Finding the optimal pitch long list

[Mindslaver]

I've been a control slaver player for nearly 2 years, but the recent shift in the metagame has made me consider pitch long as probably the best deck of choice in the current metagame. I'm trying to find the optimal build that is separate from grim long, but preserves its explosiveness. Here is the build I've been currently using for the past 2 months. Here are the notable changes that are different from most conventional pitch long builds:

lack of imperial seal
inclusion of windfall
lack of 2nd tendrils
inclusion of the 12th land

I've had some mixed results lately, but would like some input on the validity of the inclusions I've made. Let me know what you guys think.

// Lands
    1  Badlands
    2  Bloodstained Mire
    1  Island
    4  Polluted Delta
    1  Swamp
    1  Tolarian Academy
    2  Underground Sea

// Spells
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Black Lotus
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Cabal Ritual
    1  Chain of Vapor
    4  Dark Ritual
    1  Demonic Tutor
    4  Force of Will
    3  Grim Tutor
    1  Hurkyl's Recall
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Memory Jar
    1  Mind's Desire
    2  Misdirection
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Necropotence
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Tendrils of Agony
    1  Time Walk
    1  Timetwister
    1  Tinker
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Wheel of Fortune
    1  Windfall
    1  Yawgmoth's Bargain
    1  Yawgmoth's Will

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1  Bayou
SB: 4  Duress
SB: 2  Empty the Warrens
SB: 2  Planar Void
SB: 2  Thrashing Wumpus
SB: 3  Xantid Swarm

[Sextiger]

I think you really need a second maindeck win condition. There is a lot of times where you can't find your other copy of tendrils or it gets removed from the game somehow. 

[someone_unimportan]

I played PL for a little while with 1 MD Tendrils, and never really had trouble with finding it/getting it removed. There were times that it annoyed me because it was in my hand while I was trying to Jar or had Necro out, but those don't  happen often enough. If you have a lot of Hide/Seek fish in your meta, though, you should probably play more Tendrils.

[ErkBek]

Having 1 vs. 2 Tendrils shouldn't really be able extract effects since that is rarely ever a problem. Playing 2 tendrils means you are much more likely to hit one off a draw7 and thus reduces your reliance on Yawgmoth's Will. I think since you are running wheel, jar, tinker, twister, and windfall as draw7's you should run a second tendrils over a 3rd Grim Tutor or over the windfall.

[p0ps]

Since your decklist seems to be more focused on Draw 7, i suggest you to run Simian Spirit Guides. As 2 ofs, their mox-like ability permits a lot of 1rst turn Draw 7 (which is insane btw). 11 Lands would be enough with those primates and 4th Cabal Ritual is probably worst than 2nd Spirit Guide so...

-1 Land
-1 Cabal Ritual

+2 Simian Spirit Guides

By doing these above changes, you get a more Grim Long approach with a high percentage of 1rst turn Draw 7.

Note : Not focusing on Draw7s (not playing SSG) would auto-exclude Windfall which's only good really early (or pitched to a Fow)...

[meadbert]

SSG also acts as a second win condition if you can pull of the infinite Time Walk engine.

Street Wraith also works.

[ErkBek]

SSG also acts as a second win condition if you can pull of the infinite Time Walk engine.

Street Wraith also works.

You lose the infinite walk combo when you don't have regrowth.

I agree 100% with pOps about adding some SSGs for the Draw7 boost.

[p0ps]

Street Wraith also works.

No it doesn't. Street Wraith simply sucked in my testings. Maibe people will have different opinions, but Pitch Long is already hard enough to play without adding a Wraith factor that simply looses more life to matchups like Ichorid.

The only point I could see Street Wraith kicking balls would be if you had no more good cards to add in your 60 cards deck. We are not short of those in Vintage.

[diopter]

Street Wraith also works.

No it doesn't. Street Wraith simply sucked in my testings. Maibe people will have different opinions, but Pitch Long is already hard enough to play without adding a Wraith factor that simply looses more life to matchups like Ichorid.

The only point I could see Street Wraith kicking balls would be if you had no more good cards to add in your 60 cards deck. We are not short of those in Vintage.

My testing is completely opposite of yours. I don't know what you mean by "good" cards but I don't really consider some cards in combo to be as good as others - Windfall being the best example, but also stuff like Cabal Rit #4 and Spirit Guides in general. Street Wraith has let me cut many cards I have been finding suboptimal in Pitch Long.

