W/B hate deck, has he got any possibility?

[Ipnox]

Welcome to my first thread! I'm an italian player (i apologise in advance for my ristrect knowledge of the language) and i'm here for speak about an hate deck that i developed at home...probably it has the number for beying a tier deck; who knows?

By the way, let's speak about the deck list:

Mana: 21
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
4 scrubland
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
3 swamp
3 plains

The manabase is really solid and rarely i've some mana screw problem; it has 5 land discructor (4waste and 1 strip) and it also can play ONLY using basic land. There are not artifact mana card like "Lotus petal", Sol ring and Mana crypt because there are usefull in this deck, and 80% of the times you will prefear a land rather than an artifact like this.

Creatures: 16
4 dark confidant
3 kataki, war wege
3 true believer
3 withered wretch
3 kami of ancient law (2/2 cost= 1+W sacrifice to destroy an enchantment)

The creatures are not so much but they are though! The confidant is there for allow us a constant drawing, kataki is a great card against any spoiler deck (he also give us an hand against artifact.deck) and the believer is GOD against storm deck like Tps, Pitch long and Gift. The wretch is a 2/2 cost 2 and he has the great possibility to reduce a big Yawgmoth's will in something like "play land, pass". The kami is not a great creature but he's good against Oath and worldgorger dragon. The clock of this deck is high but it's not a problem because we are an  aggro-control deck.

Other spell: 23
4 Chalice of the void
4 duress
3 cabal therapy
3 sword to plowshare
3 planar void
2 orim's chant
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 vindicate
1 seal of cleansing

Ok, here the hate cards are present in a a veeery big quantity, the chalice is a beatiful card for lock spoiler.deck and for create a stand-situation (with a chalice with 0 counters and another with 1 counter...you know, it's hard for the opponent!  :lol:). Duress and therapy are the main protection from broken and them are utile also for increase our control on opponent's hand. The plowshare ALWAYS finds a target (oftenly is a welder, a confidant, Akroma, Razia and sometime even colossos) and the planar void is a dead card only against goblin. The orim's chant is a greath thing against storm.deck but even a great protection from aggro deck (like goblin ^_^). The tutors are essentials and the seal of cleansing added to vindicate give us 2 enourmus tech.

Now, let's pass to analyse the sideboard...

4 engineered plague
3 serenity
3 hide/seek
2 abolish
1 orim
1 stp
1 balance

The plague are there for stopping Goblin, against this deck the first game is always lost but in the second, our strategy changes in "let's defense our life point until we draw a plague" and i can assure you that CONTAIN goblin is not as difficult as someone can think.
3 serenity gives us the possibility of restart the match against any artifact.deck; 3 hide/seek are there for stop some winning condiction (like Yawgmoth, Tyrant, BARGAIN, COLOSSOS etc.), abolish is there for artifact and his chalice with two counters (the dead of this deck), orim gives us an hand against storm.deck and aggro like Ichorid, Stp the same and balance idem.

Now, the analysis is over, i apologise again for the language and i say you that this deck has seen many playtest.... in my humble opinion it has the possibility to became a new deck (even because he has many sideboard card starting sins the game 1) . I know that the american metagame is different from italian metagame ( in wich the greatest deck are: Tps, Gift, Oath, artifact.deck, goblin, more or less Ichorid and tang) but i think thath it could give this deck player's some satisfaction.

Now is your turn to speack 

Hello -Ipnox-

[wethepeople]

I have built various decks when the metagame is right, all similar to this before. Although, by far, the greatest ones are similar to the newest versions of The Mountains Win Again, or TMWA. It began as a mono red, then a white splash was added, and eventually a third color was splashed; black.

The black splash was primarily added for Duress, Dark Confidant, and Hide/Seek. Hide/Seek is a very strong card in many matchups. Although, in this particular deck, you only have access to Seek, it still seems like a worthy addition to the main deck.

Another deck that recently did well is PMITA, created by "Polynomial P" He wrote a Tournament report in which I will link you to in a moment, as well as a thread, found on the second page in the Open forum. All of the following decks are similar to this, though they have red for a wide-range of powerful cards.

Useful Links:

PMITA Tourney Report:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=32237.0

Thread for PMITA:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31492.0

TMWA has had various different threads consisting of both well-written Tournament Reports, and threads on the deck. Inside it's latest active thread, there are a few different links to reports by Dan (the creator), along with a lot of great discussion on the deck's concept. (There's a good 6-7 pages)

The Mountains Win Again thread:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28929.0

I hope that helped, it should give you access to a wide-amount of resources on this kind of deck. Although, keep in mind that it greatly depends on your metagame.

