Blue/Black "I Will Deck You" Deck by Sir Smudge

[Sir_smudge]

Hello all.  I'm new here and am looking to start playing vintage competitively.  I've been brainstorming ideas about the deck to do that with and have come up with a Blue Black deck that aims to deck the opponent.  I have brainstormed a lot but am having a lot of trouble cutting out the fluff to get it into the 60 card requisite.  Please advise!  Any and all criticisms are appreciated. 


Lands: 20
{4}underground sea 
{1}Strip Mine 
{1}Tolarian Academy 
{4}Polluted Delta 
{1}Mikokokoro, Center of the Sea 
{1}Deserted Temple 
{2}Vault of Whispers
{3}Seat of Synod 
{1}Academy Ruins
{2}Wasteland
Discussion: Mikokokoro will help me get cards to deck while decking them, Deserted Temple can be used for Academy or Mikokoro or even Cloudposts if get 2 out. 

Creatures: 11
{1}Teferi, Mage of Zalfir 
{4}Cloud of Faeries
{3}Phyrexian Walker 
{3}Ornithopter

Discussion:  All the creatures minus Teferi are basically free or + mana to my mana pool.  The idea is to aid to brain freeze's storm and to simply keep me from getting killed.  That said Teferi is the icing on the cake.  I'd like to cast Teferi the turn before I cast Haunting Echoes or Traumatize or etc etc... to keep the level of success at a higher rate or completely avert  counters by having them use it on Teferi as opposed to the spell that will DECK them.  Teferi can also be used to slip into combat and kill an unsuspecting attacker who only sees faeries, walkers, and thopters.  Ideally; for the Faeries I have gotten the academy out one way or another bypassing the need for other means of massive mana production. 

Non-Creature Artifacts: 13
{3}Howling Mine 
{1}Mox Jet 
{1}Mox Sapphire 
{1}Black Lotus 
{1}Sol Ring 
{1}Horn of Greed 
{1}Grindstone 
{1}Whetstone 
{1}Millstone
{1}Mesmeric Orb 
{1}Crumbling Sanctuary

Discussion:  Horn of Greed mandates drawing a card for each land put out (I'm more efficient they're closer to getting decked).  Grindstone and Millstone are the basics for the job and Whetstone is for more massive amounts (or after I've tapped grind/mill).  Mesmeric orb is kind of the more aggressive one that also decks me, but if I can get yawgmoth's will in my hand it will really aid a lot to finishing off w/e is left of their deck.  Crumbling sanctuary can play a HUGE role in winning the game by stalling even more and again building my graveyard if yawgmoth's will shows up.  Howling mine although some may think it will help the opponent more than me is a pivotal role in not needing the likes of brainstorm and aiding to the cause of decking the opponent.  I get to draw more cards (some that take 10 or more from library to graveyard) that will deck them faster than they can dish out the lethal damage to kill me.

Spells:
{2}Haunting Echoes  --after decking a bit this can kill off possibilities of combos (leaving little of library left)
{1}Yawgmoth's Will   --  both dead creatures that are FREE and a brainfreeze or two to DECK them
{1}Demonic Tutor  -- fetch'T
{1}Vampiric Tutor   -- fetch'T
{4}Glimpse the Unthinkable  -- 10 cards gone prepping for haunting echoes for sure
{4}Brain Freeze  -- the ultimate workhorse of this deck
{1}Tinker  -- strongest contender for this is probably mesmeric orb and crumbling sanctuary 
{1}Intuition  -- a lot of intersting combos can be presented to an opponent with yawg's will they will ALL help
{1}Time Walk  -- go again
{1}Ancestral Recall  -- lol I might even deck them with this if I have what I need
{1}Bribery  -- an interesting addition (it does DECK them for 1).  taking their best creature and putting it into play for me could be gamebreaking.  It also gives me a chance to SEE what I'm up against so I know what to counter etc...
{2}Reminisce  -- in cases where I've decked myself too much this can add back to my own   
{4}Force of Will  -- the only counters in this deck
{1}Wheel and Deal -- 7 more cards gone I draw one more
{2}Upheaval --another pivotal card with which if I have academy I can bring out creatures and still get off some decking
{2}Traumatize --1/2 gone?!



A basic sideboard is brewing in the head... for now it's just:

{4}Damnation  -- kill all (good set-up for haunting echoes)
{2}Evacuation  --if faeries and academy out I'll have enough mana to pull out with another massive brain freeze


Please help with the sideboard too!

Sincerely;
Sir Smudge
Vintage Format Apprentice

Overview Deck Discussion:  The main idea behind the deck is to keep all cards prepping towards haunting echoes and then use a few more cards to finish off the library.  I tried to have everything make synergy towards this goal.  I know I don't have the haste of brainstorms and so far I haven't convinced myself to add them.  I think that the free creatures and the howling mines are a way to skip that fact.  The free creatures and howling mines work towards the end of decking the opponent through synergy with aforementioned combos; brainstorm only helps me get cards I need.  I have tutors and other cards to help up the odds that I draw the cards I need w/o brainstorm (I think?).  Please continue with feedback and dialog.

