Poll: Which Card is the Best Candidate for Unrestriction?

[Godder]

Losing because of a turn 1 Mind Twist for 5 has little to do with fun or skill, and a lot to do with luck. I'd leave it on the restricted list simply because it's quite similar to Trinisphere in that respect.

Shop trinisphere wasn't that hard to pull off.  A first turn Twist for 3+ would involve much more luck and cards.  I'd wager it is about as easy for Long or Belcher to get a turn 1 kill than it is for a Twist for 3 or more.  A Twist for 2 is just worse than Hymn to Tourach.  After using your Lotus or Ritual, you'd be down almost as many cards.  Workshop Aggro decks weren't affected when they laid down the Trinisphere--they lost no cards in the process.

FWIW, Twist using colourless mana makes it easier to cast than Hymn, so even at 2B rather than BB, it would likely see more play. Come to that, MWS + 3Sphere only had about a 10% chance of being in the opening hand (NB: this is not an invitation to start probability wars), so it's not like it was something that was seen that often either.

[Matt]

Jon Finkel's deck

There is so much in that deck that is way more broken than Key. Monolith and Metalworker and 4 Tinker come to mind. Key should never have been restricted (given that monolith and mana vault were already restricted).

[carlossb]

None of them

What's problematic about Voltaic Key?

Nothing.
I´m my opinion it doesn´t deserve to be on the Restricted List.

But...

It would be nice to be able to get the DCI to unrestrict something.

It´s just that I don´t want Wizards to unrestrict (another different thing is restrictions) any card based on our opinions.
I´ve just seen the results of your poll, and the second card they want to unrestrict is one of the most powerful combo engines I´ve ever played with.


Why do you want the DCI to unrestrict something?

To shake up the format with a powerful card and make new tier1 decks with that card?

Because if the card is lame even as a 4-of, what´s the point of unrestricting it if people aren´t even going to play with it?, just for the satisfaction of making WoTC change the list?

[EKM_Ichorid]

With all the grave-hate around, I'd say Entomb is safe. WGD can't function because of the crazy hate against Ichorid/Gifts/Bomber.

[mogote]

Because of this announcement;

Type 1

Divine Intervention is unbanned
Ivory Tower is unrestricted
Mirror Universe is unrestricted
Shahrazad is unbanned
Underworld Dreams is unrestricted

Crop Rotation is restricted
Doomsday is restricted
Dream Halls is restricted
Enlightened Tutor is restricted
Frantic Search is restricted
Grim Monolith is restricted
Hurkyl's Recall is restricted
Lotus Petal is restricted
Mana Crypt is restricted
Mana Vault is restricted
Mind Over Matter is restricted
Mox Diamond is restricted
Mystical Tutor is restricted
Tinker is restricted
Vampiric Tutor is restricted
Voltaic Key is restricted
Yawgmoth's Bargain is restricted
Yawgmoth's Will is restricted

So all of those were restricted at the same time? That's totally mind-boggling. It makes sense that unrestricted Voltaic Key might be too good with both Mana Vault and Grim Monolith unrestricted but I think that those mass restrictions were a little bit too much and probably not tested in detail.
I'm sure that with 23 changes to the restricted at the same time there were too many possible combinations to thoroughly test the possible impact so they probably wanted to be on the safe side.

I voted for Voltaic Key as the obvious choice.

Also, I wonder if Gush would ever be a candidate for unrestriction. It was only used in Gro-A-Tog, Turboland and Stasis, right? None of these seem too frightening.

[adrienger]

Key is kind of obvious but...


What about burning wish? Does anyone sees a deck running 4 B.whishes when you can play 4 grim tutors? I'm quite sure the card would be played as four of in certain deck but its not stronger than options (namely grim) and could open build possibilities.

[OfficeShredder]

So all of those were restricted at the same time? That's totally mind-boggling. It makes sense that unrestricted Voltaic Key might be too good with both Mana Vault and Grim Monolith unrestricted but I think that those mass restrictions were a little bit too much and probably not tested in detail.
I'm sure that with 23 changes to the restricted at the same time there were too many possible combinations to thoroughly test the possible impact so they probably wanted to be on the safe side.

I voted for Voltaic Key as the obvious choice.

