Meandeck Gifts versus Grim Long play situation

[meadbert]

So I am playing Meandeck Gifts versus Grim Long and the following situation arises.  For reference the Gifts list I was playing:
Have:
Fact or Fiction
full set of Gifts/Scroll
Rebuild
Chain
3 Misdirection
Burning Wish

Don't Have:
Hurkles
Repeal
Vamp Tutor
Tendrils of Agony
Empty the Warrens
Skeletal Scrying

Although Misdirection is very good in a great number of matchups Grim Long is one matchup where I wish it were something else.

Anyway I am on the draw and my oppening hand is:
Merchant Scroll
Polluted Delta
Mana Drain
Mana Crypt
Black Lotus
Tolarian Academy
Flooded Strand

This hand is very keepable.

My opponent keeps his hand.

He starts by playing Gemstone Mine and Mox Pearl.  Then he Time Walks.  Then he removes Elvish Spirit Guide from the game and plays Xantid Swarm.

Next turn he swings with Swarm and uses Gemstone Mine to Brainstorm.  Then he play Mox Jet, Cabal Ritual and Necropotence.  He Necros for 10 dropping to 10 life and discards Duress and Chain of Vapor.  He passes the turn.

I draw Brainstorm so my hand is:
Merchant Scroll
Polluted Delta
Mana Drain
Mana Crypt
Black Lotus
Tolarian Academy
Flooded Strand
Brainstorm

At first I thought I had come across a case where I needed a main deck Tendrils of Agony to win.  The first thought I had was:
Merchant Scroll->Mystical
Mystial->Tendrils
Brainstorm
Tendrils.
This had sufficient storm and only cost a total of 6 mana.  Unfortunately colors are a problem.  I need 3 blue and 2 black for the above chain.
If I tap Black Lotus for Black then Academy only produce 2 Blue.  If I use Lotus for Blue then I am short on black.  If I fetch an Underground Sea then I still only have 1 Black.

The second thought I had was to Scroll up Chain of Vapor and Bounce Xantid.  Then I could have Drain mana up if my opponent went for the win.  Presumably he would replay Xantid and wait but that would at least buy me a turn.  I did not like this.  After all he could have another Duress in hand.  I decided to go for the win which might have been wrong.

Anyway my next thought was should I brainstorm first or Scroll up Ancestral first.  I Scrolled for Ancestal, Ancestralled and Brainstomed figuring that either way I put 2 cards back.

Here is how it went down.
I played Tolarian Academy, Mana Crypt and Black Lotus.
I then tapped Academy for uu and Mana Crypt for 2.
I Merchant Scrolled for Ancestral Recall and played it with 1 floating.
I draw Island, Tinker and Mox Ruby.
I play Ruby and crack it for red.  R1 floating.
I crack Black Lotus for blue. RUUU1 floating.
I brainstorm into Yawgmoth's Will, Lotus Petal and Mana Drain.
I throw back a Mana Drain and a land.

My hand is now:
Flooded Strand
Island
Tinker
Yawgmoth's Will
Lotus Petal
Mana Drain
I have RUU1 floating in my mana pool.
I still cannot see a way to win so I will have to Will.
I Tinker out Mana Crypt for Mana Vault.  U floating.
I tap Mana Vault for 3. U3 floating.
I play Petal and tap for B. BU3 floating.
I play Yawgmoth's Will.  U1 floating.
I play back Black Lotus, Lotus Petal and Mana Crypt.
I am 1 mana shy of being able to Tinker and Timewalk.  I would have to cast:
Merchant Scroll, Mystical Tutor, Ancestral Recall, Tinker and Timewalk
That costs 9 mana.  I only have 8 mana available.  I also cannot Burning Wish for Tendrils.
Even if I had a Tendrils in the main I still do not have a win that I see.  I figure I better Ancestral again and hope to see something good. 
At this point even a Chain of Vapor or Rebuild would be good.
I Ancestral Recall with 1 floating and see Sol Ring, Mystical Tutor and Island.
My luck continues.  I play Sol Ring.
I tap Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Black Lotus and Lotus Petal for UUUU4.
I Mystical Tutor for Time Walk. UUU4 floating.
I brainstorm into TimeWalk Merchant Scroll and Gifts Ungiven. I put back two lands.  UU4 floating.
I play Time Walk.  U3 floating.
I Tinker out Mana Vault for Colosus. 1 Floating.
I burn for 1 and swing for the win the next turn.

Anyway, everything worked out because I top decked Lotus Petal, Yawgmoth's Will and Mystical Tutor right when I needed to but I wonder if I could have already achieved the win earlier but I could not see it.  I also wonder if I could have had a win earlier if I played a different build.

[roberts91rom]

You ripped everything you could have ever needed off the top good job.

I don't think there is are any deck changes that would allow a win with Tendrils except for one. If those Mana Drains were Dark Rituals instead, you would have had enough to win with Tendrils on the spot. I guess that is why Ritual Gifts is faster.

