[Deck Discussion] 2.5c Grim Long

[desolutionist]

With the recent downpour that has been intuitive/intelligent deck design, I think it is time to share and analyze my recent successes (and failures) with 2/2.5c Grim Long.

Last month I piloted an early incarnation of crosslong through TMDX Day 1, posting less than spectacular results. (60/153)  I dropped from the tournament after losing to MDG during round 5 and began working on my Day 2 list based on my initial impressions.  The Force of Wills were cut; they seemed oddly misplaced as I was never particularly thrilled about pitching anything and they were wholly ineffective to warrant bad/pitchable blue cards.  The expensive Gifts Ungiven as a liberal substitution for Grim Tutor was terrible.  Not only does it cost 4 mana, but it also never gets exactly what you need; it is far too restrictive to be used in a deck that doesn't rely on Recoup - Yawgmoth's Will.  So with help on the phone from Evenpence, I sleeve up what appears to be 2c Grim Long with a red splash post-board for Empty the Warrens.  I claim an almost respectable finish (21/90), and convince myself that 2c Grim Long is currently the best version of Long.

3 to 4 weeks after Waterbury, I bring a tweaked list to a local Pearl/Shop tournament.  With Blue Bell being the highest concentration of Gifts and T1T, I main 4 Night's Whispers.  My misconception of the Merchant Scroll matchup misled me into believing that I can win on the back of card advantage.  The problem is that the Whisper logic only considers my opponent's counters rather than the entire opposing deck, which is exemplied beautifully in my match against Seth Levy (who for the second time knocks me out of contention for top 8) in round 5.  It appeared to me at the time that I was winning the games against Seth because I was successfully fighting through his counters.  But while I was preocupied with decaying his answers, he had established enough resources to go all in and win on the turn he plays a Yawgmoth's Will.  Against a good Gifts opponent, it can be identified that Forces and Drains are secondarily problematic and the primary threat is Yawgs.  I'm now experimenting with Extract/Coffin Purge/Tormod's Crypt as anti-Gifts tech to curve those difficult rounds against good Gifts players into my favor. (Which may or may not be the correct approach)


2.5c Grim Long

4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Black Lotus
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Tormod’s Crypt

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Mind’s Desire
4 Grim Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Memory Jar
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Necropotence

----------------------
2 Empty the Warrens
2 Rebuild
2 Thrashing Wumpus
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Sundering Titan
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Extract
2 Trickbind


Discuss.

[Gekoratel]

After seeing desolutionist's list from day 2 I have begun working on my own list that is pretty close to the list that he posted here.  I'll post my current list and then say what the differences are and why I have chosen them.

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

Enchantments
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain Of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
3 Grim Tutor
2 Infernal Contract
1 Mind's Desire
1 Imperial Seal
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Lands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Tolarian Academy

UPDATED Sideboard
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Orim's Chant
2 Wumpspot
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Planar Void
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island


Changes
-1 Underground Sea
-1 Bloodstained Mire
-1 Tendrils of Agony
-1 Demonic Consultation
-1 Grim Tutor
-1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Time Walk
+1 Imperial Seal
+2 Infernal Contract
+1 Island
+1 Swamp

My basic shell is a little closer to Grim Long opting to run cards like Time Walk and Imperial Seal, in addition it only runs 1 Tendrils because I feel that Grim likes seeing Tendrils in hand less than Pitch.  Other than the manabase the only major differences from the Grim Long threat base is the choice of 2 Infernal Contract over other Draw 7's such as Windfall.  In addition since I'm running only 1 Tendrils I can't run Demonic Consultation, I have yet to test the card so I don't know how integral it is to this decks strategy.  The sideboard is still in the works and is far from final.

I feel the biggest difference between our two lists is in the manabase.  I feel that if you are taking the path of fetches over the 5c manabase then you really need to have some basics.  While I don't like the setup of 5 fetches and 5 fetchable lands I still feel it is worth the sacrifice in order to have basics in the deck.  I've been playing with many a Becker mana-base so having the same number of fetchable lands as fetches feels wrong.  The only option is to cut the 2nd Underground Sea to squeeze in the 2nd Bloodstained Mire but I don't feel the additional fetch is worth removing the 2nd U. Sea.

