Ancient Archive - The Eternal Format Only Set

[Imzakhor]

One of the problems with coming up with inventive new cards is the absurd prospect of making them suitable for print in a limited environment, while sneaking in abilities that have utility to us, the Eternal lovers. This, like most things, got me thinking.

I think WotC should print a set of cards on the old power scale: let's call it 'Ancient Archive'. It should have cards on the old power scale: you know R for 3 damage, U for 3 cards, what have you. I also think it goes without saying that the set should be printed in the old format, with the old symbols.

The key? The set would not be in any block, and would not be legal for Standard or Limited play. Ever. This would allow their designers the freedom to unleash their most powerful ideas.

Now now, please, hear me out. I know you are all clawing at your monitors to tell me I'm batshit insane, and they would never, EVER support our format, because they make no money from us. That is the OBVIOUS answer. Let's be positive, and STAY positive, and see if we can come up with some reasons why they SHOULD do this.

I will go first! I do not currently buy boxes of cards. Nor do any of my buddies, of which I can count at least two dozen, who NEVER buy boxes. The reason is obvious: we ONLY play T1, so why should we buy boxes of CRAP for our format, when we can get anything I want for orders of magnitude less money from eBay?

We are all professionals, too: a lawyer, a Ph.D., a biochemist, Lead Graphic designer at EA, a couple programmers, to name a few. We have plenty of disposable income, and I am guessing that many other T1 players are older, and therefore, in all likelihood also are making more money than when they started M:tG. So, where we lack in numbers, we make up for it with more disposable income. I would like to buy boxes that support my hobby, but I can't justify it now. I could with 'Ancient Archive'.

I would like to apologize in advance if this post is in the wrong forum (card creation seemed logical). I did my due diligence to search for articles similar to this, and couldn't find any.

Stay positive, and thanks for reading!

[zimagic]

It's an Un-set for Eternal? Why not. People buy UN-sets so financially it could be a runner.

The only propblem I'd have with this is that your encouraging R&D to push the power envelope in two of the most powerful enviornments. Do you not think that a set dedicated to eternal power creep would not cause those formats to be even a little more draw & roll dependant?

[Imzakhor]

I had figured that a huge part of their motivation would be to get more people to buy the cards, and thus, be able to compete in T1 with the new cards. I'm sure they would print equally powerful hosers to keep the field dynamic. They could force the legitimacy of a vast number of new decks, just by printing a single new set.

[lordmayhem]

Now now, please, hear me out. I know you are all clawing at your monitors to tell me I'm batshit insane, and they would never, EVER support our format, because they make no money from us. That is the OBVIOUS answer.

That may be the obvious answer to you, but in actuality, the obvious answer is because the "power cards of yore" are design MISTAKES. "What the fuck were we smoking?" kind of mistakes. So reprints, as well as cards based on that kind of power scale are most probably out of the question.

[Imzakhor]

Now now, please, hear me out. I know you are all clawing at your monitors to tell me I'm batshit insane, and they would never, EVER support our format, because they make no money from us. That is the OBVIOUS answer.

That may be the obvious answer to you, but in actuality, the obvious answer is because the "power cards of yore" are design MISTAKES. "What the fuck were we smoking?" kind of mistakes. So reprints, as well as cards based on that kind of power scale are most probably out of the question.

We already have cards in the pool on that power scale in T1, and you are limited by the 60 card rule. Adding more cards at that "power level" does not make decks more powerful. Theoretically, it simply gives more choices, and also, more deck archetypes, too.

I'm not saying they should print more Ancestral Recalls. Far from it; that card got restricted in our format. I am talking about a set where all the cards are in the correct power-scale, as 4-ofs. Introducing more restricted cards - design 'mistakes' - would be something to avoid, unless they desire a few rares in the new set to introduce new archetypes, with a power card the is sooo required to be restricted in the new archetype.

[Demonic Attorney]

Moved to Basic User Community.

[LotusHead]

are you suggesting red bordered cards as opposed to silver or gold that are legal in vintange/legacy?

