U/W Landstill in 07

[moses04]

Ok so I have been playing this deck for about a and a half I make top 8 with it consistanly with it at my local tournaments as well as the power tournaments that I attend. I guess that every time I see a a list for U/W combo it is now where near mine.  So I wanted to post my list and get some critism on it.

The deck itself has its roots from landstill (which is insanley obvious) and WU tang fish(which isnt so obvious)...

OK so the list



MAINDECK:60
Mana Base:26
4xTundra
2xFlooded Strand
2xPolluted Delta
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Faerie Conclave
4x Wasteland
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Strip Mine
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
2x Island
1x Plains

Draw:9
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
1x Ancestral Recall

combo/Removal:20
4x Force of Will
3x Prohibit
3x Mana Leak
2x Stifle
4x Swords to Plowshare
2x Nev's Disk
1x Balance
1x Crucible of Worlds

Wins:5
1x Decree of Justice
4x Meddling Mage

The Side Board is ever changing as the meta does but the side board Currently it looks like this

2x Claws of Gix
3x Null Rod
2x Disenchant
2x Energy Flux
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Propaganda
1x Stifle

The deck itself was made to handle combo before the side board was factored in...

When I first made the deck I just got done playing WU tang fish in a tournament and it had something that I really wanted in landstill and that was Meddling Mage so I adjusted the list to make it fit.

Card Chioces:
Mana Base
Tundra- self explained
Flooded Strand- self explained
Polluted Delta- self explained

 Mishra's Factory- this gets under standstill and gets beat with an oath out on the table... even though now it seems that ICBM oath is starting to run them in the main and sideboard

 Faerie Conclave- this is what usually wins the war over the factories because this thing has flying it can beat and it taps for blue mana... although the card is rather slow I still feel it to be good

 Wasteland: I think or feel that I have more of an advantage right more then ever with most deck going to 2 wastelands instead of 4 this means I can take out their mana base while they are trying to stop my beaters

 Library of Alexandria: draws cards under standstill

 Strip Mine:Self Explained
 Mox Sapphire:Self Explained
 Black Lotus: Self Explained
 Lotus Petal- this is in place of pearl merely because of the fact that I can threat with double blue on turn 1 more often with this
 Island: Self Explained
 Plains: Self Explained

Draw:
Brainstorm: Meandeck card and meandeck with fetches

Standstill: This adds a whole other aspect to the game one that I feel has been forgotten and usually comes as a surprise to most people who don't now me

Ancestral Recall: Self Explained

combo/Removal
Force of Will:Self Explained

Prohibit: There are only 3 in the deck merely because it is rather difficult or keep double blue on the board for very long

Mana Leak: There are only three because I really dont feel that it is that strong of a card toward the later game and I often find it to be useless late game.  Early game this card is a house for me

Stifle- This is what really give me an advantage in the combo match game one.. I am either able to stifle their first fetch or I am able to stifle the storm count which can huge

Swords to Plowshare- this is to help deal with the ever growing population of fish as well as welder, most oath creatures and of DSC

 Nev's Disk- this really with oath games 2 and 3 because of Simic being untargetable thus disk helps deal with them

 Balance- again this help with oath games 2 and 3

 Crucible of Worlds- this card is just good even as a singeton

Decree of Justice- this is a huge bomb under the standstill

Meddling Mage- Self Explained

There is another card that will find its way into the deck from time to time and thats Morphling... I just love the card and it often comes to as a surprise and shock to most oppenents

There you have it like I said critism is much welcome

[Shock Wave]

I like the direction this deck is going in, but I feel it does have some weak spots.

a) Lotus Petal - This is extremely weak in this deck. You're far better off with another land, especially since you're not running Mana Drain.
b) Nevinyrall's Disk - I don't see how this works without Mana Drain. You say that you need this for Oath, but you run 4 Mages, 4 STP, and Balance? Cut the Disk. Those are 2 very valuable slots you could use for other purposes.
c) Time Walk - I'm assuming this was an accidental omission from your post?
d) Claws of Gix - I'm sure you have better things to run in the SB. I really lke your SB otherwise, but I think these 2 cards are extremely narrow and really don't offer anything to a matchup which should certainly be favourable for you.

Otherwise, that's the best Landstill list I've seen in a while.

[moses04]

Ok Drain is in the deck but it wont let me put it down it keeps saying Prohibit so yeah.... Thus Petal and disk does become relivant.

Nev's Disk is a reset button for me when I let things get too out of hand...the deck can lose to random aggro this was my answer to it...

Time Walk was not omitted from the list I have played with it before and I really dont find it be that strong in this deck since you can pretty much out control your opponent.

Claws of Gix- I started using this again because of Simic Sky Swaller. It can be really hard to deal with if it hits the board thus I started using Claws of Gix to help deal with post board

[Shock Wave]

Ok Drain is in the deck but it wont let me put it down it keeps saying Prohibit so yeah.... Thus Petal and disk does become relivant.

Nev's Disk is a reset button for me when I let things get too out of hand...the deck can lose to random aggro this was my answer to it...

