[Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays: Long Live Ichorid!

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13795.html

Stephen Menendian's innovative Manaless Ichorid deck continues to evolve. Sure, it's fought its way through various hate in the form of Tormod's Crypt and Jotun Grunt... but can it handle the heat from the new boy in town, the mighty Extirpate? Stephen refines his deck further, and puts it through the mill of a local Vintage tournament...

My decklist:

The Best Manaless Ichorid 
By Stephen Menendian

 
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Petrified Field
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Shambling Shell
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
2 Sutured Ghoul
1 Sundering Titan
4 Unmask
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Serum Powder
2 Dragon's Breath
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
 
SB:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Underground Sea
3 Underground River
4 Chain of Vapor

[Methuselahn]

Very nice piece, Steve.  Adding Mishra's Factories in order to adapt to the now popular and legal Extirpate is brilliant.  I really like this build.  Time will tell as to how popular this new hate will be.  Until then, this deck may be the strongest out there.

Personally, I'd much rather see you write short summaries of your games rather than every move.

You're running Bazaars and Factories, what are your thoughts on Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth?

-Jeff

[Vegeta2711]

Boring. Write about how Blinkmoth Nexus AND Mishra's Factory together is just better than running P. Fields.  :lol:

I swear this may be the only deck I'd ever play with a bad hang-over.

[Dralock]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13795.html

Stephen Menendian's innovative Manaless Ichorid deck continues to evolve. Sure, it's fought its way through various hate in the form of Tormod's Crypt and Jotun Grunt... but can it handle the heat from the new boy in town, the mighty Extirpate? Stephen refines his deck further, and puts it through the mill of a local Vintage tournament...

Why do you continue to talk about yourself in the third person? Who else is going to write that blurb, really?

Ungh, I'm sure its a good article though. I still refuse to pay "premium" for a site that is talking about a card game.

Verbal warning for lack of content. If you want to complain about stuff like this, try the SCG forums, not here.
-Jacob

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13795.html

Stephen Menendian's innovative Manaless Ichorid deck continues to evolve. Sure, it's fought its way through various hate in the form of Tormod's Crypt and Jotun Grunt... but can it handle the heat from the new boy in town, the mighty Extirpate? Stephen refines his deck further, and puts it through the mill of a local Vintage tournament...

Why do you continue to talk about yourself in the third person? Who else is going to write that blurb, really?

Craig Stevenson, my editor, writes those blurbs.   Are you really that surprised?   

Ungh, I'm sure its a good article though. I still refuse to pay "premium" for a site that is talking about a card game.

Which is fine.    But without getting paid premium rates for articles, I wouldn't be writing these articles.     You'd be lucky to see me write four times a year.   The same can be said for most of the premium writers.   In fact, without premium - SCG probably wouldn't even have articles at all. 

[Dralock]

Which is fine.    But without getting paid premium rates for articles, I wouldn't be writing these articles.     You'd be lucky to see me write four times a year.   The same can be said for most of the premium writers.   In fact, without premium - SCG probably wouldn't even have articles at all. 

You mean all we would have is people playing the game and forum talk?

Really?

I don't remember this game a few years ago before pay-to-play came along I guess.

[Smmenen]

Which is fine.    But without getting paid premium rates for articles, I wouldn't be writing these articles.     You'd be lucky to see me write four times a year.   The same can be said for most of the premium writers.   In fact, without premium - SCG probably wouldn't even have articles at all. 

You mean all we would have is people playing the game and forum talk?

Really?

Really

Two years ago Pete Hoefling discovered that the article side of SCG was too expensive to support simply on his own dime.    It either had to go premium or there would possibly be no SCG articles at all.   

I mean - do you think that magicthegathering.com writers write for free?   

I don't remember this game a few years ago before pay-to-play came along I guess.

It has not to do with "remembering" so much as common sense.

My articles are typically 20 to 40 pages, single-spaced, in Word format.   I wouldn't be writing a weekly column of that size and with that level of analysis for free.  Nor would any sane individual.   

Before premium, I had only written a few articles in a few months and envisioned myself writing perhaps one article every few months.    With premium, I could justify writing more articles because of the pay increase. 

[Dralock]

Really

Two years ago Pete Hoefling discovered that the article side of SCG was too expensive to support simply on his own dime.    It either had to go premium or there would possibly be no SCG articles at all.   