[Gekoratel]

Street Wraith has let me cut many cards I have been finding suboptimal in Pitch Long.

I know this has been echoed by a lot of people in the past but doesn't adding Street Wraith to the deck make mulliganing decisions even more complex.  This is already one of the harder choices associated with Long so adding another layer of difficulty seems unwanted unless it is visibly improving the deck.

I was wondering what cards you cut from Pitch to run 4 Street Wraith?  You need to keep a blue count high enough to support Force so I've found it tricky to make cuts in the past.  I know some cards are weaker than others in the deck but you cant go cutting blue cards to aggressively in this deck unlike Grim Long where it doesn't matter.  I know Street Wraith makes it so your effectively running a 56 card deck so maybe the blue count can go down 1-2 cards.

BTW has anyone been testing Pact of Negation over Misdirection and if so what were your results?

[diopter]

Street Wraith has let me cut many cards I have been finding suboptimal in Pitch Long.

I know this has been echoed by a lot of people in the past but doesn't adding Street Wraith to the deck make mulliganing decisions even more complex.  This is already one of the harder choices associated with Long so adding another layer of difficulty seems unwanted unless it is visibly improving the deck.

I was wondering what cards you cut from Pitch to run 4 Street Wraith?  You need to keep a blue count high enough to support Force so I've found it tricky to make cuts in the past.  I know some cards are weaker than others in the deck but you cant go cutting blue cards to aggressively in this deck unlike Grim Long where it doesn't matter.  I know Street Wraith makes it so your effectively running a 56 card deck so maybe the blue count can go down 1-2 cards.

BTW has anyone been testing Pact of Negation over Misdirection and if so what were your results?

I'll get to the Wraith issue later when I have time.

Straight substitution of Pact for MisD (I'm running a list with 2-3 Pacts) has been pretty good. In compensates for having to cut some blue cards (which I've sadly had to do) - more importantly though it gives you a higher percentage of protected wins even when you mulligan.

[Methuselahn]

Great post Ici Li.  I was hoping another pitch long thread would go up soon.

With recent developments, I'd agree that PL is one of the top decks right now.  It's one of the few decks that can outrace Ichorid, and it's one of the best options available.

There's been talk of Street Wraith and Pact of Negation.  I'm not sure about Wraith, but I haven't liked Pact of Negation in testing.  You want to build up a large Will and win with Long, and Pacts don't let you do this.

[Nantuko]

How you play this deck in a Stax/drain metagame???

Is misdirection better than duress maindeck???

[Moxlotus]

How you play this deck in a Stax/drain metagame???

Is misdirection better than duress maindeck???

If you play Forces, you play Misdirections.  If you want to play Duress, then you don't play Forces.  Force and Duress can't work together in this deck.

[Nantuko]

Hi,
I love this deck but after reading the old PL post all of you say that the gifts matchup its so bad,and its possible that gifts its the deck that dominate more metagames,so what is the most important reason to play this deck???

Thanks

[Cross]

How you play this deck in a Stax/drain metagame???

Is misdirection better than duress maindeck???

If you play Forces, you play Misdirections.  If you want to play Duress, then you don't play Forces.  Force and Duress can't work together in this deck.

I really have a hard time believing this. I've tested this plenty with duress over misd and it runs fine.

[molestake]

I expect the Ichorid matchup to be really important once FS is legal. Your game 2 vs Ichorid should be pretty strong if you're on the play, even without specific hate cards (resolving a draw 7 on the play to make them lose their Bazaar seems good.) I read in a Menendian article that game 2 for Ichorid is about seeing what hate cards you need to answer game 3, so maybe not boarding in anything is the right play. Is 2 Planar Void right for the SB? I prefer Crypt and Leyline because of the Control Slaver match, and 2 seems an odd number. A 2/2 split would let you bring in Tormod's Crypt game 2 and then Planar Void game 3. Hopefully they won't have Pithing Needle AND Chain of Vapor if they saw Crypt but not an enchantment game 2. You could also do Planar Void game 2 and add Tormod's Crypt game 3.

Suggested sideboard:
+2 Tormod's Crypt
-2 Thrashing Wumpus

I was going to post a suggested sideboarding strategy for Ichorid but I'm not sure what to board out on the play. On the draw you bring out some Draw 7s, especially Windfall since Ichorid doesn't usually have a big hand. Suggestions?

[Moxlotus]

How you play this deck in a Stax/drain metagame???

Is misdirection better than duress maindeck???