Time Walk was not omitted from the list I have played with it before and I really dont find it be that strong in this deck since you can pretty much out control your opponent.

Claws of Gix- I started using this again because of Simic Sky Swaller. It can be really hard to deal with if it hits the board thus I started using Claws of Gix to help deal with post board

Yeah I noticed that in my post too. Can an administrator please address this problem?

In regards to Time Walk, it is absolutely insanity to omit this from the deck. Please play with it. Running Time Walk doesn't have anything to do with being able to "out control" your opponent.

This deck theoretically can lose to aggro, but you already have lots of tools against it (4 plows, Balance, Crucible, DoJ, blockers...) . The question you need to consider is whether using 2 slots to address a matchup that you're less likely to lose against is worth it.

In regards to running Petal, it still isn't good enough to run, even if you're running MDrain. Having turn 1 counter potential is the only real use for the card, because the other plays it enables are rather weak (1st turn SS via Petal is not a very strong play). In most cases, Petal will turn an opening hand that is very strong into a lesser hand   because it is an exhaustable resource (as opposed to a land). Back in the days when TnT and Stax were very strong and very prevalent, Petal was very important because getting Disk onto the table was a priority. Since then, Disk has become significantly weaker, and Lotus Petal's stock value has also gone down significantly.

With regards to Claws of Gix, if Oath is that prevalent in your meta and you feel you need it, then go for it. However, in a varied meta, it is an extremely narrow choice. Also, considering that you already running Disenchant in the sideboard, it seems like overkill. You have permission and Mages to fight Oath, and nobody plays SSS pre-board, so your STPs should be golden in G1.

[InfinityCircuit]

Regarding the weird word shifts:

It's an April 1 Joke:

April Fo0l = meandeck

Mana Dra1n = Prohibit

There are probably more.

As far as the decklist goes, I definetly agree that you need to include Time Walk.  I think that you also need more Nevinyral's Disk - it was the backbone of U/R Landstill's board control suite and I think it should be here too especially with its uses against artifacts, EtW tokens (although it is slow - maybe Powder Keg is better)

[ketchupgun]

If you remove the two disks..then you don't really need the Mana Drains right?
Chain of Vapour has always been a fav of mine in Landstill...what about running EE (despite there is limited colour counters here -- 0,1,2 counters are still nailing ALOT of things in vintage..and this gets around the ETW...just as I wouldn't hesitate to run Echoing Truth). In place of the Drains, what about Daze/Tef'sResponse?

Also...it occurred to me that Ninja of Deep Hours would get around your own standstill, and would kick some ass as an online draw engine by turn 2, only to replay a manland in its exhange, non? (maybe swap bstorms and DoJ in there somehow?

(w/ changes to the above list)

4xTundra
2xFlooded Strand
2xPolluted Delta
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Faerie Conclave
4x Wasteland
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Strip Mine
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Pearl
2x Island
1x Plains

4x Meddling Mage
4x Ninja

4x Standstill
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Timewalk

4x Force of Will
2x Daze
2x Mana Leak
2x Stifle
3x Swords to Plowshare
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Balance
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x EE
1x Echoing Truth
1x Misdirection ??

What do you guys think of that?
I think Nullrod and/or CotV need a place here as well (MD/SB)

Also, why do people shy away from Cloud of Faeries? Faeries, Faeries, Standstill was always a favourite play of mine in UR Fish back way when.

Sincerely,
Noobie McNoobiePants 

[madmanmike25]

In regards to running Petal, it still isn't good enough to run, even if you're running MDrain. Having turn 1 counter potential is the only real use for the card, because the other plays it enables are rather weak (1st turn SS via Petal is not a very strong play).

I disagree.  I think a first turn Standstill is fairly nice.  Unless you are playing a mirror match (what are the odds of that?) YOU will be drawing 3 cards.  It's highly likely that with those 3 cards and your next draw that you will see a land to offset the loss of Petal.  Also, what is wrong with a first turn Meddling Mage?? Being able to cast Mana Leak/Drain first turn with more consistency is also another reason to keep Petal in imo.

He is correct.  You should run Time Walk.

I think Cloud of Faeries were best when you cast Curiosity on them.  Otherwise it's just a free 1/1.  Scary.

I also agree with a lone Echoing Truth to deal with EtW among other things.

Here is something to note:  Not all people add Brainstorm in decks like this(or Fish).  Some prefer actual card advantage in decks where you really don't find anything too powerful.  It's never bad, but it's usually the first card to get pitched to FoW.  Ninja is a valid option to test out.

Why not use Mystical Tutor to find a STP/Recall/Balance/Decree/Time Walk?

**EDIT  Wow, so the Vintage Open forum and Vintage improvement forums are classified as 'Child Boards'??????  Makes me want to be promoted even less now...

[nataz]

Oh man, how amazing would it be to have a maindeck dedicated to beating control/control-combo an Oath SB against some of the random aggro and aggro-control fishy decks!