[desolutionist]

I feel the biggest difference between our two lists is in the manabase.  I feel that if you are taking the path of fetches over the 5c manabase then you really need to have some basics.  While I don't like the setup of 5 fetches and 5 fetchable lands I still feel it is worth the sacrifice in order to have basics in the deck.  I've been playing with many a Becker mana-base so having the same number of fetchable lands as fetches feels wrong.  The only option is to cut the 2nd Underground Sea to squeeze in the 2nd Bloodstained Mire but I don't feel the additional fetch is worth removing the 2nd U. Sea.

Basic lands aren't appealing to me because they're weaker than Underground Seas and Bloodstained Mires.  Islands and Swamps provide some invulnerability to Wastelands and other mana denial strategies at the expense of consistency against other decks, which, with most good players abandoning Stax and Fish recently, doesn't seem to be an acceptable compromise or the appropriate metagame call.  Encountering Wasteland decks has become a rarity, and with Empty the Warrens and Thrashing Wumpus in the sideboard, it shouldn't be difficult to win at least two of the three games.

My basic shell is a little closer to Grim Long opting to run cards like Time Walk and Imperial Seal, in addition it only runs 1 Tendrils because I feel that Grim likes seeing Tendrils in hand less than Pitch.  Other than the manabase the only major differences from the Grim Long threat base is the choice of 2 Infernal Contract over other Draw 7's such as Windfall.  In addition since I'm running only 1 Tendrils I can't run Demonic Consultation, I have yet to test the card so I don't know how integral it is to this decks strategy.  The sideboard is still in the works and is far from final.

I don't think Time Walk should be used without Force of Will; it falls into the bad/pitchable blue card category.  In Grim, it is essentially a bad Repeal.  I also don't like the randomness of the Contracts.  They can potentially dish out the most powerful combination of 4 cards in Magic, but it isn't reliable enough to ride in an "all-in" situation because the of the risk of netting all mana sources when you need business or all business when you need mana.

[ErkBek]

Basic lands aren't appealing to me because they're weaker than Underground Seas and Bloodstained Mires.  Islands and Swamps provide some invulnerability to Wastelands and other mana denial strategies at the expense of consistency against other decks, which, with most good players abandoning Stax and Fish recently, doesn't seem to be an acceptable compromise or the appropriate metagame call.  Encountering Wasteland decks has become a rarity, and with Empty the Warrens and Thrashing Wumpus in the sideboard, it shouldn't be difficult to win at least two of the three games.

So why not play 5C if basics don't matter?

[Largent]

Basic lands aren't appealing to me because they're weaker than Underground Seas and Bloodstained Mires.  Islands and Swamps provide some invulnerability to Wastelands and other mana denial strategies at the expense of consistency against other decks, which, with most good players abandoning Stax and Fish recently, doesn't seem to be an acceptable compromise or the appropriate metagame call.  Encountering Wasteland decks has become a rarity, and with Empty the Warrens and Thrashing Wumpus in the sideboard, it shouldn't be difficult to win at least two of the three games.

So why not play 5C if basics don't matter?

fetch lands are tech.

[Smmenen]

Basic lands aren't appealing to me because they're weaker than Underground Seas and Bloodstained Mires.  Islands and Swamps provide some invulnerability to Wastelands and other mana denial strategies at the expense of consistency against other decks, which, with most good players abandoning Stax and Fish recently, doesn't seem to be an acceptable compromise or the appropriate metagame call.  Encountering Wasteland decks has become a rarity, and with Empty the Warrens and Thrashing Wumpus in the sideboard, it shouldn't be difficult to win at least two of the three games.

So why not play 5C if basics don't matter?

fetch lands are tech.

So is Regrowth and Xantid Swarm. 

[forests failed you]

Basic lands aren't appealing to me because they're weaker than Underground Seas and Bloodstained Mires.  Islands and Swamps provide some invulnerability to Wastelands and other mana denial strategies at the expense of consistency against other decks, which, with most good players abandoning Stax and Fish recently, doesn't seem to be an acceptable compromise or the appropriate metagame call.  Encountering Wasteland decks has become a rarity, and with Empty the Warrens and Thrashing Wumpus in the sideboard, it shouldn't be difficult to win at least two of the three games.

So why not play 5C if basics don't matter?

fetch lands are tech.

So is Regrowth and Xantid Swarm. 

Xantid Swarm only gets better once Extripate becomes legal in Vintage.  Regrowth on the other hand, becomes slightly worse. 