-wtp.

One question, for whoever can help me. How can I change the title of a link, rather than being forced to lable it, like I did above? So it comes out something like "this", but works as a link. PM me if you know how, it would be greatly appreciated. 

[+t]

The biggest problem I have with your deck is the use of lots of important cards in the 1 cmc slot in addition to chalice.

I tried building something similar to this, and I ran into tons of problems where I would play Chalice @ 1 and just have several cards stranded in hand.  You play significantly more cards in the 1 cmc slot than I did (I ran 4 Rits, 4 Duress, 1 Vamp, 1 Consult), so I can imagine this being an even bigger problem.

I understand that whether to shoot out Chalice @ 0 or @ 1 is often dependent on hand and on the deck you're playing, as well as the amount of time that has elapsed in the game, but I can't help but feel that there are going to be many times when you have tons of relevant disruption at 1 cmc and it is optimal vs the deck you're playing to play Chalice @ 1.

I resolved this partially by running Bazaar of Baghdads.  They help to filter out land/dead spells rather well, and they're especially good with Dark Confidant (As you'll be drawing 3 + x, where x is the number of confidants in play, cards a turn and discarding 2). 

I don't understand how Lotus Petal is bad in this deck.  Turn 1 dude is pretty good.  Sure, its pretty much dead if not in your opening, but this land operates on very few lands anyway.

[wethepeople]

The biggest problem I have with your deck is the use of lots of important cards in the 1 cmc slot in addition to chalice.

I tried building something similar to this, and I ran into tons of problems where I would play Chalice @ 1 and just have several cards stranded in hand.  You play significantly more cards in the 1 cmc slot than I did (I ran 4 Rits, 4 Duress, 1 Vamp, 1 Consult), so I can imagine this being an even bigger problem.

I understand that whether to shoot out Chalice @ 0 or @ 1 is often dependent on hand and on the deck you're playing, as well as the amount of time that has elapsed in the game, but I can't help but feel that there are going to be many times when you have tons of relevant disruption at 1 cmc and it is optimal vs the deck you're playing to play Chalice @ 1.

I resolved this partially by running Bazaar of Baghdads.  They help to filter out land/dead spells rather well, and they're especially good with Dark Confidant (As you'll be drawing 3 + x, where x is the number of confidants in play, cards a turn and discarding 2). 

I don't understand how Lotus Petal is bad in this deck.  Turn 1 dude is pretty good.  Sure, its pretty much dead if not in your opening, but this land operates on very few lands anyway.

Yes, Bazaars are a great card for decks like these, seeing as it is often that you have dead cards in certain matchups. It's a great additional draw engine, and is perferct for feeding Jotun Grunts/Lavamancers. If you can proxy them, I would highly reccomend doing so. If you do, try Darkblast, either sideboard, or main decked. Blast is good versus Goblins, Fish, and Ichorid, to some degree.

I rarely lay Chalice with any counters on it. If it is versus any form of Storm Combo, I might, depending on the build, though I hate shutting off too many of my own spells. If I want to complete a lock in other matchups, I commonly apply counters, but it is very situational.

In a deck like this, where every creature costs {2}cc, it is definitely a good idea to run as much accel as you can (Lotus Petal being one of them). Turn one, I prefer one land, and I love additional accel, so I wouldn't say that the 80% thing isn't completely accurate for all players.

[Polynomial P]

Team Ogre has worked on several builds of W/B decks, but I believe them inferior to the decks that wethepeople suggested. If you are committed to a W/B deck, then consider oath of ghouls and cards like children of korlis for a soft lock. I firmly believe that all non-blue hate decks should run 4 bazaars, which has synergy with Oath of ghouls and let you cycle dead cards.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I can definitely agree with that. Bazaar= amazing. Also, I agree that Jotun Grunt should replace Kami. Kami is good, but grunt adds a hell of a clock. Don't forget Extirpate 

[sa-x]

castigate is worth testing.

[+t]

castigate is worth testing.

I'm not seeing how this is better than the (currently not played) Mesmeric Fiend.  Fiend has not W requirement, and beats (however small).

Sure, the card that Fiend takes can come back, but this is only going to happen with any frequency against decks that actually pack chumps.