A simple addition of 4 Oath, 2 Angels, 1 Blessing, 1 LFTL, and like 1 Trop would do it. LFTL would be great with manlands also.

[Shock Wave]

I disagree.  I think a first turn Standstill is fairly nice.  Unless you are playing a mirror match (what are the odds of that?) YOU will be drawing 3 cards.  It's highly likely that with those 3 cards and your next draw that you will see a land to offset the loss of Petal.  Also, what is wrong with a first turn Meddling Mage?? Being able to cast Mana Leak/Drain first turn with more consistency is also another reason to keep Petal in imo.

Well, if a turn 1 Standstill is an important play with this deck, then why not run a full compliment of power? That way, you greatly increase your chances of having first turn leak or Standstill potential. What has to be considered is whether the possibility of making those plays is worth the burden of running Petal (or moxen) as a mana source. On any turn except turn 1, Lotus Petal is almost always inferior to a land drop in this deck.

Here is something to note:  Not all people add Brainstorm in decks like this(or Fish).  Some prefer actual card advantage in decks where you really don't find anything too powerful.  It's never bad, but it's usually the first card to get pitched to FoW.  Ninja is a valid option to test out.

Brainstorm is generally awful in redundant versions of Landstill, but this version seems a little particular so it might work. I've also found Ninja to be pretty awful, and I can't imagine it being any better in this deck, even with the addition of Mage (which you often won't want to Ninja-out anyways).

Why not use Mystical Tutor to find a STP/Recall/Balance/Decree/Time Walk?

Mystical isn't so hot in this deck because it has no real bombs to find. This deck is always fighting to last until the mid-late game, and burning up resources to find stuff often hurts. Mystical for anything other than AR is pretty bad, and even getting AR isn't such a great play. It's akin to the Lotus Petal => Standstill play.

[moses04]

You really cant run a full set of power because of the deck's insane need for colored mana sources so having a full set of power really isnt optimal.  Granted there are lots of colorless mana sources like wasteland and Factory, but because you can sneak them under standstill I think that it makes them better then off color mox.

I have tried actually playing pearl in place of the Lotus Petal and I didnt like it, you cant really threat with the first turn standstill or even better you cant threat with first turn mana drain as well either.

[Shock Wave]

You really cant run a full set of power because of the deck's insane need for colored mana sources so having a full set of power really isnt optimal.  Granted there are lots of colorless mana sources like wasteland and Factory, but because you can sneak them under standstill I think that it makes them better then off color mox.

I have tried actually playing pearl in place of the Lotus Petal and I didnt like it, you cant really threat with the first turn standstill or even better you cant threat with first turn mana drain as well either.

I wasn't advocating running a full set of power, I'm well aware that it is not a good idea. My point was that if you're so convinced that a turn 1 Standstill is an important play, then you might as well run full power, seeing as you at least get to keep your Mox if you use it to power out a first turn Standstill.

Yeah, once in a blue you get the potential to have Mana Drain online on the first turn. How often, out of those few times it actually happens, is the play relevant? How often are you wishing your Petal was a land instead? I would guess more often than not, because on any turn other than the first, a land is going be better than Lotus Petal. If it's working out for you, then great. I'm just telling you because I've played Landstill more than anyone else on the planet, with and without Lotus Petal, and I feel that it's not a good idea. I have given you the reasons why, but again, stick to your guns if you think I'm wrong.

[Yare]

I wanted to chime in about Cloud of Faeries.  They're cool and all to get in play before Standstill, but they're bad for a couple of reasons.  First, they do not represent any kind of clock on your opponent.  Getting them in play early doesn't really do anything.  I guess if you get three, then maybe we could talk, but one just doesn't do that much.  Kind of along that same point, Faeries in and of themselves are just not worth the one card it costs to play them.  While landstill is about card quantity rather than quality, you still want some minimum threshold of good-ness, and I think Faeries falls below that threashold.  The absence of curiosity hurts too, although presumably that would be coming down after the first Standstill anyway.

[ketchupgun]

. I'm just telling you because I've played Landstill more than anyone else on the planet

I just wanted to say that is such an awesome claim. Well done. (ShockWave, it's been a pleasure everytime I've paired up against you at a tourney, and congrats on that Beta Recall).

In regards to Ninja. That's too bad it's tested poorly. I would think with 6 manlands it would be a cinch to work in (URBana relys on 4 gorillas for the earliest ninja).

How important is the NevDisk/ManaDrain in the present meta? With bounce and EE, i'd think board control was covered

[CranialX]

This is my version of landstill.
This landstill built put me in 3rd place in as local annual championship.

