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Author Topic: Draw 7 creature - Draconic Thaumaturgist  (Read 2705 times)
Titanium Dragon
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« on: May 01, 2007, 08:15:33 pm »

We all saw Magus of the Jar in Time Spiral, and we all know it is horrible, despite costing the same amount of mana as Memory Jar. While the blue mana cost obviously has something to do with it, I think the biggest reason it is bad is because it lacks haste. So... with that in mind, I tried to create another draw 7 card.

Draconic Thaumaturgist
4RR
Creature - Dragon Wizard (oh, how I want it to be a Lizard Wizard...)
Flying
T: Each player discards their hand, then draws seven cards.
3/3

I'm trying to figure out whether or not that's actually broken. Without haste, it seems like it actually kind of sucks; it can be killed by every color (even green can nuke it thanks to its flying, which is entirely intentional) and even if you do use it, chances are you'll only use it once (as their fresh seven will more than likely include some way of getting rid of it, assuming you don't win). It seems very powerful, but its high cost means you aren't likely to be casting it too early - I don't see it as very likely you'd get it active before turn 4, off turn 3 Rite of Flame + Seething Song, outside of formats like Vintage (where it still is hard to get active beforee turn 3, though it is admittedly less vulnerable to creature kill).

So, what do you think? Overpowered? Overcosted? Horrible?
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Jaynel
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« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2007, 09:48:20 pm »

Dragon Mage? It does the exact same thing upon combat damage.
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Ephraim
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« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2007, 10:55:30 pm »

I apologize if I come across as a buzzkill, but this card is ridiculous.  That ability is the kind of thing that I classify as "broken at any cost."  With Dragon Mage, which Jaynel sited, there are two factors preventing it from being broken.  One, if you're attacking with a 5/5 creature and it isn't being blocked, any extra cards you draw will just help you to win more.  The fact of the matter is, your opponent has four or fewer turns to live, whether your 5/5 is Dragon Mage or good ol' Shivan Dragon.  Two, Dragon Mage's card-drawing ability is negated by a chump blocker.

Your card begs to be "cheated" into play, generally has no business attacking (since you want to be able to use that juicy ability,) and there's no simple way to prevent you from using the ability.

If you want this ability to be fair, make it difficult to activate.  The following is just one possible option:

Komodo Thaumaturge
3RR
Creature -- Lizard Wizard
3/3

When Komodo Thaumaturge is put into a graveyard from play, each player discards his or her hand, then draws seven cards.

***

This option at least requires you to jump through hoops if you want to cast Wheel of Fortune every turn.
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Titanium Dragon
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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2007, 02:31:30 am »

I hardly think it is broken at any cost; Magus of the Jar is a unilateral draw 7 card (your opponent doesn’t get to keep their 7, though they could potentially use any instants) and sees absolutely no play whatsoever. Generally, draw 7 spells are used in the process of going off, so whether or not the effect is repeatable is irrelevant most of the time because you’re going to have a fresh hand and probably win. A deck that uses draw 7 for some purpose other than comboing out is not what needs to be worried about, and I think it’d be a lot of fun.

To be honest, I think it probably is not even playable. Dragon Mage costs 1 more. Sure, he can be chumped, but how often are 5/5 fliers chumped? Not very. Most decks don’t have cards that even –can- chump it, and even if they did, you’re playing red, so probably have the tools to deal with it. Yet Dragon Mage saw practically no play. Why? Well, it turns out that giving your opponent 7 cards gives him the tools to kill your dude, and if you have a 5/5 flier out beating them down you’re probably winning. So he’s actually a tension card, and as well all know, tension cards tend to suck.

This guy does away with the whole ability to kill people directly for simply drawing (and being -2/-2) and costing 1 less mana. Obviously the best use of him is some manner of twiddle-type spell, tapping and untapping him and drawing two dozen cards in a turn. The problem is that twiddle spells are somewhat limited in versatility, and the bilateral draw means you have to have some way of breaking deck parity to deck out your opponent – and in the meanwhile if they have any instant speed answers in their deck they will see them and be able to nuke your draw 7 critter. And if you can pull off this deck, this is a turn 4 kill at best, and probably more like a turn 5 kill given your need for red mana and the lack of red twiddle effects. And a turn 4 or 5 kill dependent on a 3/3 flier that costs 6 mana and gives your opponent the opportunity to kill him by letting them see dozens of cards doesn’t sound like it is likely to be a problem, or even good.

You could try a broken jar style deck, with Megrim (and/or underworld dreams), but those are off in a third color and have heavy black commitments. Sure, maybe in Legacy it might be vaugely interesting, but there are better ways to win in that format that don't involve running janky spells like Megrim.

