Is Vintage fun?

[diopter]

Recent debates and arguments have been raging as to whether to ban Will and restrict Gifts because they are getting out of hand, or whether everything is fine, the metagame is so diverse and healthy and etc. etc.

These debates don't really go anywhere, they're not too productive because people seem to be arguing about different things.

So, let's cut the bullshit. I think Steve stated in his most recent article that bannings and restrictions are ultimately enacted to make playing Magic more fun.

Now, while the criteria for "fun-ness" (and similarly, "unfun-ness") is different for each person, you have to agree that we can all, at least, give a yes or no answer to this question.

So.

Is Vintage fun for you?

[Polynomial P]

There has been relatively few vintage tournaments in the midwest this year, so team ogre picked up legacy to fill the void. After finally playing in a Vintage tournament last week, i commented on how much I missed vintage. There is nothing else like it in the world.

As far as "unfun" cards like Gifts and will, thats part of the format and why it is so fun. Nothing really seems to be out of line right now and completely dominating the top 8 (or even the percentage of decks played) and several different will and anti-will strategies are viable. Banning Gifts will not accomplish anything, because it would just tip the balance to Rit-based combo. "Intuitive-Gifts" might become the mana drain deck of choice, running a single copy of Gifts to be found with merchant scroll. As it stands, there have been a ton of viable decks in the format as of late, so i think that vintage is still fun.

[TopSecret]

     Dude, even if Will was unrestricted Vintage'd still be fun.
   Seriously, first turn, pwn face. What's not to like?
   Nobody'd 'randomly' topdeck Will either, because everyone would run four!
    It'd be all about bluffing, too. Like,
"Do you have the Will?"
"Goddamit... I think he has Will."
"I can't tell, whether or not he has the Force of Will for my Will..."
"Yeah, your deck's pretty good... 'Til I Will!"

[forests failed you]

There was no option for 'extremely awesomely insanely fun' so I voted for fun.

I think Vintage is great.  Its my favorite format.  And the inclusion of cards like Black Lotus and Yawgmoth's Will are a big reason for this.  Its fun to have a format where the powerful cards CAN be played.

[Methuselahn]

I asked this very question on a model railroading website regarding model railroading.  Surprisingly, everybody seemed to like their hobby.



 

[zeus-online]

Well..anyone who is on this site would vote "Yes"...seriosly...if you posted the same question on a site dedicated to people who collect stamps, they'd all vote "Yes".

The question is if the format would be more fun without certain cards, which i personally think it could be.

/Zeus

[Illissius]

I asked this very question on a model railroading website regarding model railroading.  Surprisingly, everybody seemed to like their hobby.



 

Heh. I'm here for the Legacy forums, these days. An environment consisting of Prison, multiple incarnations of Storm combo, combo-control, and generic Fish decks isn't much to my liking. The only other deck (Fish is okay) I can somewhat relate to is Meandeck Gifts: you could almost add Balance and call it New Keeper.

[unknown.root]

No Vintage isn't fun, but it's better than the rest of the damn formats.

[Almighty]

For me it isn't the format that makes vintage so much fun. It's the people who play it. Vintage is a gentleman's format, especially when in comparrison to other formats available.

[zeus-online]

No Vintage isn't fun, but it's better than the rest of the damn formats.

Just wondering why you're playing the game then? 

/Zeus

[forests failed you]

No Vintage isn't fun, but it's better than the rest of the damn formats.

Just wondering why you're playing the game then? 

/Zeus

Probably because playing Magic is more fun than collecting bugs or stamps.

If it isn't fun for you, I am wondering why not?  Perhaps, instead of focusing on how the format impeeds one's ability to have fun, people should take more responsibility for themselves and figure out what they could do to enjoy the game, or the tournaments they attend more.

Is it really the existence of Yawgmoth's Will and Gifts Ungiven that makes people have a bad time at an event?  If so, why pick Vintage as the format you want to play?  Or, why not change decks and build something that beats those cards instead of calling for the expulsion of those cards from the format.  There are far more ridiculous cards in Vintage than Yawgmoth's Will. 

Tormod's Crypt: 0 - Counter Yawgmoth's Will.  Lose no tempo.  Beatings.

If a Gifts heavy metagame has got you singing the blues, play with that card.  (It isn't 'fun' for players who play Gifts.)

[dicemanx]

This poll asks the wrong question.

The relevant question is whether there are any changes that can be effected to make the format even more enjoyable, and whether we can come to a consensus in deciding on what those changes (if any) should be.

Even if the answer is: "the format is fine", we still have to consider the longevity and long term health of the game. For instance, I might not favor a particular decision, but if it makes more people happy, retains more vintage players in the format, or attracts new players to the format, and as a consequence spawns more high level vintage events, then I would support it.

[Yare]

Vintage is still the place to be.  I have a ton of fun pretty much every time I play.

[ErkBek]

No Vintage isn't fun, but it's better than the rest of the damn formats.

Just wondering why you're playing the game then? 

