Manalessish-Ichorid "E.K.M."

[EKM_Ichorid]

Electronic Kill Machine (Manalessish Ichorid)

Maindeck:
Land///7
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Strip Mine

Creatures///25
2 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Sutured Ghoul
1 Symbiotic Wurm
1 Plated Slagwurm

Disruption///19
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Unmask
1 Darkblast

Combo///9
2 Dragon Breath
3 Dread Return
4 Serum Powder

Sideboard:
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Riftstone Portal
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Pithing Needle
3 Ray of Revelation

I use maindeck Urborgs because they allow me to dodge Leyline and Tormods by first turn Cabal Rituals and hardcasting Spirits if need be. If I draw one in my opening hand, I can use Darkblast which is extremely helpful. Just the threat of being able to cast spells has seemed to give me a psychological advantage against alot of people. If they see the Darkblast hit the grave, they expect I have mana sources and they slightly change their gameplan. Urborg is awesome if I draw it in my opening hand or on my turn 1 draw, so I'm going to keep it for now.

Slagwurm dodges StP/Vapor and is a 3 turn clock, which is great in alot of control matches.. I don't know if it's lack of flying/trample/fear will be a problem.

Symbiotic is a good return target against combo because I can Dread it, sacrifice it for a Cabal, Dread it again, and Cabal as many more times as I can. It also creates multiple sources of damage against other aggro decks.

The convertable sideboard is usually for game 3, after I know how they are sideboarding against me. Sometimes, I sideboard game 2 if I know they are over-sideboarding in order to stop Dread Return. I remove Dread Return/Breath/Targets and play plain Ichorid. It works pretty good against Tormod's Crypt because I don't need to over-dredge.

I feel that the ability to disrupt almost all of the top decks (Stax, Gifts, Long, other Ichorid) is more important than winning another turn earlier. It still is very consistant and usually win before turn 5 or 6.

I've had great success against most combo because I nearly always draw a form of disruption in my opening hand and all my disruption hurts them, except Darkblast. I'd say 65-35, my favor.

Fish had been a bit of a problem, but I have learned how to play around Grunt and usually side out the Dread Return combo so that their Meddling Mages get misnamed. I'd say 60-40, their favor.

Stax is good game 1, and terrible game 2. I can win game 3 with proper sideboarding. I'd say close to 50-50.

I haven't had much testing against control decks that don't combo out for the win.

Any comments or suggestions?

[technogeek5000]

your matchups arent so great because your list is slower then most, i would take out the following

-2 (wurms)
-1 darkblast
-1 dread return

+4 Urza's baubles

[EKM_Ichorid]

your matchups arent so great because your list is slower then most, i would take out the following

-2 (wurms)
-1 darkblast
-1 dread return

+4 Urza's baubles

Wouldn't removing the Wurms make it almost impossible to consistantly return a lethal Ghoul, especially with only two Dread Returns?

[misslehead3]

then if you would rather add in something HUGE like leviathin or maybe greator gargadon as something to suspend and sac ichorids/nether shadows to g2/g3. Plus, you have a big discard-outlet 6/6 to be removing to the ghoul

[policehq]

It's generally hard to justify any card not to be a 4-of unless it is useful in the graveyard.

Thus I question the use of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Tormod's Crypt.

Is the second copy of Urborg really more effective than a Mox Jet, and is the first copy better than a Black Lotus?

You'll have to explain the 2 Tormod's Crypts to me. I rarely even play Leyline of the Void maindeck, and you have poor synnergy with Crypt and Chalice of the Void (the fact that you have 2 Crypts indicates there would be situations where you're digging with Bazaar for one, and by that time you might have played Chalice of the Void).

A method you could test to maximize the effectiveness of Urborg would be to play Petrified Fields. You could replace the 2 Phantasmagorians with Fields because both of the cards serve the function of protecting your strategy against Wasteland/Strip Mine.

Phantasmagorian is a fat black creature, so he's good to remove from the game, and Petrified Field recurs Tomb of Yawgmoth, Wasted Bazaars, or your own Strip Mine. Only testing will show you which is more important.

