Please Help: Did I get ripped off on eBay?

[RaleighNCTourneys]

I've never had to deal with fake cards, but I am trying to upgrade my Drain Tendrils deck and I recently bought a Beta Mana Vault on eBay.

Here is the link with pictures:

http://cgi.ebay.com/MTG-Magic-the-Gathering-Beta-MANA-VAULT_W0QQitemZ140073327598QQihZ004QQcategoryZ49189QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I received the card in a timely fashion, insured and delivery confirmed. The pictures of the card are the card I received. I confirmed this with unique marks/scratches the card has. I don't know much about spotting fakes and the card did pass the bend test, but I just get a feeling its fake for a few reasons. 1) The card has a very very thin but definitely visible (more so in person than the pictures) white line around every edge front and back of the card. I have not seen this before except in one card out of thousands I have: an asian Diabolic Edict (I don't know why?) This is not due to whitening from play because it is so uniform and makes me think that it is due to being a fake and being cut by someone other than WOTC, 2) The card is not flat. It seems like the card in concave and raises up along the edges and is lower in the middle., 3) When I put this card on the top of my beta sol ring or demonic tutor, the card does not match up like the other 2 cards do. It is slightly smaller than them on top and the edges don't match up. This also leads be to believe the card in a fake and cut by someone other than WOTC.

That pretty much sums it up. Does everything I described mean I have a fake? It seems like it would but again I have never dealed with fake cards or had one. I bought this through paypal on eBay... do you think I can get my money back if the seller is not understanding?

Thanks for ANY help!!

Cody

Edit: I also have access to an analytical balance (to 4 decimals) if that would help for weighing it to compare to other betas. 

[The Chosen One]

The guy guarantees authenticity according to the information he gives on the auction. For having a membership for under a year and only having 19 feedbacks, I would be slightly sceptical. Although he is selling other older cards from what I can see, the starting bids are low, and with no but it now options, which is also a little sketchy, since that alpha badlands could sell for as little as $4 in noone bids on it. I would contact him and let him know you are unsatisfied and would like to get your money back. If he gives you crap, you can complain to ebay, I am unsure about the buyer protection that paypal/ebay offers for certain.

Good luck with this

Joe

[CrashTest]

Unfortunately, that is likely fake. This seller is well-documented as selling rebacked CE counterfeit cards with a lot of complaints lodged at him.

 There is a 7 page thread dealing with this very seller.


http://www.magictraders.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/022251.html

[RaleighNCTourneys]

That sucks. It's amazing that he sold like 7 other top end beta cards before me and no one reported him. he has 100% feedback...

if you look at his previous auctions all of the beta he sold was fake, which is obvious through the thin white lines around all of his cards. (hindsight is 20/20)

does anyone know if paypal guarantees the authenticity of my card and what I should say to them to prove as best I can its fake?

[ashiXIII]

That sucks. It's amazing that he sold like 7 other top end beta cards before me and no one reported him. he has 100% feedback...

if you look at his previous auctions all of the beta he sold was fake, which is obvious through the thin white lines around all of his cards. (hindsight is 20/20)

does anyone know if paypal guarantees the authenticity of my card and what I should say to them to prove as best I can its fake?

Unfortunately, it's a pain in the ass to get your money back through Paypal for fakes. You have to send them documentation to prove the card is a fake, which generally means you have to send it to PSA/BGS, etc. This sucks because it's time consuming and costs money. They may take a letter from a store with official letterhead, but I'm not sure and that's still annoying, as most store owners aren't very familiar with high-end cards, and even fewer have their own letterheads. Either way, good luck.

[TimeWizzle]

since paypal blows for refunds, the best way to get your money back is to call your credit card company to stop payment.  If you used direct bank transfer, you are probably S.O.L. if the seller doesn't agree to a refund.  But credit card will be no questions asked, because they are seriously anti-fraud.