[ashiXIII]

Basic lands aren't appealing to me because they're weaker than Underground Seas and Bloodstained Mires.  Islands and Swamps provide some invulnerability to Wastelands and other mana denial strategies at the expense of consistency against other decks, which, with most good players abandoning Stax and Fish recently, doesn't seem to be an acceptable compromise or the appropriate metagame call.  Encountering Wasteland decks has become a rarity, and with Empty the Warrens and Thrashing Wumpus in the sideboard, it shouldn't be difficult to win at least two of the three games.

So why not play 5C if basics don't matter?

fetch lands are tech.

So is Regrowth and Xantid Swarm. 

You keep toting Regrowth in Grim Long, but is it really that good? When I was playing Grim Long, it seemed to be just about the weakest card in the deck and almost always got boarded out. It was mostly used as a crutch to get back a countered Will, and besides that it seemed very subpar.

[Implacable]

Basic lands aren't appealing to me because they're weaker than Underground Seas and Bloodstained Mires.  Islands and Swamps provide some invulnerability to Wastelands and other mana denial strategies at the expense of consistency against other decks, which, with most good players abandoning Stax and Fish recently, doesn't seem to be an acceptable compromise or the appropriate metagame call.  Encountering Wasteland decks has become a rarity, and with Empty the Warrens and Thrashing Wumpus in the sideboard, it shouldn't be difficult to win at least two of the three games.

So why not play 5C if basics don't matter?

fetch lands are tech.

So is Regrowth and Xantid Swarm. 

You keep toting Regrowth in Grim Long, but is it really that good? When I was playing Grim Long, it seemed to be just about the weakest card in the deck and almost always got boarded out. It was mostly used as a crutch to get back a countered Will, and besides that it seemed very subpar.

Regrowth is just a delayed threat.  GrimLong chucks dynamite at the other guy until he can't block it anymore, and Regrowth gives you another stick.  Pardon me for the metaphor, but it's accurate; Regrowth means that you are running one more threat instead of running a subpar threat to fill its slot.

[desolutionist]

Basic lands aren't appealing to me because they're weaker than Underground Seas and Bloodstained Mires.  Islands and Swamps provide some invulnerability to Wastelands and other mana denial strategies at the expense of consistency against other decks, which, with most good players abandoning Stax and Fish recently, doesn't seem to be an acceptable compromise or the appropriate metagame call.  Encountering Wasteland decks has become a rarity, and with Empty the Warrens and Thrashing Wumpus in the sideboard, it shouldn't be difficult to win at least two of the three games.

So why not play 5C if basics don't matter?

fetch lands are tech.

So is Regrowth and Xantid Swarm. 

You keep toting Regrowth in Grim Long, but is it really that good? When I was playing Grim Long, it seemed to be just about the weakest card in the deck and almost always got boarded out. It was mostly used as a crutch to get back a countered Will, and besides that it seemed very subpar.

Regrowth is just a delayed threat.  GrimLong chucks dynamite at the other guy until he can't block it anymore, and Regrowth gives you another stick.  Pardon me for the metaphor, but it's accurate; Regrowth means that you are running one more threat instead of running a subpar threat to fill its slot.

So Regrowth is better than the 4th Grim Tutor?  I don't think so.

[ashiXIII]

Basic lands aren't appealing to me because they're weaker than Underground Seas and Bloodstained Mires.  Islands and Swamps provide some invulnerability to Wastelands and other mana denial strategies at the expense of consistency against other decks, which, with most good players abandoning Stax and Fish recently, doesn't seem to be an acceptable compromise or the appropriate metagame call.  Encountering Wasteland decks has become a rarity, and with Empty the Warrens and Thrashing Wumpus in the sideboard, it shouldn't be difficult to win at least two of the three games.

So why not play 5C if basics don't matter?

fetch lands are tech.

So is Regrowth and Xantid Swarm. 

You keep toting Regrowth in Grim Long, but is it really that good? When I was playing Grim Long, it seemed to be just about the weakest card in the deck and almost always got boarded out. It was mostly used as a crutch to get back a countered Will, and besides that it seemed very subpar.

Regrowth is just a delayed threat.  GrimLong chucks dynamite at the other guy until he can't block it anymore, and Regrowth gives you another stick.  Pardon me for the metaphor, but it's accurate; Regrowth means that you are running one more threat instead of running a subpar threat to fill its slot.