I mean - do you think that magicthegathering.com writers write for free?   

Do I care if magicthegathering.com write for free? Do they constantly get people on with little to no knowledge of a format talking a bunch of junk about the mock-games they play in an effort to hype up the worth of this "knowledge"?

*edit* - Forgot the rest of the point.

I was being sarcastic. I do not think it all that bad if people were "forced" to actually play the game and speak with each other in a way that is interactive instead of lecture->discussion format.

It has not to do with "remembering" so much as common sense.

My articles are typically 20 to 40 pages, single-spaced, in Word format.   I wouldn't be writing a weekly column of that size and with that level of analysis for free.  Nor would any sane individual.   

Before premium, I had only written a few articles in a few months and envisioned myself writing perhaps one article every few months.    With premium, I could justify writing more articles because of the pay increase. 

I am not attacking you so much as attacking the entire situation of vintage magic and the hype-market. The largest prize from Vintage to the average person is store credit. People will spend hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars for this game to never see a top 8 and still think they need an "edge" from people who are writing about the game from some sort of seat on-high.

I am happy you can make any compensation for Magic: The Gathering, though I am not happy that you feel the need to come to the forum and solicit your articles, because that is exactly what you are doing. Its a machine that is created by this sort of behavior, which leaves the "game" behind.

[Smmenen]

Really

Two years ago Pete Hoefling discovered that the article side of SCG was too expensive to support simply on his own dime.    It either had to go premium or there would possibly be no SCG articles at all.   

I mean - do you think that magicthegathering.com writers write for free?   

Do I care if magicthegathering.com write for free? Do they constantly get people on with little to no knowledge of a format talking a bunch of junk about the mock-games they play in an effort to hype up the worth of this "knowledge"?

*edit* - Forgot the rest of the point.

I was being sarcastic. I do not think it all that bad if people were "forced" to actually play the game and speak with each other in a way that is interactive instead of lecture->discussion format.

It has not to do with "remembering" so much as common sense.

My articles are typically 20 to 40 pages, single-spaced, in Word format.   I wouldn't be writing a weekly column of that size and with that level of analysis for free.  Nor would any sane individual.   

Before premium, I had only written a few articles in a few months and envisioned myself writing perhaps one article every few months.    With premium, I could justify writing more articles because of the pay increase. 

I am not attacking you so much as attacking the entire situation of vintage magic and the hype-market. The largest prize from Vintage to the average person is store credit. People will spend hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars for this game to never see a top 8 and still think they need an "edge" from people who are writing about the game from some sort of seat on-high.

I am happy you can make any compensation for Magic: The Gathering, though I am not happy that you feel the need to come to the forum and solicit your articles, because that is exactly what you are doing. Its a machine that is created by this sort of behavior, which leaves the "game" behind.

Why do you think that the only purpose of articles is to provide an "edge"?   

Do you think that the primary reader pays for SCG Premium so that they'll have "tech"?    Do you think that most readers are only looking to find that next new netdeck?

Have you ever considered the possibility that people enjoy reading articles on magic simply because they enjoy magic?   My articles are rarely written with the intention of "imparting" tech.   To the extent that I try to help my readers get an "edge" it is through explaining the mechanics of a deck and the inclusion of various cards.  In addition, I write matchup analysis so that people can see how I might pilot a deck. 

Far from leaving the "game" behind, magic articles stimulate discussion and generate interest in the game.   It was Oscar Tan's articles that actually gave Vintage an audience and the inauguration of the Vintage Championship after years of neglect, can be indirectly attributed, in part, to his efforts.   

People will spend hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars for this game to never see a top 8 and still think they need an "edge" from people who are writing about the game from some sort of seat on-high.

This is provably false.   First of all, SCG premium articles cost no more than $5 a month – and that is the most expensive rate.   Buying SCG premium for a year costs much less per month.   Secondly, you assume that the purpose of writing articles and reading them is to gain an edge.  You, unsurprisingly, miss the point that magic articles about a game we enjoy have entertainment value in themselves.   

I am not attacking you so much as attacking the entire situation of vintage magic and the hype-market.

I wish that were the case.   In case you hadn’t noticed, I’m the only person writing about Vintage (with the occasional Josh S. or Pat Chapin article) for the last two years.   Hardly a “hype.”   

