Sliver Aggro (BWr)

[Anusien]

I was listening to a Top8Magic podcast, and they started talking about Slivers in Standard; and I got really enthused by the idea of playing Vindicate Sliver in T2.  I took Panda Connection as a base, and just played some creatures, many of whom are more powerful or get better in multiples.  I'm starting with this core:



// Lands
    4  Godless Shrine
    3  Sacred Foundry
    3  Orzhov Basilica
    2  Flagstones of Trokair
    2 Swamp
    1  Gemstone Caverns
    4  Blood Crypt
    4  Caves of Koilos

// Creatures
    2  Martyr of Sands
    4  Cautery Sliver
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Sedge Sliver
    4  Sinew Sliver
    4  Necrotic Sliver

// Spells
    4  Temporal Isolation
    3  Faith's Fetters
    2  Persecute
    2  Psychotic Episode
    4  Castigate

Anyway, thoughts?

[Nastaboi]

I think you'd better with one Gemstone Mine than only one Gemstone Caverns. 

Well, I'm not very sold on Psychotic Episode. Three mana Duress isn't that hot. Extirpate maybe?

How is your curve? Your spells aren't that cheap so you might end up taking lot of damage from confidant and lands. And most of your creatures have activated abilities that require mana.

Anyhow, the deck seems quite powerful with very strong cards.

[andrewpate]

This is very similar to something my team has been working on.  We built this in an AIM window in about 5 minutes, so that's what we named it after it 6-0ed a Magic-League.com 8-man in its raw form.  This is after some additional tuning:

5 Minutes

Maindeck:

4 Blood Crypt
1 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Godless Shrine
1 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Sulfurous Springs
1 Swamp

4 Cautery Sliver
4 Dark Confidant
4 Necrotic Sliver
4 Sedge Sliver
4 Sidewinder Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver


4 Castigate
4 Lightning Helix
4 Mortify
2 Rise // Fall

Sideboard:

4 Deathmark
3 Hide // Seek
3 Persecute
2 Rise // Fall
3 Volcanic Hammer

I think that the power of the R/W/B Sliver core is pretty obvious, and I was not at all surprised to see Anusien's list so close to ours.  I think that the rest of the deck after the Slivers + Dark Confidant is where the deck gets more difficult to build.  Some thoughts:

Removal Enchantments:
I do not think that these are good in the deck.  Or rather, I think that they are good but not as good as some other things.  The lifegain from Faith's Fetters is already negated if you draw it off Confidant, and 4 mana is too much to spend on a removal spell in many situations, even if it does handle utility creatures.  The very low curve of this deck is one of its strengths.  And while Temporal Isolation is certainly much cheaper, it is not a perfect fix since opposing Confidants can still draw, a Selesnya Guildmage or Dralnu, Lich Lord can still be activated, etc.  Mortify and Lightning Helix do almost everything you would normally do with these cards for an average of half a mana less, and they have the added benefit of doing something relevant against creatures that aren't worried about attacking.  The one situation in which the enchantments are clearly better is against Akroma, but the sideboard should show you that Solar Flare is not a concern for this build.  If you see a lot of that, Temporal Isolation (or even Condemn) could find a spot.  Also, note that Necrotic Sliver allows any of the monowhite Slivers to kill Akroma right away.

Discard:
Obviously, the question here is what else to run, with every discard spell tied for worst compared to Castigate.  That said, I would tend to agree that Psychotic Episode is suboptimal.  Fall is almost certainly better.  Maybe Episode it would be okay if you were trying to combo it with Mindlash Sliver, but two bad cards don't make a good one.  Persecute is a great option, although we initially shied away from the 2BB cost.  The other two copies of Rise // Fall (which can occasionally be cast as Rise off a Gemstone Mine) come in when you need more discard.  This has been enough so far.  If Pickles and friends become prevalent in the meta, which they currently are, Persecute starts looking much better, but I can't see why I'd want Episode.

Deathmark:
I don't see why this card isn't getting played in more sideboards.  It's great against MGA, Scryb & Force, and any of the Boros-based aggro decks.  It kills Loxodon Hierarch, Spectral Force, and any number of various weenies and problematic creatures.  I'd really suggest trying a few out right away.

