[Single Card Discussion] Delay

[Machinus]

Now, I have often wondered if counterspell would see play if it cost 1U. We have seen several approximations to this test, but I think we are about to receive by far the closest yet.

Delay
1U
Instant
Counter target spell. If the spell is countered in this way, remove it from the game with three time counters on it instead of putting it into its owner's graveyard. If it doesn't have suspend, it gains suspend.


After the spell is countered in this way, you get three turns. I think this is frequently going to be longer than the rest of the game, even of only one of the decks is Gifts or Long. Is this true? How often will this spell resolve after being RFGed? Does this card provide a good hard-counter option for combo-control?

[TimDeluxeIt]

It is an interesting alternative to remand, and is better in most situations, but I don't think is belongs it combo/control. Perhaps it could be good in some fish variant as an alternative to daze?

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

It is an interesting alternative to remand, and is better in most situations, but I don't think is belongs it combo/control. Perhaps it could be good in some fish variant as an alternative to daze?

The reason people play daze is that it is possible to cast it for free. This is important becasue fishplayers want to spend the mana they have got to play creatures/disruption. In my eyes delay can not fulfil this role.
In some decks it might be an alternitive to remand or manaleak but nut daze.

[zeus-online]

Hmm the question is if this is better then mana leak, rune snag or remand....Which would require more testing then i'm willing to put into it.

In some decks this is a hard counter, but in the decks that have played mana leaks in the past, delay would not be all too hot since they're generally speaking slow control decks.

/Zeus

Edit: 3 turns to prepare for a card could be enough to render it harmless though.

[runeblayde]

I think this card shows a lot of potential for replacing mana leak, while it is only slightly less potent in the first couple of turns (and even that being debatable), it should become far more potent against late game finishers where mana leak would fall short.  I wouldn't use it to replace daze, but I would most likely replace remand with this unless I was looking to remand my own storm spell.

[Draven]

I don't think this card is better than the alternatives, however, this does win counter wars. Great, your Mana Drain, FoW etc has suspend. In 3 upkeeps it resolves, great, way to go...

However, in general, I would rather play with Leak or Rune Snag...

[Edit] MoxLotus, looks like I beat you by about 40 seconds 

[Moxlotus]

It is important to note that this is a hard counter during a counter war, much the same way Ertai's Meddling is.  Could see see play in Oath.

[LotusHead]

As someone who maindecked Ertai's Meddling in Sanctioned T1 in Northern California in early post 5th Dawn T1, Delay is awesome!

[Nehptis]

The initial thinking over in the Oath thread is that it may compete and could win the spot vs. Mana Leak.  Overall I think that Delay would only replace non-Pitch counters.  So, it's not going to replace FOW, Daze, etc.  It could replace Leak, or Remand, etc. only.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=32173.30

[ErkBek]

As vintage's biggest proponent of Remand, I just don't see this card working in any other deck than oath. Combo control decks may be able to bye time with this card, but wouldn't mana leak do the same for the most part in them? And I don't see any of them playing that card.

[Stamford]

I think i found another usage for this card, though it may not be entirely revolutionary.

For a narrow example, against MDG, you manage to Delay a Yawg Will when your opponent had just gifts for recoup, will, lotus and whatever, you would have managed to stop your opponent from being able to flashback will again the next turn.


Question though, if you Delay a flashbacked spell, does it still remove from game itself and gain suspend?

If it does, when it finally resolves, does it go to the GY?

[roberts91rom]

IMO this card fits well at the 2 mana cost counters slot. I think the new "order of playbility" will be Mana Drain>Delay>Remand>Rune Snag>Mana Leak. A simple glance at the facts proves that if you want a counter at 2, this is better than Drain if you can't afford UU in your deck. (Much like mana leak used to be) Since Remand seems to be the next closest I'm going to examine similarities and differences.

Similarities:
1. Both counter a spell.
2. Both are soft counters.
3. Both delay the spell from being played.
4. Both can protect Tendrils. (Delay Tendrils then 3 turns later with suspend on the stack play whatever spells you can)

Delay>Remand:
1. It gives you 3 turns instead of 1. (At best)
2. Is a hard counter against certain spells. (Counters, conditional cards, etc.)
3. Allows you to get a total of 2-3 cards before suspend wears off. (Remand is 1-2)

Remand>Delay:
1. Cantrips instantly.
2. Makes them pay mana for the spell that comes back.
3. Good at making storm.

I play control decks, so of course I am inclined to say Delay is better because in the decks I play the advantages of Delay are better than the advantages of Remand. However, a combo player (like kobefan) seems to be inclined that Remand is better. Both cards are great, but we can all agree that there are enough counters (FoW/MisD/Daze/Drain/Duress/REBs) to keep Remand/Delay/Snag out of most decks.

As to this vs. Mana Leak, the only deck that would take Leak/Snag>Delay is Fish, because in those 3 turns you get there is rarely the opportunity to blow out and win. (Since we are assuming the Fish player kept 1U open for a few turns)

In the end this issue won't be settled. The card will be played by some, dismissed by others. Just like the Gifts vs. Intuition debate. Both are great cards, neither is clearly better than the other. Both are played. In the end those with Intuition are happy and those with Gifts are happy(er ).

As for the Flashback question, the way suspend is worded I would assume it gets countered, is removed from the game, gets the counters, three turns later it goes on the stack, resolves then goes back to the graveyard because it was still played as a regular spell in this instance. Suspend is like playing a spell normally, except you don't pay the mana cost. Should I be wrong correct me.

[vroman]

I tested this card fairly thoroughly in various fish shells. in the world of vintage Delay is almost exactly like U1 Counterspell. whether that is exciting enough to warrant widespread play, is not my territory.

[Implacable]

In the end this issue won't be settled. The card will be played by some, dismissed by others. Just like the Gifts vs. Intuition debate. Both are great cards, neither is clearly better than the other. Both are played. In the end those with Intuition are happy and those with Gifts are happy(er ).

May I disagree with this?  I mean, you can say that we should just agree to disagree, but I think that tournament results in the most active and innovative part of the global metagame (The States) show which is the better card.

[Binary]

Question though, if you Delay a flashbacked spell, does it still remove from game itself and gain suspend?

Yes. Flashback only replaces the event of the card going somewhere other than the RFG zone.

If it does, when it finally resolves, does it go to the GY?

Yes. The spell is considered a new object when you replay it via suspend, and "forgets" that it was previously played via flashback.