So Regrowth is better than the 4th Grim Tutor?  I don't think so.

I definitely think Regrowth is better than the 4th Grim Tutor. I think you're over-rating the 4th Grim.

[desolutionist]

Basic lands aren't appealing to me because they're weaker than Underground Seas and Bloodstained Mires.  Islands and Swamps provide some invulnerability to Wastelands and other mana denial strategies at the expense of consistency against other decks, which, with most good players abandoning Stax and Fish recently, doesn't seem to be an acceptable compromise or the appropriate metagame call.  Encountering Wasteland decks has become a rarity, and with Empty the Warrens and Thrashing Wumpus in the sideboard, it shouldn't be difficult to win at least two of the three games.

So why not play 5C if basics don't matter?

fetch lands are tech.

So is Regrowth and Xantid Swarm. 

You keep toting Regrowth in Grim Long, but is it really that good? When I was playing Grim Long, it seemed to be just about the weakest card in the deck and almost always got boarded out. It was mostly used as a crutch to get back a countered Will, and besides that it seemed very subpar.

Regrowth is just a delayed threat.  GrimLong chucks dynamite at the other guy until he can't block it anymore, and Regrowth gives you another stick.  Pardon me for the metaphor, but it's accurate; Regrowth means that you are running one more threat instead of running a subpar threat to fill its slot.

So Regrowth is better than the 4th Grim Tutor?  I don't think so.

I definitely think Regrowth is better than the 4th Grim Tutor. I think you're over-rating the 4th Grim.

How can it be overrated?  What is your argument against it?

[ashiXIII]

How can it be overrated?  What is your argument against it?

My argument against it is that Grim Long does not want to see a lot of them. They generally want to see 1 and occasionally 2. I don't think I've EVER been happy to see a Grim past 2, and usually even the second one is bad. Sometimes, even the first one is unnecessary, although it's almost never troublesome (like numbers 2 and 3 can be.)

In addition to that, It costs 3 mana, and 2 of that mana is B. This makes casting it on the first turn very unlikely without a Ritual. At that point, you're using 2 cards and 3 life to get a threat to play on turn 2. Again, past the first Tutor, you almost never want (or even have) to waste a Ritual on a tutor. The obvious exception to this are the broken draws with multiple Rituals into Tutor into Will into Tutor into Tendrils. However, those draws ARE the exception and not the rule.

Almost all of the other threats in the deck are better than even the first Grim, assuming you can cast them. The reason Grim is even good is because it enables you to get the threat that best fits the situation, and it enables Will like no other non mana card in the deck (besides Demonic, obv.)

I think a 5-color Grim Long list running 4 Grims is definitely wrong, and any other Long list running the full set is also probably wrong, although not necessarily so.

[Moxlotus]

Basic lands aren't appealing to me because they're weaker than Underground Seas and Bloodstained Mires.  Islands and Swamps provide some invulnerability to Wastelands and other mana denial strategies at the expense of consistency against other decks, which, with most good players abandoning Stax and Fish recently, doesn't seem to be an acceptable compromise or the appropriate metagame call.  Encountering Wasteland decks has become a rarity, and with Empty the Warrens and Thrashing Wumpus in the sideboard, it shouldn't be difficult to win at least two of the three games.

So why not play 5C if basics don't matter?

fetch lands are tech.

No sense was made. 

They're only purpose now is to help give you threshold and shuffle after Brainstorm--hardly worth the great potential for color screw and missing out on Xantids.

[desolutionist]

My argument against it is that Grim Long does not want to see a lot of them. They generally want to see 1 and occasionally 2. I don't think I've EVER been happy to see a Grim past 2, and usually even the second one is bad. Sometimes, even the first one is unnecessary, although it's almost never troublesome (like numbers 2 and 3 can be.)

I can honor that Grim Tutor, in multiples, is generally bad but it doesn't occur often enough for me to embrace the chance of possibly not seeing any.  I want to see at least 1 Grim Tutor in my opening grip, and with only an average of 2-3 draw phases per game, anything more isn't too likely.

In addition to that, It costs 3 mana, and 2 of that mana is B. This makes casting it on the first turn very unlikely without a Ritual. At that point, you're using 2 cards and 3 life to get a threat to play on turn 2. Again, past the first Tutor, you almost never want (or even have) to waste a Ritual on a tutor. The obvious exception to this are the broken draws with multiple Rituals into Tutor into Will into Tutor into Tendrils. However, those draws ARE the exception and not the rule.