I support this, but do not advocate it at the moment.

I love Vintage/T1 and am super happy that 10 proxies is standard where I live (Northern California/America at large) to let us oldschool folks play Black Vice or cards that actually affect the game.

Creating NEW cards with Vintage Power Levels happen all the time, but only a few per set.  Think Gifts, Bob, ETW.

Wizards is doing fine.  They do make some money off Vintage players because some of us play two formats. Vintage and FNM Booster Drafts. (Wizards gets my 10 bucks every week because I am a Magic Addict, even if my T2, Ext and Leg decks all suck.)

I am terrified of Wizards making even a 50 Un-Vintage Set legal in Vintage.  Vintage is doing fine, and with 10 proxies (or 5 or 15), regular Joe's can play T1. (Europe must suck with no proxies!)

[Matt]

I notice in your group of professionals, there are no business-types. I apply the Ferrett's logic here:

Such a set would undoubtedly sell well. But, they could never make another like it. This is the kind of thing a good business will keep around until they are about to go out of business if they don't generate some sales. Seeing this set in print is a very bad sign.

[Imzakhor]

I notice in your group of professionals, there are no business-types. I apply the Ferrett's logic here:

Such a set would undoubtedly sell well. But, they could never make another like it. This is the kind of thing a good business will keep around until they are about to go out of business if they don't generate some sales. Seeing this set in print is a very bad sign.

...The obvious inference being that I/we don't understand marketing/sales. Why could they never make another like it? Why couldn't they actually make a Vintage block, and keep making them? There is no reason not to... UNLESS it sold poorly.

They get none of my money currently. This is not some kind of "jump-the-shark" moment. This is an untapped market that WotC is foolish for not exploring.

[Methuselahn]

I love the idea of Wizards getting more involved in Eternal.  The problem is, they're not attuned to the formats AT ALL.  Introducing a whole set would probably turn Vintage into 7 card stud poker, essentially.  Dumping a whole set of cards that are on par with the rest of the (Vintage) format would only make it even more swingy and broken.

[Titanium Dragon]

This is a very bad idea for a very large number of reasons. A few to be examined:

1)   Type 1 can never be a popular format
Wizards of the Coast cannot make this a popular sanctioned format because there are 15,000 Black Lotuses. This is an insurmountable problem. Wizards of the Coast is not going to reprint Black Lotus, the rest of the Power 9, Bazaar of Baghdad, or Mishra’s Workshop. This simply will not occur. They see these cards as reinforcing the power of Magic as a collectible card game, and getting rid of their rarity would destroy their reputation as a producer of collectibles, which is worth more money to them in the long run than this set would bring in.
The consequence of this is that this could not sell well to the type 1 crowd because there isn’t enough of them to sell well to, and it is not as if Legacy needs a power boost; card rarity in that format is not an issue, and there are (apparently) more than enough dual lands and lightning bolts to go around in that format.
Intentionally selling a set targeting Type 1 players, therefore, is a mistake.
2)   It would mess up casual for years.
Casual players don’t really have to deal with people whipping out Swords to Plowshares, Moxen, Lightning Bolts, and similarly absurdly powerful spells. This set would reintroduce absurdly powerful cards into casual, and casual players would not enjoy it on the whole. This is obviously a bad thing (TM), as Wizards is trying to reach out to casual players right now. Moreover, even apart from that, casual players make up a huge proportion of the Magic playing public; not selling to them is missing a large potential audience. This is why Un-sets can be made.
3)   It wouldn’t sell well.
The long, the short, and the middle of it is that standard and extended are the two most popular constructed formats, and saying “no” to them is to doom the set to poor sales. People want to play with their new cards, and they wouldn’t be able to. Wizards knows this is a bad idea, and it would hurt sales.

In the end, this isn’t a good idea for any number of reasons, but these are the three biggest ones. Beyond this, such a set could permanently screw up the formats, resulting in less fun after the “Type 1” set comes out. And really, who wants that?