The largest prize from Vintage to the average person is store credit.

Assuming the “average” player is someone who falls in the middle of the pack, why should that player get prizes?   I thought only the top players were supposed to win prizes.  Only one team gets super bowl rings.

There are very handsome prizes distributed to Vintage players every year.   The Vintage Championship painting is worth many thousands of dollars.   SCG P9 tournaments and Waterburies give out thousands of dollars in prizes at every event.   

[Bram]

Gentlemen, please! Continue this dialogue over PM, if you will. Thank you.

Let's get back to discussing the article's content, shall we?

[GrandpaBelcher]

Good article, Steve.  I like reading tournament reports, especially from tournaments I attended.

I have a couple of questions though.

How well do the Factories do what they're supposed to?  I didn't see much use of them in the report, but I know they've been touted for a while now in the Ichorid threads.  If your Ichorids, Shadows, whatever, get Extirpated unexpectedly (lucky topdeck), you've probably already torn your hand and deck apart with Bazaar and Unmask.  That means digging for Factory or Field is going to be rather slow, right?  And you need two mana producing lands in play to put up any sort of offense with Factory.  Seems like Factory is only really good for sacrificing to Dread Return or Therapy.

Also, do you think Ichorid is a metagame deck?  For example, I know from experience and reading other reports that Fish has to win its first round so that it stays playing against the decks it's tuned to beat (those which make up the bulk of the metagame and are expected to win their first rounds too).  If Fish gets kicked to the bottom tables and stays there with random decks against which it's not prepared, it will likely have a terrible day.  Does Ichorid have to win its first round, or can it dig its way out?  Would you make significant changes if you were to play against more Stax than Drains?  Would you not take Ichorid to a combo environment?

Thanks for writing.

[Smmenen]

How well do the Factories do what they're supposed to? 

I think this question illustrates as well as any the difficulty in answering anything about Ichorid.   All of the components in Ichorid are so closely interconnected that an explanation of the purposes that any given card is to serve can’t be isolated from the whole.   That’s because Ichorid is a highly synergistic deck.   Its whole is much greater than the sum of its parts.   Ichorid as a deck is composed of cards that range from individually awful, to mediocre, to, in a very few instances, exceptional (cabal therapy, Bazaar, and Chalice).   Most of the cards are simply awful by themselves.   

I didn't see much use of them in the report, but I know they've been touted for a while now in the Ichorid threads.  If your Ichorids, Shadows, whatever, get Extirpated unexpectedly (lucky topdeck), you've probably already torn your hand and deck apart with Bazaar and Unmask.  That means digging for Factory or Field is going to be rather slow, right?  And you need two mana producing lands in play to put up any sort of offense with Factory.  Seems like Factory is only really good for sacrificing to Dread Return or Therapy.

Let me break up your questions so that I can answer them more directly.   

1) Your first question seems to suggest that Factory is only really good for sacrificing to Dread Return and Therapy.   I think this is true, but this is what the deck is designed to do.    Dread Return is the combo this deck wants to achieve.   It pulls it off by throwing Therapies to clear the way.   Any card that helps combo out more quickly and surely is a good thing. 

2) You raise the question about whether Factory is a weak offensive card.   What about Nether Shadow?   Nether Shadow is also a weak offensive card.  It is a 1/1 creature.  Even in multiples it is very slow by Vintage standards.   Alone Nether Shadows really can do nothing significant.   For the same reason, Factory isn’t here to be an aggressive threat.   It’s sacrificial meat.   

3) While it is true that digging for a factory or a field is rather slow, you shouldn’t have to be digging for them.    With eight lands in addition to Strip Mine and Bazaars, chances are that you will see either a Field or a Factory by turn one.  That means you can lay one of those cards into play on turn two.   If you’ve dropped a Factory, then you won’t need to use Bazaar to dig for one.   If you’ve dropped a Field, then if you get Extripated, you’ll be able to Field up a Factory when you need it.   Your question suggests that Factory is an after the fact response to Extirpate.  It’s more of a preventative measure to ensure that you don’t get hosed by Extripate.  In other words, it’s a proactive solution that addresses a problem because it becomes a problem.   The density of Fields and Factories means that you probably won’t have to dig for it in most situations.   

