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Author Topic: U/B Disruptor  (Read 2339 times)
Seraphim3577
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« on: April 25, 2007, 11:00:05 am »

I played this deck at Becker's last tournament and it did very poorly for me (largely in part to me "testing" something at a tournament).  In testing, I've found that it beats up on the following decks (60% wins or better):
Fish, Gifts, Ichorid, and Control Slaver.  Its combo match is okay, but can't really deal with a resolved necro / bargain.  At any rate, here is the decklist:

U/B Disruptor

4 Dark Confidant
3 Hypnotic Specter

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk
1 Darkblast
1 Echoing Truth / Rebuild (meta dependent)
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrills of Agony
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

3 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual

5 moxen
1 lotus petal
1 black lotus
1 tolarian academy
4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
2 swamp
2 island

sb:
4 Dystopia
4 Energy Flux
1 Echoing Truth
2 Rebuild (stax.meta)
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 ??? (tinker + titan is good here)

Reasons for my failure with the deck at the tournament include the following:
I tried cutting 2 brainstorms for the tinker + titan plan maindeck...
Round 1 I lost to confident damage on myself (flipping titan up)
Round 2 I beat the poo out of slaver piloted by a gws member
Round 3 I lost to my test partner playing gifts (he knew I was maindecking 0 echoing truth, 3 daze, and 4 leyline)...I saw 0 leylines in opening hands in both games, but was totally outclassed by him countering 4 spells by turn 4 in both games including a pair of duresses against me game 2 (not much you can do against the nuts, even if its 2 games in a row).
Round 4, I lost to what I call mana flood, (drawing 10 mana sources out of 20) in both games against oath.


I know that every deck has its weakness, Oath could easily be this deck's weakness.  It's reliance on creatuers to gain card advantage is a huge drawback.  It probably packs it up and loses to u/b fish due to a lack of creature control.  Limited testing has shown that darkblast can be a great card against them, though.
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RaleighNCTourneys
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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2007, 12:58:11 pm »

When you say this deck wins at least 60% against: Fish, Gifts, Ichorid, and Control Slaver... which ones are more than 60% and how much more (roughly) are they? I would take any of the mentioned decks over your list any day.
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Seraphim3577
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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2007, 01:18:30 pm »

Control Slaver is as close to a bye as you can get (somewhere close to 85%) in type 1.  I've tried various dry slaver and and burning slaver builds, but they all fall victim to discard, darkblast, and leyline. 

Gifts is right at about 55-60%.  Sometimes Gifts just goes broken, but usually cards like duress and leyline hit their gameplan hard.  I haven't really had gifts be able to do too much to this deck so far.

Fish is somewhat bad game 1.  The biggest problem they have is identifying what to name with meddling mage game 1.  Most of the time they will just think you are a bad sui-black deck / u/b fish which allows you to steal game 1s.  Game 2 and 3 get significantly better after boarding dystopia's and tinker + titan.  I think the matchup (u/w or u/w/b fish is all that is considered here) preboard is: 30/70, postboard:  75/25.

Ichorid matchup is highly dependent on leyline of the void.  I find that games where I don't have it in opening hand I can still win if its in my top 2-3 cards per brainstorm -> dark rit -> leyline on turn 1-2.  Post board gets better after crypts and the fact that they have to nuke their gameplan.  Preboard:  40-45% / 60-55%.  Postboard:  65/40.

ICBM / Chalice Oath lists is something like 20-80 game 1.  Only getting to about 50/50 games 2 and 3.
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ErkBek
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A strong play.

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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2007, 07:16:43 pm »

Nick, I find those test numbers hard to believe. Any chance it has to do with having a person playing the UB disruptor simply being better or more experienced with their deck. 85% vs. Slaver is simply not possible. I'd say about 1 game in 10, a deck typically just punts from mulling itself to death or into a bad hand. So Slaver beats you like once every 18 games when you draw a reasonable hand?

What's the point of Daze in here? Is it to protect your creatures? randomly catch a spell that an opponent tapped out on? Would stifle be better?

I'm not trying to say that the deck looks bad or anything, but you are claiming some pretty outrageous numbers. You're going to have to prove it this weekend I guess.  Very Happy
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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2007, 07:37:32 pm »

Confidant is both your draw engine and half of your win conditions. This seems extremely fragile.

Daze, however, looks insanely good in this deck. I have a ton of respect for this card, and turn 1 USea, duress, holding daze seems pretty broken.
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Stamford
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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2007, 06:04:38 am »

this deck looks unfocused.

Run Dimir Cutpurse in place of hypnotic specter. You dont need the specter in this metagame.

For control against the GY, run Jotun Grunt or Yixlid Jailer.

Since you are running artifact mana and a fair amount of them, you might consider Erayo.

Overall, this is just a weakened SS deck. You should see SS and how focused it is instead of randomly putting a pile of cards up.

