Poll: Which Card is the Best Candidate for Unrestriction?

[Smmenen]

Which card is most worthy of unrestriction?

The next restricted list announcement is in a few weeks.  It would be nice to be able to get the DCI to unrestrict something.

[Moxlotus]

I'm gonna find it hard for anyone to disagree with Voltaic Key being that card.  While most of the other cards could actually (even if the chance is small) cause some sort of problem, Key poses 0.

[Fortifitakitors]

Voltaic Key is the best candidate. Why was it restricted, is the big question. Any body know?

[UR]

Because of this announcement;

Type 1

Divine Intervention is unbanned
Ivory Tower is unrestricted
Mirror Universe is unrestricted
Shahrazad is unbanned
Underworld Dreams is unrestricted

Crop Rotation is restricted
Doomsday is restricted
Dream Halls is restricted
Enlightened Tutor is restricted
Frantic Search is restricted
Grim Monolith is restricted
Hurkyl's Recall is restricted
Lotus Petal is restricted
Mana Crypt is restricted
Mana Vault is restricted
Mind Over Matter is restricted
Mox Diamond is restricted
Mystical Tutor is restricted
Tinker is restricted
Vampiric Tutor is restricted
Voltaic Key is restricted
Yawgmoth's Bargain is restricted
Yawgmoth's Will is restricted

Removals from Banned and Restricted Lists
Our goal is to have as few cards as possible banned and restricted in all of
our formats. To that end, _Wizards of the Coast_(R) R&D and the DCI feel
that the five cards listed are no longer a threat to the Type 1 tournament
environment.

New Restrictions
Over the past year, the Type 1 format has been dominated by very fast
combination decks. Using these decks, players can win so quickly that they
have little or no interaction with their opponents other than a finishing
Fireball or Stroke of Genius. Although combo decks are an important part of
any tournament environment, they shouldn't be so fast that opponents can do
nothing to stop them. The new restrictions, designed to slow down fast combo
decks, can be grouped into three broad categories: fast mana, combo engines,
and combo searchers.

Fast mana:
Grim Monolith
Lotus Petal
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Mox Diamond
Voltaic Key

Combo engines:
Doomsday
Dream Halls
Hurkyl's Recall
Mind Over Matter
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will

Combo searchers:
Crop Rotation
Enlightened Tutor
Frantic Search
Mystical Tutor
Tinker
Vampiric Tutor

But right now those 'fast mana' things don't seem so hot anymore. Crypt, Vault and Petal should be on there... the rest can come off for all I care.

[carlossb]

None of them

[vroman]

definite unrestrict:
voltaic key
black vise
dream hall

probably safe to unrestrict:
grim monolith
mox diamond
time spiral

definite stay restrict:
entomb
mind twist(?!)
personal tutor
fact or fiction

[ErkBek]

definite stay restrict:
mind twist(?!)

Steve wrote about Mind Twist a while back and how it sucks.

Why Mind Twist Should be Unrestricted
98% of the time, Duress is a superior card.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=8443

[Smmenen]

None of them

What's problematic about Voltaic Key?

[JR]

I think there are a few cards on that list that can come off, but the two most glaring ones are Key and Personal Tutor. I would actually be a big fan off key coming off, because I think it would really get people trying new archetypes, etc. Personal Tutor is a bit shadier, but no one has even tried to run it since its legalization, and the more the metagame evolves, the more people are prepared to battled Tinker and Yawg Will. Sure people might have to take the tutor into account when building a deck, but I don't think that it would be so broken that every deck, or even one deck would be chomping at the bit to run four, with the exception of that Tinker deck that did well at Richmond like 3 years ago.

JR.

[dr.NASH]

I personally see Lbrary of Alexandria as being able to be unrestricted.
Edit: Just in time for a different thread to pop up about it.  Oops.

[OfficeShredder]

Merchant scroll to mystical tutor is nearly as powerful as personal tutor (and sometimes much more powerful, if you just want a blue instant).

I'm surprised chrome mox isn't on the poll

[dicemanx]

Steve wrote about Mind Twist a while back and how it sucks.

However, the whole discussion about why Mind Twist could be unrestricted hinges on the assumption that no new "Mind Twist" deck will emerge to specifically break Mind Twist and be a strong contender. If such a deck could be built, and there is a real risk that it could, then Mind Twist should arguably stay where it is.

Do you want to take a risk and unrestrict it?

Plus, you can make an argument for the restriction of a card, even if it is weaker than something currently played in the format (ie Mind Twist versus Duress, one of Steve's main arguments). We did it for Trinisphere, which wasn't strong (in the consistent/reproducible sense of the word) - it was extremely random and potentially game ending, but often it would do almost nothing. Trinisphere is not the kind of card that strong players gravitated towards, and neither do strong players gravitate towards a card like Mind Twist because of its inherent drawbacks. However, neither should be allowed to exist in multiples in t1.

[Moxlotus]

Do you want to take a risk and unrestrict it?
 

The same could have been said for Berserk, Hurkyl's Recall, and Doomsday.