Finally, the overall utility of Factory is bolstered by the fact that it can serve as a quasi-turn two duress.   That is, using it on turn two to flashback Cabal Therapy is really important for the manaless Ichorid list as it doesn’t have Duresses and can’t hardcast Therapy without Lotus.  It provides another way to Interact on turn two if you don’t have an Ichorid to return.   

The purpose of the deck is to combo out as quickly as possible.   Factory aids that goal by every standard I can think of.  The fact that it protects you from Extirpate is simply another reason to run it.   

The most important question is whether it is the best card for those slots.   I think the answer is probably yes.   

Also, do you think Ichorid is a metagame deck?  For example, I know from experience and reading other reports that Fish has to win its first round so that it stays playing against the decks it's tuned to beat (those which make up the bulk of the metagame and are expected to win their first rounds too).  If Fish gets kicked to the bottom tables and stays there with random decks against which it's not prepared, it will likely have a terrible day.  Does Ichorid have to win its first round, or can it dig its way out?  Would you make significant changes if you were to play against more Stax than Drains?  Would you not take Ichorid to a combo environment?

Now that you raise it, I find myself wondering exactly what is meant by the term “metagame deck.”  On the one hand, we have this traditional understanding that this term refers to decks that were purposefully designed to beat the metagame.  The Solution, the Hater, etc.   Fish was, in some ways, conceived as the deck that beats the metagame.  On the other hand, how do we distinguish decks that were not designed originally to beat the metagame, but to be powerful decks and then tuned to beat the metagame?   Or, can we really say that a deck was purposefully designed for one purpose?   Many decks come about with multiple motivations – which are often related.   For example you can beat the metagame by being powerful or by playing hate cards that trump opposing strategies.  And often times you have a combination.   Is Tinker Colossus a strategic trump or just really powerful?   What about Null Rod?   In a sense, all decks are intended to beat the metagame otherwise their pilots wouldn’t be playing them.    I don’t know that I can answer that question.    The question of a metagame deck also suggests that if the metagame were very different, said deck would not exist.   To some degree, isn’t that true of all decks?  All decks have design inclusions that account for the existing metagame.   Grim Long runs a Xantid and a bounce spell maindeck.  Those spots could change if the meta were different.   

I’m also surprised to hear you say that you think Fish is a metagame deck.   I think that Fish is independently powerful.   Cards like Null Rod and Meddling Mage may not be so much aimed at the metagame but the card pool.   Null Rod is a Vintage rule breaker.   Similarly, Jotun Grunt and Force of Will are just great cards.   

I think of Ichorid as an independently powerful deck.   The concept is really broken when you think about it.   Bazaar + dredgers + men and Dread Return equals a powerful combo at no mana cost.   Ichorid approaches the game from a different angle.   To illustrate just how different Ichorid is, I think the more important question for Ichorid is whether it wins game one.   If it doesn’t win game one in any given match, then its chances for winning the match drop.   That’s why my mulligan to oblivion against Matt in round two was so ill-timed – it was game one. 

It is true that you should change your deck for the metagame.  If you expected more Stax than Drains then perhaps you’d play a different list tuned for that metagame.   

The problem I faced was that I lost game one to Fish and had trouble wining that match and then I played my worst matchup twice: combo.   In a combo heavy metagame, I would play a mana ichorid list with Duresses maindeck.  But I would probably play something better equipped to beat combo. 

I hope that answers your questions.   

[meadbert]

If you have 8 Fields + Factories then you should be able to Bazaar into one fairly quickly.  Basically there is a 40%ish chance of seeing Factory or Field each turn if you activate Bazaar.

Steve, did you entertain the Myr Servitor idea at all?  With 4 Factories and 4 Fields he seems well suited to your build.

I am still on the fence with Servitor.  I hate what it does to my black creature and black card count.  Still, when he hits he can be a huge bomb.  Post board, playing games with Thug/Servitor can be very annoying for opposing aggro decks.

[vroman]

why arent you running the clearly superior phantasmagorian over shambling shell? you dont even mention the card.
also, Im glad you mentioned albert kyle, since this deck was totally his invention, despite what SCG implied in the article blurb.

[Smmenen]

Steve, did you entertain the Myr Servitor idea at all?  With 4 Factories and 4 Fields he seems well suited to your build.

I am still on the fence with Servitor.  I hate what it does to my black creature and black card count.  Still, when he hits he can be a huge bomb.  Post board, playing games with Thug/Servitor can be very annoying for opposing aggro decks.