1x Darksteel Collosus      
2x Exalted Angel               

2x Crucible of Worlds      
2x Nevirrynals Disk      

2x Sword to Plowshares      
2x Echoing Truth

4x Brainstorm         
4x Standstill         

4x Force of  Will         
4x Mana Drain         
2x Stifle                  

1x Timewalk         
1x Tinker            

1x Ancestral Recall      
1x Mystical Tutor         

1x Black Lotus         
1x Lotus Petal         
1x Mox Diamond         
1x Mox Sapphire         
1x Mox Pearl         

4x Mishra’s Factory      
2x Flooded Strands      
3x Polluted Delta         
2x Faerie Conclave               
4x Tundra            
3x Wasteland          
1x Stripmine         
3x Island            

Sideboard: not permanent depend on the meta

2x Trickbind
3x Extract
2x Tormods Crypt
2x Pithing Needle
1x Balance
2x Wrath of God
3x Energy Flux

Now for the Explanation

Why? Tinker, Darksteel Colossus.

An early Tinker, Darksteel Colossus. That resolve will pretty much win your game.
It will put the pressure to your opponent to win for the next 2 or 3 turn or Make a solution.
If its in your opening hand you could mulligan.
If you get to draw it you have brainstorm and fetch land to shuffle it. So use them wisely.

Now Exalted Angel

This is where you put your drain mana. If you dont have an COW or Nevs in Hand.
If you have floating 3 you can morph it.
If you have 4 from drain mana you just have to add 2 white mana and you have angel.
Plus a when she damage you gain 4  life.
Which is crazy against aggro and combo.
They have to add a lot of spell count.

Sword to plowshare
For those critters, Welders, Meddling mage, DSC, etc...

Echoing Truth
Empty the warren if stifle didnt came by to help or for some irritating permanent.

Mox Diamond

Its like Mox Sapphire, 1st turn Land Drop, Mox Diamond discard a land.
You have a mana drain on line.

Lotus Petal
Same as mox diamond.

The sideboard.

Trickbind
Uncounterable stifle works best agains combo. as long as they duress you first.

Pithing Needle
For those welder, jitte, bomberman, pyrite spellbomb, mostly for solution basis.

Tormods Crypt
Graveyard recurring, especially life from the loam

Balance and Wrath of God
Creature Control

Energy Flux
Well for those artifact that makes your world smaller.

Extract
Combo and Oath. Remove there winning condition.
It doesnt necessary make you win but it buys you time.
Plus a free look in the opponents deck.

Notes
I didnt put library of alexandria. Most of the time i get to draw colorless mana or tap mana.
That rendered my mana drain useless.
So i added a color mana or fetch land.

Most of the time in my opinion you'll have a difficult time with those moxes of your opponent.
Im suggesting a cotv in the main or sides, and i dont know how many you should put.
or what to remove.

Now all i wrote here are just my opinion.
I post them for reference, if you want to copy the deck is fine by me.
I just hope that i help some one with the list.
Its not perfect i know but its a good start.

[freakish777]

I personally feel like Mox Diamond, Mox Sapphire and Lotus are the 3 essential pieces of artifact mana for any U/x Landstill deck.  Any none-blue Mox becomes far worse since you really really want to have Drain online immediately, and you're running 20ish or more lands to begin with.  It's not like you're not going to get that land back at some point if you want with Crucible anyways.

Enlightened Tutor isn't competely awful here, it nabs Crucible, Disk, Lotus (if you need mana), and Standstill itself.  Bonus points for shuffling away crap with BStorm as always.  It is however the 59th, or 60th card.

I hate Faerie Conclave.  It's horrible.  It comes in tapped?  It effectively costs 1UU a turn for 2 damage?  Pass.  Seriously, don't play this card.  This is the most tempo oriented format.

I'm a little surprised that FoF is missing from these lists.

[Shock Wave]

I personally feel like Mox Diamond, Mox Sapphire and Lotus are the 3 essential pieces of artifact mana for any U/x Landstill deck.  Any none-blue Mox becomes far worse since you really really want to have Drain online immediately, and you're running 20ish or more lands to begin with.  It's not like you're not going to get that land back at some point if you want with Crucible anyways.

Mox Diamond is actually rather awful in Landstill. You're investing 2 cards into a mana source that is only exceptionally beneficial to you on Turn 1. In this regard, it is no different than Lotus Petal. Contrary to what a lot of people think, Landstill doesn't care whether it has Mana Drain online on Turn 1 or 2. It only cares about having answers. This isn't a deck which is going to explode after draining a spell and all of a sudden just win the game, which makes Mana Drain far less important in this archetype than any other.

Crucible of Worlds is another misunderstood card in this deck. The plan with Landstill is not to Drain into this thing and then win, because Crucible by itself is simply not good enough to do this. Many of the decks in this format don't care about Crucible because they can win the game so quickly, or resolve a threat that invalidates pressure on the mana base. CoW is supposed to be the nail in the coffin in this deck. It is a card you almost always want to see in the mid-late game. Since Landstill generally loses in the first 5 turns, the fact that you can get a land back in the late game isn't relevant. If you make it to the late game, you have a great chance of winning. Losing resources in the early game (to a Mox Diamond or Lotus Petal), however, can easily translate into a loss.

Enlightened Tutor isn't competely awful here, it nabs Crucible, Disk, Lotus (if you need mana), and Standstill itself.  Bonus points for shuffling away crap with BStorm as always.  It is however the 59th, or 60th card.