[Fortifitakitors]

YEs I have been sceptical too about bidding for that guy. I noticed once he put up an Alpha Volcanic Island and it has essence of his other card by looking at the picture giving me a sneaking suspicion that it is not real. I can't explain how the cards look suspicious from the picture but I just got this strange feeling of intuition that the card is fake.

[ashiXIII]

YEs I have been sceptical too about bidding for that guy. I noticed once he put up an Alpha Volcanic Island and it has essence of his other card by looking at the picture giving me a sneaking suspicion that it is not real. I can't explain how the cards look suspicious from the picture but I just got this strange feeling of intuition that the card is fake.

The first thing that probably tipped you off is that they never printed Alpha Volcanic Islands.

[Mith]

I bought this from him:
Here
Now how do I find out if the PSA is real or not? Is there any way he can get a fake card PSA graded?

[MarkPharaoh]

It's possible for PSA to get the card and not know it was a fake.

[Royal Ass.]

People can pop open the cases and replace the card.  I've seen a FOILl lotus in a real lotus PSA case.

[Mith]

Well I just paid yesterday and I've called my credit card company to put a fraud hold on the payment. I feel bad for everyone else who left him positive feedback and clearly think the cards they got are real...

[CrashTest]

This is a growing problem. Most people can't figure out the card is fake, and the ones that do I think he refunds, and do not leave negative feedback for fear of retaliatory feedback on their account.

[Mith]

Well, he refunded my payment Considering the number of fake cards people have tried to pawn off on me via Ebay in my quest to complete a set of Beta duals, I'm glad I ALWAYS use a creditcard via paypal to pay...that way I know my ass is covered.

[desolutionist]

This is a growing problem. Most people can't figure out the card is fake, and the ones that do I think he refunds, and do not leave negative feedback for fear of retaliatory feedback on their account. It's like a never ending circle.

       This seller has even more cards up now, he is duping people out of thousands upon thousands of dollars in fakes. What can be done?

Pay him with fake money?

[Mith]

On Ebay, when it comes to older cards, references mean nothing. Take a look at the Beta Tropical Island that's listed at the moment (ending in ~23hrs). That shine and finish look incredibly fake, yet the seller has decent references.
In the end, all you can do when buying cards without seeing them in person is to make sure you use a credit card that will protect you from fraud. I've had everything from near-perfect fake moxes to color photo copies glued on lands show up in my mail box...and every time my credit card company has come through.

[Fortifitakitors]

Well we could pay him in monopoly money. This guy lives in Canastota, New York, and I am wondering if anybody has gotten stuff from him they could clarify this. Now since fakes have gotten extremely good and/or people are still indeed buying fakes, since we have a "fake card thread" maybe we should have a sticky thread of bad ebay users. A list that is updated consistently and everybody can pitch in and state the arguement and evidence against the supposed fraudulent ebay seller. Or maybe a thread just to discuss sellers (Both ebay and big vendors), since Vinatge magic has such expensive cards and I have seen a number of sceptical Magic the Gathering players that have complained about the issue of bad sellers and getting ripped off. I myself have been ripped off by sending a cashiers check to the seller of $90.00 for a beta Tundra, and if I had known that paying through something other than paypal is a bad idea, I would have done otherwise. What do you guys think? A Sticky thread to give advice to buy and selling cards on e-bay and to other vendors? I think that the accumulation of complaints is sufficient to bring this idea up.

[Royal Ass.]

What is the theory on how this guy is making these?: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZmikeph0210QQhtZ-1

Is he re-backing collectors edition cards?  If so, he would have to have multiple sets of collectors edition card in order to sell play sets of some of those cards.  He must also have a realatively economic and painless process for doing the re-backing procedure considering the number of cards he has done.
Does anyone know if these are re-backed collectors edition or what exactly his method if it is something else?

[CrashTest]

Yes, we know how he does it. They are rebacked Collector's edition cards.

