0 Toughness Creature(s)

[Imzakhor]

This is probably only good if a cycle is created, otherwise it requires something to keep itself alive, while having nothing to share in the synergy.

UU
Shimmering Vision
Creature -- Illusion
Flying
4/0

UU
Shimmering Vision
Creature -- Illusion
Flying
(Creatures with zero toughness are placed in the graveyard.)
4/0
I think a cycle of creatures, type "Vision", with enormous power and zero toughness, would be very cool. There is no need for an upkeep cost: it already requires something else to keep it alive.

Shadow as evasion would also be in flavor, instead of flying, but I thought to introduce this type of card as simply as possible.

[jro]

I kind of like this idea, but I think the set of cards that work well with it is too small, and the design space for making cards that work well with it is pretty small.  Basically, you have to have a permanent toughness-boosting static ability that applies to creatures of whatever type this is (or all creatures).  If it could at least also play well with say +1/+1 counters, then I think it might be okay.  It still has the problem of being terrible except when it's really really good, though.  I don't see how you can do a cycle of these in a set without lots of support for them, and if it were a cycle the support would have to be in every color.

[The Atog Lord]

Imagine the prerelease! How many judges would have to inform Little Timmy that his shiny new creature he just summoned is actually dead because he...summoned it? It's non-obvious that a creature with zero toughness dies, and might even require some reminder text. Overall, I agree that this card has very narrow design space and may cause confusion among new players.

That said, this does represent some very out-of-the-box thinking.

[Imzakhor]

I read in the rules here that card cycles are ok, but don't do too many... Should I go ahead and display the support cards?

[Anusien]

Actually, I feel like this would be more solid as either a vertical cycle or not a cycle at all.  I think this has a lot of interest because of its uniqueness.  Maybe just a really splashy rare?

[Imzakhor]

I don't think there are any good enchantments/artifacts for giving tiny bonuses to toughness, which is what these need.

Reality Break
UU
Enchantment
Illusions and Visions gain +1/+1.
When Reality Break comes into play, you may pay UU. If you do, search your library for a Reality Break card, and put it into play.
They aren't real, are they?

Insanity
UBR
Enchantment
Illusions and Visions are unblockable.
Creature cards with Illusion or Vision creature types can't be countered.

[Anusien]

I don't think like this is a good candidate for a linear mechanic.  I think these will only be interesting because they really new and splashy.  I'm really uncomfortable with making a big (~10 cards) theme dealing with creatures that literally can't stand on their own.

Also, you can't have two cards with the same name.

[Imzakhor]

There was only supposed to be one Reality Break card... I removed the other one.

[Norm4eva]

Didn't the last thread with 0 toughness guys get stomped into limbo?  Something about the inherent unintuitive nature of men with no p/t, which I don't necessarily agree with.
At any rate I like these cards so far, but the UBR one just seems like a really obvious enabler.  The abilities don't mean much when paired together.

[Anusien]

Actually, I feel like this would be more solid as either a vertical cycle or not a cycle at all.  I think this has a lot of interest because of its uniqueness.  Maybe just a really splashy rare?

Something like:
<Name> - 4UU
Creature - Illusion
Flying, Flash
Whenever <this> deals combat damage, draw a card.
6/0

The reason I'm pushing it this direction is because I'm really uncomfortable putting more than one of this card at common or even multiples at all.  Bad cards are fine, but I don't think "Creatures that are unplayable on their own" is a good thing to push.  Screws Limited pretty badly.

[Imzakhor]

I was thinking that these creatures feed on enchantments - the raw magic of enchantments. Thus, the enchantments that will 'feed' them, also enable them... Like the UBR enchantment mentioned above. Kind of like slivers, but where the 'SLIVERNESS' of the cards is actually in the enchantments.

For the creature introduced above, for example... An enchantment would give the flash and card draw, but to all Ilusions/Visions. As a flying 6/0, maybe UUU, or UU1.

Ooo, new thought: maybe all the Visions are solid blue, and all the enchantments have other colors. Ooooooo...........

[Darkenslight]

What about this 'cycle' of enchantments?