On the other hand, you can also try UBW Fish with 15 creatures, 4 Confidant, 4 Jotun Grunt, 4 Dimir CUtpurse and 3 Erayo as your suite. Together with 5 moxen, 1-2 crypts, 1 lotus and 1 petal with the full FoW, Daze and MisD set and Recall and 4 BS and of course, Time Walk. Extremely synergistic and vey efficient vs a combo/control metagame.
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Seraphim3577
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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2007, 07:30:49 am »

Yes, I do mean that any reasonable hand will beat any slaver hand...
I've watches my opponents first turn welder, 2nd turn tinker countering my counter, and still just lose the game off the back of 1 bounce spell.  Leyline, duress, and daze wreck their early game.  The only problem I've had with the deck comes from when I don't see a hypnotic specter and my opponent knows to play around daze.

In terms of this being a "bad" ss or fish deck, I don't like running decks that can't just win the game.  Fish, ss, and tmwa (to add more decks into this category) cannot just overpower the opponent.  They all play to disrupt the opponent to the point in which they can get a turn 6-9 win.  I find this often leaves many players enough time to answer the problems laid out before them.  This deck aims to win on turn 5.  It usually plays out with a turn 1 confidant, duress, or hyppie, leaving it a little weak on turn 1, but creating an excellent strategy for beating decks on turn 2.  Turn 4 is usually spent playing draw spells / tutors to find yawg will so that it can just win the game with a lethal tendrils.  Creatures can do it all by themselves if necessary, but thats not the strongest part of the deck.

@kobefan - I decided not to run this saturday due to its inability to deal with oath and its clock being too slow to deal with draw7 combo.  Considering that against both gifts and slaver, a turn 1-2 leyline is just as potent as a turn 0 80-90% of the time, I would suggest running this deck if your metagames are packed full of those decks.

@stamford - This deck does appear to be unfocused on paper.  It is even slightly unfocused in play.  Its ability to knock an opponent out of the game as early as turn 2 is the reason I would play it.  The reason I did end up playing it was because I couldn't put together anything that had a good matchup against ichorid and I was expecting ichorid to show up at the small tourney.  To answer the question of card choices, I thought it would be plainly obvious that the goal is to get either a turn 1 dark confidant, hypnotic specter, or duress.  Replacing hypnotic specter with dimir cutpurse severely hurts the chances of having the turn 1 piece of disruption.  As far as leyline vs jotun grunt - Grunt is nowhere near as effective at hosing your opponent's graveyard as leyline is.  The fact that it can be uncounterable is a huge boon, also.  The primary reason whey leyline is used instead of withered wretch / jotun grunt is that this deck only needs 2 extra cards in its deck to go the combo route:  Yawgmoth's Will and Tendrils of Agony.  Tendrils is the only dead draw as Yawgmoth's Will can just provide extreme card advantage even without having a tutor to get the tendrils.  Grunt hurts my own graveyard as well as my opponents, but without the ability to shutoff goblin welder (my turn I thirst, pitch titan, weld titan and win), doesn't stop ichorid fast enough, and doesn't answer eot gifts ungiven.

I kept testing the deck before the tournament to see what I should sideboard against do to poor matchups and concluded that stax and shop aggro had to be answered (ergo the energy fluxes).  I didn't get enough time to test oath, but dystopia appeared to be solid against angel oath and coupled to do well vs fish which is a sore spot for the deck. 

When I finally found a competent gifts player, we played 12 games preboard (not nearly enough of a sample size, I know), but I won 11 of them.  He felt overpowered the entire way.  If he did a turn 1 merchant scroll, I would kill his hand with duress + daze or fow.  Leyline turned gifts off a majority of the time which totally allowed my hypnotics and dark confidants to gain me enough card advantage to just win the game with a mid-game tendrils, twice without using yawg will.


@everyone reading this thread - The point of me posting this decklist is that I think its important to reazlie that hybrid strategies can and do work.  I also wanted to share my thoughts and experience with a deck I doubt I will pick up again, but I still feel deserves some respect if the metagame fits. 

Tendrils + disruptive aggro can win games and beat up on many decks.  The reason why I think this deck is soo successful at what it does is due to its ability to answer graveyard recursion without spending mana (leyline is better than crypt), control the stack turns 1-2 while it sets up (the primary reason daze is run), and finally finish the game by wrecking the opponents hand and tutoring up yawg will.

Early in this deck's evolution, I was running phyrexian negators and nantuko shades.  My goal was to make a sui-black deck that had some excellent card draw and disruption.  I quickly cut the shades due to how mana hungry they are.  I started looking at the shell of the deck and going, I really would like a couple tutors to find my recall, darkblast, and timewalk.  Then I sat there with the answer staring me in the face...i'm running dark ritual, cabal ritual, moxen, both lotuses, and tutors, how good would yawgmoth's will and tendrils be in my 3 phyrexian negator slots.  I found that Yawg Win was very easy to achieve with this deck, and usually won the game faster than negator could.