I played with Servitor in Suicide Virus so I'm certainly aware of how powerful it is.  I saw your list last weekend and did entertain the idea.   

The problem with it is several fold.   First of all, it has to be in your opening draw + 2 AND you need a land in addition to Bazaar to be played.  Otherwise its dead except as very lean food for the Ghoul.    Second, you can't cast him until turn two.   If you can't cast him until turn two, that means you can't return more of them until turn three.    Third, this also means that if you want to use him to flashback a Therapy, you can't do that until turn three.    A card that helps you win the game on turn three is, in my view, the classic definition of win-more.   Turn two is when this deck needs to interact to fill gaps in its matchup wheel. 

I think either one of those three reasons is sufficient reason to not use Servitor.   But here's another consequence of the first reason: the requirement of land + Servitor could produce unreasonable demands on your in-game play.  For instance, if you have ot mulligan to 5 and are on the play.  You play bazaar (4 cards in hand), tap it to draw 2 and discard three (now you have 3 cards in hand.  Let's say you want to Unmask and play turn two Field.   You are going to be discarding Servitor.   There are a million scenarios I could construct like that that illustrate how problematic servitor can be.

why arent you running the clearly superior phantasmagorian over shambling shell? you dont even mention the card.

I respect your opinion Robert, but if it were clear - wouldn't I be running it? 

I talked about Phanta in my set review and have obviously entertained the card.  But I fail to see how it is clearly superior?   The reason I run shells are twofold: 1) The dredge and 2) they have power to feed Ghoul.    Phanta only addresses the latter point.   Phanta does not dredge nor does it help me dredge.   The three major dredgers are often not enough.  Many, many games I begin dredging on the back of Shambling Shell.   

Think about it this way: you may have a really high chance of having a dredger in your starting hand + 2, but the problem is that if you *don't* have a dredger in those cards, you will lose at least on turn on your goldfish.   Going for a turn three to a turn four or a turn four to a turn five kill can make the difference between winning and losing the game.

I run 4 Fields in this list and a huge amount of dredgers.  I don't really see the particular need for the Phanta effect in this list. 

also, Im glad you mentioned albert kyle, since this deck was totally his invention, despite what SCG implied in the article blurb.

I make a point of mentioning Albert every time I write about Ichorid.   

[meadbert]

Regarding Phantasmagorian:
I have program that goldfishes Ichorid.  It shows that Shambling Shell > Gigapede > Phantasmagorian when undisrupted.  When Bazaar is Needled, Phantasmagorian becomes the best of the three.  Anyway, my point is that it is not so clear that Phantasmagorian is better than Shell.

Regarding Servitor.  There were three points:
1:  Servitor must start in your opponening hand +2.  The same could be said of Mishra's Factory.
2:  You must have a second land in your hand.  4 Factories + 4 Fields make this very likely is Steve's list.  I rarely have trouble casting with only 6 mana lands.
3:  You might have discard it to Unmask.  This is a very valid point and I run into this fairly frequently.
4:  A card that helps you win on turn 3 is win more.  I would argue that Sutured Ghoul, Dragon's Breath and Dread Return are not win more although they rarely do much before turn 3.

I am not saying that Servitor is optimal.  Dropping the black creature count is very bad.  I was just wondering what other's thoughts were on it.

[nataz]

@Meatbert

I've been testing Myr for about 2 weeks, or ever since I saw you post about it on SCG.

In terms of turn 2 disruption, I look at Myr like a worse Duress. To clarify, like duress, Myr needs to be both to be in your hand + have a mana producing land on the table. In addition, Myr, like duress, can be countered. This matters less for disruption, but more in the case of Dread Return.

This is in contrast to Ashen (which only needs a mana producing land), or Factory (which only needs to be in hand).

What I liked most about the Myr was the really explosive Turn 3's it could produce. As in, Cabal Therp multiple times + Dread Return. This is more important if you were not able to pull off a turn 1 Unmask.

But, overall, I agree with Steve's comment on trying to fill a turn 2 hole, rather then add to the turn three. We have lots of turn 3 plays, but Ichorid has very few turn 2 plays. I'd rather focus on improving my Turn 2 then adding in more Turn 3 disruption.

....