/Zeus

It's because he plays stax and won't play the fun decks, like combo. 

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

Out of all the formats I play I find Vintage to be the least fun out of all of them. It's right next to the painstakingly boring Time Spiral Block Constructed. I play Vintage because I love some of the people at the tournaments. They make my day. Also the payout isn't so bad, and the level of difficulty is much lower than other formats in my opinion.

Even though Vintage is the least fun, doesn't mean it isn't fun. But in general I will hit a tournament for any other format over a Vintage tournament.

[Demonic Attorney]

Having been involved with Magic for 11 years at this point, I have played dozens of formats.  From old school Extended, to the many varieties of Limited, to Block Constructed, to Arena League, to Type 4, to Kamikaze, Vintage has almost always stood apart as the most engaging, demanding, enjoyable, and rewarding format I've played.  Aside from the obvious points such as not having to dump your collection when sets rotate and chase a new set of rares, I think both the format itself and the culture associated with it provide me with the best Magic playing experience possible.

While some people might voice preference for other formats as more "skill intensive," I've found that Vintage punishes mistakes even more harshly because the stakes are so high.  A miscalculation playing combo, a bad choice running Gifts, or a bad mulligan decision playing Stax often lead to a quick defeat.  Some people lose sight of the role of playskill in their losses because games are decided by quick, big wins.  This doesn't change the fact that playskill nonetheless played a role; there's often even less room for mistakes in a format with Tinker and Will than in one with Saproling Burst and Fires of Yavimaya.

Furthermore, the character of Vintage players far surpasses the players of most other formats.  In the more mainstream formats, I've noticed many players invest a great deal of their ego in the game.  As a result, the quality of the experience suffers because a number of players feel compelled to win at any cost in order to preserve their self-image as a "great player."  When the quality of the experience takes a backseat to ego validation, a format tends to be less fun.  Because most players with such an attitude avoid Vintage as "beneath" them, it has managed to avoid this problem, for the most part.

[nataz]

It's the experience, not the game, that’s fun.

Unlike many (most?) Vintage players, I started magic relatively late in life; sometime during my sophomore year in college. It was a fun diversion from poker, spades, and rook, that could still be played with cards and w/out alcohol (i.e., in public). There was a short time where I took the game seriously, playtested a lot, and really wanted to win, but, in hindsight, I find myself having had much more fun on either end of my magic playing "arc". In the beginning it was fun playing multiplayer casual with friends, and here at the end it's fun playing vintage "tournaments" with friends.

Lets be honest here, playing Type I is kinda weird. I can't imagine trying to explain TMD's threads to any of my friends outside of magic. We are at best a small social clique (type I), that’s part of a slightly larger (although I would say by no means mainstream) social game (magic in general); is anyone surprised that so many people just play because of the community?

So yea, casting dark ritual, or tapping Bazaar of Baghdad carries little visceral emotion for me; rather Myriad, Waterbury, eating out w/ friends, talking on AIM and TMD, re-learning how to draft late at night, keeping up with college friends etc., is what its all about. 

[Smmenen]

Vintage is most interesting format for me because it is the most "pure" format.    That is, Vintage reveals the game of magic for what it is: a game of logical connectives.   The formats that are more creature centric obscure this central feature.    One only need to see a stack that looks like this to see the truth of it:

Yawgmoth's Will
Mana Drain
Force of Will
Red Elemental Blast
Misdirection
Pyroblast
Mana Drain
Force of Will

The amazing interactions on the stack, enormous card pool, and the range of possible strategies all make vintage absolutely fascinating.   

[desolutionist]

Vintage is swingy and unpredictable;  I can be up during any point of the game and be down in half of a turn.  This is fun to me.

[Guevara59]

I agree with desolutionist, magic is great b/c any one card can pull you out of a loss and one faulty decision can put you into a hole.  I love playing a format that pretty much allows every card to be played except for the incredibly cheap ones...ahem...chaos orb....I love it how the format is always changing and i think that Wizards does a good job in maintaining the format.

[Dxfiler]

For the moment, vintage is the least fun for me it's ever been.  I personally attribute this to the format being very stagnant, at least in my area.  It's just not fun to face fish or gifts every round... and that's pretty much how it's been for me personally.  Can I do well in that environment?  Sure, but the format is more than results for me.  If I'm not having fun, I don't want to play.  So I've decided to take a break for a while.  No more vintage every weekend.  Probably once a month tops.  I just have more fun right now in other formats.  That's me personally.  Alot of people like the format as it stands right now, so they have no reason to play less. 

I'd like to attribute my lack of fun currently to being burnt out, but I went over my last 3 tournaments after Waterbury and I faced gifts or fish every single round with two exceptions, both being bomberman.  So 20 matches rougly for me the past month and they've all been the same two decks.  I just don't want to play in that type of metagame right now.