This seems to be more of an attack against the inherent fundamentals of the card rather than the justification for the optimal number-of.  I also question the validity of a situation where you are forced to play a turn one ritual into tutor and pass the turn; I at least don't do it often.

They're only purpose now is to help give you threshold and shuffle after Brainstorm--hardly worth the great potential for color screw and missing out on Xantids.

What relevance does Xantid have right now?  Almost every blue based deck is using 3+ Repeals.

[ErkBek]

What relevance does Xantid have right now?  Almost every blue based deck is using 3+ Repeals.

I agree with Xantid being less than amazing at the moment for different reason. Your statement of "3+ Repeals" is a just a little exaggerated too. I think a 5C manabase with Orim's Chant is definitely the way to go right now for Grim Long. Pitch Long and Gifts are both subject to race you, and should be boarding out their MisD's so Chant should come in since they can keep you alive or protect you from dying.

I just see no reason to run this over 5C long if you are not running basics in the main. In running fetchlands, you are opening up a huge weakness to stifle. Basics in the maindeck are truly the reason to run a 2.5C manabase over a 5C manabase.

[desolutionist]

I agree with Xantid being less than amazing at the moment for different reason. Your statement of "3+ Repeals" is a just a little exaggerated too. I think a 5C manabase with Orim's Chant is definitely the way to go right now for Grim Long. Pitch Long and Gifts are both subject to race you, and should be boarding out their MisD's so Chant should come in since they can keep you alive or protect you from dying.

I agree that Chant is quite amazing and will most likely find room in the board.  Exchanging the Badlands, Wheel of Fortune, and two other cards for a Scrubland and three Orim's Chants post-board seems too realistic to abandon fetchlands.

I just see no reason to run this over 5C long if you are not running basics in the main. In running fetchlands, you are opening up a huge weakness to stifle. Basics in the maindeck are truly the reason to run a 2.5C manabase over a 5C manabase.

That is a little ridiculous.  Stifle shouldn't be the arbiter of the better mana base.

[Gekoratel]

I think a 5C manabase with Orim's Chant is definitely the way to go right now for Grim Long. Pitch Long and Gifts are both subject to race you, and should be boarding out their MisD's so Chant should come in since they can keep you alive or protect you from dying.

The only problem with Chant against Pitch Long and Gifts is that both of those decks are going to be boarding in Duress.  The average Pitch Long sideboard has 3 and after looking at the top Gifts lists from Waterbury it seems like 3/4 is the popular choice in Gifts.  If Gifts or Pitch don't have the knowledge of Chant in hand then it is useful on offense of defense but if they Duress and see it then the effect will be very marginal.  They will either decide to Duress the Chant if they have counters to stop you or leave it and decide to take a threat card.  Also they may just have Force backup when going off but that's not a strong enough argument for any non split-second answers.  Is Chant a card to run in addition to Duress or as a replacement?

That is a little ridiculous.  Stifle shouldn't be the arbiter of the better mana base.

Personally I tend to agree with Becker that the 5c manabase is stronger if you don't have basics.  If I was to play my list without basics it would have a 5c manabase and I would drop the 2 Infernal Contract because they would be much weaker with City of Brass in the deck.

[Aardshark]

Pitch Long and Gifts are both subject to race you, and should be boarding out their MisD's so Chant should come in since they can keep you alive or protect you from dying.

Is chant clearly better than abeyance? If we're planning to use it against more controlling long variants (and perhaps gifts) as disruption on our opponents turn, the 1c seems like a small cost to pay for an extra card.  Admittedly it is somewhat more difficult to protect our own combo turn with abeyance, although the "expected mana" from the card offsets the additional cost somewhat. 

Note that some of Steve's old long lists had a single abeyance in the side: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=14156.

[Irenicus]

I just came from a tournament where I played 5c Grim Long with 3 Duress (4th SB) and 3 Orim's Chant (4th SB) maindecked. I went 5-1 vs. no Wastelands but alot of Gifts/TPS. I liked Chant alot, because it hasn't summoning sickness and works pritty well with Draw7's. In addition it can stop you opponent (only happened once, because normally I was in the winning position).

[Gekoratel]

I just came from a tournament where I played 5c Grim Long with 3 Duress (4th SB) and 3 Orim's Chant (4th SB) maindecked. I went 5-1 vs. no Wastelands but alot of Gifts/TPS.