Since your alternate Dread Return targets are already not black, I suggest that you play Sundering Titans instead, because at least Titan will change the game state aside from lowering your opponent's life total in most match-ups. During combo match-ups and against decks that have maindeck Tormod's Crypt, bounce, etc. (Slaver, Bomberman), they can probably ignore any creature that isn't a lethal Ghoul. However, if they allow Titan to be returned to play, and answer him, you might achieve one or two Time Walks when you can kill them with Shadows and Ichorids.

Have you found Ray of Revelation to be sufficient against Leyline of the Void? I never have. A lot of people swear by Chain of Vapor, but I don't like its dissynnergy with my own lock permanents like Leyline of the Void (can't hardcast it) and Chalice of the Void (they'll have a turn to counter it and go off). I prefer Emerald Charm, but still it's a weak plan because of the possibility of double or even triple Leylines (people mulligan pretty nastily against Ichorid).

You might want to focus on the Tomb of Yawgmoth aspect of the deck and change your sideboard to include Putrid Imps and Carnophages and have a sui-Ichorid deck games 2 and 3, but you still need to watch out for Empty the Warrens and faster clocks that accompany Leyline of the Void.

-hq

[EKM_Ichorid]

I thought about Fields, but they seem slow. I'll try them out for the phanta-fatties.

Tormod's Crypt is a metagame call because I'm expecting alot of Gifts/Stax. I want to get atleast 1 graveyard hate spell into play, be it Leyline or Crypt. I don't often use spells that aren't in my opening hand, so the Chalice/Crypt dissynergy hasn't been a problem.

I like your Sui-conversion idea. I'm going to test it.

[EKM_Ichorid]

Maindeck:
Land///8
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine

Creatures///25
2 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Sutured Ghoul
1 Plated Slagwurm

Disruption///18
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Unmask

Combo///9
2 Dragon Breath
3 Dread Return
4 Serum Powder

Sideboard:
TOPSECRET

This is what I'm thinking about. Do you suggest running 2 Factories and 1 Field over 3 Factories?

[meadbert]

I suggest running 4 Petrified Fields.

I also suggest running 4 Myr Servitor.

[EKM_Ichorid]

I suggest running 4 Petrified Fields.

I also suggest running 4 Myr Servitor.

I feel that Petrified Fields are too slow to run in bulk. They take up room where other cards that can quicken/disrupt could be.

I don't know if I like Myr Servitor that much if I'm going to only run 4 colorless sources maindeck. If I were to run 4x Factory 4x Field 1x Strip and 3x Riftstone...maybe it would work. However, is the speed worth the loss of disruption?

[meadbert]

Petrified Fields have two uses.

First they protect you from Wasteland which is the main reason they are in there.

Second they Fetch Strip Mine on turn 3 which is disruption and that matters a lot since usually you win on turn 4.

Third they can be used to get a second Bazaar to ensure the turn 4 win, but this is usually overkill.

[technogeek5000]

myr servitor is only good in mana ichorids (you run no maindeck mana), its a good i dea but you have to be able to cast it before the other 3 come into play.

[EKM_Ichorid]

myr servitor is only good in mana ichorids (you run no maindeck mana), its a good i dea but you have to be able to cast it before the other 3 come into play.

What do you think of 1x Petrified 2x Mishras and then removing the Wurm for a Titan?

[Oedipus]

Why isn't Skullclamp used in mana ichorid decks? Seems pretty good to me. It's quite a bit of dredge just off killing one Ichorid that's dying anyway, or Ashen Ghoul or Nether Shadow, or Shambling Shell, or if you must Myr Servitor.

[EKM_Ichorid]

Why isn't Skullclamp used in mana ichorid decks? Seems pretty good to me. It's quite a bit of dredge just off killing one Ichorid that's dying anyway, or Ashen Ghoul or Nether Shadow, or Shambling Shell, or if you must Myr Servitor.

Seems like a win-more card. If you have 1 colorless to clamp a recurring creature, you have two lands in play. Most of the time, when there are two lands in play, you are pretty close to winnng.

[policehq]

your matchups arent so great because your list is slower then most, i would take out the following

-2 (wurms)
-1 darkblast
-1 dread return

+4 Urza's baubles

I want it to be noted that Mishra's Bauble is infinitely better than Urza's Bauble because the information given is less random; you see what important card they are hiding with a Brainstorm and what they are tutoring with Mystical/Vampiric.