<-S_s->

[gotinput]

I'm late for work and only have enough time to say that Yawgmoth's Will is so broken decks are build around it as a singleton.  It is restricted.  Have a read here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/rules/tourneyplayer for a list banned/restricted cards for the Vintage format.

[The Atog Lord]

Hello Mr. Smudge. Welcome to The Mana Drain. Your eagerness to get started is laudable, but your means of proceeding may need some adjustment. The Mana Drain is a website which holds itself to a rather high standard. This means, first and foremost, that you topics should not begin with simply a decklist, devoid of discussion. That might be acceptable at some other Type One fora, but not here. Instead, we ask that you discuss in detail why you've made the choices that you have. Why did you decide to pursue a Mill deck in particular? How does that strategy offer advantages over other, better established archetypes? The Vintage Improvement forum, while a place of improvement, assumes that any deck posted here to be discussed is a serious, competitive deck. However, given the decklist, this is without a doubt a better candidate for our "casual" forum. Don't take that as any sort of insult -- none is intended.

Please edit your post to explain your card choices. Why did you opt against Brainstorm? Are you concerned about helping your opponent too much with cards like Wheel and Deal and Howling Mine? Do you think that Yawgmoth's Will and Recoup being present in so many decks makes Milling a poor strategy? Please help us better understand how you envision your deck working. Thank you.

EDIT: Thank you for adding a discussion to your decklist.

-- The Atog Lord

[Nydaeli]

Yawgmoth's Will is restricted.

Howling Mine is going to screw you over.  Cloudpost isn't worth playing, nor are most of your creatures.

Milling isn't going to be a competitive strategy, outside of the occasional Brain Freeze combo (i.e. High Tide).  Speaking of which, you might want to look into something like that.  (Do a search for Solidarity in the Legacy forums.)

Brainstorm and fetchlands are basically mandatory in your colors.

Also, format your decklist better.  The colors, brackets and horizontal lists are kind of painful.

[LotusHead]

Mesmeric Orb X4 and Leyline of the Void X4 might be a better place to start.

Howling Mine is a terrible choice, unless you at least have a plan to control it just for yourself, or prevent your opponent from actually playing cards (via lock peices).

Vintage players LOVE getting extra cards.

I own 20+ Mesmeric orbs, 16 of which are in decks.  Gaea's Blessing makes it hurt you less (or Academy Ruins).

Have fun! (but this does seem casual, as opposed to TMD Vintage or TMD Vintage Improvement.)

[Sir_smudge]

I'm late for work and only have enough time to say that Yawgmoth's Will is so broken decks are build around it as a singleton.  It is restricted.  Have a read here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/rules/tourneyplayer for a list banned/restricted cards for the Vintage format.

Edited.  Yeah I missed that was restricted.  Doesn't kill the deck with 1 instead of 4.


---

Mesmeric Orb X4 and Leyline of the Void X4 might be a better place to start.

Howling Mine is a terrible choice, unless you at least have a plan to control it just for yourself, or prevent your opponent from actually playing cards (via lock peices).

Vintage players LOVE getting extra cards.

I own 20+ Mesmeric orbs, 16 of which are in decks.  Gaea's Blessing makes it hurt you less (or Academy Ruins).

The mesmeric orb and leyline route takes out haunting echoes' contribution.  It would definitely be another interesting basic route to follow, but I'm trying for this route with a lot of subtle synergy.  I'm banking on cards like Upheaval and Crumbling sanctuary to counteract the players' extra cards.  Upheaval should even make them discard into their graveyard making haunting echoes more potent.  As for worrying about their extra cards, I have the force of will's available for only the most important cards to counter (the rest I rely upon upheaval to keep out of sight and mind).  The evacuations and damnations are also side-boarded to make them stall out from doing lethal damage.

<-S_s->

[The Atog Lord]

In general, Mr. Smudge, it is good to avoid posting twice without a response from someone else in between. Instead of "double posting," please use the convenient "edit post" feature. That way you can modify what you said before, without actually making another post. Thanks.

[Sir_smudge]

Milling isn't going to be a competitive strategy, outside of the occasional Brain Freeze combo (i.e. High Tide).  Speaking of which, you might want to look into something like that.  (Do a search for Solidarity in the Legacy forums.)

This is a brain freeze combo.  Free creatures --> Brain Freeze --> 1/3 deck gone.  Yawg Will or other decking cards rinse repeat.

<-S_s->

[Crankster]

If you want to mill in vintage you should search for the deck sensei-sensei. The deck you have posted is horribly slow, I'll wager T2 slivers could actually give you a run for your money. The problem with decking is that it fuels nearly all vintage decks until you actually have them draw the last card. Your ichorid matchup is probably 99% in favor of ichorid, or even more.

[Shake]

I think that we know the deck is casual, but based on improving what you want to build without losing its center there are some changes you could make to the deck.

