage, but it's awful card quality, as Implacable that because you dedicate so much on setting up EtW, you wont have enough to resources to find control and keep you opponent in check, while you opponent just decides to capatilize against you (or just win since your giving away too much info) after you play Warrens due to lack of disruption. I do however believe this card may still be the key against Fish and Stax, just not Combo and the Drain mirror.

[seer]

The more welders that are present in your meta, the better ETW becomes in relation to Collosus. Also, the more swords you see, the better ETW becomes. If people start packing Echoing Truth... well that's slightly worse than swords against Collosus, because it is harder to cast and Collosus can often come out earlier than ETW.

In the drain mirror ETW is far superior to Tinker+Collosus for the following reasons:

1. ETW uses only one card slot where tinker/collosus uses two (although it shuts off the tinker for mana vault/lotus play)
2. ETW is only countered by the bounce spell Echoing Truth where Collosus is countered by all other bounce spells (in addition to the Rebuild you might see game1). Therefore it is easier to protect against traditional control decks.
3. ETW can be a one turn (or 0 turn with time walk) clock
4. ETW can be played after a lengthy counter war for an "oops I win"
5. An early countered tinker is usually game over. An early ETW... well it can't be countered
6. ETW can not be countered by a goblin welder

The downside to to ETW is:

1. Mass removal like Engineered Explosives, etc, can easily deal with all the tokens.
2. The same mana denial that hurts you with Tendrils hurts you with ETW -- but at the same time this can be a boon because an ETW for 3-4 is usually game against a deck that is playing lock pieces.


That being said, if you are in a fish heavy meta it might be a good idea to run Tinker/Titan in the board, along with 1-2 more copies of ETW. I don't anticipate a fish deck beating a gifts deck packing ETW AND Tinker.

As far as combo goes, I don't think you need to run more win conditions than Tendrils.

[Liam-K]

I've been testing ritual gifts a lot.  Drain gifts feels a lot more stable, but when I switch back what I find myself missing is LED.

I'm testing it in my drain build.  It's definitely broken.  I'm not entirely convinced it isn't win-more, but I think it IS worth the time to test.

[Zarathustra]

My post is addressing that opinion, and specifically says that it is incorrect.  Now, as in all things, I may be wrong, and that is why I am posting here and talking to you.  Calling something an outdated win condition is unreasonable; calling something a bad win condition is sensible only if there are facts to back your opinion.  My argument, backed through my testing, is that Empty the Warrens as a 1-of simply is not effective as a maindeck kill condition.

I'm confused.  If you don't think that EtW is a maindeck kill condition, what is it? 

I understand that Fish and Stax do still win games.  What they do not still do is matter to me as much as the Drain mirror does, which is why I focus my decks upon that matchup.  Putting a clock on your opponent in the Drain mirror is not the optimal way to win it, and you should not win a Drain mirror because of a quick Empty (although I readily agree that an Empty for 20 followed by a Time Walk will be the win, if that is what you want to argue).  You are basing your strategy off a win condition; I am basing my strategy off a decklist.  In other words, using Tinker as your kill condition means that you can cast it and still defend yourself and play your deck as usual on the same turn. This is extremely important in the Drain mirror.

If putting a clock on your opponent is not the way you win a Drain mirror, then how is Tinker/Colossus good?  It takes up two slots, while EtW only takes one.  That seems better to me.

I'd much rather have EtW against a Drain deck.  Simply because I can EtW early and still be in the game.  EtW is also much easier to defend.  If Tinker is countered you're down 2 cards and A LOT of tempo.

It will take three swings of your Goblin team to kill me.  During the first two swings and on the turn you cast it, I do not care about your dorks.  They're dorks.  I already have Fish in my meta, and I already know how to play against a clock.  If you randomly Warrens for much more than that on your first turn, you have gotten exceedingly lucky, and I tip my hat to you.  Even then, I will still have 2 mainphases before my loss.  You will have tossed artifacts onto the field to cast your Warrens, and that is great for me, because it means that you have little to no disruption.  If that is the case, then I am prepared to try to win given the 2-3 mainphases that I will have total, just as I would against turn 1 Oath.

Again, you're assuming too much.  EtW is much different than a team of Fishy Dudes.  Especially when you're facing 6+ dudes(this number is focused on because it's so easy to attain and is very tough to deal with) on turn 1 or 2.  So, no you're racing to find an answer while I can protect and still beat you.  I'm not so certain that many decks can deal with 6+ Dorks, but I know a lot can deal with 1 Iron Giant.

-DShell

[Implacable]

I've been testing ritual gifts a lot.  Drain gifts feels a lot more stable, but when I switch back what I find myself missing is LED.