However, if you wanted to take out the unmask (for whatever reason), you could add in Myr to serve as a crutch on turn 3, while maybe saving space in the maindeck.

@ Steve

Did you ever get the chance to read my Myriad Report w/ Ichorid? I'm curious what you thought on my breakdown of the following:

-When to play ichorid
-Play the Strip Mine or the second Bazaar in my Goblins match
-Extirpate in general

Interestingly enough, it seems like we came to the same conclusions on Factory and Titan in the MD for an optimal build, but apparently we disagree about adding in mana sources. I want the mana in the MD so that I have room in my SB for ancient grudge, something in my opinion that is much better then just Chain in the SB.

here is the link if you haven’t seen it.

[Smmenen]

Regarding Phantasmagorian:
I have program that goldfishes Ichorid.  It shows that Shambling Shell > Gigapede > Phantasmagorian when undisrupted.  When Bazaar is Needled, Phantasmagorian becomes the best of the three.  Anyway, my point is that it is not so clear that Phantasmagorian is better than Shell.

Regarding Servitor.  There were three points:
1:  Servitor must start in your opponening hand +2.  The same could be said of Mishra's Factory.
2:  You must have a second land in your hand.  4 Factories + 4 Fields make this very likely is Steve's list.  I rarely have trouble casting with only 6 mana lands.
3:  You might have discard it to Unmask.  This is a very valid point and I run into this fairly frequently.
4:  A card that helps you win on turn 3 is win more.  I would argue that Sutured Ghoul, Dragon's Breath and Dread Return are not win more although they rarely do much before turn 3.

I am not saying that Servitor is optimal.  Dropping the black creature count is very bad.  I was just wondering what other's thoughts were on it.

Sometimes the things you say make so much sense and sometimes I read what you say and am struck with a "huh"?   Regarding 4: I didn't literally  mean a card that helps you win on turn three is win more.   The sentence I said after that should have clarified that point, i wrote: Turn two is when this deck needs to interact to fill gaps in its matchup wheel.  By "card" i mean disruption card.   A disruption card that helps you win on turn three is a win more.   What you need is disruption on turn two.  That's the weakness.  By "matchup wheel" I meant the range of possible matchups this deck faces.

Points 1 and 2 above are combined.  When you separate them you miss the critical linkage between them.

Regarding 3: you don't discard Servitor to Unmask. YOu discard Servitor so that you may unmask. 

Overall, I think the biggest problem is that it doens't interact on turn two - and if it does, you sacrifice the abitliy to actualy use the Servitor ability.  Ornthopter would be better.   

@Meatbert

I've been testing Myr for about 2 weeks, or ever since I saw you post about it on SCG.

In terms of turn 2 disruption, I look at Myr like a worse Duress. To clarify, like duress, Myr needs to be both to be in your hand + have a mana producing land on the table. In addition, Myr, like duress, can be countered. This matters less for disruption, but more in the case of Dread Return.

This is in contrast to Ashen (which only needs a mana producing land), or Factory (which only needs to be in hand).

What I liked most about the Myr was the really explosive Turn 3's it could produce. As in, Cabal Therp multiple times + Dread Return. This is more important if you were not able to pull off a turn 1 Unmask.

But, overall, I agree with Steve's comment on trying to fill a turn 2 hole, rather then add to the turn three. We have lots of turn 3 plays, but Ichorid has very few turn 2 plays. I'd rather focus on improving my Turn 2 then adding in more Turn 3 disruption.

@ Steve

Did you ever get the chance to read my Myriad Report w/ Ichorid? I'm curious what you thought on my breakdown of the following:

-When to play ichorid
-Play the Strip Mine or the second Bazaar in my Goblins match
-Extirpate in general

Interestingly enough, it seems like we came to the same conclusions on Factory and Titan in the MD for an optimal build, but apparently we disagree about adding in mana sources. I want the mana in the MD so that I have room in my SB for ancient grudge, something in my opinion that is much better then just Chain in the SB.

here is the link if you haven’t seen it.

Your decklist looks really good for a combined approach of fitting the 7 lands I've suggested before and the benefits of this list.   The only thing I would say is that you need 4 Needles in your board and a maindeck black lotus.   Otherwise, it looks nice.  Good job!

[Dark4Ever]

There's something I don't understand. Can't Extirpate remove Mishra's Factories? The only cards it cant't remove are basic lands.  So what happens when you face a Fish deck with Wastelands that splashes black for Extirpate?