-hq

[EKM_Ichorid]

I'm testing this:

Maindeck:
Land///8
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Petrified Field
1 Strip Mine

Creatures///25
2 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Sutured Ghoul
1 Sundering Titan
1 Laquatus's Champion

Disruption///18
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Unmask

Combo///8
2 Dragon Breath
2 Dread Return
4 Serum Powder

Sideboard:
3 Riftstone Portal
4 Pithing Needle
4 Feldon's Cane
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Needle + Cane = Pwnage of Crypt/Furnace
Urborg vs Leyline = HARDCAST FTW

[Grand Inquisitor]

3 Riftstone Portal
4 Pithing Needle
4 Feldon's Cane
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Doesn't this continue to make you autolose to Leyline?

[policehq]

If you don't want to lose to Leyline of the Void, then play a dedicated Mana Ichorid list.

A sideboard could be built not to "auto-lose" to Leyline of the Void for Manaless Ichorid, but it really just helps you lose-less.

I still highly disagree with Feldon's Cane. It's difficult to recover sometimes after a Timetwister if you've Serum Powdered/Flashbacked some Cabal Therapies and removed some creatures for Ichorids, and Feldon's Cane is doing that same effect to your graveyard and deck without giving you a grip of seven to recover. Feldon's Cane basically fills the disruption potential of an opposing Jotun Grunt staying in play for several turns.

I can't say I entirely get the Riftstone Portals without Ancient Grudges, either, and I think it'd be better to play 2-3 Tomb of Urami, use the sb Portals slots to fill up the Petrified Field potential, then a couple of swamps.

-hq

[EKM_Ichorid]

If you don't want to lose to Leyline of the Void, then play a dedicated Mana Ichorid list.

A sideboard could be built not to "auto-lose" to Leyline of the Void for Manaless Ichorid, but it really just helps you lose-less.

I still highly disagree with Feldon's Cane. It's difficult to recover sometimes after a Timetwister if you've Serum Powdered/Flashbacked some Cabal Therapies and removed some creatures for Ichorids, and Feldon's Cane is doing that same effect to your graveyard and deck without giving you a grip of seven to recover. Feldon's Cane basically fills the disruption potential of an opposing Jotun Grunt staying in play for several turns.

I can't say I entirely get the Riftstone Portals without Ancient Grudges, either, and I think it'd be better to play 2-3 Tomb of Urami, use the sb Portals slots to fill up the Petrified Field potential, then a couple of swamps.

-hq

I can play around Leyline by hardcasting with Urborg. By making all my lands produce B, I can hardcast.

I was thinking of Ground Seal instead of Cane, for Extirpate, but I would need to get a Riftstone into grave first.

Riftstones are there so I could cast Needle/Cane.

[policehq]

I can play around Leyline by hardcasting with Urborg. By making all my lands produce B, I can hardcast.

You're still operating too slowly to beat any competitive deck in the format. Waiting on 4 lands to pay 4 mana for a creature that might get 3 damage through and die at the end of the turn? Nah, won't work.

-hq

[EKM_Ichorid]

I can play around Leyline by hardcasting with Urborg. By making all my lands produce B, I can hardcast.

You're still operating too slowly to beat any competitive deck in the format. Waiting on 4 lands to pay 4 mana for a creature that might get 3 damage through and die at the end of the turn? Nah, won't work.

-hq

The thing is, not many competitive decks run 4x Leyline in the sideboard. How many decks like to run into dead cards like Leyline? I feel like only opposing Ichorid, SS, and Gifts/Long will run them. I can foce a fizzled storm on Gifts/Long with my hate, so a long game isn't too bad. Ichorid vs Ichorid is a decent matchup, and SS is always going to be my worst nightmare.

[policehq]

The thing is, not many competitive decks run 4x Leyline in the sideboard. How many decks like to run into dead cards like Leyline?

So, why the Urborgs again?

I can foce a fizzled storm on Gifts/Long with my hate, so a long game isn't too bad.

No, you really can't. Not against good Gifts and Long players. A long game is probably the worst thing for you. Cabal Therapy and Unmask do nothing to busted topdecks, which they have all the time in the world to accumulate.