I think ET is decent in U/W Landstill. I'm not 100% sure if it is worth a slot. What I do feel strongly about though is U/W being almost strictly inferior to U/R Landstill.

I hate Faerie Conclave.  It's horrible.  It comes in tapped?  It effectively costs 1UU a turn for 2 damage?  Pass.  Seriously, don't play this card.  This is the most tempo oriented format.

Faerie Conclave is terrible, but it is a necessary evil in most Landstill builds. The reason for this is because of the nature of Landstill: it is a reactive, pure control archetype (the last of its breed). As such, it needs every nonland slot in the deck to be either an answer or a form of disruption. Dedicating slots to win conditions (DoJ, DSC, etc) is going to lose you more games than you will win. Now, since your maindeck should be almost entirely dedicated to disrupting your opponent, your mana base has to be capable of killing with at least mild pressure.

I'm a little surprised that FoF is missing from these lists.

In the Landstill builds I've tested over the years, FoF has always been awful. I'm not exactly sure why, but it's probably because Landstill is never trying to dig into that 1 broken spell or combination of cards to win the game. Perhaps it might work in the build presented in this thread.

[ErkBek]

What would you guys think of running the new FS card Western Tolaria over Conclave? For reference

Western Tolaria
Land
Transmute 1UU
Western Tolaria comes into play tapped
 : Add  to your mana pool

If you were to run 2 or 3 of these, I'd try 1 Engineered Explosives as a utility target to transmute into (I'd probably cut 1 Disk or STP for this). So you'd be able to transmute into any of the following:

Strip Mine
Wasteland
Mishra's Factory
Explosives

Anyone think this card would be good in Landstill?

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

@Western Tolaria: Landstill was also the first deck I had to think of for this. It's the only deck that runs heavy blue and Crucible, so that tutoring Strip Mine is actually meaningfull, and Extra-factories once you've developped your mana seem instinctively better for me than Conclave-beatdown. That you can use your tutor under Standstill seems just cool.

I think ET is decent in U/W Landstill. I'm not 100% sure if it is worth a slot. What I do feel strongly about though is U/W being almost strictly inferior to U/R Landstill.

I'm honestly curious here, not trying to contradict you (I have like 0 experience still worth anything playing LandStill, mind you), what is it that makes red so much better than white? Are Fire/Ice and SB REBs so much better than Decree and Stp? The only time in recent years I touched Standstill-based decks was for Legacy-testing, and there Decree really rocked my boat... (again, completely different format, so no necessary bearing on T1. Heck I don't even have any idea what a good T1 UR Landstill list would look like today).

[moses04]

I think ET is decent in U/W Landstill. I'm not 100% sure if it is worth a slot. What I do feel strongly about though is U/W being almost strictly inferior to U/R Landstill.

This isn't exactly true, the u/r version has the advantage over u/w in the one on one match up because it can deal damage to the head.  Other then that I would much rather come to a T1 tournament with U/W then U/R because U/W has superior removal spells and better answers then the U/R version imho, and yea Decree is a pretty big bomb under standstill

[Shock Wave]

@Western Tolaria: Landstill was also the first deck I had to think of for this. It's the only deck that runs heavy blue and Crucible, so that tutoring Strip Mine is actually meaningfull, and Extra-factories once you've developped your mana seem instinctively better for me than Conclave-beatdown. That you can use your tutor under Standstill seems just cool.

My guess tells me that this new land will not be as good as Conclave, but I could be wrong. The reason is because if you draw this card instead of Conclave in your first hand, you will almost certainly have to play it as your blue source. If you do, then it is just worse than Conclave. Also, against any deck running Wasteland, that leaves you only 4 actual manlands to put pressure with, which is pretty bad, because it slows your clock down significantly. I think this card deserves testing, I just don't think it will make the cut.

I'm honestly curious here, not trying to contradict you (I have like 0 experience still worth anything playing LandStill, mind you), what is it that makes red so much better than white? Are Fire/Ice and SB REBs so much better than Decree and Stp? The only time in recent years I touched Standstill-based decks was for Legacy-testing, and there Decree really rocked my boat... (again, completely different format, so no necessary bearing on T1. Heck I don't even have any idea what a good T1 UR Landstill list would look like today).

Yes, you hit the nail on the head. REB and Fire/Ice are amazing in Type 1, and DoJ and STP are awful. Yes, I said it, STP is awful. Why? Well, there's nothing to remove! The best decks in the format all laugh at STP, and against everything else, Fire/Ice is exclusively better (especially since it is blue so it is never dead). In Legacy, I find U/W exclusively better than U/R because there is far more aggro in the format.

This isn't exactly true, the u/r version has the advantage over u/w in the one on one match up because it can deal damage to the head.  Other then that I would much rather come to a T1 tournament with U/W then U/R because U/W has superior removal spells and better answers then the U/R version imho, and yea Decree is a pretty big bomb under standstill

Actually, in T1, U/W has inferior removal spells because they are white and white cards are awful in this format. They are narrow, and they do not pitch to Force or Misdirection. I'd like to see how many games you lose to Gifts, Long, or Slaver on account of just having useless cards in your hand. Now, I don't know what your metagame consists of, but unless it is some random aggro metagame, U/W will have a much harder time competing than U/R.