[Hi-Val]

What new "old power level" stuff is there even left to explore? You can't put in creatures because the spells are just going to be better. Do you want U for 2 cards? R3 for Wheel of Fortune? This nostalgia set would never be as powerful as the original mistake cards and it doesn't seem like one could design it to be enjoyable.

[Imzakhor]

It couldn't mess up casual. Long before I started with tournaments, I remember popping packs open and gawking at AWESOMELY powerful creatures and spells. I certainly wouldn't have looked at the most powerful and say, "This makes me vomit, it's going to totally wreck the metagame."

Type 1 *is* a popular format. It's just the cost of entry is prohibitive. What if WotC created a set that eased the entry into fully viable decks? It would be so easy to do. All you have to do is make small, simple spells that have utility, and counter-defeat high powered decks. Such as:

1WU creature , 2/2 null rod on legs.
2UU Storm sorcery, take control of target creature.
XR Storm, destroy target artifact with casting cost X.
GGGG creature, can't be countered, 5/5.
1 artifact, artifacts can't be played.

If you get a whole set of cards like this, that will create an environment where powered decks are equal in winability to unpowered. It's really not that hard to do.

There may be fewer people playing Vintage, but I contend that those people can buy more cards, per person... Not to mention the self-fulfillment of not supporting the T1 format, so there isn't a T1 format. I know my sum of 0 boxes purchased yearly could be improved to WotC's liking.

And hey, if it kills Vintage, isn't that what Wizards wants anyway? They can't lose!

[Vegeta2711]

[qupte]Type 1 *is* a popular format. [/quote]

Um... short answer, no.

[zeus-online]

It couldn't mess up casual. Long before I started with tournaments, I remember popping packs open and gawking at AWESOMELY powerful creatures and spells. I certainly wouldn't have looked at the most powerful and say, "This makes me vomit, it's going to totally wreck the metagame."

Type 1 *is* a popular format. It's just the cost of entry is prohibitive. What if WotC created a set that eased the entry into fully viable decks? It would be so easy to do. All you have to do is make small, simple spells that have utility, and counter-defeat high powered decks. Such as:

1WU creature , 2/2 null rod on legs.
2UU Storm sorcery, take control of target creature.
XR Storm, destroy target artifact with casting cost X.
GGGG creature, can't be countered, 5/5.
1 artifact, artifacts can't be played.

If you get a whole set of cards like this, that will create an environment where powered decks are equal in winability to unpowered. It's really not that hard to do.

There may be fewer people playing Vintage, but I contend that those people can buy more cards, per person... Not to mention the self-fulfillment of not supporting the T1 format, so there isn't a T1 format. I know my sum of 0 boxes purchased yearly could be improved to WotC's liking.

And hey, if it kills Vintage, isn't that what Wizards wants anyway? They can't lose!

Honestly, the cards you are suggesting would probably not even make the cut in the current enviroment...

Oh yeah and any card with "Storm" is gonna be good for the powered decks and bad for the unpowered.

/Zeus

[Titanium Dragon]

1WU creature , 2/2 null rod on legs.
2UU Storm sorcery, take control of target creature.
XR Storm, destroy target artifact with casting cost X.
GGGG creature, can't be countered, 5/5.
1 artifact, artifacts can't be played.

In order:

This card might be played in T1, though its casting cost is a bit prohibitive so I doubt it – Null Rod is marginal even as a colorless card.
This card would not be played at all in T1, but is horribly broken for other formats, including legacy (Control Magic no longer exists; this spell is infinitely stronger and would probably cost 9 mana)
This card is worse than Shattering Spree
This card will see absolutely no play whatsoever; Rumbling Slum is better and still doesn’t see play outside of Ravnica block constructed
This is a ridiculously strong hoser, and is greatly undercosted – Null Rod has a weaker effect, still sometimes sees play, and costs 2 more mana. This would also screw up decks in other formats which used, say, signets, and would probably cause problems in legacy.

One of the five suggested cards would probably see play in vintage, one of them would not see play anywhere, and one of them would only screw over casual and legacy players.