I'd suggest Negator, but the recent influx of Warrens tokens probably makes him suck again

[Guli]

// Lands
    1  Strip Mine
    3  Bloodstained Mire
    4  Scrubland
    2  Badlands
    2  Swamp
    4  Wasteland
    4  Polluted Delta

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Children of Korlis
    4  Jotun Grunt

// Spells
    3  Hide/Seek
    3  Swords to Plowshares
    2  Skeletal Scrying
    2  Oath of Ghouls
    4  Night's Whisper
    4  Extirpate
    3  Cabal Therapy
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Jet
    4  Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 4  Null Rod
SB: 4  Kami of Ancient Law
SB: 1  Hide/Seek
SB: 1  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1  Skeletal Scrying

I played with players from tmd and had good results. Deck needs a bit more tuning and SB can be adjusted accordingly. I suggest you look into this

[rmn]

The thing I notice first is that all your creatures cost 2 mana.  My suggestion is to use Aether Vial.  In addition to being acceleration, the ability to play Withered Wretches, Ture Believers and Kami of Ancient Law as instants can really screw with the opponent.

[technogeek5000]

I know that the american metagame is different from italian metagame ( in wich the greatest deck are: Tps, Gift, Oath, artifact.deck, goblin, more or less Ichorid and tang) but i think thath it could give this deck player's some satisfaction.

The american metagame is Dominated by Gifts, Slaver, and Pitch long with decks like Fish, stax, ichorid, and oath occasionally Topping 8. Also i just woke up and am little groggy but what is tang.

If this is a hate deck why not run null rod, since the majority of decks are hurt by this and you run no moxes or black lotus.

-1 seal of cleansing
-1 kami of ancient law
+2 null rod

Children of korlis wants to be in this deck, and i can see kami of ancient law being dead in alot of matchups.

-2 kami of ancient law
+2 Children of korlis

Balance will backfire alot, also its 2 so its bad for your curve.

SB
-1 balance
+1 Abolish (nice tech, never thought of that card )

The deck just seems a little on the slow side, getting out threats, keeping them there, and attacking with creatures. All i said was just on the top of my head, you could try them out if you want. Also if you were to be serious for this deck, moxes and lotus would vastly improve the speed of this deck.

[arik124]

Heres how I would tweak your list (if you still want to play it)

Creatures - 17
4 Dark Confidant
4 Jotun Grunt
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 True Believer
3 Withered Wretch

Spells - 24
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Sword to Plowshares 
3 Orim's Chant             
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet

Lands - 19
4 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine


Some thoughts:    Chalice of the Void is great in decks that run Aether Vial.  Many decks will use chalice against fish.  Bomberman will often board in chalice becuase they can go "chalice 1, chalice 2" and their threats cost 3 and 4.  Instead you are more interested in dropping a null rod.  Null rod basically owns, and shutting off your own moxen is not a big deal.  Also if you are on the draw chalice is nearly useless.  Wretch is fun, but I think you will find you are extremely strapped for Mana and won't have much to use.  Sideboards are meta dependent so I won't bother writing one out.  There are some cards that are fun though

Leyline of the Void is strictly better than planar void, since it stops collusus from shuffilng back in and is uncounterable in an opening grip.  Seal of cleansing is good.  Sacred ground is strong against stax variants.  Orim's chant a full playset is usually really good.  Consider the following things.  Most gifts lists these days run empty the warrens.  all they need to do is empty for 3 or 4 storm turn 1 and they beat you.  you may want to run engineered explosives as well.  If goblins is big in your meta then plague is ok, but Food Chain gobilns goes off before you can even cast plague sometimes, orim's chant might just be better there.  haven't ever had that come up....  Also some Kataki's are good too
basically your goal is to go turn one duress, turn two null rod, turn 3 threat.  OR turn one isamaru, turn two bob, turn 3 rod/duress which is strong.  You want moxen in there.  turn one bob can just get out of hand if you draw enough disruption on him. 

At some point you may consider splashing blue for FoW, and Meddling Mage

[Ipnox]

Ok, i've some difficulty sometimes understing each single word...but it's nice practice in another language  .

By the way... i read all your reply and i've understood that i forgotten to say something very important: i DON'T want an aggro deck with some hate control, i developed an hate deck with an incredible number of "sideboard" card (how do you call them? Here in italy we use an expression like "a pole into the ass" ) played since game 1. Now, arik124 has given me a list thath is similar to an aggro-control and that is not my purpose (i thank you all the same ).

Now, some reply...

@ wethepeople: thank you for the links but i want to keep this 2 colors. I don't want to add the red.