[jro]

We did it for Trinisphere, which wasn't strong (in the consistent/reproducible sense of the word) - it was extremely random and potentially game ending, but often it would do almost nothing. Trinisphere is not the kind of card that strong players gravitated towards, and neither do strong players gravitate towards a card like Mind Twist because of its inherent drawbacks. However, neither should be allowed to exist in multiples in t1.

I don't know about "strong players", but I do know this: Trinisphere can be added into an independently existing archetype because it randomly wins the game on turn 1, and is pretty easy to cast.  That archetype, without exception, still runs 1x Trinisphere because it's that good.  Nobody runs 1x Mind Twist, and nobody has run it for a very long time.  So I don't see how the argument for restricting Trinisphere can apply to keeping Mind Twist restricted.

[Machinus]

You should have just taken Key for granted and voted on the remaining cards. There's no contest in this poll.

[netherspirit]

I voted Dream Halls.

While Key is obviously pretty much the safest card on there, it won't actually have an effect on the format; at least Dream Halls has a slight possibility of seeing a tiny bit of play.

[Yare]

Unrestrict:
Dream Halls
Black Vise
Mind Twist
Voltaic Key

Not sure:
Entomb
Personal Tutor

Don't unrestrict:
Fact or Fiction
Grim Monolith
Time Spiral
Mox Diamond

Unrestricted Key makes me the most uneasy of the "unrestrict" list, but it is probably it's time.  I just don't think those 4 cards above could really make a huge impact.  Vise might come out to play again, but I doubt it.

I voted Dream Halls.

[Methuselahn]

I know it sounds crazy, but I've wanted Strip Mine unrestricted for the longest time.  Sure, it may force Wasteland to become restricted, but it seems to me that Vintage should be able to handle 4 Strip/1 Waste as far as power level concerns go.

[Implacable]

I know it sounds crazy, but I've wanted Strip Mine unrestricted for the longest time.  Sure, it may force Wasteland to become restricted, but it seems to me that Vintage should be able to handle 4 Strip/1 Waste as far as power level concerns go.

Speaking as a Gifts player, that would make me weep.

Seriously, some of the cards on the B&R list are so weak that this poll really has no meaning.  I mean, Voltaic Key?  Come on. 

[dicemanx]

Do you want to take a risk and unrestrict it?
 

The same could have been said for Berserk, Hurkyl's Recall, and Doomsday.

Berserk and Hurkyl's Recall weren't risks, and Doomsday could have stayed on the list. We should follow the general rule of thumb that if there is potential danger, don't touch it.

I don't know about "strong players", but I do know this: Trinisphere can be added into an independently existing archetype because it randomly wins the game on turn 1, and is pretty easy to cast.  That archetype, without exception, still runs 1x Trinisphere because it's that good.  Nobody runs 1x Mind Twist, and nobody has run it for a very long time.  So I don't see how the argument for restricting Trinisphere can apply to keeping Mind Twist restricted.

This doesn't address the argument. I'd wager that if 4x Trinisphere were legal, the majority of strong players still wouldn't play Shop-Trini, because quite frankly Trinisphere is too hit/miss. As I said before, it can win games outright, but it can also do almost nothing.

Comparing what decks run singletons of restricted cards isn't going to get you very far. Look at Gush or Fact or Fiction for instance.

[jro]

This doesn't address the argument. I'd wager that if 4x Trinisphere were legal, the majority of strong players still wouldn't play Shop-Trini, because quite frankly Trinisphere is too hit/miss. As I said before, it can win games outright, but it can also do almost nothing.

Comparing what decks run singletons of restricted cards isn't going to get you very far. Look at Gush or Fact or Fiction for instance.

It's true that not all Trinistax decks ran 4x Trinisphere, but it was still one of the most played cards in one of the most dominant decks of the time it was legal, including a deck with 3x taking first at SCG Syracuse immediately prior to its restriction.  You can check its success yourself from Phil Stanton's old articles here.  And it still gets played today in that same archetype as a 1 of.  Point being that if Trinisphere were unrestricted, there's no doubt that it would show up again in multiples in Top 8s.  (Again, I have no idea what you mean by this "strong players" stuff; if a deck is showing up in Top 8s the way Trinistax was, I think "strong players" would do well to play it, no matter how random it is.)

All that being said, I know Aaron Forsythe said that they didn't ban Trinisphere because it was too good, but because it made games non-interactive and un-fun.  But it was still showing up in Top 8s.  If you want to apply that logic to keeping Mind Twist restricted, I think it requires producing some evidence that Mind Twist would be showing up in Top 8s if it weren't restricted.  What evidence is there?  I don't think there is any.  For instance, there's no decklist where Mind Twist is an auto-include as a 1-of. There's no simple proof of concept like with 4x Balance.  There's no relatively recent decklists using 4-of, like with Tog running Gush.  In fact, multiple Mind Twist hasn't seen play in over ten years (it was banned in 1995).

So I think an argument for keeping Mind Twist restricted has to fall back on the principle you stated of "if there is potential danger, don't touch it."  I think that's a sorry sort of attitude to have towards the Restricted list.  I much prefer the principle that people should be able to play with their cards.