If you get a whole set of cards like this, that will create an environment where powered decks are equal in winability to unpowered.

Frankly, no. You simply cannot make a deck without Black Lotus better than a deck with Black Lotus. Black Lotus is just that good. Yes, some builds of manaless ichorid briefly ran without Black Lotus, but in the end it has become necessary again.

There may be fewer people playing Vintage, but I contend that those people can buy more cards, per person...

This is totally irrelevant. Yes, if you can afford a full set of power you can afford more cards than the average player, but consider that even if you each spent five times as much as the average player, you’re still a market many, many times smaller (probably about a hundred times smaller) than the rest of the Magic market.

And hey, if it kills Vintage, isn't that what Wizards wants anyway?

How much does it cost to produce a set? I’d wager a large quantity of money. If it tanks, they’re out all that money. And they don’t want to kill T1; they just know that it is a format which cannot grow, given that at best there can't be more than 15,000 constructed level T1 decks at any one time, and most likely the number actually doesn't even reach five digits due to lost cards, players who possess power but don't/won't play with it, people who own multiple copies of Black Lotus and other power cards, and the like.

[Imzakhor]

OMG... I wasn't actually suggesting THOSE cards. Simply the theory that it would not be difficult to come up with cards that could turn the tables on fully powered decks. If that wasn't clear, it should be now.

edit: It's kind of the "If you build it, they will come" mentality. There are so many people that play Magic, that don't play Vintage. For the most part, they don't play because it's expensive to enter, and Wizards doesn't support it. The set of people that don't play because it's "not fun" exists as well.

If Wizards DID produce this set, that would count as supporting it. The cost of entry would absolutely crash as well, assuming (which I am!) that the set allows for multiple Tier 1 viabilities to new entrants into Vintage. Being able to compete with fully powered decks would be exciting; defeating Mr. Power 9 with a small priced deck has its own satisfaction, i.e. fun, for people that weren't interested in T1 before. Those are three roadblocks to full viability, and all have been manadrained... Err, countered.

Think outside the box for a moment. Don't focus on the cards I threw out there, as they weren't meant to represent concrete ideas, just the theory. Don't think about a set that makes equivalent cards to what we have now, as that would (as previously suggested) tank the collectibility. As mentioned, a 3R Wheel of Fortune does NOT make anyone want to buy 'Ancient Archive'. Think about a set that allows someone with limited funds to enter the Vintage scene with punitive answers to Lotus, Will, A. Recall etc., and defeat those decks using the new cards (whatever they might be). I think that would be exciting.

Thanks for reading!

[zeus-online]

Sounds like a set full of cards for U/R Fish....

I don't like the idea one bit, i'd much rather have them reprint the power and ban will, or something like that.

/Zeus

[Bulls on Parade]

I posted on SCG that I thought it would be cool if WotC did something similar to the Pro Player cards with Vintage staples (or hell, even new cards that would be playable in Vintage)- because no one seems to like Pro Player cards, why not do Vintage staples that are equally not Magic cards just as Pro Player cards are not Magic cards- something like Balance with a different back and different layout or something, so new players could see the powerful old cards and play with them in casual decks but not in tournaments. It's not like it would be at the cost of anything because obviously no one wants a Pro Player card, and it would definitely pique interest in Vintage. Maybe they could even make them legal for just Vintage.

I do like your idea as well.

[Draven]

OMG... I wasn't actually suggesting THOSE cards. Simply the theory that it would not be difficult to come up with cards that could turn the tables on fully powered decks. If that wasn't clear, it should be now.

edit: It's kind of the "If you build it, they will come" mentality. There are so many people that play Magic, that don't play Vintage. For the most part, they don't play because it's expensive to enter, and Wizards doesn't support it. The set of people that don't play because it's "not fun" exists as well.