I'd be interested in seeing your list if you would like to either post it here or send it to me in a PM.  You were running 6 disruption slots rather than the norm which is 4-5 so I'd like to know what you cut in order to make room.  Did you make the Top 8 and then do an 8-way split because you said you 5-1 at the tourny which is good enough to make the cut.

[Largent]

Basic lands aren't appealing to me because they're weaker than Underground Seas and Bloodstained Mires.  Islands and Swamps provide some invulnerability to Wastelands and other mana denial strategies at the expense of consistency against other decks, which, with most good players abandoning Stax and Fish recently, doesn't seem to be an acceptable compromise or the appropriate metagame call.  Encountering Wasteland decks has become a rarity, and with Empty the Warrens and Thrashing Wumpus in the sideboard, it shouldn't be difficult to win at least two of the three games.

So why not play 5C if basics don't matter?

fetch lands are tech.

No sense was made. 

They're only purpose now is to help give you threshold and shuffle after Brainstorm--hardly worth the great potential for color screw and missing out on Xantids.

I’m running a 2 color build with a 3rd color from the board (green or red) and I cannot remember a time where I have been color screwed with the build.

Aside from that I think you are STRONGLY under valuing the fetch land, helping you get threshold and shuffling after a brainstorm are infinitely valuable, it also thins your deck of land so you have a higher % to draw business (its a good thing) and makes you less vulnerable to wasteland strategies by fetching basics!


Basically, I can think of about a thousand times Ive needed to build threshold or shuffle away some jank after brainstorming for every time you've been color screwed or unable to get the green mana to cast the swarm and have it be detrimental your ability to como out.

[Moxlotus]

I’m running a 2 color build with a 3rd color from the board (green or red) and I cannot remember a time where I have been color screwed with the build.

Aside from that I think you are STRONGLY under valuing the fetch land, helping you get threshold and shuffling after a brainstorm are infinitely valuable, it also thins your deck of land so you have a higher % to draw business (its a good thing) and makes you less vulnerable to wasteland strategies by fetching basics!


Basically, I can think of about a thousand times Ive needed to build threshold or shuffle away some jank after brainstorming for every time you've been color screwed or unable to get the green mana to cast the swarm and have it be detrimental your ability to como out.
 

First, I definitely do not undervalue the fetchland.  I am a firm believer of the Becker manabase. 

Yes, I know that fetchlands help find basics, however you have failed to realize, THE DECKLIST THAT WAS POSTED DOES NOT HAVE ANY BASIC LANDS IN IT!  The poster stated he did not feel basics were necessary in the current metagame, which led me to ask why he was still running fetchlands if not basics.  Without basics the value of fetchlands goes down tremendously. 

So in this list the pros are:

fetchland:  shuffle away crap from BS, threshold. (remember, there is no basics in this list)
5color:  Regrowth, XANTID SWARM

Without basics, the fetchland base loses the biggest asset it has.

[Largent]

Personally I would never run a pitch list without basics, the ability to find basics may be  an excellent reason to run fetches but I would also suggest that it is on the same tier as its shuffle effect and threshold generator

[desolutionist]

I made some modifications.

- Demonic Consultation
+Imperial Seal

That is so easy to discover that it suggests conspicuousness or little need for perspicacity in the observer.

- Tendrils of Agony
+Empty the Warrens

Extirpate invulnerability and maindeck flexibility.

- Grim Tutor
+Infernal Contract

That is so easy to discover that it suggests conspicuousness or little need for perspicacity in the observer.

- Tormod's Crypt
+Time Walk

Time Walk acts as a buffer when "going off" and converts a Warrens@10 into a Tendrils.

[Smmenen]

There are alot of good ideas and good thinking going on in this thread.    Since I've tried alot of the ideas that people are bandying about I thought I'd throw my two cents in:

* Orim's Chant

My teammate Lyle thought of Orim's Chant before the Vintage Champs and I wrote about how good I thought it would be in my article that was written before the Champs and published immediately afterward:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/12553.html

quote:
 Imagine:

My opponent: Mind's Desire for 9.
Me: response, Orim's Chant.
My opponent: You sick mofo.

Or:

My opponent: Dark Ritual, Black Lotus, Cabal Ritual, Yawgmoth's Will.
Me: response: Orim's Chant.