I'm testing it in my drain build.  It's definitely broken.  I'm not entirely convinced it isn't win-more, but I think it IS worth the time to test.

I have not tested LED in any Gifts builds, and, while I think that it may be a win-more card, that is not the reason why I have not tested it.  I think that playing Ritual in my Gifts builds accomplishes the same purpose that playing LED does - it gives me a second large and reusable mana source in addition to Lotus - , but what LED does is prevent you from protecting your Will/Gifts with counter backup.  I do not think
that LED should be played in decks without Duress.

I'm confused.  If you don't think that EtW is a maideck kill condition, what is it?

It is, as I have stated, a sideboarded kill condition, to be used in certain matchups where it has advantages due to the nature of your opponents' deck.

If putting a clock on your opponent is not the way you win a Drain mirror, then how is Tinker/Colossus good?  It takes up two slots, while EtW only takes one.  That seems better to me.

I'd much rather have EtW against a Drain deck.  Simply because I can EtW early and still be in the game.  EtW is also much easier to defend.  If Tinker is countered you're down 2 cards and A LOT of tempo.

If I cast an ETW on turn 1 or 2, I have at most, presuming no mulligans nor counters played, 3-4 cards left in hand.  In a Drain mirror, having to defend your kill conditions is not optimal.  Using your kill conditions after having seized the advantage, and not before, is the optimal way to win most games.

Again, you're assuming too much.  EtW is much different than a team of Fishy Dudes.  Especially when you're facing 6+ dudes(this number is focused on because it's so easy to attain and is very tough to deal with) on turn 1 or 2.  So, no you're racing to find an answer while I can protect and still beat you.  I'm not so certain that many decks can deal with 6+ Dorks, but I know a lot can deal with 1 Iron Giant.

I am facing dudes backed up by disruption; that is exactly what playing Fish is like.  Now, you may have Drains instead of Null Rods, but I have to deal with them regardless.  You are making the deck into something that is should not be by adding Empty the Warrens.  Decks like Repeal Gifts are specifically designed to take advantage of the card, and their design makes sense for their purpose.  Adding a speedy kill to a control deck is counterintuitive, and I do not understand why it appears so good.

[hitman]

MDG is already designed to abuse storm.  The primary win condition is Tendrils.  The example you're using in the control mirror doesn't make sense.  If both players sculpt their hands to stop their opponent when they try to win, why wouldn't an earlier, uncounterable, less graveyard dependent win condition be better than an easy to counter and easy to bounce/weld/swords, etc. win condition.  If you go Collosus against a deck that runs 4 Scrolls, you need at least one counter for their counter or inevitable bounce spell coming, and another counter to stop them from just Tendrilling you after you've attacked and not won.  The point Zarathustra's making is while you're setting up for that situation, he's beating you for 6 or more a turn because his earlier, harder to remove and uncounterable win condition is online sooner and more reliably.

[Implacable]

MDG is already designed to abuse storm.  The primary win condition is Tendrils.  The example you're using in the control mirror doesn't make sense.  If both players sculpt their hands to stop their opponent when they try to win, why wouldn't an earlier, uncounterable, less graveyard dependent win condition be better than an easy to counter and easy to bounce/weld/swords, etc. win condition.  If you go Collosus against a deck that runs 4 Scrolls, you need at least one counter for their counter or inevitable bounce spell coming, and another counter to stop them from just Tendrilling you after you've attacked and not won.  The point Zarathustra's making is while you're setting up for that situation, he's beating you for 6 or more a turn because his earlier, harder to remove and uncounterable win condition is online sooner and more reliably.

In the Drain mirror, both players tend to sculpt their hands because early and unbacked action is punished severely by an intelligent opponent.  If I were to go for the Colossus win after my opponent lays an early Empty, I would be playing the game incorrectly.  Situational adaptation is one of the hallmarks of a good Gifts player.  Intriguingly, both of us said essentially the same thing, although we drew different conclusions from it:

The point Zarathustra's making is while you're setting up for that situation, he's beating you for 6 or more a turn because his earlier, harder to remove and uncounterable win condition is online sooner and more reliably.

It will take three swings of your Goblin team to kill me.  During the first two swings and on the turn you cast it, I do not care about your dorks.  They're dorks.  I already have Fish in my meta, and I already know how to play against a clock.

You are, indisputably, capable of beating for 6+ a turn.  You will also be able to protect, to some degree, yourself while you beat for the kill (presumably, you will not be able to set up an easy Tendrils win after going off with Warrens).  The problem with your reasoning is that what you will not be able to do is match the other Drain player in terms of card advantage and quality.  In my opinion, this will result in you getting thoroughly outclassed by your opponent's strategy as a whole, and, while you may succeed in getting your opponent to low life, you will ultimately lose the game due to your spending of resources towards an early win rather than control of the game. 