There are ways to fix this, like moving :p  I'm not holding my breath for wizards to actually restrict anything, so that option's out.  I could just build a deck geared to beat fish/gifts, but I don't want to.  That just isn't fun for me.  I'm just going to sit back and see if the format changes at all in the upcoming weeks.  Maybe it won't and I'll come back wanting to play anyway, who knows.  All I know is right now it personally isn't fun for me because I've faced the same decks over and over and over again and although I've done fine, it isn't about results for me.  It's about having fun. 

I'm not currently having fun. :p

- Dave Feinstein
 

[diopter]

All I know is right now it personally isn't fun for me because I've faced the same decks over and over and over again and although I've done fine, it isn't about results for me.  It's about having fun. 

I'm not currently having fun. :p

This is really what I was trying to get at, when I posted this poll
I'll preface by saying that I would abhor anything like banning Will or restricting Gifts, because I love playing Will decks, specifically Gifts - I like playing with high-power decks and blowing people out.
However, if enough people feel the way you do, Dave, that playing Vintage is no longer fun and if the reason it's no longer fun can be directly attributed to certain cards in the format, then I couldn't help but admit (albeit grudgingly) that maybe something needs to be done on the B/R front.

[zeus-online]

All I know is right now it personally isn't fun for me because I've faced the same decks over and over and over again and although I've done fine, it isn't about results for me.  It's about having fun. 

I'm not currently having fun. :p

This is really what I was trying to get at, when I posted this poll
I'll preface by saying that I would abhor anything like banning Will or restricting Gifts, because I love playing Will decks, specifically Gifts - I like playing with high-power decks and blowing people out.
However, if enough people feel the way you do, Dave, that playing Vintage is no longer fun and if the reason it's no longer fun can be directly attributed to certain cards in the format, then I couldn't help but admit (albeit grudgingly) that maybe something needs to be done on the B/R front.

Yeah big plays are amazing and fun, and everything...but the 251st time i blow someone out with Gifts ungiven, Will, ToA for 80 damage or something, its just not "fun" anymore.
I guess thats why i loved playing keeper, the game could be won in several different ways, rather then just going on auto-pilot and cast the same 3 cards every game.

/Zeus

[Bram]

I miss the "don't know" option.

To me, this question is like asking "Is space travel fun?"

[Implacable]

I would go so far as to say that the North-Western metagame, such as it is, is the most diverse metagame in the nation; at all of our tournaments, which are admittedly smaller than Waterbury or an SCG, the T8s are varied and interesting.  I don't understand the fixed metagames of places like the North-East, where you run Drains or dudes; shouldn't such a format naturally invite decks like Oath to prey upon it?  Out here, simply because of the x-factor of individualistic players, everything's a surprise.  Playing Magic out here is a fun and dynamic experience; there is nothing more entertaining than bringing a deck to a tournament and seeing what you'll face.  I may play Gifts or Goblins; Fish or Slaver; Stax or Oath; Bomberman or Dragon.  It's this environment that will bring me back time and time again so long as it continues to exist. 

Northwest Magic:
Join the Tournament
Play Exotic Decks
Kill them

[Twaun007]

"Is space travel fun?"

Space travel is sweet! It is quite expensive though, with fuel and repairs it adds up!
Oh yeah...I have fun when I play type 1.

[Matt]

I think everyone knew before voting that the overall result was going to be a majority opinion of "fun." But roughly a quarter of respondents said "not fun." Does that figure surprise you? Did you expect it to be higher or lower?

[JACO]

I think everyone knew before voting that the overall result was going to be a majority opinion of "fun." But roughly a quarter of respondents said "not fun." Does that figure surprise you? Did you expect it to be higher or lower?

I expected the same people who complain to say it's not fun, and the same people who aren't all emo to enjoy the format. This thread comes up like every year. And there's always the people that are either too cool, too bad, or too emo that don't enjoy the format. And then there's the rest of the people who love the format.

That being said, I enjoy Vintage and Legacy the most, and enjoy all constructed formats in general, plus Type 4.

[Necrologia]

To be perfectly honest, the most fun I've ever had playing Magic was back when my friends and I were scrubs. I do miss the multiplayer games but times change. All the friends I used to play with have either quit, or I've just lost contact with them.

I play Type 1 with a new group now and it's fun. Like others have said, it's not so much the game itself, as just being there, playing with friends. Quite often we'll go a week or two just playing Type 4, or else breaking out a board game. Social interaction is awesome, can't sit behind a computer all the time.

[wethepeople]

At times, I agree with Dave to some degree. But I guess I have taught myself to put up with games between no other decks besides Gifts, and Fish. In response to such a corrupt meta, I usually like to create a deck that is narrow, and is sure to win in these situations, and take advantage of such a time.

I am in no way afraid of any of our current decks, because all of which are easy enough to disrupt, so it seems fair to me. If you are consistently getting blasted by decks abusing Tendrils of Agony, then you may very well be doing something incorrectly.

I am really hoping for a metagame-shift so that other decks return to viability. Maybe "Future Sight" will have an answer to our difficulties.