After testing and playing with it, it didn't work out remotely as I envisioned.

In short, here is and what remains my analysis of Orim's Chant:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/12575.html

After a lot of thought and some testing, I decided that Duress was the best anti-Combo card for the sideboard. I discovered that although Orim's Chant was a total bomb if it resolved at the right time, it had the Stifle flaw. The Stifle flaw is this: the best anti-combo cards in the Long mirror are cards that both protect your bombs and stop your opponent. Only Force of Will and Duress really fit this mold. Both Orim's Chant and Stifle are only capable of stopping your opponent. In contrast, Xantid Swarm is the opposite: it can only protect your threats. However, since Control doesn't combo out faster than you, that's an acceptable flaw in the Control match. Combo can combo out before you. You need to able to protect your combo as well as stop them.

To that I would add another flaw.     Grim Long and all Long variants are very land light.   There were many games where I would have a hand with bombs and Orim's Chant, plenty of accelleration but only one five color land (say City of Brass).   What I would discover is that Orim's Chant couldn't protect my spells because I only had one land.   Duress doesn't have this problem because a turn one Duress can protect a spell played the next turn.   Thus, Duress taking Force of Will on turn one can help your turn two Wheel of Fortune resolve.   The same is not true of Orim's Chant.

Orim's Chant was great in theory, but very dissapionting in practice and testing.   

* 4th Grim Tutor.  I actually empathize with the attempt to use 4 Grim Tutor.   In theory it makes complete sense, and I don't even think its wrong per se.   If you look at the Grim Long game plan, it actually doesn't make much sense why you don't run 4 Grim Tutors - they have synergy.   The first tutor can find Will and the second can find Lotus to play the Will.   Grim Tutor also contributes to threshold and finds answers giving you resilience. 

When I first built Grim Long back in 2005 I cut the 4th Grim TUtor because I didn't want to draw two of them.  Now I think that drawing two is a good thing, but I can't bring myself to cut anything else for the 4th Grim Tutor.  All that is a long way of saying that if you want 4, there is nothing wrong with that.

* Regrowth:   Regrowth is a multi-faceting card whose cumulative benefits produce a card of enormous value. 

a) Without Force of Will and Misdirection, Grim Long variants are reliant on brute force to break through counter walls.   Regrowth is a card that helps you keep up the flow of threats by replaying a threat you've already played.  For instance, turn one Duress, turn two Wheel that got countered, turn three Regrowth Wheel and play Wheel.   

b) Regrowth and Lion's Eye Diamond.   In one of my matches against Rich Shay, I played turn one Swarm and Time Walk, then I played turn two Jar but my Jar revealed nothing I could play - I saw Desire and Bargain but I could only generate 4 mana.  However, I did get to play LED.  The last card in my pre-Jar hand was Regrowth.  I untapped and Regrowthed and response broke LED.   

c) Regrowth and Ancestral.   Ancestral is one of your most frequent tutor targets early on with Vamp, Imperial Seal, and Mystical.  Regrowth makes this play even stronger.

d) Regrowth Lotus is a green Desperate Ritual and generates storm.

e) The most important reason to run Regrowth is that you can aggressively play Will.    Grim Long rewards players who are aggressive in their stance and attitude.   You can play Yawg Will with a greater risk level.   If it resolves, you'll win.  If it doesn't, you don't have to twister like you do with PItch Long to get it again.  Instead, you can just Grim Tutor for Regrowth to replay it.   This has happened more times than I can count.

There are many other reasons to run Regrowth, but as I said it is one of those things that when you add up all the little reasons you are left with one pretty compelling case for Regrowth.   

[ErkBek]

Steve, you can always play Chant to protect your bombs from Countermagic. You seemed to completely neglect this.

I really liked envelop in the SB of Pitch Long for the mirror. It counters duress, counters almost every bomb, isn't MisD-able, and Pitches to Force.

[Smmenen]

Steve, you can always play Chant to protect your bombs from Countermagic. You seemed to completely neglect this.

What an ironic response.    Without being too cutting or harsh, I think it is you that ignored or did not fully read or grasp my post.    Perhaps the fault is mine. 

Here is what I wrote on this point in the post above:

“What I would discover is that Orim's Chant couldn't protect my spells because I only had one land.   Duress doesn't have this problem because a turn one Duress can protect a spell played the next turn.   Thus, Duress taking Force of Will on turn one can help your turn two Wheel of Fortune resolve.   The same is not true of Orim's Chant.”