[diopter]

There's something I don't understand. Can't Extirpate remove Mishra's Factories? The only cards it cant't remove are basic lands.  So what happens when you face a Fish deck with Wastelands that splashes black for Extirpate?

You proceed to win by via Ichorids and Shadows.

[Smmenen]

There's something I don't understand. Can't Extirpate remove Mishra's Factories? The only cards it cant't remove are basic lands.  So what happens when you face a Fish deck with Wastelands that splashes black for Extirpate?

No one is saying that Extirpate can't target Mishra's Factories.   

The point is that Extirpate hurts this deck because there are only 2 creatures that return that you can sacrifice to Dread Return: Ichorid and Nether Shadow.   If one of those creatures is Extirpated out of your deck, the presence of Mishra's Factory provides a buffer so that you have more creatures available to sacrifice to Dread Return.

This deck should be alot more played than it is.   It's got impressive matchups across the field with the only truly weak matchups being faster decks.   Empty the Warrens is pretty bad versus Ichorid. 

[oldbsturgeon]

edit: by the time i posted this 2 other replies had already addressed this
sure it "can" remove them, but i think the point is that with 4 factories as well it becomes very difficult to remove all of the necessary creatures in time before the deck goes off and has 4 creatures in play. even with dredging, strict bazaar dredging is such a superior way to find what you need in this deck, so your chances of finding those last few shadows or factories is really easy for this deck.
on another point i thought i would see if i could fit 2 lands in the main so that 2 duress could go in the board.
currently my board is
4 chain of vapor
4 underground sea
4 pithing needle
1 gemstone mine
2 duress
my thought was that if i could somehow get the 2 mines in the main right away that meant i could board in less stuff which is always great.
one thing that i will have to do is cut a thug for my sundering titan giving me 3 thugs, 3 shells.
the other option of course would be cut something like a field or factory but i seriously dont feel like doing that.
one nice thing about those 2 mines main is the fact that it becomes that much easier to cast the needles game 2.

[Dralock]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13795.html

Stephen Menendian's innovative Manaless Ichorid deck continues to evolve. Sure, it's fought its way through various hate in the form of Tormod's Crypt and Jotun Grunt... but can it handle the heat from the new boy in town, the mighty Extirpate? Stephen refines his deck further, and puts it through the mill of a local Vintage tournament...

Why do you continue to talk about yourself in the third person? Who else is going to write that blurb, really?

Ungh, I'm sure its a good article though. I still refuse to pay "premium" for a site that is talking about a card game.

Verbal warning for lack of content. If you want to complain about stuff like this, try the SCG forums, not here.
-Jacob

I can't report my own post to a moderator, please contact me via PM. Thank you.

[The Atog Lord]

Dralock -- perhaps you could explain that a little better?

[Prometheon]

 If one of those creatures is Extirpated out of your deck, the presence of Mishra's Factory provides a buffer so that you have more creatures available to sacrifice to Dread Return.

Why not run Basking Rootwalla? It doesn't synergise with Petrified Field, but it does synergize with Bazzar. The reality is that this deck often has to mulligan quite low. Lets say you go to 5 cards and have a Bazzar. You have an Unmask you'd like to use as well. bam, you're now down to 2 cards. By the time you reach your next main phase, you will have no cards in hand (because you have activated Bazaar twice), and any Factories or Fields you've drawn will be completely dead. If that Factory was a Rootwalla, it could now be on the table (possibly attacking for 1, as unexciting as that is) and then helping feed a therapy. I realize that this is a very specific/rare scenario, but I think Rootwalla should at least be considered if Factory is being touted as amazing. Afterall, Rootwalla has p/t to help feed ghoul, and is actually a creature for nether shadow to count.

Edit: To expand a little, Ichorid rarely sees things past it's opening hand +2. It would be interesting to see if Rootwalla could replace 1-2 factories in your list, Steve. They are better when mulling down to low amounts, and factory could still be accessed turn 3 with field if you really needed it.

[policehq]

During game 2, Basking Rootwalla, Shield Sphere, and Ornithopter do not tap to play Pithing Needle, thus they get the axe.

-hq

[Dralock]

Dralock -- perhaps you could explain that a little better?

I'd like to talk to a moderator about a verbal warning I recieved regarding my post and its content.