Visionary Strike     
Enchantment - Aura

Enchant Creature - Vision
Enchanted creature gains +0/+2 and Trample.

for White:

Visionary Watchers 
Creature - Vision
Each Vision gets +1/+1 and 'Whenever this creature deals damage, you gain that much life'.
2/0

Red:

Visions of Fury
Creature - Vision
Each Vision gets +2/+1 and First Strike.
3/0

Garan, Visionary Preacher
Legendary Creature - Vision Lord
Haste, double strike, Protection from non-Visions
When Garan comes into play, you may reveal your hand and play all Visions revealed this way.  If you do, all Visions have Haste this turn.
3/1

[Imzakhor]

That's what I was talking about. I also think every enchantment should have at least "+0/+1" so any of them can keep the Visions alive. Some of your enablers are creatures, which gets away from the 0 toughness idea. Also, the first one is an aura, which can't help keep things alive that have 0 toughness.

Except you stole my thunder by creating the Vision Lord. Sniff. I wanted to do that. He should definitely have a 0 toughness too.

Maybe a new ability for Visions?

Visionary (gains +0/+1 for each enchantment you control)

Oh boy, maybe a new generic ability??

[X] Monger: (gains +0/+1 for each X you control)

[Anusien]

So now you're looking at 3 cards that are literal blanks if you don't draw this 0 toughness creature (and even then, you need A LOT of them), and an overpriced Lord that goes broken.  I don't see this mechanic ever being fair.  It's liinear, which encourages you to play a lot of it, and it gets better exponentially.  It seems like this either absolutely sucks because you don't get the right mix, or it's batshit insane because the synergies are that good.  And that sort of simple interaction is not conducive to a healthy Constructed or Limited environment.  If you want to push this theme, you need to do so more subtlety.  Instead of having things that boost Visions, have general toughness boosters, and Pandemonium style effects.  This recent block would have been a decent fit because it has things like Pandemonium and Gaea's Anthem.  Look for those ways to advance the mechanic instead of shoving it down player's throats.  But again, this kind of mechanic really shouldn't dominate a set because it's too stifling.

[Norm4eva]

How do you keep this idea from turning into a Sliver alternative?  Right now it's shaping up to be "it's Slivers, only instead of Slivers, it's VISIONS".  I know, there's lots of creatures which pump other creature types, but Slivers are unique in that virtually every last non-artifact Sliver adds to the hive.  You have to be careful in doling out abilities.  I like the idea of having 0 toughness guys + tiny global enchants which make them gooder.  Example:

Vision Fat
U
Enchantment

Visions get +0/+1 and have islandwalk.

plus

Visions of DanDan
UU
Creature - Vision

4/0

As long as you're crafty about which abilities are given out, you can undercost pretty much every spell without worrying about just being a Sliver sequel or outshining other aggro.

[jro]

The problem with the Visions / enchantments-that-pump-Visions is that both cards suck by themselves.  What if non-Vision cards that were okay in their own right had static abilities that could pump Visions?  For instance:

Future Visions
U
Sorcery
Draw a card.
As long as this is in your graveyard, all Visions get +0/+1.

But the mechanic is still very linear, and really just not interesting enough to dominate a set.  I think these cards might be best if they were like the Spirit of the Night or The Unspeakable "cycles".

[Imzakhor]

A slight change, for flavor of the previous card:

Vision of Death
B
Sorcery
Draw a card.
As long as this is in your graveyard, all Visions get +0/+1.
His life flashed before his eyes. Then, it was gone.

Excellent, beautiful, elegant. Good point on giving the enablers something positive and minor.

As noted earlier, I would like to keep all the critters as straight blue (no colorless, even), and all of the enablers in other colors, or multi- with blue. It is also important to keep the Vision creatures at suck level, by themselves. U for a 2/0 flyer, UU for a 4/0 flyer, or UUU for a 6/0 flyer really sucks. BUT, given the enablers, you get real synergy, and the cards become quite powerful, as intended.

A cycle of these little enchantments could be very neat.

Vision of Life
W
Enchantment
Draw a card.
As long as you have equal or less life than each opponent, all Visions get +0/+1.
His prayers were answered as far as he asked. But, no more.

Vision of Vengeance
R
Enchantment
Draw a card.
As long as you have more life than each opponent, all Visions get +0/+1.
Vengeance would be his. But, only once.

Sustaining Vision
G
Enchantment
Draw a card.
As long as you control more enchantments than each opponent, all Visions get +0/+1.
The table was set. But, dining on magic is not common cuisine.

[Anusien]

I don't think that making them cantrip fundamentally solves the issues of the cards.  Can you meet my objections head on so we can discuss them instead of arguing by side effects?

