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Author Topic: The Meta-CCG: A Dr. Sylvan Project  (Read 3163 times)
Dr. Sylvan
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« on: March 20, 2007, 09:19:27 am »

Once again, I have started spending heaping loads of effort on little pieces of cardboard. However, it is not Type One, or even, specifically, Magic. Those of you who remember back in the Old Days (circa 2003-2005, preceded by the Old Old Days before I ever read TMD and the Really Old Days from before TMD existed) may recall that I am kind of a Big Picture guy, attracted to large data sets, comparing different versions of things, and generally trying to get together tournament results from all over the world to feed the data machine.

Well, my new project is in that vein, and I want TMD's input. I have started to combine the rules and cardpools of multiple collectible card games into one, all-encompassing Meta-CCG. For the past several weeks I've been working on the rules outline (it's definitely a far cry from the Comprehensive Rules, but it's a start), and the "Dictionary" that defines how someone would go about translating one game's terms into the hybrid rules. Eventually, I have ambitions to put together a sort of Canonical Translation Guide (the Meta-Oracle, so to speak).

The games I have included (or mostly included) so far are:

WotC Magic: the Gathering
WotC Star Wars
WotC BattleTech
Upper Deck Vs.
Decipher Star Wars
Precedence Babylon 5
Marvel OverPower

...and a couple of others that I may include later (like AEG's Legend of the Five Rings, which is a mechanical mess, and the Decipher Wars TCG), or just use as test cases to see how easy it is to merge other games into the rules once I have a framework.

My questions for you, TMD, are thus:

(1) How much interest is there in something like this? Do you want to see what I have so far?
(2) How many of you have played or currently play other CCGs?
(3) Have you ever heard of anything like this?

The most recent version of the rules is at: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/prstanto/www/metaccg.html
« Last Edit: March 20, 2007, 08:24:17 pm by Dr. Sylvan » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2007, 10:41:08 am »

Welcome back!

I actually don't play anything other than Magic, so I can't offer much insight.
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« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2007, 01:08:03 pm »

I'm having trouble understanding the goal/benefit of something like this.  Is it to attempt to beable to play one CCG against another?  Or to create some sort of Rosetta stone - to be able to move from CCG-A to CCG-B?

Because again, I'm not sure how useful it would be to have just a big list of Commonalites and differances between a pile of CCGs.

To answer your origial question, I have played some other CCGs, but none on your list.

Warlords
World of Warcraft:The card game

And assamed to admit---
Pokemon

The other problem, is that games like Warlords actaully spesifically attempt to be "not like any other CCG."  So im not sure how they would fall into the scope of this project.
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« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2007, 01:15:42 pm »

Needs more Netrunner!
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« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2007, 02:28:29 pm »

I would add Netrunner if I could find somewhere to buy a cardpool! (I'll admit, I haven't really tried that hard, but I have definitely heard good things about it.) I would include World of Warcraft, but it's ridiculously expensive, especially compared to less-new CCGs stores are only too happy to get rid of (especially the dead ones---think $8 booster boxes).

Harlequin: The goal is to be able to play multiple CCGs' cards in the same deck, doing a much broader array of things than any one game will let you. For instance, Vs is almost all creatures, Magic is (as only Type One players truly know) all about noncreature action, in Babylon 5 there are non-player forces that affect the game, in both WotC Star Wars and BattleTech units have speeds that affect combat, etc.

It's like designing my own "house rules" format for Magic, but with a few dozen extra expansion sets legalized.

I'm in the process of sorting my cards by function, instead of by game---it's like getting that new-set rush repeatedly, forever, because there's always some card you've never seen before in one of the games, and new sets coming out all the time for games I haven't even touched yet.
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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2007, 02:43:02 pm »

Couple games of my head:
Decipher:LotR
White Wolf:Vtes
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2007, 03:37:11 pm »

This sounds awesome. I would love to see these type of rules.
-T
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2007, 04:07:39 pm »

If you go through with this, Darth Vader will be able to wield a Jitte to take out Wolverine.

I've never heard of such an absurdly nerdy idea in my entire life, so I give it my stamp of approval.

Welcome back Doctor.  Very Happy
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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2007, 04:36:29 pm »

AEG: Doomtown.

Also, L5R is the second-oldest TCG, so I'd include it because of that, personally. Playing Magic made my L5R play and decks substantially better, because it taught me to focus decks on 1 or 2 things, as well as giving me a better understanding of Tempo, card advantage and resource management. L5R translates reasonably well, despite the mechanical issues.
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« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2007, 05:15:30 pm »

(1) How much interest is there in something like this? Do you want to see what I have so far?
Seeing as how I have several Limited Decipher Star Wars sets, I'm interested in seeing what you have so far.  Type 4 seems to be a great casual format.  This looks like a larger endeavor, but may be worth it.  I'm all for any format (or game) that deviates from DCI rules; if only for experimentation.