Also, I wonder if Gush would ever be a candidate for unrestriction. It was only used in Gro-A-Tog, Turboland and Stasis, right? None of these seem too frightening.

The restricted all of those because academy.dec had taken over the metagame and needed to be stopped.  Correct, there was no testing, it was a knee-jerk "wtf do we do now?" restriction list

[Implacable]

Key is kind of obvious but...


What about burning wish? Does anyone sees a deck running 4 B.whishes when you can play 4 grim tutors? I'm quite sure the card would be played as four of in certain deck but its not stronger than options (namely grim) and could open build possibilities.

Burning Wish
1R - Sorcery
Search your sideboard for Yawgmoth's Will and put it into your hand.  RFG Burning Wish

I would play GrimLong and only GrimLong, forever and ever, amen.

[Nastaboi]

Burning Wish also negates the use of popular Extract-style hate cards. No more worries for combo players about having their win conditions extracted or capped.

[diopter]

Key is kind of obvious but...


What about burning wish? Does anyone sees a deck running 4 B.whishes when you can play 4 grim tutors? I'm quite sure the card would be played as four of in certain deck but its not stronger than options (namely grim) and could open build possibilities.

Burning Wish
1R - Sorcery
Search your sideboard for Yawgmoth's Will and put it into your hand.  RFG Burning Wish

I would play GrimLong and only GrimLong, forever and ever, amen.

Not to mention that being able to play 4x Burning Wish actually translates to being able to play 4x Wish, 1x Demonic Consultation.

[rvs]

So all of those were restricted at the same time? That's totally mind-boggling..

A little off-topic, but some small sidenote is needed here: They restricted all those cards because they were in the one deck that everybody was playing, so just to be sure, they restricted pretty much everything they could!

Right now, Key would be fine, and Mind twist isn't a problem card at all. I'm not convinced Dream Halls should come off, it's probably best to just let it be. Black Vise might be interesting, I'm not sure.

[Implacable]

Essentially, this is my ideal B&R List (I've put some time into it):

    * Ancestral Recall
    * Balance
    * Black Lotus
    * Black Vise
    * Burning Wish
    * Channel
    * Chrome Mox
    * Crop Rotation
    * Demonic Consultation
    * Demonic Tutor
    * Dream Halls
    * Enlightened Tutor
    * Entomb
    * Fact or Fiction
    * Fastbond
    * Frantic Search
    * Grim Monolith
    * Gush
    * Imperial Seal
    * Library of Alexandria
    * Lion's Eye Diamond
    * Lotus Petal
    * Mana Crypt
    * Mana Vault
    * Memory Jar
    * Mind Twist
    * Mind's Desire
    * Mox Diamond
    * Mox Emerald
    * Mox Jet
    * Mox Pearl
    * Mox Ruby
    * Mox Sapphire
    * Mystical Tutor
    * Necropotence
    * Personal Tutor
    * Regrowth
    * Sol Ring
    * Strip Mine
    * Stroke of Genius
    * Time Spiral
    * Time Walk
    * Timetwister
    * Tinker
    * Tolarian Academy
    * Vampiric Tutor
    * Voltaic Key
    * Wheel of Fortune
    * Windfall
    * Yawgmoth's Bargain
    * Yawgmoth's Will

I'm very wary of unrestricting tutor effects, so even marginal cards like Personal Tutor should stay on the list.  Mox Diamond, on the other hand, seems very fair; I honestly cannot imagine playing it in any of the decks currently available, and it might even give Fish some random speed.  Most everything else isn't very controversial.

[nataz]

Entomb is far better then personal tutor.

[andrewpate]

Has anyone tried to build a deck running 4xMox Diamond?  I know that it doesn't see play, but when you can run 4 copies and rely on it more, the potential seems to be there for abuse.  I recall that at Pro Tour: New Orleans, the one Rickard Osterburg won with Tinker Stax, the Mox du jour was Chrome, but the Hermit Druid lists ran the Diamond to broken effect.  I'm pretty wary about unrestricting such fast mana without some preliminary testing.

[Cross]

Essentially, this is my ideal B&R List (I've put some time into it):

   ...
    * Stroke of Genius

Stroke is on your ideal B&R list?