I can't continue to reply to statements you make unless you contribute significantly more content. I'm amazed this thread hasn't been moved to the improvement forum.

Explain to me these things:
-The significance of 1 Petrified Field.
-The in/consistency of 2 Mishra's Factory.
-Why Phantasmagorian? He's soooo slow as a defensive measure.
-Is 11 Dredgers enough for you? It isn't for me.
-Under what circumstances do you find yourself Dread Returning a Laquatus's Champion?
-Some Ichorid players have already stopped using Leyline of the Void. You've added to that particular element of disruption with 2 Tormod's Crypts, which are dependent on being in your opening hand and weakened by an opening play of Chalice of the Void @ 0 (which you should do). How do you justify these six slots where other players won't dedicate any?
-Why Riftstone Portal over 2 other Mishra's Factory, or 3 other Petrified Field? Do you intend to cast a Feldon's Cane and Pithing Needle in the same turn?
-Have you not noticed that Feldon's Cane slows you down as much as Tormod's Crypt does?

-hq

[EKM_Ichorid]

Explain to me these things:
-The significance of 1 Petrified Field.
-The in/consistency of 2 Mishra's Factory.

2 Mishra's has been fine. It's not a key part of the deck, more of a way to beat down if I get grave-raped and to cast Cabal Therapy. It also helps with Returning, but its not essential. I like it as another way to Return without entirely relying on Ichorid and Shadow.

The Field is really only there as another back-up. What would be better? If it's in my hand, its great. If it's not, it's not. I could throw in another dredger, but it seems almost useless. I almost never have problems.

-Why Phantasmagorian? He's soooo slow as a defensive measure.

I believe we talked about Phantasmagorian on SCG...I'm not sure if I like him or not. He hasn't been much of a help.

-Is 11 Dredgers enough for you? It isn't for me.

I don't know why my list had 3 Thugs...I actually play 4. My list adds up to 59 also.

The 12 dredgers has been working fine however. I really only need to draw 1, and with 12 thats 1 : 5 cards, and if I use Bazaar, I'll have had seen 3-9 cards by then. Hopefully, I would have seen 1.

-Under what circumstances do you find yourself Dread Returning a Laquatus's Champion?

I also mentained that on SCG also. I wanted to use it if I wanted to attack first so I wouldn't lose a whole attack phase to a countered Return. I haven't use it yet, and I'm thiking about remvoing it.

-Some Ichorid players have already stopped using Leyline of the Void. You've added to that particular element of disruption with 2 Tormod's Crypts, which are dependent on being in your opening hand and weakened by an opening play of Chalice of the Void @ 0 (which you should do). How do you justify these six slots where other players won't dedicate any?

Your biggest enemys, in my opinion are a quicker Combo deck or recurring Crypts. I've found it neccessary in testing to have some kind of protection. With those 6 + Unmask + Chalice, I will almost always have some kind of protective disruption.

-Why Riftstone Portal over 2 other Mishra's Factory, or 3 other Petrified Field? Do you intend to cast a Feldon's Cane and Pithing Needle in the same turn?

In a hand with only Bazaar, it's awesome. I can't always expect to have another land in hand.

-Have you not noticed that Feldon's Cane slows you down as much as Tormod's Crypt does?

It does slow you down, but more often I could begin Dredging a turn or two later and still have threats. Shuffling sure as hell beats removing.

Besides that, I'm now testing 2x Extirpate and 2x Ancient Grudge in place of the Canes.

[meadbert]

A Riftstone Portal or two can have some advantages.  It allows you to dodge Sphere of Resistance with only a Bazaar out.  Also it allows you to hard cast a Pithing Needle with only a Bazaar out.  Casting the Pithing Needle with only Bazaar is actually a big deal.

[EKM_Ichorid]

I'm thinking of trying this deck out. It's a spin on Mana Ichorid.