I believe PM would be much more appropriate than here.

PM Jacob Orlove.
-Godder

[warwizard87]

I would like to throw my 2 cents in here, first Stephen is the reason i actuly now own a mox LOL no kidding. I never meet him in person but i actuly top 8ed using the old ichorid build (the one with main deck chains and needles before dread return)  and learned to play the deck using his writtings as a guide to compare my own testing with.

Stephen question why don't you run  Phantasmagorian i find often the guy is +6/+6 to ghoul and lets me have beefy fat even with out eating my entire yard, also he acts as bazaar 5 and 6 vs needles and wastelands, in a pinch i have also dread returned him for a quick 6 (both ghouls had been powderd) I honeslty never used black lotus ever and layline of the void is just to helpfull (although i can see it being the thug i just seem to like having the .5 of a turn vs long, and the aid vs decks like gifts. I love shell its a dredger that aids my ghouls and feeds ichorids a all around good guy. 
(hehe as aside i have 4 artist signed ichorids a foil ghoul and a german ghoul, 2 foil imps, 2 foil chalaces, and a foil dread return almost pimp LOL )

    1 Strip Mine
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    3 Petrified Field
    3 City of Brass
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    2 Sutured Ghoul
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    2 Phantasmagorian
    2 Dread Return
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Serum Powder
    2 Dragon Breath
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Unmask
    1 Mox Jet
    4 Leyline of the Void

[Smmenen]

I would like to throw my 2 cents in here, first Stephen is the reason i actuly now own a mox LOL no kidding. I never meet him in person but i actuly top 8ed using the old ichorid build (the one with main deck chains and needles before dread return)  and learned to play the deck using his writtings as a guide to compare my own testing with.

Stephen question why don't you run  Phantasmagorian i find often the guy is +6/+6 to ghoul and lets me have beefy fat even with out eating my entire yard, also he acts as bazaar 5 and 6 vs needles and wastelands, in a pinch i have also dread returned him for a quick 6 (both ghouls had been powderd) I honeslty never used black lotus ever and layline of the void is just to helpfull (although i can see it being the thug i just seem to like having the .5 of a turn vs long, and the aid vs decks like gifts. I love shell its a dredger that aids my ghouls and feeds ichorids a all around good guy. 
(hehe as aside i have 4 artist signed ichorids a foil ghoul and a german ghoul, 2 foil imps, 2 foil chalaces, and a foil dread return almost pimp LOL )

First of all, the fact that Phanta is a 6/6 shouldn't be relevant.  That's because you can build your deck to retain everything you want and have enough power so that every single time you would be in a position to Dread Return Ghoul, you can do so for lethal.  It's simple math to figure that out.   My rule of thumb is that 60% of my library, randomly distributed, should be able to create a lethal swing. 

Second, I have 4 Petrified Fields - which are Bazaars 5-8 if you get Wasted.  It's true that Phanta helps if you get Needled, but if you are Needled on turn one before you even used a Bazaar - how are you getting Phanta into the GY in the first place?   It doesn't really solve the most problematic instance in whicy you face Needle.   

I agree that Phanta is good, but I think my list is just fine without him. 

[warwizard87]

The problem with petrified filed, i do play them as well, is it has to be in hand at some point to be played. Phanta (does any one else who types this get the wanta wanta fanta fanta song  stuck in their head when they type this?  :lol: ) an be dredged or discarded and still be useful, of course turn 1 needle is bad all around but phanta solves the turn 2 needle problem or the turn 1 or 2 wasteland problem when you did not get a petrified.

"That's because you can build your deck to retain everything you want and have enough power so that every single time you would be in a position to Dread Return Ghoul, you can do so for lethal.  It's simple math to figure that out.   My rule of thumb is that 60% of my library, randomly distributed, should be able to create a lethal swing.  ":
 
Truth, but my point here is i remove 2 phantas and i have a 12/12 were remove say 4 ichorids/shells is the same effect, i like the phanta as a catch all there allowing me to use less recorces to effectively kill. I don't want any surprises. Not to mention if ichorids are extirpated phantas give a huge body to the ghoul when you dread return since you normally would have to put a ichorid or 2 under him other wise. My math was basically 1 phanta=2 3/1 guys meaning i have more options just in case of ghoul getting killed or something important getting removed.