Anyways, the reasons for me posting this list have been stated.  I just wanted everyone to see a creation that could be an answer to some metagames.  I never really meant to post this and then try to spend 2-3 hours of my time defending it.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 08:30:32 am by Seraphim3577 » Logged
Moxlotus
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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2007, 12:53:11 pm »

Quote
Anyways, the reasons for me posting this list have been stated.  I just wanted everyone to see a creation that could be an answer to some metagames.  I never really meant to post this and then try to spend 2-3 hours of my time defending it.

Well, that's the point of posting decks on TMD.  If you make a post and say it is good, you are expected to defend it.  Especially when you make claims such as destroying Slaver and Gifts when the deck really doesn't look like it can do that.  I don't have time to test every deck--nobody does.  If you want the deck to have respect, you must be able to show and explain WHY the deck is good.  If you can't explain why card X is chosen over card Y, then it doesn't look like you made the right decision to include card X.  You should always be able to explain why a card is in the deck and why it is better than alternatives, or you should be playing the alternatives.

Quote
When I finally found a competent gifts player, we played 12 games preboard (not nearly enough of a sample size, I know), but I won 11 of them.  He felt overpowered the entire way.  If he did a turn 1 merchant scroll, I would kill his hand with duress + daze or fow.  Leyline turned gifts off a majority of the time which totally allowed my hypnotics and dark confidants to gain me enough card advantage to just win the game with a mid-game tendrils, twice without using yawg will

No offense, but if a person can only win 1 game out of 12, no matter what decks they are, I highly doubt they are competant with the deck.  A type 2 zoo deck should be able to take down a Gifts deck once in twelve games just due to getting lucky with mana screw or something.
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Seraphim3577
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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2007, 02:02:37 pm »

@moxlotus - I definitely understand what you are saying, but I don't think that people undesrstand what this deck does well, or even why it would do well against the named decks.

I'll give a brief synopsis of how it affects slaver and gifts.  Slaver and gifts are considered "drain decks" because they run mana drain and are built to exploit the large tempo boost granted them from casting mana drain or spell.  Mana Drain is usually active on turn 2.  1/10 times it will be castable turn 1, but thats part of what most people consider the nuts draws...

If you design your deck to setup on turn 1 so that it can overpower decks turns 2-5, you can almost negate the affect mana drain can have on a deck.  For example: 

Turn 1, drain player plays land, off color mox and merchant scroll for fow / gifts / ancestral (if gifts) or a turn 1 welder / brainstorm (if slaver).  This play is to setup a turn 2 explosion into a turn 3-4 win.  My deck (based on statistics), will do something incredibly pertinent to the board or hand of the opponent on turn 1.  A turn 1 hypnotic specter (approximately 20% of the time), a turn 1 confidant (30% of the time), or a turn 1 duress (35% of the time) is the usual play of the deck (this is why cutpurse is a bad call for this deck). 

Since all of the decks listed do some setup on turn 1 (mine actually can attack their hand on turn 1 erasing their setup), turn 2 is where the action starts.  Gifts and slaver both usually have between 3 and 4 mana on turn 2 due to acceleration.  This allows them to go for tutoring their crushing game finishers (gifts, thirst, recall).  Gifts and thirst are often turned off with leyline, but in the event they are not, they cast a gifts.  Statistics say that by turn 2, I should have a daze or fow between 70-80% of the time, so I would usually cast a counter on their spell.  If my opponent counters my counter, they resolve the final piece of their setup puzzle.  Now, 40% of the time, leyline has neutered their ability to flat out win with their gifts.  20% of the time, I should be able to swing with hypnotic specter and force them to dump a critical piece of the puzzle.  Or 35% of the time, my duress hits one of their counters and I actually counter their bomb card.

No, I'm not saying that 95% of the time this means I win, but it means that my deck forces my opponent to have "the nuts" or just get buried in card advantage by dark confidant and / or hypnotic specter.  This is actually completed by having a more relevant turn 1 play for the matchup.  Duress, hypnotic specter, and dark confidant are much more pertinent to the game than merchant scroll and welder.  MDGifts accels at setting up a bomb spell (ancestral recall or gifts ungiven) and then winning with a series of plays based off card advantage after that.  Slaver's heavy reliance on the graveyard allows them to just run neutered against leyline most of the time. 

Most decks aren't prepared to deal with leyline game 1.  Gifts often runs echoing truth / chain of vapor game 1, but that means that they spend a tutor and usually turns 2-3 to get rid of a spell that I paid no mana for and can usually just replay at that point.