I'd like to reiterate how important REB is in this format. This card just rapes blue based decks, and is one of the few reasons Landstill has some game against any of the major drain based archetypes (Gifts, Slaver, Bomberman, etc).

[DuKeLiO]

Here in Spain two players have had success with two almost mono-blue Landstills decks, one plays only a green card, Crop Rotation; and the other only played a White Card: Balance. The green list also had a transformational side with Oath of Druids. The list are (white version in perentesis):

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Spell Snare
3 Misdirection
3 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Chain of Vapour(-1/+1 Echoing Truth)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Crop Rotation (Balance)
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Academy Ruins
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Tropical Island (Tundra)
4 Fetchs
5 Island

I know they are so slow but are very strong. The four Spell Snare are a nice substitute for REBs versus Gifts or similar decks. Personally I like the green list changing the Mystical Tutor (you only can search for Ancestral) for the 4th Stifle. I also dislike the Oath transformational sideboard and I have searched for another with more defensive utilitys and maybe four Tempting Wurm.

[Sean Ryan]

Shockwave,

Your comments on the distinctions b/t. U/w & U/r Landstill are appreciated.  May I ask how you see the trade offs between what red has to offer in relation to black?  I have been testing a black version latley with Duress and the tutors which suffers in against Fish game 1 but seems to be stronger against everything else.  All though i could see how U/b might easily turn into Neo Tog/Drain TPS.  I have a couple of other issues to raise:

1) Null Rod - I question the neccessity of Nev. Disk in the modern meta.  Once the Disk is removed one is open to the possibility of Null Rod, which combined with the rest of your mana (Strip/Waste, Stiffle, Crucible) denial becomes quite strong.  This moves the deck in what feels like a much more streamlined direction that has less dead cards on the majority of the matchups. 

2) Mana Drain? - It feels less and less neccasssary (especially if you are running REBS).  What do you Drain into really?  I propse testing a combinations less than 4 all the way down to zero with Mana Leak as a possible replacement/supplement.

3) Win condition - I have never liked the Conclaves myself and have since replaced them with Tinker/DSC.  the question is whether the oppurtunity cost is to high, ie; to cumbersome? vs the benifits of being able to end the game in two turns, or randomly win off T1 Tinker-DSC FoW backup.

4)  Has anyone goven serious consideration or testing to the benifits of a transformational Oath SB?  This would defintly allevuate the difficulties a U/b build  faces against Fish.

Anyway, I think these questions open up some interesting directions that Landstill could go in the current meta as almost a hybrid of Fish and classic control.

Your thoughts?

Sean     

[Shock Wave]

May I ask how you see the trade offs between what red has to offer in relation to black? I have been testing a black version latley with Duress and the tutors which suffers in against Fish game 1 but seems to be stronger against everything else.  All though i could see how U/b might easily turn into Neo Tog/Drain TPS.

I've done quite a bit of testing with a black splash and I found that it doesn't improve any matchups while significantly worsening the matchups against Stax and any aggro decks. Tutors and Yawgmoth's will are horrible in this deck, so all you're really getting is Duress, which I don't think improves enough matchups to make it worth running. Some local people have tried runnnig Extirpate, which I think is horrible in this deck, and actually rather horrible in general.

2) Mana Drain? - It feels less and less neccasssary (especially if you are running REBS).  What do you Drain into really?  I propse testing a combinations less than 4 all the way down to zero with Mana Leak as a possible replacement/supplement.

Mana Drain is actually terrible in this deck, but it is a necessary evil, much like Faerie Conclave. You'll often burn after draining a spell, but sometimes you will get a nice mana boost that can potentially win you the game. It has happened to me before on a few occassions, and I can count the number of times I've died from mana burn on one hand. You really can't cut this card, even though it isn't that great, especially for something which is downright terrible in comparison (Mana Leak).

3) Win condition - I have never liked the Conclaves myself and have since replaced them with Tinker/DSC.  the question is whether the oppurtunity cost is to high, ie; to cumbersome? vs the benifits of being able to end the game in two turns, or randomly win off T1 Tinker-DSC FoW backup.

Brainstorm is awful in Landstill, which makes this combination even worse. I will never run these cards in this deck. Again, Landstill is pure control. The win conditions are in the mana base and devoting maindeck slots to them is a horrible waste. If you can't get used to winning slowly with this deck, you're playing the wrong archetype.

4)  Has anyone goven serious consideration or testing to the benifits of a transformational Oath SB?  This would defintly allevuate the difficulties a U/b build  faces against Fish.

I'm not a fan of green in Landstill at all. I think if you're expecting an aggro field, you're just better off running a different deck, instead of practically conceding Game 1 and then relying on an Oath sideboard that might not be good enoguh to get you wins in G2 and G3.

[CranialX]

In my opinion...