LIFE/DEATH ICHORID

Land///14
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
3 Riftstone Portal
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine

Creatures///25
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Ancester's Chosen
1 Sundering Titan
1 Bolgardian Hellkite

Disruption///12
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Unmask

Combo///6
1 Dragon Breath
2 Dread Return
3 Life/Death

Sideboard///15
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Leyline the Void
4 Pithing Needle
2 Ray of Revelation
3 Ancient Grudge

I'm considering -1 Dragon Breath and +1 Bladewing the Risen. With Bladewing, I can create two threats, making it tougher for decks to answer the threats. Two flying beatsticks are hard to deal with, especially turns 2 - 4.

[LordHomerCat]

Why Life/Death over Reanimate?  Do you often animate your lands?

[EKM_Ichorid]

Why Life/Death over Reanimate?  Do you often animate your lands?

I'm using Life because it enables more Dredge Returning. I can often do this:

Turn One: Bazaar, activate [Discard Ichorid, Dredger, Random].
Turn Two: Ichorid on stack, activate Bazaar, Dredge twice. Put Ichord into play. Dredge on draw step. Play City of Brass. Play Life. Sacrifice lands and Ichorid for Dredge Return. Return Sundering Titan/Hellkite/Chosen.

Obviously this is ideal, but possible. It speeds up the deck a bit.

[technogeek5000]

Turn One: Bazaar, activate [Discard Ichorid, Dredger, Random].
Turn Two: Ichorid on stack, activate Bazaar, Dredge twice. Put Ichord into play. Dredge on draw step. Play City of Brass. Play Life. Sacrifice lands and Ichorid for Dredge Return. Return Sundering Titan/Hellkite/Chosen.

how is that better then winning on the turn you dread return with a lethal trampling hasting ghoul? I would seriosuly take those extra creatures out and put sutured ghoul back in. Otherwise you ichorid deck is to slow to be viable. A ichorid deck should have a clock of around 3-4 turns undisrupted. Your clock seems around the 5-6 turn range, this is way to slow.

[vroman]

heres how manaless ichorid beats leyline:
if you expect to face more than one opponent playing leyline in a tournament, play a different deck

[mox apricot]

ok i have a few comments on this deck list. first of i'm not completely upposed to the urborg idea. however, i don't think it's that usefull for the hard cast, or avoiding ley line(gemstone cavern and chain is really solid). also, fist turn therapy, bad idea, always play bazaar 1st, why slow your kill down, every turn there more likely to crypt.
i believe ground seal has potential, but you have to cut the combo, dread return can no longer hit stuff in your yard. i had a list that ran 4 seals, 4 ahsens and a ton of land w/ two filths sb. problem is even with the extra dedge for the seal, it was only a turn 4 kill. secondly i would never cut any dredger ever. i also agree that your playing one return to  many.
 i'm also not sure what your hoping to accomplish with tormod's crypt. turn 0 void mokes more scence due to time constraits. unless your mirror matching, picking through your deck takes way to much time and i'm almost always a loss if it comes down to it.
manaless ichorid. no offence, but i think the only reason a manaless build was ever viable was because of an entirly different metagame.
my thoughts on ichorid ar that as follows: when ever i lost playing ichorid to a non leyline it was always the turn befor i would be dealing fatal. play testing shows a lot of promis for the "slow them down" approach. chalice (good call by the way) buys you a turn from crypt, and root maze buys a turn in general(especialy witht he search lands that they usualy have about a 48% chance of being in opening hand). gemstone makes post board game possable again.
i like the hellkite idea, been working on a few t1 hellkite builds, but in something like ichorid, i'd board it for fish. the wurm makes little scence as well. At the time your casting dread return its usualy a mater of deal fatal imidiately opposed to taking another swing with the ichorids. so i'd play something that potentialy deals more damage then the ichorids could do unless it as a nice comes into play ability. leave play gets a little sketchy due to the needing a therapy for fodder.
the imps. i definately see there functionality if things go wrong, ie wasteland. but i might be more inclined to board them, sometimes the waste land isn't really the game lost the other end of the board thinks it is.
life/death. why?
its a nice list, i like the factories. the streghth of ichorid is its speed and brutal resistance to counter magic. you need to not loose sight of speed, count each turn, consider the numbing of damage being done and compare it to what would be delt with the ichorids... if u want to play a flyer like blade wing... idk i think id main deck tropicly island or undeground sea.. soemthing half blue and wonder, meh worst case senario you can still hardcast a chain of vapor