If Wizards DID produce this set, that would count as supporting it. The cost of entry would absolutely crash as well, assuming (which I am!) that the set allows for multiple Tier 1 viabilities to new entrants into Vintage. Being able to compete with fully powered decks would be exciting; defeating Mr. Power 9 with a small priced deck has its own satisfaction, i.e. fun, for people that weren't interested in T1 before. Those are three roadblocks to full viability, and all have been manadrained... Err, countered.

Think outside the box for a moment. Don't focus on the cards I threw out there, as they weren't meant to represent concrete ideas, just the theory. Don't think about a set that makes equivalent cards to what we have now, as that would (as previously suggested) tank the collectibility. As mentioned, a 3R Wheel of Fortune does NOT make anyone want to buy 'Ancient Archive'. Think about a set that allows someone with limited funds to enter the Vintage scene with punitive answers to Lotus, Will, A. Recall etc., and defeat those decks using the new cards (whatever they might be). I think that would be exciting.

Thanks for reading!

I think the issue with an all Vintage playable set is even in Alpha (most powerful set ever made, oops) had Laces. You can't make a set of all playable cards. You will always have Laces and One With Nothings.

The other issue I have is there are plenty of cheap answers to the powerful cards (fast mana, Will etc.) Namely Chalice and Crypt. The problem with those stratagies is there are always random rogue decks. I can very easily throw together a deck that will absolutly destroy decks like gifts and Long (Chalice, Rod, Crypt, Leyline etc), however, the first fish deck it run's into blows it out of the water.

I don't know. I don't mean to trash the idea, I just don't see it it working mechanically. Plus like someone else said I think, either the whole set is completly un playable becasue Wizards doesn't want to make more "mistakes" or the entire set is ridiculous.

Just for fun, I tried to come up with a card that would be riduclous in Vintage:

U
Instant
Target player can not draw cards this turn, for every card they would draw, draw a card.
Split Second

W
Instant
Gain 2 Life
Storm
If a spell or ability controlled by an opponant causes you to discard this, gain 2 life instead.

This would be on the power level (I think) of cards that would have to make it into the set. I actually think the white one wouldn't be too bad right now. It may just push people over the edge to EtW and stop using ToA all together.

[Imzakhor]

I think the issue with an all Vintage playable set is even in Alpha (most powerful set ever made, oops) had Laces. You can't make a set of all playable cards. You will always have Laces and One With Nothings.

It seems obvious to me that at the very least, they have an idea of what they are doing now, unlike during Alpha. You won't see a lot of Creature Bond, Psychic Venom, and Lifelace. At the VERY least, the art is better now.

The other issue I have is there are plenty of cheap answers to the powerful cards (fast mana, Will etc.) Namely Chalice and Crypt. The problem with those stratagies is there are always random rogue decks. I can very easily throw together a deck that will absolutly destroy decks like gifts and Long (Chalice, Rod, Crypt, Leyline etc), however, the first fish deck it run's into blows it out of the water.

With a well designed 'Ancient Archive', they could create cards that are not so niche as to be useless against all but a few hard targets, but still are good hate vs. their intended targets... Like the cards you described.

I don't know. I don't mean to trash the idea, I just don't see it it working mechanically. Plus like someone else said I think, either the whole set is completly un playable becasue Wizards doesn't want to make more "mistakes" or the entire set is ridiculous.

Just for fun, I tried to come up with a card that would be riduclous in Vintage:

U
Instant
Target player can not draw cards this turn, for every card they would draw, draw a card.
Split Second

W
Instant
Gain 2 Life
Storm
If a spell or ability controlled by an opponant causes you to discard this, gain 2 life instead.

This would be on the power level (I think) of cards that would have to make it into the set. I actually think the white one wouldn't be too bad right now. It may just push people over the edge to EtW and stop using ToA all together.

Now that's the spirit. How great would it be for Vintage to not just get the sloppy seconds out of each set, and instead, gain 100-150 new cards to drool over, all designed for US? I think that would be awesome.


Thanks for reading!

[freakish777]

I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet, but the other problem here is that Wizards only has so much time to create new sets with.  Why spend any amount of time creating sets for Eternal? 