[Imzakhor]

So now you're looking at 3 cards that are literal blanks if you don't draw this 0 toughness creature (and even then, you need A LOT of them), and an overpriced Lord that goes broken.  I don't see this mechanic ever being fair.  It's liinear, which encourages you to play a lot of it, and it gets better exponentially.  It seems like this either absolutely sucks because you don't get the right mix, or it's batshit insane because the synergies are that good.  And that sort of simple interaction is not conducive to a healthy Constructed or Limited environment.  If you want to push this theme, you need to do so more subtlety.  Instead of having things that boost Visions, have general toughness boosters, and Pandemonium style effects.  This recent block would have been a decent fit because it has things like Pandemonium and Gaea's Anthem.  Look for those ways to advance the mechanic instead of shoving it down player's throats.  But again, this kind of mechanic really shouldn't dominate a set because it's too stifling.

I think what I would suggest would be three creatures:
U, 2/0 Flying (This one might need to be 3/0) (Common)
UU, 4/0 Flying (Uncommon)
UUU, 6/0 Flying (Rare)

The cycle of enablers could be changed to be more generic, like this:
Vision of Death
B
Sorcery
Draw a card.
As long as this is in your graveyard, your creatures get +0/+1.
His life flashed before his eyes. Then, it was gone.

I like this. You CANNOT play the creatures without enablers. I would also suggest that the "Vision of ..." enablers keep their naming system, so that there is deference to them being important for a Vision Creature deck. They would STILL be useful to other creature styles.

These cheap, cantrip creature boosters should NOT have power boost. They are also quite conditional, which is OK: these kinds of cards start at 1B (Bad Moon), so anything less should have a penalty. The cantrip keeps it useful, and balances the lack of power boost.

I would suggest that the black enabler is uncommon, the others common. There should be a couple of multicolor enablers that give other abilities too... But all related enablers should give at least (or exactly) +0/+1.

[parallax]

For the record, I was the one who stomped the last thread about 0-toughness creatures into the ground. That thread was proposing a large number of zero-toughness creatures which functioned exactly like instants. I have no problems with a single splashy rare or vertical cycle.

How about you combine the last two ideas:

Minor Vision

Creature -- Illusion
2/0
Flying
As long as Minor Vision is in your graveyard, all Illusions get +0/+1.

[Imzakhor]

A good idea. Should probably put "As long as *** Vision is in your graveyard, all Visions get +0/+1" on every one of the creatures, without being out of balance for their cost, even with the enabling enchantments.

Note: these are Visions, not Illusions. If we make these bump up Illusions, we would have to take into account all previous Illusions printed, which I have not done.

Also, note that the enchantments affect all your creatures, this new Vision text is Vision-only, for both players. Was that intended? This is not REALLY supposed to be Slivers part II, though there are similarities. Affecting only your creatures was part of the charm, for me.

An interesting note: there could be some very interesting needs for giving your opponent's creatures first strike during combat, with this new text added!

[parallax]

Sorry. My implicit but unstated suggestion was to make these Illusions, as that is what they seem to be, flavorwise. Generally, if there is an existing creature type that fits the flavor, I'd rather use that than make a new creature type. It keeps the game consistent across blocks, helps to combat the "creature type soup", and allows the cards to have more potential interactions, which are all good things.

[Nydaeli]

According to MTGSalvation, the following card will be in Future Sight:

Force of Savagery
 
Creature - Elemental
Trample
8/0

Congratulations, I guess.

[zimagic]

According to MTGSalvation, the following card will be in Future Sight:

Force of Savagery
 
Creature - Elemental
Trample
8/0

Congratulations, I guess.

Yep, that's like the 3rd card to appear in a recent set that was discussed/created here. If the timing were'nt totally off, I'd call shenanigans!

Still it's all a bit twilight zone. Maybe the spoiler stories aren't so far fateched after all.....

[Imzakhor]

I just saw this on Salvation. Apparently I'm not so crazy.

Salvation lists it as:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45797&stc=1&d=1176468659

Force of Savagery   2G
Creature - Elemental
Trample
8/0

I had UUU for a flying 6/0... This basically gets an evasion and two more power, with an easier casting cost. Accounting for the difference? The fact that I had some developed support cards for the U ones. As a one-of, "Force of Savagery" is right on target.