Quote
(2) How many of you have played or currently play other CCGs?
I've played the Decipher Star Wars game long ago.  Now I only play Vintage

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(3) Have you ever heard of anything like this?
No.  I don't think so.
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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2007, 06:48:50 pm »

I tried to combine Overpower and Magic once. It was not pretty.
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« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2007, 08:23:24 pm »

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If you go through with this, Darth Vader will be able to wield a Jitte to take out Wolverine.

Things like this have already happened in testing. Indeed, in a test game from before I distinguished between Flying and Space units, Wonder in the graveyard enabled Deadpool (and an additional OverPower card) to take out an Imperial Star Destroyer. It lends a certain boost to the flavorful fun.

Quote
L5R translates reasonably well, despite the mechanical issues.

I read through what I assume is a basic-level rulebook for it, and I have several hundred cards for it, so I'm sure it's going in, but I'm not so sure I agree with this statement. Smile All the dueling and focusing and Personal Honor---I know I can do it, but I decided to leave it as a strong test case; I want the rules I develop now to be able to handle even very different card games added later.

Decipher Star Wars and Babylon 5 have been the biggest challenges, for sure. I'd say at least half of the DSW cardpool refers specifically to some other exact cardnames or very narrow types of cards. It would be like publishing a Magic card that, instead of preventing discard in general, said "Counter Duress, Ostracize, or Coercion if you have a Whippoorwill at an Island location." And Babylon 5 doesn't have a life total. Think about that one.

Quote
I tried to combine Overpower and Magic once. It was not pretty.

Yeah, OverPower is the only game I've seen with no resource system. For the uninitiated: OverPower is vaguely like Type Four minus the drafting plus four 6-8 Power, 20 Toughness guys in play to start the game, with damage carrying over turn-to-turn.

For my purposes, I am going to just infer a mana cost for each card. Heroes have cmc = their highest attribute, Specials have a default cost of three mana, but the drawback is you must either have the specific Hero in play or revealed from your hand to cast it, and the version revealed/in play must have Power high enough to play the attack. It's not perfect, but then again it's not one of the games I've spent very much time on rules tweaking for.

The most up-to-date version of the rules is at: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/prstanto/www/metaccg.html (I'll also edit that into the first post for easy reference.)

Some of the things that would really distinguish this from Magic are:

(1) Creatures cannot be countered! They don't count as spells here. (Cards that specifically counter creatures like Exclude are, er, excluded from this provision and still work as expected, but you can't FoW a Tog.) I did this for a few reasons, mostly because I didn't want this game to just be a deep-card-pool Type One---which it would be if I didn't neuter blue in serious ways. Magic's noncreature spells are by far the most powerful of any game I've seen, at least in one-to-one conversion, and creatures hardly stand a chance against it. I also want it to be very hard to design decks without creatures. I'm thinking about banning Swords to Plowshares simply to encourage creature play.

(2) Creatures are so good. Vs characters are so huge per-mana that I decided the most elegant way to balance them was to give them all Echo.

(3) Removal of Storm. I hate combo, so I'm making any aspiring combo player really work for it. My VERY preliminary B&R ideas are towards the bottom of the linked page.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2007, 08:32:02 pm by Dr. Sylvan » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2007, 01:01:44 am »

You should add Illuminati: New World Order. That game has cards you will not find anywhere else, especially if you want to go multiplayer with this.
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« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2007, 03:44:38 am »

You should add Illuminati: New World Order. That game has cards you will not find anywhere else, especially if you want to go multiplayer with this.

I was just about to suggest Illuminati, although for some reason it doesn't seem like it would fit well with other CCG's.

On another note, welcome back Dr. Sylvan. Smile
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« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2007, 08:34:06 am »

You should add WoTC's Harry Potter TCG.  And consider WoW, although I hate all incarnations of that franchise.
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« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2007, 03:54:15 pm »

There was this sweet game called Guardian's that I used to play. You should look into it if you have the time.

The art work was amazing! Brom FTW!
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« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2007, 05:04:22 pm »

Thanks for all the suggestions. I will definitely be including more games as I go; I just haven't gotten to everything yet. My goal is to be able to, once I know any CCG's rules, integrate it into the Meta-CCG seamlessly from the basic framework by finding equivalent concepts to tie together.

I've already started creating the Meta-Oracle, and it's going smoothly thus far. Templating is challenging, but fortunately Type One has taught me a lot.

Did anyone check out the rules I linked to? Any thoughts on it?
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