       There is evidence showing him purchasing CE cards, take a look at the mOTL thread mentioned above.

           He just glues them on, and fixes the edges, it's as simple as that.

[Mith]

I notified Ebay, let's see what happens...

[RaleighNCTourneys]

My message to him:

Hello,

I received your Beta Mana Vault a few days ago. I am 100% sure the card is fake and that was my initial thought as soon as I saw the card. I had this comfirmed by a reputable dealer and multiple players with Beta cards. I will assume that you had no idea it was a fake and kindly ask for my money back. I really don't care if you are knowingly making fakes or somehow acquired a fake card; a full refund is all that I am seeking. I would appreciate it if you call me at xxx-xxx-xxxx and I can further explain to you how I know it is fake and you can ask me any other questions. I would really prefer to not go through eBay or paypal, but I intend to get my money back on this card. I do not have a lot of money to spend on magic and cannot accept fake cards for the money I do spend.

Thank you.

Cody Vinci
xxx-xxx-xxxx

His reply:

I firmly disagree that the card is fake, as I, too have had all of my cards checked by a whole host of people, including many by Beckett's and PSA. However, I stand by my word to guarantee my items 100%. Simply return the card back to me and I will provide you with a full refund.


Unfortunately, this is how the system works. I just want my money back and do not want to fight this. He will presumably continue selling the card until someone is dumb enough to keep it. I now understand why he has 100% feedback. Pretty sad...

[Royal Ass.]

Crash Test,
Have you (or anyone) written Wizards about this problem?  Or is this too small of an operation for them to care about or get involved in?  Maybe having one of their lawyers write the seller a letter would be enough to get him to stop?...

Also, I still can't believe the amount of positive feedback this guy has.  That's the most depressing part of all this.

[CrashTest]

He posted on the thread on MOTL. Read his reaction carefully to Dwiz. He turns the table on everyone, and accuses everyone of being malicious and defaming his "Good name", and calls it illegal. Hm, last I checked selling counterfeit cards was really illegal.. It's not like we are only going by pictures, which in and of themselves already reveal the cards are fake by a long shot: But multiple people have found these cards to be fake when they've received them and asked to be refunded.


Some people are unbelievable, simply unbelievable.

http://www.magictraders.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/022251-7.html

[Samite Healer]

This guy MUST be shut down.  Looking at all his other auctions right now makes me sick.

[Mith]

I've already contacted Ebay...if other do as well, it will hopefully speed up their investigation.

[Hi-Val]

If someone plans on contacting Ebay, it might be helpful to point out that he's ripping people out of THOUSANDS of dollars. This isn't some sort of small operation.

And for the record, it's not that hard to crack PSA cases and put other stuff in them.

[Jacob Orlove]

Forget contacting Ebay; if you want this guy shut down, contact Wizards. They take this stuff *very* seriously.

They'll almost certainly need both example cards and some kind of paper trail.

[Samite Healer]

My buddy is already working on the situation trying to get ebay to ban him.

@Jacob:  WotC won't do squat, it's just the way they are most of the time.

[Jacob Orlove]

Oh, I may be thinking of them shutting down actual printing presses, rather than rebacked proxies.

[RaleighNCTourneys]

I got my money back a few days ago. It doesn't impress me that he refunded my money because I assume the only reason he does it is so that he doesn't get negative feedback and can continue scamming. I would have considered leaving negative feedback, but I use my parent's account and I do not want to get them any negative. If anyone sees this name or address... it's probably a fake card he is selling.

Michael Phillips
6631 Reeves Rd.
Jordan, NY 13080

His # is 325-689-9705 and his father's name is Rick.

I called his house before I got my money back and his sister answered. I asked for Rick first and then Michael. They both weren't there at the time (it was in the middle of Saturday) but Michael does infact live there and the number is listed under Rick (his father?).

What do people think about calling his household and letting his parents know that he is scamming people out of thousands of dollars?