Mana Drain is essential in landstill.
It helps speed up or cast other stuff without tapping your mana.
That makes another mana drain cast-able.
If you have to counter something really important just sink the mana in mishra's factory.
Well its a waste but you dont have a choice.

Tinker Colossus
This guy save my butt so many times that if i'm going to play my landstill again.
Ill recruit him again.
Tinker Colossus helps my match up against. red burn sligh deck, Black Sue or Necro what ever variance, against combo and fish.

But anyway its still up to the player of the deck what he wants to put inside his deck.
Its still his skill how he pilot the deck. How he turn the situation in his favor.
I post my decklist just to help others in building there deck.

If tinker colossus or faerie conclave or other stuff in the deck doesnt work then dont put it in.
My landstill deck prove it self to me that i built it the right way the way i want it to play.

Ill just add this there are other potential card that i m eyeing at...
Fact or Fiction
Decree of Justice
West Tolaria
Academy Ruins

If ever i play my landstill again i might put this card in the deck...
Thanks for your opinion and constructive criticism.

[mgouthro]

2) Mana Drain? - It feels less and less neccasssary (especially if you are running REBS).  What do you Drain into really?  I propse testing a combinations less than 4 all the way down to zero with Mana Leak as a possible replacement/supplement.

Mana Drain is actually terrible in this deck, but it is a necessary evil, much like Faerie Conclave. You'll often burn after draining a spell, but sometimes you will get a nice mana boost that can potentially win you the game. It has happened to me before on a few occassions, and I can count the number of times I've died from mana burn on one hand. You really can't cut this card, even though it isn't that great, especially for something which is downright terrible in comparison (Mana Leak).

Hmm...so Mana Drain is terrible in the deck, yet a necessary evil. I'm going to make the assumption that it's a necessary evil due to the fact that it's a hard counter. Also, you state how the deck wins slowly. How many times would you say that resolving a Mana Drain gives a boost to your game rather than burning for mana? It doesn't seem like it really does much for the deck as there's not exactly much explosiveness to the deck. If that's the case, Mana Drain is essentially functioning as Counterspell most of the time.  Rather than supplement/replace with Mana Leak, maybe Counterspell should be shown a bit of love here instead? I'm just saying that each life point can make a difference...

[Sean Ryan]

What about this configuration for U/r Landstill:

4 FoW
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
3 Stiffle
4 Fire/Ice
3 Null Rod
0-2 Echoing Truth/Repeal

4 Standstill
2 Recall/Walk
0-2 Cruciible of Worlds
0-2 Gorilla shaman

6 Lotus/Moxen
4 Factory
2 Conclave
1 LOA
4 Strip/Waste
4 Volcanic ISland
4 Delta
5 Islands

SB

4 CotV
5 REB/Pyroblast
3 Energy Flux
3 Tormod's Crypt

Its only a start, so any thoughts/critiques would be appreciated.

Thanks
Sean

[ketchupgun]

4 FoW
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
3 Stiffle
4 Fire/Ice
3 Null Rod
0-2 Echoing Truth/Repeal

4 Standstill
2 Recall/Walk
0-2 Cruciible of Worlds
0-2 Gorilla shaman

6 Lotus/Moxen
4 Factory
2 Conclave
1 LOA
4 Strip/Waste
4 Volcanic ISland
4 Delta
5 Islands

SB

4 CotV
5 REB/Pyroblast
3 Energy Flux
3 Tormod's Crypt

In my expereince with Landstill (Shockwave is so right when he stated Ninja of the Deep is awful). UR is a hit. in the obove list, What about Chain of Vapour? It's completely asymetrical in Landstill, and when mixed with Echoing Truth gives us alot of anyswers (IE: bouncing the ever painful CoTV@2)

Last I played this deck, the Mana Drains were there to get the Disks out...but if the current meta doesn't require such a RESET, then there is no need to run Disk, and thus Mana Drain seems excessive (to the point of potential mana burn)...why not just run Counterspell? or Snare? And run Engineered Explosives (instead of the 2 Shamaan)

In regards to transformational SB Oath...I would agree that UG landstill would be subpar to UR, but as temtping as transformational seems, it seems we would only be turning the deck into a half-ass Oath deck...anyone else feel that way?

Question I have here...do you think maindeck 3 Null Rods and 4 CotV would be overkill?
In my experience with URBanaFish, Shaman and CotV were pretty sweet...but I can't help but think running rod and chalice (sans gorilla) would be benfecial.

Does Tinker/DSC/Mystical have a spot in the SB? I wonder.

[Shock Wave]

Hmm...so Mana Drain is terrible in the deck, yet a necessary evil. I'm going to make the assumption that it's a necessary evil due to the fact that it's a hard counter. Also, you state how the deck wins slowly. How many times would you say that resolving a Mana Drain gives a boost to your game rather than burning for mana? It doesn't seem like it really does much for the deck as there's not exactly much explosiveness to the deck. If that's the case, Mana Drain is essentially functioning as Counterspell most of the time.  Rather than supplement/replace with Mana Leak, maybe Counterspell should be shown a bit of love here instead? I'm just saying that each life point can make a difference...

