Fish out of water (fish with no blue)

[rgbeatskeeper]

Is it possible to make fish without blue? Now you may be asking your self, why would you? I used to play fish a lot back in the day, u/r fish (mox monkey, fire/ice, lavamancer etc.) Every year that I see a new list for a fish deck I always see less and less blue and more of other colors. I’m not saying cut recall or timewalk; you can keep a blue splash those cards. My mind set is more focus around a blue hosier deck. More main deck disruption and cheep beefy creatures to apply pressure firmly.

I don’t have a deck list in mind right now I’m just proposing the idea. I would however make my deck RWB with maybe the U splash for recall/walk.
Red- main deck REB, mox monkey lavamancer
White for the and orims chat/abeyance.
Black- duress, theopy, bob.

I do realize this takes away meddling mage and force, but a deck like fish where you are trying to be proactive as apose to reactive i would rather not have force, yeah I know its crazy but I hate pitching a possible threat to counter something that’s going to be blue more than ½ of the time.

But without blue how do we stop oath? Any ideas?

[OfficeShredder]

See: The Mountain Wins Again

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28929.0

[rgbeatskeeper]

Not really what I had in mind, I still want duress and bobs.

[+t]

Ways to deal with Oath:

If you keep white: Seal of Cleansing, Disenchant, Kami of Ancient Law, Insert cards that destroy enchantments

BR: Diabolic Edict, REB, Goblin Bombardment

Bombardment actually forces you to play Rituals + Will + Tendrils as an alt win, which is something you should probably add to the deck anyway.

[OfficeShredder]

Not really what I had in mind, I still want duress and bobs.

Ummmm

go to the last post.  Click on the link to the tourney report.  Note both duress and bob x4 in the decklist

 

[rgbeatskeeper]

I am thinking the deck should be something like…

Red
4 REB
2 mox monkey
2 blastminer

White
4 lions
2 isamaru
4 grunt
2 stp
2 orims chant

Black
4bob
4duress
3withered wretch
2theopy

Artifacts
3 null rod/ skull clamp

Open slots
3???

S/B
2 chant
2 stp
2 lightning bolt
2 pyroblast
4 seal of cleansing
3 shattering spree / rack and ruin.

22 mana
5 strips
The rest I would really have to think about I’m not really good at fixing mana problems with decks, someone sujusted that I throw in one or two copies of Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth.

Its pretty much self explanatory, it looks like fish without blue like a weird sligh deck.
I like the idea of early mana denial that’s why I wanted the monkey/miner/strips. What I thought the deck lacked was draw so I was thinking about adding the clamps but if you go that route than you can’t use null rods. I understand people may not like the idea of clamp but a mid to late game mox monkey isn’t going to make much of a difference in my eyes, and she should be sacrificed for the greater good.

I love the main deck REBs with so much blue around it should never be a dead card.
As far as oath is concerned well stp is my only answer for the deck (in the main anyway). I felt grunt was necessary for this build he is a great beater who can live with a clamp swing for a quarter of your opponent's life. Not to mention being able to put your waste lands duress, and rebs back into your deck.

Withered Wretch I felt was necessary to stop your opponent's from recurring things from their graveyards.

I know there are 3 open slots, I thinning about moving more stps into the main deck or throwing in whipcorders to stop Akroma.

Like I said with the man aim not too sure what that should look like, but I want roughly 5 to 5 fetches to 1 thin out the deck and 2 shuffle it after your grunt has gone to work for you.---the bob

[wethepeople]

If you are going to make it RWb, then your list is just screaming Hide/Seek. Most recent TMWA builds do utilize the black splash by running Dark Confidant, H/S, and Duress, check out some of the later posts found in that thread.

There is another similar deck called PMITA, the link of which can be found here:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31492.0

Oh, and to make things a little easier to read, could you re-format your list so it goes something like: Creatures, Utility, Mana Base, etc. Rather than making it troublesome to understand by labling cards based under their designated color.

[silvernail]

Also of importance is the fact that fish is generally a mana denial deck that makes use of things like stifle, wasteland, daze and null rod. Any thing that doesnt have that element ( not nessicarily those cards) is essentially not a 'fish' deck.

Just me being nit picky about names ...on that topic people need to stop calling RGW decks zoo since zoo was RGU, but thats unimportant

[rgbeatskeeper]

This is a mana denial deck with mox monkey and blaster, null rod is optional.

[Lymph]

This is a mana denial deck with mox monkey and blaster, null rod is optional.

Optional !? It's the best card in your deck IMO. If you want to be sure to get rid of their artifact mana you should run more Mox Monkeys. Blastminer is too slow and mana intensive, I would play Crucible of Worlds over him and add a couple of black tutors to find Strip Mine.

[rgbeatskeeper]

Ok so what ill do is cut the minors for COW, and the three slots can be 3 tutors.

Ok I came up with this looks solid.

//NAME: Untitled Deck
        22mana:
        1 Mox Jet
        4 Scrubland
        2 Plateau
        4 Badlands
        2 Wooded Foothills
        4 Bloodstained Mire
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland

Disruption:
        4 Duress
        2 Cabal Therapy
        4 Red Elemental Blast
        3 Null Rod
        2 Swords to Plowshares
        2 Orim's Chant
        2 Crucible of Worlds
        2 Gorilla Shaman

Draw/ Tutors:
        4 Dark Confidant
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Imperial Seal
        1 Demonic Tutor

Men:
        4 grunt
        2 Savannah Lions
        2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
        2 Gorilla Shaman
        2 Withered Wretch

Sidboard:15
SB:  2 Orim's Chant
SB:  3 Chalice of the Void
SB:  1 Cabal Therapy
SB:  2 Pyroblast
SB:  2 Rack and Ruin
SB:  4 Seal of Cleansing
SB:  2 Swords to Plowshares

18 creatures in this deck I don’t know if that’s enough creatures to put on pressure with. As you can see I added the tutors and COW that Lymph recommended. Tutoring for a null rod seems good. I really think there is potential here.