I mean the whole reason Standard rotates is to keep people buying new cards at each rotation, time spent making entire sets for Eternal only play is money lost.

[Titanium Dragon]

edit: It's kind of the "If you build it, they will come" mentality. There are so many people that play Magic, that don't play Vintage. For the most part, they don't play because it's expensive to enter, and Wizards doesn't support it. The set of people that don't play because it's "not fun" exists as well.

Nothing you do short of reprinting power will reduce the barrier to entry to Vintage; the moxen, Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk are that strong. WotC is not going to do that, period.

I posted on SCG that I thought it would be cool if WotC did something similar to the Pro Player cards with Vintage staples (or hell, even new cards that would be playable in Vintage)- because no one seems to like Pro Player cards, why not do Vintage staples that are equally not Magic cards just as Pro Player cards are not Magic cards- something like Balance with a different back and different layout or something, so new players could see the powerful old cards and play with them in casual decks but not in tournaments. It's not like it would be at the cost of anything because obviously no one wants a Pro Player card, and it would definitely pique interest in Vintage. Maybe they could even make them legal for just Vintage.

No. Why?

A)   This is reprinting power.
B)   If not, it is printing proxies, something WotC does not go for
C)   This still screws up casual.

Now that's the spirit. How great would it be for Vintage to not just get the sloppy seconds out of each set, and instead, gain 100-150 new cards to drool over, all designed for US? I think that would be awesome.

It would suck. Why? Because it defeats the entire premise of Vintage, which is you take from every set. 100-150 cards means 100-150 cards from elsewhere which go away and are unplayable now. No set in the entire history of Magic has contributed anywhere near that number of cards to Vintage; the highest number is Alpha, and even that is less than half that.

[Imzakhor]

Nothing you do short of reprinting power will reduce the barrier to entry to Vintage; the moxen, Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk are that strong. WotC is not going to do that, period.

I could come up with 10 cards, in about 10 seconds, that would reduce the utility of the cards you mentioned to virtually nothing, and make their worth less than the paper they are printed on. I'm sure you could too. If they don't have to worry about breaking T2, limited, extended, etc., they could print cards that are that powerful. To do so in a meaningful way, though, would require time, effort, and balancing. But it *can* be done.

It would suck. Why? Because it defeats the entire premise of Vintage, which is you take from every set. 100-150 cards means 100-150 cards from elsewhere which go away and are unplayable now. No set in the entire history of Magic has contributed anywhere near that number of cards to Vintage; the highest number is Alpha, and even that is less than half that.

The premise of Vintage is you can use virtually any card printed, sans ante/dex cards. How does an Eternal-only set defeat that? IT DOESN'T. I totally fail to see how having MORE options would actually create LESS enjoyment... Especially for the players who can't enter T1, without a lower cost of entry.

[zeus-online]

Nothing you do short of reprinting power will reduce the barrier to entry to Vintage; the moxen, Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk are that strong. WotC is not going to do that, period.

I could come up with 10 cards, in about 10 seconds, that would reduce the utility of the cards you mentioned to virtually nothing, and make their worth less than the paper they are printed on. I'm sure you could too. If they don't have to worry about breaking T2, limited, extended, etc., they could print cards that are that powerful. To do so in a meaningful way, though, would require time, effort, and balancing. But it *can* be done.

Yeah that's easy:
Super mox pearl - 0
Artifact
Tap: Add WW to your mana pool

Super black lotus - 0
Artifact
Tap, sac: Add 4 mana of any one color to your mana pool.

Super ancestral recall - U
Instant
Draw four cards

Super Time walk - U
Sorcery
Take an extra turn after this one.

....But honestly....If they're just print more answers it won't help...the power cards are infinitely better then just about any answer they could possibly think of.

Threats > Answers, period.

/Zeus

[jro]

One of the problems with coming up with inventive new cards is the absurd prospect of making them suitable for print in a limited environment, while sneaking in abilities that have utility to us, the Eternal lovers. This, like most things, got me thinking.