Let me also address another point; running Empty the Warrens as a 1-of takes away one of its principle strengths.  The purpose of Empty the Warrens, and you seem to agree from what you've written here, is generally to produce an early and difficult to deal with force of ~6 Goblins.  That is all well and good, but running only one Empty makes it very unlikely that you will actually be able to do that.  I run 3 Empty the Warrens in my sideboard because they are extremely good as redundant and lethal threats in certain matchups.  That is all.

[DoubleDrain]

I am not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet or not, but one of the downfalls of EtW is the fact that it tempts you to hold on to your moxen, lotus, etc. in hand instead of droping them early and stealing the mana advantage. In the case of an early Empty (like turn 1 or 2), that might not be a problem, but what if your hand has some acceleration and no Warrens? Do you lay your mana down and force yourself to find warrens AND an artifact bouncer to power out the big warrens, or do you hold your artifacts and try to find warrens?

[Dxfiler]

I am not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet or not, but one of the downfalls of EtW is the fact that it tempts you to hold on to your moxen, lotus, etc. in hand instead of droping them early and stealing the mana advantage. In the case of an early Empty (like turn 1 or 2), that might not be a problem, but what if your hand has some acceleration and no Warrens? Do you lay your mana down and force yourself to find warrens AND an artifact bouncer to power out the big warrens, or do you hold your artifacts and try to find warrens?

I think when to lay your moxen and when not to is probably the hardest decision in ETW gifts besides what to get with a resolved gifts.  The decision of holding accelerants for empty seems to come down directly to matchups.  I know Brassman has adjusted to this with Gorilla shamans in his gifts.  I think if up against the mirror, it's reasonable to just hold the moxen... but there are obvious downsides.  if you play around things like gorilla shaman, you walk into other things like timetiwtser and mindtwist.  neither of those cards are staples in meandeck gifts, but have been showing up constantly in new versions of gifts.  Timetwister is pretty much a staple in gifts these days.  I know some good local players who stray away from Brassman's list and prefer MDG, but still chose to add timetwister because of its sheer power and versatility.

Anyway, the choice of when to hold moxen and when not to seems to boil down to circumstance.  If chalice of the void picks up, I suspect artifacts will get dumped from hand alot quicker.  After all, they can later be -repicked up with select bounce such as Hurkyl's or Rebuild.  Of course laying artifacts out sets you up for engineered explosives or the aforementioned gorilla shaman.  So it's really all a toss-up :p

Travis posed a great question here, but I don't think there's any one correct answer.  It shifts from match to match and is really up to the player to determine when it is and is not correct to hold a fist full of accelerants.

- Dave Feinstein 

[King_minos]

Sorry if I take the discussion off track but I have to ask,

Has anyone tried putting extirpate in the Gifts SB? I don't think it is good enough for a maindeck slot by a longshot, but what about boarding it in against drain matchups? If one could hit FOW or drain with it, they would have a serious advantage over their opponent. I may be running it in my build at a local power tourney so I will have some idea how it fairs then but I wanted to know if anyone had tried it yet.

[Disburden]

Brassman has also been using Extirpate in his Gifts builds lately. I know he ran two MD two tournaments ago. If you look under the Myriad Games tournament results you can see his new list. I believe there's only one single Extirpate now and that is in the sideboard rather than the maindeck. That card is still really shady to me since I haven't had time to test anything lately being that I work 50 hours a week now. I think one single copy in the sideboard may be too little and you'd want atleast two for certain match ups. I would really like two versus control so you can take Force of Will and cards like Brainstorm.

[o uncola o]

MDG is already designed to abuse storm.  The primary win condition is Tendrils.  The example you're using in the control mirror doesn't make sense.  If both players sculpt their hands to stop their opponent when they try to win, why wouldn't an earlier, uncounterable, less graveyard dependent win condition be better than an easy to counter and easy to bounce/weld/swords, etc. win condition.  If you go Collosus against a deck that runs 4 Scrolls, you need at least one counter for their counter or inevitable bounce spell coming, and another counter to stop them from just Tendrilling you after you've attacked and not won.  The point Zarathustra's making is while you're setting up for that situation, he's beating you for 6 or more a turn because his earlier, harder to remove and uncounterable win condition is online sooner and more reliably.

MDG can totally abuse storm.  I agree with you that, when you can make a sizable, yet still not lethal, storm count then EtW is better than Tendrils.  However, if you are unable to build a sufficient storm, or when doing so would be inefficient as you would be expending cards which could be better used for protection, then EtW will suck and so will Tendrils.  Tinker + Colossus is nice because you can launch it any time and do not have to worry about building sufficient storm.