You've pretty much answered your own question. Mana Drain is a hard counter, so it is unequivocally better than Mana Leak. You will mana burn at times as a result of a Drain. However, the question to ask is not how often you mana burn, but how often you mana burn where it actually affects the outcome of the game. Again, unless you're playing in an aggro metagame (in which case you're playing the wrong deck), a few points of mana burn are rarely going to be of any relevance. However, it does happen frequently that you will get a nice boost from Drain mana, especially after sideboarding, where your answers might be good drain sinks.

why not just run Counterspell? or Snare? And run Engineered Explosives (instead of the 2 Shamaan)

I've tried all of these (except Counterspell, which doesn't require testing to arrive at the conclusion that it is awful), and I've found that they just don't make the cut. I'm not a fan of running non-blue cards in this deck, especially creatures. Shaman is a dead draw under Standstill, and he is only useful in the very early game, so running two of them in a deck with no library manipulation is not a good idea. Spell Snare was decent in testing, but since my build seems to perform well without it, I haven't run it in an actual event. I've made top 8 at 4 of the last 5 events I've played with Landstill, and I've never wished that I had Spell Snare rather than any other maindeck slot.

Tinker Colossus. This guy save my butt so many times that if i'm going to play my landstill again. Ill recruit him again. Tinker Colossus helps my match up against. red burn sligh deck, Black Sue or Necro what ever variance, against combo and fish.

Yes, I won't dispute that Tinker/Collosus will help you against Suicide or Burn. I would argue, however, that if you're planning on playing against those sorts of decks, you're better off playing another archetype. Against the more prevalent archetypes (Gifts, CS, Long, Fish, Oath), the Tinker/DSC combo is horrible. By the way, how does Tinker help against combo? Landstill beats combo by locking it down, after which it can win at its own leisure.

But anyway its still up to the player of the deck what he wants to put inside his deck.
Its still his skill how he pilot the deck. How he turn the situation in his favor.
I post my decklist just to help others in building there deck. If tinker colossus or faerie conclave or other stuff in the deck doesnt work then dont put it in. My landstill deck prove it self to me that i built it the right way the way i want it to play.

Yes, it is the player's decision on how to builld their deck. Yes, they can play Counterspells, or Shamans, or even Tarpan. They may even win with these cards in their deck. Yes, piloting the deck properly is important, but that's not what we're discussing here. It's assumed that piloting your deck properly is always important. Unfortunately, statements like "If Faerie Conclave doesn't work, don't put it in" don't really shed any light on what is an objectively optimal configuration for a given archetype (with some consideration given to the metagame). What is helpful is debating why Faerie Conclave or Tinker/DSC works or doesn't work. That's what these threads are all about.

If your Landstill deck wins for you, then that's great. However, since some of your choices are unconventional, it might help to describe your metagame so that we can have a better understanding of why some questionable inclusions may have been helpful to you.

[Sextiger]

Excessive mana burn from drain is almost never an issue in this deck since you can always just pump the mana into factory activations.  I have to agree with the other posters and say drain is a necessary evil, if often helps with just manland activations so you can keep countermagic up.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

A few things I've tryed to pick up while skimming this thread.

Ancestral Vision over Standstill. Both are absolutely awful in my opinion, but Vision might be better, both are investments over time, but Vision still lets you play your Meddling Mages so you don't have to wait for your opponent to go EOT seven cards? Brainstorm, chuck three sir.

I'm not sure U/W traditional Landstill is the way to go anymore. A slow plodded control deck might just flop. I was thinking something like MonoBlue control with some sort of White splash for reach would be a more well rounded deck. Something With a full set of Moxes, Chalice Of The Voids, Mana Leaks, Meddling Mage, Null Rod, Stifle, Mana Drain, and possibly even Thirst For Knowledge. It's like taking the disruptive package of Oath, unfortunately removing the brokeness, but gaining a fistful of consistency and flow through your deck.

If I were forced to play a Landstill type deck for this era, here is what I would sling....

4x Meddling Mage
1x Darksteel Colssus
1x Tinker

Bluestuff
4x Mana Drain
3x Mana Leak
3x Brainstorm
4x Force Of Will
2x Misdirection
2x Trickbind
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Echoing Truth
4x Thirst For Knowledge

Other
4x Chalice Of The Void
1x Balance

5x Moxen
1x Sol Ring
1x Lotus
4x Flooded Strand
2x Tundra
1x Plains
1x Strip Mine
5x Island
1x Library Of Alexandria
2x Mishra's Factory

It's rough around the edges, but I gave up on old Landstill based on the fact, too often I lost a when missing early land drops.

Only having three Brainstorms seems odd, but I never thought I needed them in these types of decks if at all, except to hit the landdrops. If the format was less cutthroat, I'd say them screw it all together, but if you need to filter your lands correctly, you certainly need them.

Sideboard would certainly have Null Rods, Orim's Chants, and other fun tools.