It's not absurd.  It's a challenge.  Design is all about expressing creativity within certain constraints.  One of the hardest constraints in making Magic cards is trying to get them to balance across all formats.  Throwing away that element removes a large part of what Magic design is about.  So I think this is a bad idea for all the reasons listed by other people, and also because it is bad for designers.

You say "This would allow their designers the freedom to unleash their most powerful ideas."  If you mean "powerful" in the sense of a powerful Magic card, then designing something like that is trivial.  If you mean a powerful design idea, then that has very little to do with the actual power level of the card.  When you suggest that cards be made "on the old power scale: you know R for 3 damage, U for 3 cards, what have you" I think you must be joking, because the power level of those two cards is further apart than the distance between Lightning Bolt and current cards (Strafe, Lava Spike).

[brianpk80]

Imzakhor,

Your idea isn't nearly as bad as some responses are making it out to be.  At its most base level, the idea that Wizards could substitute an Unglued/Unhinged release with a set designed to rejuvenate Vintage isn't a bad starting idea.   Since Unhinged and Unglued aren't tournament legal to begin with, Standard players wouldn't have reason to complain.  A set like this wouldn't necessarily work so much as a way to relive the past or go buckwild with design constraints, but some way to bridge the huge popularity gap between T2 and T1.  Since the feeling that "my Magic investment is worthless" most heavily bears on people when Extended rotates, it should probably be timed to coincide with that, reminding players that there is life after T2/Ext.  That security would promote purchasing of new sets by eliminating the concern that everything becomes worthless in 2 years, and even more so after an Extended rotation.

Another concern is that many former MtG players veer towards Vintage for several reasons: low learning curve (once you know Vintage, you still know most of what you need to know years later), nostalgia, a sense that the most collectible rarities have a practical application, etc.  Despite the problem of limited Loti, Moxen, etc. continued neglect of the Vintage market (or more importantly) the  potential Vintage market isn't a good longterm strategy.  Wizards benefits in no way if Vintage fails and a move like this may help.

Your idea is radical but most good ideas begin in ways that flout convention.  Implmentation is the hard part.  I'm glad you offered the idea here and continued to defend it. 

-BPK

[Apollyon]

There's a large population that plays casual. In fact, the casual players massively outnumber tournament players by a good amount, according to WotC estimates.

When the stuff from Ext rotates out, it will either get played in casual, Vintage, or Legacy. Currently, Wizards is pushing Legacy more than they are pushing Vintage.

[Imzakhor]

Imzakhor,

Your idea isn't nearly as bad as some responses are making it out to be.  At its most base level, the idea that Wizards could substitute an Unglued/Unhinged release with a set designed to rejuvenate Vintage isn't a bad starting idea.

Perfect. That is the perfect way to release the Eternal Only set, and as you mentioned, the perfect timing would be at the same time Extended does their sit-and-sp.... I mean, rotating.

Since the feeling that "my Magic investment is worthless" most heavily bears on people when Extended rotates, it should probably be timed to coincide with that, reminding players that there is life after T2/Ext.  That security would promote purchasing of new sets by eliminating the concern that everything becomes worthless in 2 years, and even more so after an Extended rotation.

A great point I had not considered, probably since I do not play T2 at all, so it never occurs to me that my set might become 'worthless'. What a huge 'metareason' for T2 players to buy the set.

Frankly, I think this set would be HUGE among casual fans. A whole new scale of power for them to tool with, metagame be damned. Every card, in every pack, would be, "OMG Chuck, check this thing out. omgomgomg....." I remember that, and it was exhilarating.

[Apollyon]

It's quite possible to get a good feeling about cards in a set without them being poorly-designed cards, especially if you are a Johnny.

For example, the Plagiarize that costs U with Split Second is retarded.

2UU: Both players shuffle their hands and graveyards into their library. Draw 14 cards.

2UR: Both players discard their hands. Draw 14 cards.

What part of any of those cards is remotely close to fair? If you want to play with yourself, don't go to play Magic to do so.