If you play Forces, you play Misdirections.  If you want to play Duress, then you don't play Forces.  Force and Duress can't work together in this deck.

I really have a hard time believing this. I've tested this plenty with duress over misd and it runs fine.

That's odd.  Of course, you don't like Necropotence in decks with 4 Dark Rituals, so our testing is already completely different.  We originally tried Duress over MisD, but they were quickly cut because we would rather just have pitch spells so we don't have to spend a turn or a mana casting Duress. The disruption package gives different strengths to different bombs.  Force/MisD helps Draw7s while Duress helps Tutors.  If you cut MisD, your draw7s get worse. If we're willing to spend a turn casting Duress and focus on tutors, then why are we clogging up other slots with Force? 

[Nantuko]

After testing duress and misdirection i think misdirection is better,because you not spend 1 turn in cast duress and you can go on turn one with protection.
But its difficult to me not side out blue cards in the 2/3 match.

[Cross]

How you play this deck in a Stax/drain metagame???

Is misdirection better than duress maindeck???

If you play Forces, you play Misdirections.  If you want to play Duress, then you don't play Forces.  Force and Duress can't work together in this deck.

I really have a hard time believing this. I've tested this plenty with duress over misd and it runs fine.

That's odd.  Of course, you don't like Necropotence in decks with 4 Dark Rituals, so our testing is already completely different.  We originally tried Duress over MisD, but they were quickly cut because we would rather just have pitch spells so we don't have to spend a turn or a mana casting Duress. The disruption package gives different strengths to different bombs.  Force/MisD helps Draw7s while Duress helps Tutors.  If you cut MisD, your draw7s get worse. If we're willing to spend a turn casting Duress and focus on tutors, then why are we clogging up other slots with Force? 

Duress and Misd aside, cutting force just seems incorrect. With either configuration you have more than enough blue to support force. Force just seems intricate to the deck to me.

[Moxlotus]

How you play this deck in a Stax/drain metagame???

Is misdirection better than duress maindeck???

If you play Forces, you play Misdirections.  If you want to play Duress, then you don't play Forces.  Force and Duress can't work together in this deck.

I really have a hard time believing this. I've tested this plenty with duress over misd and it runs fine.

That's odd.  Of course, you don't like Necropotence in decks with 4 Dark Rituals, so our testing is already completely different.  We originally tried Duress over MisD, but they were quickly cut because we would rather just have pitch spells so we don't have to spend a turn or a mana casting Duress. The disruption package gives different strengths to different bombs.  Force/MisD helps Draw7s while Duress helps Tutors.  If you cut MisD, your draw7s get worse. If we're willing to spend a turn casting Duress and focus on tutors, then why are we clogging up other slots with Force? 

Duress and Misd aside, cutting force just seems incorrect. With either configuration you have more than enough blue to support force. Force just seems intricate to the deck to me.

Eric Becker: Top 4 split in 48? person tournament
UBR Grim Long
Mana 30
1 Academy
4 Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
2 Usea
1 Swamp
1 Island (11 lands)
5 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Peal
1 Vault
1 Crypt
1 Ring
1 LED (11 artifacts)
4 Dark Rit
2 Red Spirit Guide
2 Cabal Rit

Protection 7
4 Duress
2 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Kill 2
2 Tendrils

Business 21
4 Brainstorm
3 Grim Tutor
1 DT
1 VT
1 MT
1 Iseal
1 Ancestral
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Yawg Will
1 Desire
1 Necro
1 Bargain
1 Time Walk

SB
1 Volcanic
4 Pryoblast
2 Extripate
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Planar Void
2 Massacre
1 Island
1 Chain of Vapor

13 blue cards in the Duress version.  You'd have to cut 4 non blue spells to get 17 spells for force.  I don't think you'd be able to cut 4 non blue spells.  And if you could, I don't think it would be worth it.  You'll be cutting bombs or bounce. 

[Cross]

Well in that particular list it seems like you're overcompensating with bounce because of the lack of force of will. Rebuild is barely playable, unless you're in a heavy stax environment, so the inclusion of two is suspect. Also suspect is the inclusion of simian guides.

When I am talking about pitchlong and the inclusion of force I am referring to something similar to the decklist at the beginning of the thread. In a decklist like that force of will just seems like a core part of the deck, regardless of the presence of Misd.

[Moxlotus]

Well in that particular list it seems like you're overcompensating with bounce because of the lack of force of will. Rebuild is barely playable, unless you're in a heavy stax environment, so the inclusion of two is suspect. Also suspect is the inclusion of simian guides.