Congrats on the absolut ballz again.

[meadbert]

So in general is it better to go Scroll, Ancestral and Brainstorm or Brainstorm, Scroll Ancestral.

In general if I am not trying to win on the spot then I am more inclined to open with Brainstorm.  This is definitely true if Merchant Scroll is my only shuffle  effect.

Still, with Gifts you play Ancestral Recall and then Brainstorm you are very likely to draw into a shuffle effect.  It might be a land which you cannot use till next turn in which case you only get to throw back one sub optimal card.

When I am trying to combo out on the spot I generally lead with Ancestral Recall.  Here is my reasoning.  Either way I draw 6 cards.  Either way I throw 2 back.  The difference is if I lead with Brainstorm then my Ancestral Recall is played after I have thrown back two suboptimal cards.  This ever so slightly increases the chance that I draw into those bad cards again.  If I play Ancestral first then I get to play Brainstorm with a better library.

An advantage of playing Brainstorm first is that Scrolling for Ancestral might not be optimal.  For instance if I Brainstorm into Jet, Sapphire and Rebuild then it all of a sudden it makes more sense to Scroll for Gifts.  If I draw Jet Sapphire Gifts then it might make more sense to Scroll for Rebuild.

I definitely got lucky.  My opening hand was good and then I kept top decking almost exactly what I needed.  Getting Will and Petal at once was just crazy lucky.

I wonder if there is a way to win in that case without getting lucky.  Could a more skilled player with a different build have found a way to win for sure earlier.

 

[MaxxMatt]

On a general note, I would use BS before Ancestral if I can suspect opponents Mis-D.
BS could allow you to find FoW or Mis-D ( you have 7 of them in your deck ) to protect Ancestral in a better way.

Talking about your specific example, opponent's game/hand/board situation was SO strong that you could have won ONLY with the maximum amount of cards seen in a single turn HOPING that he didn't keep some 0cc-counters ready to be played.

BS+Ancestral are 4 cards seen if you cannot optimize a fetch or a tutor.
Ancestral + BS are, instead 6, and this specific terrific game situation forced you to play in a less conservative, rewarding you with a good win.

Brainstorm
Merchant Scroll
Polluted Delta
Mana Drain
Mana Crypt
Black Lotus
Tolarian Academy
Flooded Strand

You could have played BS+Fetch+Ancestral in order to see 6 cards and optimize BS anyway, but you would have loss the ability to play and win through T.Academy.
I would have played exactly as you, but expecting to lose the game because that specific lucky pile of spells would never represent anymore in real life

[Zarathustra]

Anyway I am on the draw and my oppening hand is:
Merchant Scroll
Polluted Delta
Mana Drain
Mana Crypt
Black Lotus
Tolarian Academy
Flooded Strand

This hand is very keepable.

Wow.  I wish my opening hands looked like this all the time.

Here is how it went down.
I played Tolarian Academy, Mana Crypt and Black Lotus.
I then tapped Academy for uu and Mana Crypt for 2.
I Merchant Scrolled for Ancestral Recall and played it with 1 floating.
I draw Island, Tinker and Mox Ruby.
I play Ruby and crack it for red.  R1 floating.
I crack Black Lotus for blue. RUUU1 floating.
I brainstorm into Yawgmoth's Will, Lotus Petal and Mana Drain.
I throw back a Mana Drain and a land.

My hand is now:
Flooded Strand
Island
Tinker
Yawgmoth's Will
Lotus Petal
Mana Drain
I have RUU1 floating in my mana pool.
I still cannot see a way to win so I will have to Will.
I Tinker out Mana Crypt for Mana Vault.  U floating.
I tap Mana Vault for 3. U3 floating.
I play Petal and tap for B. BU3 floating.
I play Yawgmoth's Will.  U1 floating.
I play back Black Lotus, Lotus Petal and Mana Crypt.
I am 1 mana shy of being able to Tinker and Timewalk.  I would have to cast:
Merchant Scroll, Mystical Tutor, Ancestral Recall, Tinker and Timewalk
That costs 9 mana.  I only have 8 mana available.  I also cannot Burning Wish for Tendrils.
Even if I had a Tendrils in the main I still do not have a win that I see.  I figure I better Ancestral again and hope to see something good. 
At this point even a Chain of Vapor or Rebuild would be good.
I Ancestral Recall with 1 floating and see Sol Ring, Mystical Tutor and Island.
My luck continues.  I play Sol Ring.
I tap Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Black Lotus and Lotus Petal for UUUU4.
I Mystical Tutor for Time Walk. UUU4 floating.
I brainstorm into TimeWalk Merchant Scroll and Gifts Ungiven. I put back two lands.  UU4 floating.
I play Time Walk.  U3 floating.
I Tinker out Mana Vault for Colosus. 1 Floating.
I burn for 1 and swing for the win the next turn.

Lucksackery FTW!

Seriously, nice plays.     I don't think I would have played this any different.

-DShell