[diopter]

Essentially, this is my ideal B&R List (I've put some time into it):

   ...
    * Stroke of Genius

Stroke is on your ideal B&R list?

Trinisphere is also notably absent.

[Implacable]

Essentially, this is my ideal B&R List (I've put some time into it):

   ...
    * Stroke of Genius

Stroke is on your ideal B&R list?

Trinisphere is also notably absent.

Eeek.  I copy-pasted this off a non-official site, which evidently sucked.  My bad.  Strikethrough = off the B&R list.

[adrienger]

Key is kind of obvious but...


What about burning wish? Does anyone sees a deck running 4 B.whishes when you can play 4 grim tutors? I'm quite sure the card would be played as four of in certain deck but its not stronger than options (namely grim) and could open build possibilities.

Burning Wish
1R - Sorcery
Search your sideboard for Yawgmoth's Will and put it into your hand.  RFG Burning Wish

I would play GrimLong and only GrimLong, forever and ever, amen.

Would you ever play burning wish over grim tutor? I wouldn't !

Yawg win maindeck + infinite tutor/manipulation effects (brainstorm...)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 burning wish

On the other hand, I can see the wish being usefull in a control deck.

Since grim tutoris legal, I don't see what explains burning wish restriction.

[Implacable]

Key is kind of obvious but...


What about burning wish? Does anyone sees a deck running 4 B.whishes when you can play 4 grim tutors? I'm quite sure the card would be played as four of in certain deck but its not stronger than options (namely grim) and could open build possibilities.

Burning Wish
1R - Sorcery
Search your sideboard for Yawgmoth's Will and put it into your hand.  RFG Burning Wish

I would play GrimLong and only GrimLong, forever and ever, amen.

Would you ever play burning wish over grim tutor? I wouldn't !

Yawg win maindeck + infinite tutor/manipulation effects (brainstorm...)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 burning wish

On the other hand, I can see the wish being usefull in a control deck.

Since grim tutoris legal, I don't see what explains burning wish restriction.

But why not play both?

16 Ritual
12 Tutor
11 Artifact
8 Discard
10 Lands
3 Random

GrimWish: Because BurningLong just wasn't good enough.

Obviously, this is hyperbole, but I think you get the point.  Having 2 unrestricted tutors only slightly inferior to DT would be ridiculous.

[rvs]

@Steve: I just realised I'm missing a poll option: What about Library of Alexandria?

[AmbivalentDuck]

To me, the only truly contentious card on the list is Dream Halls: it's "weak" relative to similarly costed cards, but it warps the game into a game that's definitely not Magic.  I'd unrestrict it only because I don't expect it would be played (much less abused)...  But that's not really a reason to unrestrict it as it wouldn't give any real depth to the format, just the potential for 3UU to bypass mana as a resource.

[Moxlotus]

Key is kind of obvious but...


What about burning wish? Does anyone sees a deck running 4 B.whishes when you can play 4 grim tutors? I'm quite sure the card would be played as four of in certain deck but its not stronger than options (namely grim) and could open build possibilities.

Burning Wish
1R - Sorcery
Search your sideboard for Yawgmoth's Will and put it into your hand.  RFG Burning Wish

I would play GrimLong and only GrimLong, forever and ever, amen.

Would you ever play burning wish over grim tutor? I wouldn't !

Yawg win maindeck + infinite tutor/manipulation effects (brainstorm...)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 burning wish

On the other hand, I can see the wish being usefull in a control deck.

Since grim tutoris legal, I don't see what explains burning wish restriction.

But why not play both?

16 Ritual
12 Tutor
11 Artifact
8 Discard
10 Lands
3 Random

GrimWish: Because BurningLong just wasn't good enough.

Obviously, this is hyperbole, but I think you get the point.  Having 2 unrestricted tutors only slightly inferior to DT would be ridiculous.

Uh, how would you find Will with Burning Wish AND Grim tutor?  It's either RFG or its in your deck.  Unrestricted Grim Tutors and Burning Wishes would not work well together at all.