When I am talking about pitchlong and the inclusion of force I am referring to something similar to the decklist at the beginning of the thread. In a decklist like that force of will just seems like a core part of the deck, regardless of the presence of Misd.

Of course Force seems like a core of the deck originally posted.  It goes to show what I've been saying--each disruption package is different and needs to have the decks built around them.  The first list looks like it is built great for the Pitch disruption, while Becker's list is built for the Duress version.  The point I'm making is that you can't just cut MisD and add Duress and expect the deck to work properly--you can't because for the deck to be optimal you have to built it around the disruption package and how it interacts with the rest of your deck.

It doesn't take a genius to think of the idea of cutting MisD for Duress.  The deck has been out for what, almost a year?  I'm sure lots of people have tried it.  There is a reason that the deck has been winning with either the Duress package or the Pitch package in the main.  Now, depending on what you expect to face there might be a good reason to have the other one in the board. 

[Gekoratel]

Well in that particular list it seems like you're overcompensating with bounce because of the lack of force of will. Rebuild is barely playable, unless you're in a heavy stax environment, so the inclusion of two is suspect. Also suspect is the inclusion of simian guides.

I know from talking to Becker that he was tuning this deck for a format that was heavy with Stax and with very little Fish.  In an open/unknown metagame you would only run 1 mass artifact bounce spell and 1 Chain of Vapor.  This leaves you with an extra slot for 1 more threat card like Infernal Contract or Windfall.  Also I'm not sure why you think the inclusion of SSG is odd because GL has been running ESG for a long time and no one thought it was that peculiar.  In my list of UBr Grim Long I have -1 Tendrils +1 Empty.  The 2 SSG's make casting Empty and Wheel easier in a deck that would normally only have 9 sources to cast it.

When I am talking about pitchlong and the inclusion of force I am referring to something similar to the decklist at the beginning of the thread. In a decklist like that force of will just seems like a core part of the deck, regardless of the presence of Misd.

I agree that Force is part of the core of PL but I also think that Misdirection is as well.  I would categorize a deck with Force and MisD as Pitch but a deck with Force and Duress as TPS.

[Cross]

Well in that particular list it seems like you're overcompensating with bounce because of the lack of force of will. Rebuild is barely playable, unless you're in a heavy stax environment, so the inclusion of two is suspect. Also suspect is the inclusion of simian guides.

When I am talking about pitchlong and the inclusion of force I am referring to something similar to the decklist at the beginning of the thread. In a decklist like that force of will just seems like a core part of the deck, regardless of the presence of Misd.

Of course Force seems like a core of the deck originally posted.  It goes to show what I've been saying--each disruption package is different and needs to have the decks built around them.  The first list looks like it is built great for the Pitch disruption, while Becker's list is built for the Duress version.  The point I'm making is that you can't just cut MisD and add Duress and expect the deck to work properly--you can't because for the deck to be optimal you have to built it around the disruption package and how it interacts with the rest of your deck.

It doesn't take a genius to think of the idea of cutting MisD for Duress.  The deck has been out for what, almost a year?  I'm sure lots of people have tried it.  There is a reason that the deck has been winning with either the Duress package or the Pitch package in the main.  Now, depending on what you expect to face there might be a good reason to have the other one in the board. 

So, in reference to the original list, do you agree or disagree with your statement on May 6th that force and duress can't work together? It seems like your saying that either Misd and duress work depending on the meta regardless of force. Which is really my argument. Not running FoW in New England, to me, seems like a giant mistake, regardless of the presence of duress and Misd.

Even if your meta is stax heavy I'd be quite worried about things like stacked spheres of resistance or something similar that you would have to answer with force or lose the game, or things that are more annoying like enchantments that you can't even bounce. More importantly you don't have to fetch any lands out against stax to duress them, just to make sure they don't have chalice or something stupid, and then leave yourself open to strip effects.

Well in that particular list it seems like you're overcompensating with bounce because of the lack of force of will. Rebuild is barely playable, unless you're in a heavy stax environment, so the inclusion of two is suspect. Also suspect is the inclusion of simian guides.

I know from talking to Becker that he was tuning this deck for a format that was heavy with Stax and with very little Fish.  In an open/unknown metagame you would only run 1 mass artifact bounce spell and 1 Chain of Vapor.  This leaves you with an extra slot for 1 more threat card like Infernal Contract or Windfall.  Also I'm not sure why you think the inclusion of SSG is odd because GL has been running ESG for a long time and no one thought it was that peculiar.  In my list of UBr Grim Long I have -1 Tendrils +1 Empty.  The 2 SSG's make casting Empty and Wheel easier in a deck that would normally only have 9 sources to cast it.