I have a hard time reading all of the colors, but I don't see if your deck has any disruption besides one Tefri and a few blockers.  Also, what turn does the deck goldfish on?  I think you need to improve both, and change your card choices acordingly, with an eye to make the deck faster or more disruptive.  Typical Storm combo decks with low levels of disruption in Legacy kill on turn three (High Tide, IGGY Pop, Solidarity) in Extended they kill on turn 4 (Desire) and Standard turn 4-5 (Dragon or Heartbeat).

If you can't get your deck to be that fast without losing its center, try to take out the weak cards for LD, Counter Magic, or hand destruction.

[silvernail]

this is an actual combo deck



// Lands
    4 Polluted Delta
    7 Island
    1 Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    4 Vedalken Archmage
    3 Ornithopter
    3 Phyrexian Walker

// Spells
    1 Mox Diamond
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Grim Monolith
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Black Lotus
    2 Scroll Rack
    3 Defense Grid
    4 Force of Will
    4 Retract
    3 Hurkyl's Recall
    3 Brain Freeze
    4 Remand
    1 Frantic Search
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk


Your deck cant reliably use its creatures to generate high storm count, whereas this list does with Retract and Hurlkyl's Recall.

You have two options, you can focus on using multiple mill effects like Glimpse and Brain Freeze and Orb to eventually wear out the opponents deck, or you can focus on building up high storm to use brain freeze to deck them in one turn. Combining the two isnt an effective possiblity most of the time.

[Sir_smudge]

this is an actual combo deck
etc etc...

Yes.  This is more about what I was looking for, but couldn't come up with.  I might mod this more towards what I was looking for.  Thanks for all your input.  Still getting used to Vintage so some more obvious combos were overlooked Hurkyl's Recall and Retract are right on the money. 

<-S_s->

ps- I'm leaning towards mana drains for the turn before prepping plus more disruption to pull off a more expensive version of that using haunting echoes or more expensive casting cost cards.  We'll see if it works soon?!

[Crankster]

If you are serious about the milling I would consider something like this:
12x Cobolds
4x Skullclamp
4x Cloudstone curio
2x Brainfreeze
Xx Other cards

[Sir_smudge]

If you are serious about the milling I would consider something like this:
12x Cobolds
4x Skullclamp
4x Cloudstone curio
2x Brainfreeze
Xx Other cards

how do you think kobolds and Cloudstone Curios fare as compared to the set of creatures that cost 3 or less plus alluren. 

Cavern harpy
Man-o'-war
Raven Familiar
Soul Warden
Rishadan Cutpurse
etc etc... all those infinite combos
aside from infinite decking infinite draw or life come along the way too. 

Maybe there's room for both combos?

Hmm...

<-S_s-> Sir Smudge.

[Crankster]

Alluren is green, and is an even saucier drain target than the curio is.
You can keep the deck UB or mono-U with the cobold combo, I find that kinda neat.

[Sir_smudge]

How do you think Kobolds then compare to the likes of say:

Cloud of Faeries
Teferi's Isle
and Equilibrium

For prepping Brain Freeze?

(while also tossing in high tide among other aides  to the process)

I guess my real ultimate question is:  What is the most effective brain freeze combo deck in regards to win ratio VS the common archetypes? (and why?)  I'm looking for the most universally resilient deck.  The deck that'll hold it's own against the whole array of variations of winning decks.

Whatever deck answers that question is the deck I'll soon be trying to construct. 

[Crankster]

I like the cobolds because clamp is just so sweet. I guess sensei sensei is the best brain freeze deck for vintage though.

[Sir_smudge]

For the Sake of completing (in theory) this thread VIA listing the "best" brain freeze deck:

Sensei Sensei
Keith Johnson
6th place, SCG P9
2-26-05

1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
5 Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Helm of Awakening
3 Future Sight
1 Intuition
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Frantic Search
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Timetwister
3 Deep Analysis
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Brain Freeze
2 Annul
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Flash Counter
1 Coffin Purge
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Stifle






Some questions:

Even with helm of awakenings isn't future sight a little pricey? 
Are the future sights really necessary to set this deck off? 
It's Sensei's Divining top + Future sight for the infinite storm correct?
Does helm of awakening work for flashback?  (yes? right?!)

What makes sensei sensei better than say a Kobold + Cloudstone Helio combo with a larger focus on disruption or more of the same tutoring for the combo? 
It seems like kobold + helio would be as likely to fire as this.  Kobold Cloudstone Helio Brainfreeze and a lot of disruption seems like it'd be more effective to me.  Future sight is 3B 2 colorless (unless helm of awakening is out) VS cloudstone helio in the kobold version.

[Crankster]

IIRC the helm does nothing for flashback, though I could be wrong on that one.
Future sight is essential for the combo. Besides it's quite awesome on it's own, it's hard to lose once you play it. The manacost is slightly prohibitive, and that is probably the reason sensei sensei is not tier 1 these days. You still get to run a host of awesome cards and you get to deck people