@ Polynomial P: you gave me an incredible idea: bazaar+oath of ghouls. It's very nice even because you can discard dead cards and draw all the same some creature from you graveyard. Just a question, you can activate the oath just once each turn or you must take cards from you graveyard until the number of creature is equo?

@ NicolaeAlmighty: you told me this change: -3 kami +3 jotun...you know...it's not bad. The deck has an elevated clock and jotun can help us...the problem is that it's an anti-synergic card with Planar void (it's written in the write way?). Than, i haven't selected the lotus petal because it's not a permanent mana font and a starting hand with 2 hand it's ok but a starting hand with a land and a lotus it's NOT ok.

@someone: the childern of korlis it's not so much beauty, we have no problem with storm.deck

@someone: no, the null rod is not as wonderfull as kataki. He's reaaaaly beauty!

By the way, i will test with bazaar-oath of ghouls, jotun and than i will tell you.

Oh, one more thing, tha aetheral vial is a great card but there is not space for put it into the deck.


I'm testing this list
// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
    2 Plains
    4 Scrubland
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Swamp
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad

// Creatures
    3 Kataki, War's Wage
    4 Dark Confidant
    3 True Believer
    3 Withered Wretch
    3 Jotun Grunt

// Spells
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Duress
    3 Cabal Therapy
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    3 Planar Void
    2 Orim's Chant
    2 Oath of Ghouls

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Orim's Chant
SB: 2 Abolish
SB: 3 Serenity
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Hide/Seek
SB: 1 Balance


Edit: it's not good. The void is one of uor biggest card and we can't replace it; jotun is a huge 4/4 but is nothing compeared with void. The bazaar and the oath make us soo mach bazaar-oath dependent and we cant do this...the only card that enjoy me is the vial, i have to find her a place.

[arik124]

You need to find space for 3 or 4 null rod, it is simply better than chalice against most decks.

Also you need to have a way to deal with a turn one empty the warresn for 3 or 4 storm...otherwise expect to lose that matchup

[wethepeople]

You need to find space for 3 or 4 null rod, it is simply better than chalice against most decks.

Also you need to have a way to deal with a turn one empty the warresn for 3 or 4 storm...otherwise expect to lose that matchup

I disagree. Versus decks using Storm, they generally hold back on their Moxen, until they reach the point where they can go off. So within those turns, you have time to set up disruption, including Chalice of the Void. Also, if you are versus decks like Long, or Belcher, you can apply counters to have a greater impact on their win condition.

Oh, and he does have an answer to Empty the Warrens, four of them, actually.

Now, let's pass to analyse the sideboard...

4 engineered plague

Now, I personally don't think that Plague is the best answer to ETWs at all. If you choose to still not-use Null Rod, Engineered Explosives is a strong canidate. Along with other cards that double as answers to Aggro, like Echoing Decay for example. There is a thread in the Open forum that discusses Workshop decks' options to answer ETW, and in that thread you can find several other possible selections.

I really like Polynomial P's idea with Oath of Ghouls. I remember a few months ago that BrianPK80 made UWb Fish deck utilizing the card, so I can imagine a deck like this to do well with that as an additional "combo". Cards like Children of Korlis, and Ronom Unicorn could be reanimated for excessive use, all the while being fueled via Bazaar of Baghdad.

[Polynomial P]

You can only take 1 card from your graveyard to your hand for Oath of Ghouls. If you are going to run Oath of Ghouls and Jotun Grunt, then you should not play planar void. I do not think Planar void is a good card anyways. It is easy to play around, and cuts you off from your own graveyard. Besides, you have withered wretch which is just better.

Drop planar void from your list and replace it with Null rod. In my experience, the only time Kataki is useful is when Null rod is also in play.

[wethepeople]

You can only take 1 card from your graveyard to your hand for Oath of Ghouls. If you are going to run Oath of Ghouls and Jotun Grunt, then you should not play planar void. I do not think Planar void is a good card anyways. It is easy to play around, and cuts you off from your own graveyard. Besides, you have withered wretch which is just better.

Drop planar void from your list and replace it with Null rod. In my experience, the only time Kataki is useful is when Null rod is also in play.

Not really. When both are played together, it tends to become overkill. I really think that Chalice is better in this deck, but I guess it is up to you.

Planar Void is uncessary main decked. Use it primarily as a sideboard card. Run Grunt, and Wretch, they will be plenty good when trying to keep opposing graveyard in check. Void will just kill your Grunt, before it will even be able to attack.

I think that using Grunt, Oath of Ghouls, and Bazaar are the best way to go.