[Machinus]

Twist makes decks run MisD or get blown out. It is splashable, scalable, and amplifies manascrew. That's not the kind of card the DCI is willing to experiment with.

[UR]

I'd wager that if 4x Trinisphere were legal, the majority of strong players still wouldn't play Shop-Trini, because quite frankly Trinisphere is too hit/miss.

The format isn't about what the few actual good players would play... it is about what the majority of people enjoy. Many people absolutely hated; Shop, 3sphere, evil laugh, go. Like jro said... it may not be the stongest pay, but it is uninteractive and not fun. The DCI also has the obligation to keep the format interesting and fun.

[dicemanx]

(Again, I have no idea what you mean by this "strong players" stuff; if a deck is showing up in Top 8s the way Trinistax was, I think "strong players" would do well to play it, no matter how random it is.)

Look, you're just not getting it. This is about Mind Twist. The argument to get Mind Twist potentially unrestricted is that the card really isn't that good, and something like Duress is superior. I made a comparison to Trinisphere, citing a card that really isn't that good (because of its inconsistency, and good players tend to stay away from inconsistent cards/archetypes despite the fact that you seem to think otherwise), and yet it was a card that had to be restricted because when it actually worked its effect was way too good. Of course Trini got played, and it made t8s. That has no relevance to the argument.

The format isn't about what the few actual good players would play... it is about what the majority of people enjoy. Many people absolutely hated; Shop, 3sphere, evil laugh, go. Like jro said... it may not be the stongest pay, but it is uninteractive and not fun. The DCI also has the obligation to keep the format interesting and fun.

Sigh. I only cited "what strong players would play" to indicate that Trinisphere really wasn't overpowered - it was too inconsistent to be part of a dominant strategy. Your "rebuttal" isn't rebutting anything in this thread.

Furthermore, what you just said supports stopping the unrestriction of Mind Twist. People didn't like Trinisphere and what it did when it actually worked, and they'll very likely have the same attitude about Mind Twist.

[Norm4eva]

Voltaic Key's still pretty good with Metalworker.  I'm no deckbuilder so I wouldn't know which deck would abuse it most of all, but at least in terms of talking about preventing certain opening hands - Shop/3sphere for example - keeping either/or restricted is probably for the best.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

Voltaic Key's still pretty good with Metalworker.  I'm no deckbuilder so I wouldn't know which deck would abuse it most of all, but at least in terms of talking about preventing certain opening hands - Shop/3sphere for example - keeping either/or restricted is probably for the best.

I'm sure the DCI still has Jon Finkel's deck from the 2000 World Championships in the back of their mind when people talk about unrestricting Voltaic Key.

9 Island
4 Crystal Vein
4 Rishadan Port
4 Saprazzan Skerry

4 Metalworker
4 Masticore
1 Phyrexian Colossus

4 Brainstorm
1 Crumbling Sanctuary
4 Grim Monolith
1 Mishra's Helix
4 Phyrexian Processor
4 Tangle Wire
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Tinker
4 Voltaic Key

Sideboard         
4    Annul
4    Chill
4    Miscalcation
1    Mishra's Helix
2    Rising Waters

Source

[jro]

Look, you're just not getting it.

That much I agree with.

This is about Mind Twist. The argument to get Mind Twist potentially unrestricted is that the card really isn't that good, and something like Duress is superior. I made a comparison to Trinisphere, citing a card that really isn't that good (because of its inconsistency, and good players tend to stay away from inconsistent cards/archetypes despite the fact that you seem to think otherwise), and yet it was a card that had to be restricted because when it actually worked its effect was way too good. Of course Trini got played, and it made t8s. That has no relevance to the argument.

Are you saying the fact that running Trinisphere was a very successful strategy at the highest levels of Vintage tournament play had no relevance in the decision to ban it?  Even if "good players" stayed away from it, it was clearly winning tournaments.  In the absence of any evidence that a 4x Mind Twist deck would place high in tournaments (or that there's even a deck that can do something consistently besides cast a big Twist turn 1), I don't see how concerns about non-interactivity or un-fun-ness matter.

[Godder]

Losing because of a turn 1 Mind Twist for 5 has little to do with fun or skill, and a lot to do with luck. I'd leave it on the restricted list simply because it's quite similar to Trinisphere in that respect.

[Moxlotus]

Losing because of a turn 1 Mind Twist for 5 has little to do with fun or skill, and a lot to do with luck. I'd leave it on the restricted list simply because it's quite similar to Trinisphere in that respect.

Shop trinisphere wasn't that hard to pull off.  A first turn Twist for 3+ would involve much more luck and cards.  I'd wager it is about as easy for Long or Belcher to get a turn 1 kill than it is for a Twist for 3 or more.  A Twist for 2 is just worse than Hymn to Tourach.  After using your Lotus or Ritual, you'd be down almost as many cards.  Workshop Aggro decks weren't affected when they layed down the Trinisphere--they lost no cards in the process. 

[Twaun007]

Voltaic Key's still pretty good with Metalworker.

If you think Voltaic key has synergy with Metal worker you should try it out with Door to Nothingness....Savage....