When I am talking about pitchlong and the inclusion of force I am referring to something similar to the decklist at the beginning of the thread. In a decklist like that force of will just seems like a core part of the deck, regardless of the presence of Misd.

I agree that Force is part of the core of PL but I also think that Misdirection is as well.  I would categorize a deck with Force and MisD as Pitch but a deck with Force and Duress as TPS.

Again it really depends on your meta. Here in new england, if I were to run ssg at all, it seems like a sideboard card to me, especially with only wheel main. I could see bringing it in against stax to combo with ETW, but again the only person playing stax around here consistantly is Ray (well Travis too, but it's tough to categorize his lists).

[Moxlotus]

So, in reference to the original list, do you agree or disagree with your statement on May 6th that force and duress can't work together? It seems like your saying that either Misd and duress work depending on the meta regardless of force. Which is really my argument

My statment is the maindeck can only really support one of the following disruption packages and work optimally:
4 Duress and 0 Force and 0 Duress
or
4 Force and 2/3 Misdirection and 0 Duress

I have done my best to explain how Duress and Force of Will cannot work optimally if they are both in the same deck.

[ErkBek]

I'll be starting a new thread on UBR Grim Long and why its the best deck I've ever played, after I finish graduation ceremonies this weekend. 

The reason for the 3 global bounce spells is not just because I expected stax to show, but its mostly to deal with Chalice @1 from stax, oath, ravager aggro, and chalice fish.

So, in reference to the original list, do you agree or disagree with your statement on May 6th that force and duress can't work together? It seems like your saying that either Misd and duress work depending on the meta regardless of force. Which is really my argument

My statment is the maindeck can only really support one of the following disruption packages and work optimally:
4 Duress and 0 Force and 0 Duress
or
4 Force and 2/3 Misdirection and 0 Duress

I have done my best to explain how Duress and Force of Will cannot work optimally if they are both in the same deck.

This is the conclusion I came to months ago. Honestly I feel that if you are running Duress + FoW in long, then you are just running TPS with 3 less lands.

[Cross]

I'll be starting a new thread on UBR Grim Long and why its the best deck I've ever played, after I finish graduation ceremonies this weekend. 

The reason for the 3 global bounce spells is not just because I expected stax to show, but its mostly to deal with Chalice @1 from stax, oath, ravager aggro, and chalice fish.

So, in reference to the original list, do you agree or disagree with your statement on May 6th that force and duress can't work together? It seems like your saying that either Misd and duress work depending on the meta regardless of force. Which is really my argument

My statment is the maindeck can only really support one of the following disruption packages and work optimally:
4 Duress and 0 Force and 0 Duress
or
4 Force and 2/3 Misdirection and 0 Duress

I have done my best to explain how Duress and Force of Will cannot work optimally if they are both in the same deck.

This is the conclusion I came to months ago. Honestly I feel that if you are running Duress + FoW in long, then you are just running TPS with 3 less lands.

I think you've proven my conclusions here. This is really a meta call; I would not expect to play against ravager aggro, oath or stax in the New England meta. We're talking about totally different magic environments. To say that one form of the deck is best might be true for your meta, but it seems completely backwards for mine and vice versa.

[ErkBek]

I think you've proven my conclusions here. This is really a meta call; I would not expect to play against ravager aggro, oath or stax in the New England meta. We're talking about totally different magic environments. To say that one form of the deck is best might be true for your meta, but it seems completely backwards for mine and vice versa.

UBR long is not a metagame deck, it has customizable slots for a metagame. With those customizable slots I ran 2 Rebuild x2. Let me speak before you make conclusions.

[Cross]

I think you've proven my conclusions here. This is really a meta call; I would not expect to play against ravager aggro, oath or stax in the New England meta. We're talking about totally different magic environments. To say that one form of the deck is best might be true for your meta, but it seems completely backwards for mine and vice versa.

UBR long is not a metagame deck, it has customizable slots for a metagame. With those customizable slots I ran 2 Rebuild x2. Let me speak before you make conclusions.

I'm not referring to your deck as a metagame deck, but rather the choice of not running force of will.

I look forward to your summary of the deck, as I think a number of people have made the same conclusion that red is playable in the main of variations of long.