In both of the games I lost to gifts in the tournament, my opponent was smart enough to realize how to play against my deck. 
Game 1 should have been a blow-out because he countered 4 spells before turn 4.  Instead, Leyline turned off his gifts, and he got lucky on two straight mana crypt coin flips that allowed him to end the game at 1 life after I spent a turn 4 tendrils to try to get myself out of yawg-win range.  He ended the game at 1 life and had just enough copies of tendrils to erase my tendrils +20.

Game 2 was extremely close.  I actually lost game 2 to a resolved rebuild -> tendrils because confidant hit 2 straight leylines putting me at 9 life and allowing him to steal the game.  The game played out almost exactly as scripted above.  I opened a hand with 2x confidant, lotus, fow, delta, and usea.  He forced the 1st confidant, but the 2nd resolved.  He tried to gifts on turn 2, which got fowd (pitching brainstorm).  I cast a turn 3 hypnotic and was swinging.  I was one turn away from winning (yawg will in hand but needed a ritual effect to finish the tutor chain), but did not have the counter in hand (2x leylines).  He cast rebuild into tendrils to put me at 1 life and I died to revealing duress off the top of my library.

<3 becker for implying that i'm a better player than my opponents most of the time Wink

Maybe it is a question of playskill, but I feel that any competent player can play much better if they have a good idea of whats in their opponent's hand 90% of the time.  This deck is built to exploit knowledge of the opponent's hand and most deck's vulnerability to leyline.  In short, I believe this deck has strategic superioirity to drain decks.  I'd love to take it to Becker's tourney saturday, but the best part of this deck is the surprise of getting hit by leylines and dazes.  Once that is gone, it becomes a lot harder to stop cards like gifts and thirst when your opponent knows not to tap out for them.

Anywho, I hope that this explenation has been sufficient.  Please feel free to provide counterexamples, but keep them within them reasonable.  I don't take pleasure in hearing something like:  well, they go lotus -> recall -> gifts on turn 1 you lose!

Edit - I usually throw out games in my results that ended where someone mulled to 5 and had 1 land or something.  To try to make testing reasonable, events in which my opponent has to mull to 5 or less, I have them draw back up to 6 or 7. 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 02:11:58 pm by Seraphim3577 » Logged
ErkBek
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A strong play.

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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2007, 03:08:11 pm »

<3 becker for implying that i'm a better player than my opponents most of the time Wink

What I was getting at was some sort of testing bias. For example with IT if we went by my numbers in tournaments my matchups would have been this

Stax - 80%
CS - 60%
UW fish - 100%
Oath - 80%
Long - 100%
IT Mirror - 100%
Old Ichorid - 100%
Random aggro - 100%
Gifts - 0%

Holy Crap. Just don't play vs. gifts. I never once beat it in 5 matches. Even the mirror is favorable!.....do you see the problem here? I think its apparent.

Edit - I usually throw out games in my results that ended where someone mulled to 5 and had 1 land or something.  To try to make testing reasonable, events in which my opponent has to mull to 5 or less, I have them draw back up to 6 or 7. 

I don't think you can do this to give realistic numbers. I say take 7 cards when playing for fun, but in testing if someone mulls to 4 and loses its still a game towards the numbers.

If you didn't count these games Long would have an inflated match percentages. Probably 1 once in every 6 games I mull to 5, 4, or even 3 with Long (and yes, long can still occasionally pull these games out).
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Seraphim3577
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« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2007, 03:23:00 pm »

I do have testing bias, but it is almost always against my deck for the following reason:
I do not use the same rule of thumb for my deck as I do my opponents for mulligans.  In testing, if I find that I have to mull too much with an aggro-control deck, that means that there are mana issues (either not enough, too much, wrong colors, bad curve, etc...).

In response to your claim that those number should count... since I rarely play "tier 1" decks, numbers for matches against my deck rarely matter.  So I tend to be more critical of my deck and thus the bias is just imposed on it in this manner.

When I am testing a deck, I spend the first 5-10 games attempting to learn the matchup.  Usually, I'm right-on in how to address critical cards just by looking at them.  Occasionally, I do find that the matchups are not as straight-forward as I had anticipated and am forced to play more matches to "learn" how to beat the deck with certain cards.  My best example of this was learning the pikula vs threshold matchup in legacy before gencon last year.  I couldn't improve the matchup over 50-60% post sb until I actually realized that the problem was dark confidant.  Once I started sideboarding him out, the matchup went to 80% postboard (very counter-intuitive since he is the reason to play the deck).


Edit:  To adress the issue of Long type decks, combo has a tendency to just lose to itself.  I agree that you should address mulligans in your matches with combo decks that often mulligan most questionable hands.  This is not usually the case for aggro-control as the redundency built into them usually allows them to consistently keep 6-7 card hands since their power level is usually of close to the same caliber in all of their cards.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 03:25:31 pm by Seraphim3577 » Logged
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