After reading that now, it does seem a bit oblique. 

Let me explain a little bit better.    What I discovered in actual testing was that Orim’s Chant was surprisingly ineffective at protecting your “bombs from countermagic,” as you put it.

Here’s why:

Let’s say your hand is this (this hand is an example of the sorts of situations I faced)

Orim’s Chant
City of Brass
Dark Ritual
Mox Emerald
Elvish Spirit Guide
Wheel of Fortune
Grim Tutor

Now, do you see the problem?

Grim Long and most long variants run 11 to 12 lands.   There is a good chance that you won’t have another land unless you resolve one of your bombs or happen to be fortunate enough to have Brainstorm AND want to play it on turn one.

If the Orim’s Chant was Swarm or Duress you could go:

T1:
Land, Duress

T2:
Bomb

Or:

T1:
Land, Swarm

T2:
Bomb

However, with Orim’s Chant, the Chant cannot protect your bomb unless you have another land.   

Thus, that is what I meant when I said:

“What I would discover is that Orim's Chant couldn't protect my spells because I only had one land.   Duress doesn't have this problem because a turn one Duress can protect a spell played the next turn.   Thus, Duress taking Force of Will on turn one can help your turn two Wheel of Fortune resolve.   The same is not true of Orim's Chant.”

Now, was it that I was unclear?   I mean, perhaps I could have made that point a little more effectively, but as I reread that paragraph, everything that I was trying to say is there.  I write that the problem with Chant is that you sometimes only have one land.  I then say that this problem doesn’t exist with Duress because it is played on a different turn.  Then I reiterate this by saying that this is not true of Chant.   

Your statement, on the other hand is:

Steve, you can always play Chant to protect your bombs from Countermagic.

Always ??   In my experience, just sometimes.    Sometimes is a world away from “always.”   

But the problem is actually deeper than that.    It isn’t even just that you sometimes have one land.   

One problem with Grim Long is that some mana sources are much more important than others.    Spells that cost red, blue and white have to be played almost exclusively from your lands.   Black spells, like Duress, can be played off Rituals which also rely on your lands.    In essence, almost every colored mana has to begin with a land.   Thus, the problem with Chant.  Chant is in your most scarce color resource and is most needed when that resource is most in demand (i.e. when you are playing other bombs).  The same is not true of Swarm or Duress which are played on different turns very often or can be played off o Rituals or ESGs.   Thus, you can play Dark Ritual Duress and still go nuts.   The same is not true of Chant.   Thus, Chant can get in the way of even simple plays like Brainstorm.   

 

You seemed to completely neglect this.

Far from neglecting it, it was central to my argument against Chant. 

I brought this point up months ago, but the fact that you seem to either not agree with or not see the truth of it explains why you still propound Chant as a useful tool.   I tested it extensively and that is what I discovered.    Perhaps I'm wrong - perhaps Chant is as amazing as you claim.    The problem is that I wanted it to be good.  I thought I was walking into Gencon with hot tech.   What I discovered was a surprisingly awkward card that wasn't good at doing anything right. 

[desolutionist]

@Rewgrowth - Regrowth is a nice card, but I'd still argue that the 4th Grim, serving a near equivalent role, is better because it doesn't require the inferior, 5-color manabase. (which may or may not be the case)

@Grim - 4 Grim Tutors rarely generates negative results; I cut it soley for the purpose of increasing the bomb density.

@5c -  Another advantage, that wasn't mentioned, is that even though my manabase lacks the maindeck fetching-flexibility, it still retains the capability of siding into fetchable basic lands; something that 5c Grim is not capable of.

[ErkBek]

I totally missed the paragraph on protecting wheel with chant when reading your post the first time.

Your argument against it makes sense. My experience playing chant has mostly come from Legacy and Extended where it has been nothing short of amazing. In both of those formats, I've used chant to protect my threats, but as you displayed vintage is a different animal.

I'm a little surprised that chant performed so poorly for you in the combo mirror. My experience has been very limited with it, but I've found it very good. It allowed me to slow play my hand since I had double backup of FoW/MisD + Chant. However, Chant does get worse when opponents bring in duress.

I positive that chant is not worth splashing white for in a fetchland manabase. It seems to me, that fetching out a tundra/scrubland is a huge tell, or maybe just a huge bluff.