[andrewpate]

@AmbivalentDuck
Dream Halls is much worse than other available options.  In order for it to be good, you need to be running a lot of blue mana in order to make an early UU.  Also, Dream Halls doesn't work very well unless you are running predominantly one color.  Blue is a good candidate for this not only because you are already running enough to get the UU, but also because it is the color of card draw, which is what makes Dream Halls actually work.  The problem is that you are now running an almost monoblue combo deck, a la High Tide.  How much better is this than High Tide when you rely on a 5-mana enchantment instead of a 1-mana Instant?  I believe that the power of extra colors, not to mention artifact mana past the point which would clog up a Dream Halls deck, is superior, even if I'll concede that Dream Halls will usually win the game if it resolves.  Pitch Long and Dragon are both better than a Dream Halls deck would be, and by a large margin.

[Smmenen]

definite unrestrict:
voltaic key
black vise
dream hall

probably safe to unrestrict:
grim monolith
mox diamond
time spiral

definite stay restrict:
entomb
mind twist(?!)
personal tutor
fact or fiction

What do you think is problematic about Personal Tutor?

[diopter]

definite unrestrict:
voltaic key
black vise
dream hall

probably safe to unrestrict:
grim monolith
mox diamond
time spiral

definite stay restrict:
entomb
mind twist(?!)
personal tutor
fact or fiction

What do you think is problematic about Personal Tutor?

I can't speak for Vroman, but my biggest fear would be if Personal Tutor enabled 9Tinker.dec

[forests failed you]

I voted for Mind Twist, not because it is the 'safest' card that could be unrestricted; but rather because I think it is the most powerful card on that list that would be 'fair' as a Vintage four-of.

In my opinion, this class of cards would have little impact if they were unrestricted.  These cards are all very fine cards, but realistically none of them even see play in Vintage except haphazardly.  Even if one could theoretically build a deck around them, would that deck be good enough to compete with the best decks?  I honestly don't think they could.

Voltaic Key
Dream Halls
Personal tutor
Fact or Fiction
Mox Diamond

I think Mind Twist is 'iffy' but worth a shot, I actually don't think it would have as great of an impact as one might think.  Nonetheless, it would be a useful tool to have.

I also feel that it would be a gigantic mistake to unrestrict:

Black Vise
Grim Monolith
Time Spiral
or, Entomb.

All of these cards lead to very degenerate decks in quantity of four.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Any particular reason why you *don't* think Fact or Fiction would be a problem?  It remains one of the best draw effects in Vintage and, as a 4-of, might overshadow Gifts.

[Implacable]

Any particular reason why you *don't* think Fact or Fiction would be a problem?  It remains one of the best draw effects in Vintage and, as a 4-of, might overshadow Gifts.

Gifts is 2-4 Demonic Tutors stapled together.  Fact or Fiction just gets you random cards.  As we understand more and more about Gifts, we find it to be more and more powerful.

[Twaun007]

Any particular reason why you *don't* think Fact or Fiction would be a problem?  It remains one of the best draw effects in Vintage and, as a 4-of, might overshadow Gifts.

Gifts is 2-4 Demonic Tutors stapled together.  Fact or Fiction just gets you random cards.  As we understand more and more about Gifts, we find it to be more and more powerful.

There is no truer statement than this. Gifts as a card has not even reached its full potetion in deck design and  power. We probably have only seen 50 to 65 percent of what Gifts Ungiven is fully capable of.

[zeus-online]

Any particular reason why you *don't* think Fact or Fiction would be a problem?  It remains one of the best draw effects in Vintage and, as a 4-of, might overshadow Gifts.

Gifts is 2-4 Demonic Tutors stapled together.  Fact or Fiction just gets you random cards.  As we understand more and more about Gifts, we find it to be more and more powerful.

There is no truer statement than this. Gifts as a card has not even reached its full potetion in deck design and  power. We have probably have only seen 50 to 65 percent of what Gifts Ungiven is fully capable of.

I don't think FoF would cause any problems right now, but thats because of the speed of the format, which has reached my limit anyways...i think things need to slow down a bit. Almost don't care how...ban will, or restrict some cards, aslong as it works!

Seriosly, the amount of broken cards on the list which are being discussed for CUTTING is insane!...
People are saying that you could unrestrict:
Gush
FoF
LoA
Mind twist
...some people are cutting necropotence...

That's just nutz if you ask me.. I think something ought to change, but that is just my opinion.