Summoning sickness is, I think, what makes these creatures weak. Magus of the Jar sees no play at all because he’s too vulnerable; the type of deck these guys go into, they’re one of the few targets so they will get nuked. Both can easily be cast turn 3 via accel, and come online turn 4. Yet I doubt either would be just because they aren’t worth it and there are better things to ramp up to.

I think his ability is very flashy, but looking at Dragon Mage actually makes me feel better about him.

Quote
Your card begs to be "cheated" into play, generally has no business attacking (since you want to be able to use that juicy ability,) and there's no simple way to prevent you from using the ability.

Cheating him into play is cute, but reanimation spells cost 4 mana these days, and you have to get him into your graveyard somehow. Akroma is in standard and is a better reanimation target. He is cute in a reanimator deck (as he can help set up your next reanimation spell), but again, I think generally you’d rather have an unsolvable SSS or Akroma style fatty than a 3/3 that doesn’t even have haste and won’t win the game on his own.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 09:11:30 am by Titanium Dragon » Logged
Guardian
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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2007, 11:29:58 am »

I tried NUMEROUS times to find a "correct" draw 7 effect. I failed NUMEROUS times. One time, I nearly reached balance with this: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=19920.0. I still failed. By their nature, draw 7 have to be horrible or broken. Simple as that.
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parallax
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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2007, 01:38:42 pm »

I think it's fine. Draw 7 cards are not broken at any cost. They are broken at the 3-mana cost that many of them were printed at. The fact that it's a creature makes it vulnerable. The fact that you have to wait a turn makes it worthless in combo decks. Also, the fact that it doesn't deal 5 damage each time you activate it makes it worse than Dragon Mage.

Fair Draw7
{4} {U} {U}
Sorcery
Each player discards their hand and draws seven cards.

See, it's not hard to make a fair draw7.
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How about choosing a non-legend creature? Otherwise he is a UG instant Wrath of Frog.
Guardian
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2007, 02:24:42 pm »

Parallax, this is fair, but it's slow and boring. Time Spiral is the comparison here and your card is strictly worse than a card which is much less played. I understand Wheel of Fortune and Timetwister are big mistakes, but those are nearly 15 years old. But look at the big picture. Draw 7 that are good generally become broken and fair ones are usually forgotten because they don't make the cut. Sad but true.
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Ephraim
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LordZakath
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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2007, 04:32:32 pm »

Draw 7 cards are not broken at any cost.

Allow me to clarify.  What I was trying to say was that a permanent that taps to cast Wheel of Fortune is broken at any cost.  There has to be some other associated cost.  Spellshaping frequently works, but not in this case, because you're discarding your hand anyway.
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Marco
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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2007, 05:11:45 pm »

What about a different kind of Spellshaping? (If it can still be called that.)

T, Sacrifice two lands: Each player discards his or her hand and draws seven cards.
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Ephraim
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LordZakath
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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2007, 05:28:41 pm »

What about a different kind of Spellshaping? (If it can still be called that.)

T, Sacrifice two lands: Each player discards his or her hand and draws seven cards.

There are a whole slew of possible additional costs.  Sacrifice a creature or remove the top 7 cards of your library from the game are the two that I thought of before.  You could also use appropriate penalties, such as tacking on "You can't play spells this turn" to the ability.
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EKM_Ichorid
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« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2007, 01:42:29 pm »

Dragon Genius  {3} {U} {U}
Creature - Dragon Wizard
Haste
{Tap}: Each player discards their hand and then draws 7 cards. You may not use the ability during your turn.
2/4

I like this, what do you guys think?
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Guardian
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« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2007, 02:56:00 pm »

EKM Ichorid, this is broken I think. Problem is that it's easy to cheap it into play and wait until your opponent's EOT to settle a big turn. And why would a dragon be blue? Making it both red and blue would be nicer: the wheel of fortune and dragon part are red, but the wheel and wizard thing seems blue. Anyway, I still believe this is too strong.
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parallax
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« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2007, 02:10:02 pm »

I see no problem with the card as originally posted from a power-level stand-point. My biggest problem with the card is that is just too similar to Magus of the Bazaar and Dragon Mage. This card does nothing new. Also, I like Dragons better when you actually attack with them.
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How about choosing a non-legend creature? Otherwise he is a UG instant Wrath of Frog.
EKM_Ichorid
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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2007, 08:51:30 pm »

EKM Ichorid, this is broken I think. Problem is that it's easy to cheap it into play and wait until your opponent's EOT to settle a big turn. And why would a dragon be blue? Making it both red and blue would be nicer: the wheel of fortune and dragon part are red, but the wheel and wizard thing seems blue. Anyway, I still believe this is too strong.

I was going to make it during their pre-combat mainphase only, but I figure that even if you do it EOT, you can't dump your hand and just draw 7, taking away alot of brokenness.

There are Dragons in all the colors.
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