[Anusien]

Like I said, I built it out of a Panda Connection shell, and I'd belive your core is stronger (although I'm a huuuuuge fan of Faith's Fetters).  That said, I'm not sure how good Sidewinder Sliver is.  *Shrug* I'll take your core and start testing as a starting point.

I really dislike Gemstone Mine as a land in a deck like this, since you're extremely mana hungry, and I think you need at least a few bouncelands to help your mana.  Also, the 1 Gemstone Caverns seems like it could be randomly good, but you don't have a way to get rid of it like the Compulsive Research decks can.

That's a lot of removal, and I'm really skeptical that you need that much.  I'm wondering if you couldn't support something like Rough // Tumble.  How good do we expect Pyroclasm effects to be (since you can roll right through it)?  I also definitely think you want Persecute main, since it is just soo backbreaking.

[Titanium Dragon]

Like I said, I built it out of a Panda Connection shell, and I'd belive your core is stronger (although I'm a huuuuuge fan of Faith's Fetters).  That said, I'm not sure how good Sidewinder Sliver is.  *Shrug* I'll take your core and start testing as a starting point.

I really dislike Gemstone Mine as a land in a deck like this, since you're extremely mana hungry, and I think you need at least a few bouncelands to help your mana.  Also, the 1 Gemstone Caverns seems like it could be randomly good, but you don't have a way to get rid of it like the Compulsive Research decks can.

That's a lot of removal, and I'm really skeptical that you need that much.  I'm wondering if you couldn't support something like Rough // Tumble.  How good do we expect Pyroclasm effects to be (since you can roll right through it)?  I also definitely think you want Persecute main, since it is just soo backbreaking.

I agree that Sidewinder Sliver is the weakest sliver in the deck. His biggest upside is his ability to trade with a grizzly bear on the offensive, and if you've got out a Sedge or Sinew Sliver, you can trade him with a Watchwolf or Elephant. His biggest downside is that he is pretty bad without other slivers to support him; he's the sliver who most breaks the "Don't run bad slivers" rule. That being said, a 1/1 flanker is hardly bad, he's just not amazing. I'm not really sure what would be better than him.

As an aside, it is worth noting that this deck is totally tribal T2 legal.

I think the main issue with the deck is optimization; it may be that ultimately some other sliver (perhaps the 2/2 RB sliver, perhaps something else) would be better. The balance of removal is also important. I don't think 8 slots (12 counting necrotic) is too much, nor do I think the 6 discard is too much; you absolutely need the discard, and the removal is great. I agree that Persecute is a wonderfully back-breaking card, especially if people run janky decks like MBC or MGA.

[andrewpate]

I think the main issue with the deck is optimization; it may be that ultimately some other sliver (perhaps the 2/2 RB sliver, perhaps something else) would be better.

That's an interesting point.  With Ghostflame Sliver in play, any Sliver can shoot down Akroma with Necrotic Sliver's ability, and anything like a Paladin en-Vec doesn't work.  That's probably worth testing in place of the Sidewinder Slivers, although, as TD points out, their ability is also relevant in a decent number of games.  I would say that the Flanking is better, but a Grizzly Bears is better than an Eager Cadet.

@Anusien
I see your point about Gemstone Mine, and I have seen this problem in testing.  Interestingly, you suggest bouncelands, which actually make the Mine better!  It might be worth testing with 2 bouncelands and 2 Gemstone Mines, and also with a couple of bouncelands and no Mines.  I'll give both a look.

[Nightfall]

I think these decks really want Mana Tithe somehwere in the 75.  Any white aggro deck needs it against Wrath and Damnation.  Either you counter their removal or you force them to hold off for a turn because they fear your counter.  Either way, it should translate to a good amount of added damage against control.

Also, I've been working on a highly disruptive version that also runs Boom//Bust.  Since white is already heavily played, tweaking hte base to have 4 Flagstones helps the early Boom plan to also push wrath back a turn.  This is in addition to the normal discard of castigate and/or Fall.  If the meta shakes out as very control orientd with wrath and damnation being the defining cards, I think the disruption heavy build will be the way to go.

[TranQuillum]

Hi

Should Cloud Key be an idea?

Greetings,
Kees

Please don't necro months-old threads, especially with so little content of your own.
-Godder