The s/b looks solid as well; the seals seem ok against oath decks as well as aggro artifact decks. Orim's chant/chalice is in there for combo decks.

Cabal/pyro may be needed against control deck having all that anit blue hate doesn’t seem like a bad idea, well that’s the deck. -the bob

[orgcandman]

Change the MD reb to pyro. The pyro has much more advantages, like being able to feed grunt even when your opponent isn't playing blue.

Imperial seal is very VERY slow. There's no reason to run it. At least vamp you can use in your upkeep to draw the card that turn (especially good if you flip up a vamp with the DC)

Honestly, I think you should look at TMWA. Your list is excruciatingly similar to it; so much so that you would be foolish to ignore a list that gets tested for a minimum of 150 test games before each tournament.

As far as RBW hate goes, lists are very fluid. You need to really hedge your bets on what the metagame is going to look like, because some threats are terrible in the face of other decks and some are absolute gold.

-Aaron

[Guli]

Ofcourse it is possible to play without blue

However blue has a lot power to offer so i don't know if it would be wise

[wethepeople]

Ofcourse it is possible to play without blue

However blue has a lot power to offer so i don't know if it would be wise

Not really. In Fish, you don't rely on blue spells nearly as much as a majority of the other Vintage decks, however, the fact that it gives you Force of Will, Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, and a couple decent creatures is a good enough reason to run it though.

Again, I must reccomend that you run Hide/Seek. Considering that this deck is RWB, and those are in fact the colors of H/S, you should certainly look into it.

Just to make it easier for those of us trying to help out, could you please specify as much as you know about your metagame? In order for use to know which cards are good in a deck like this, you must know what you are up against, for example, you don't want to be maindecking four Red Elemental Blast in a field of Stax, you know?

[rgbeatskeeper]

I'm not really liking the hide and seek to much. I looked into it.

Oracle text: Put target artifact or enchantment on the bottom of its owner's library.
//
Search target opponent's library for a card and remove that card from the game. You gain life equal to its converted mana cost. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

So ok it deals with oath, kinda and DSC. But other than that I can't see to many uses.
As far as meta game goes, I'm in the midwest, chicago, lots of control.

[wethepeople]

I'm not really liking the hide and seek to much. I looked into it.

Oracle text: Put target artifact or enchantment on the bottom of its owner's library.
//
Search target opponent's library for a card and remove that card from the game. You gain life equal to its converted mana cost. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

So ok it deals with oath, kinda and DSC. But other than that I can't see to many uses.
As far as meta game goes, I'm in the midwest, chicago, lots of control.

Yeah, that's H/S. The reason it is so good is that versus something like MDG, Grim Long, or PL, you can RFG their Darksteel Colossus, gain 11 life, and they no longer can win via Tinker, and the Tendrils kil becomes much harder because they now have to Tendrils for like sixteen to win, where as they normally only need to get to like nine or ten before they cast ToA.

It does handle Oath fairly well since it takes away one of their creatures, as well as give you an additional turn with that additional seven or so life.

Doesn't the Midwest consist of a lot of Stax? I wouldn't know, considering that I live in NE, but I have seen several tournament reports with great amounts of Stax decks. If that is so, the H/S can now utilize Hide, also.

Why don't you like it, the thing is meant to be in a deck like this.

[rgbeatskeeper]

Yeah again I'm not liking the H&S but I have changed the mana base to have factorys and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.



       
        1 Mox pearl/ruby
        3 Plateau
        2 Badlands
        2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
        4 Mishra's Factory
        1 Wooded Foothills
        4 Bloodstained Mire
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland

[wethepeople]

Why is it that you don't-like H/S, that is all I am asking.

As far as your mana base goes, why exactly do you even want to run Tomb of Yawgmoth? If anything, it will help your opponent more than it will you. I see that you have a lot of colorless-mana producers, Wastelands, Factories, but none of them are intended to be used for actual mana. Factories are for 2/2 beaters. Wastelands are for land destruction. Why don't you just play actual Swamps/Badlands/etc?

[rgbeatskeeper]

I don't like the H/S because there are other cards that are more consitant that do a better job for less mana, seal,stp etc. and the tombs has been fixing mana problems I was having.

[wethepeople]

I don't like the H/S because there are other cards that are more consitant that do a better job for less mana, seal,stp etc. and the tombs has been fixing mana problems I was having.

The reason that H/S is good is because it does two things in one card, so if anything, H/S is the one to be "more consistant".

You said that you faced a lot of "Control", and as vague as that is, I am going to go out on a limb and assume that you are refering to Gifts, Control Slaver, and the like. Hide/Seek is unbelievably good in such matchups, and you should at the very least test it in a few games before you officially decline the card from your build.

I wish that you would give a little more information in your posts so I myself, and the other readers understand what you are trying to say a little better. Rather than just saying the mana problems you were facing, how about you mention what was happening, for example, mana flooded, lack of proper color, or lack of mana in general.

This also goes for my questioning of your metagame, because obviously, tournaments never consist of thirty Gifts Ungiven-based decks.