Maindeck Burning Wish? Gifts pile scenario.

[meadbert]

I am still stuck back in 2006 land where Burning Wish was run over Tendrils of Agony in the main deck of Meandeck Gifts.
I have considering switching often and I keep a very careful eye out for scenarios where Tendrils would have won me the game while Burning Wish does not.

The other unusual and old school move I make is that I do not run Vamp Tutor.  I run a third Misdirection instead.

A few weeks ago I played a game against Cody where it appeared I should have won but because I ran Burning Wish and no maindeck LED, Dark Ritual or Tendrils I could not win.  I spent days analyzing the scenario and eventually concluded that the best split included Burning Wish!

Here are the notes from our boards:

Turn 1 Cody plays Warrens for eight tokens.
Turn 1 I play Volcanic->Sol Ring
Turn 2 Cody swings and maybe plays another land.
Turn 2 I play Underground and Black Lotus and pass:
Turn 3 Cody swings for eight again and passes. EOT I cast Gifts. Cody drains.  My hand is Misdirection and Mana Drain.  I have Black Lotus untapped.
Cody has one card in hand and is tapped out so unless he is holding Gush I can goldfish.
What should I do?

I am curious in hearing what other people would do given their decklists.

[someone_unimportan]

So . . . what exactly do you want to know? If there's a way to win with your decklist, or if Burning Wish cost you the game? because I can definitely think of some piles that win with a maindeck tendrils. I'm still thinking about the Burning Wish one though.

[LSD/Cruise]

My build has Tendrils Maindecked, with Burning Wish and Gorilla Shaman replacing Tinker and DSC, as well as 2 Dark Rituals over FoF and Mana Vault.

I would Mis-D that Mana Drain, pitching my own Drain, and Gifting for

Demonic Tutor
Dark Ritual
Recoup
Yawgs Will

They obviously wont give you Yawgs Will.

If they give you Demonic Tutor and Dark Rit, (excluding topdeck), you tap Sea for Ritual, tap Ring, sac Lotus for Blue, and Volc for BBBUUUR2, play with B1 Demonic Tutor for your 2nd Dark Ritual to keep that 8 mana which you play Recoup and Yawgs with one Black floating. When Yawg resolves, replay Lotus for UUU, and the two Rituals for BBBBBUUU. You then Spend three Blue and 1 Black for Gifts to get two moxes, which you play those Moxes with AABBBB floating (A=anything) which you spend to get for D-Tutor which finds Tendrils.

Recoup and D-Tutor would be to sac Lotus for BBB and tap Ring for BBB2. You then cast Demonic for Dark Rit with the same amount floating, but it's BBBB1. You Tap Volc for Red and Sea for Blue. You have URBBBB1 floating, and you play Recoup for Yawgs with B floating, From there, you use the B to make 5 Black with double Rituals, and replay Lotus for Blue so you have BBBBBUUUU floating. Since you have 9 mana, you spend all the Blue to Gift for 4 Moxes, then playing them to add to your storm and mana. You tap Moxes for mana, D-Tutor for Tendrils for 22 with 1 mana floating.   

Ritual and Recoup would be to tap sea for Black, which you play and then you play Ritual. Tap Volc and Ring for BBBR2 floating. Crack Lotus for UUU, and you have BBBUUUR2 floating. Spend R2UB for Yawgs and you still have UUBB floating. Replay Ritual for BBBBUUU floating. Crack lotus for Red so you have BBBBUUURRR floating. Spend RR to replay Recoup on D-Tutor. Replay Gifts with
BBUU floating for 4 moxes, then for Tendrils.

[meadbert]

I am not posting this to see what the best Gifts pile with my list is.  I think I know that after thinking about it for a few weeks.  I am more interested in what other lists can do in that situation.

LSD that is a clever win.  I never considered lists with multiple Dark Rituals but that certainly gets you the win.  There are a bunch of piles that win or have an 80% chance or higher of winning if you run LED and Ritual.

For instance if you run Vamp as well then I think you can Gifts for Demonic, Vamp, Mystical and Ancestral.  As long as your post Will Ancestral hits a Mana Source, a Brainstorm or a Chain of Vapor then you win. 

The first question is whether to use Misdirection or Drain to protect Gifts.  A second question is should I have even played Lotus the turn before.  I think playing Lotus was justified because if Gifts had been Forced then I would have wanted to Drain for the extra 5 mana.  Given that Gifts was Drained it makes more sense to use Misdirection.  Note that in the actual game I use Drain and then used Gifts to get something Terrible like Tinker, Time Walk, Recoup and Will.  Over the course of three turns I drew Chain of Vapor and then two Force of Wills and I lost.

Here is the best Gifts pile that I could come up with assuming I pitched Drain to Misdirection.

Assuming I kept my same main deck my Gifts pile then should have been:
Burning Wish
Ancestral Recall
Yawgmoth's Will
Recoup

Any Pile with Will is insane.
Ancestral and Burning Wish mean I can Ancestral. Then if I draw a mana source I can Burning Wish for Pyroclasm and Recoup Will the following turn. (which would have been Drain by Cody) If I do not draw mana then I crack lotus to Burning Wish for Pyroclasm and I must wait to Recoup Will, but at least I have 3 Business cards in my hand.

Ancestral and Recoup results in me most likely playing Ancestral twice and Pyroclasm once. (Assuming any of my top 4 cards are a mana source, Chain of Vapor or Tinker)


The best pile to give me is probably Recoup and Burning Wish.

In this case here is how it would have played out.

I top deck Chain.
I tap Lotus, Sol Ring and Volcanic for ruuu2.
I chain Sol Ring, sac Volcanic and chain a Warrens token. ruu2 floating. storm = 1
I replay Sol Ring. ruu1 floating storm = 2.
I play Recoup targeting Will. uu floating storm = 3
I tap Underground and Sol Ring to play Will. uu floating storm = 4
I chain Sol Ring. u floating storm = 5.
I replay Sol Ring. storm = 6
I play Black Lotus. storm = 7.
I play Volcanic.
I tap Lotus, Volcanic and Sol Ring for rrrr2, storm = 7
I Burning Wish for Warrens. rrr1 floating storm = 8.
I play Warrens for 18 tokens.

If I had not been lucky and top decked chain I still could have Recouped Will, played Ancestral and Burning Wished for Pyrclasm.

This is not as good as winning on the spot, but it is pretty good as it leaves me ahead 4-1 in card advantage.  Also if I were to add cards to the main the first card I would drop would be Misdirection #3 and one could argue that Misdirection was instrumental since it allows me to save Black Lotus.

[LSD/Cruise]

I am not posting this to see what the best Gifts pile with my list is.  I think I know that after thinking about it for a few weeks.  I am more interested in what other lists can do in that situation.

I liked the 2k6 lists. I honestly never really liked Tinker for some reason. I always liked winning with Tendrils for some reason.

LSD that is a clever win.  I never considered lists with multiple Dark Rituals but that certainly gets you the win.  There are a bunch of piles that win or have an 80% chance or higher of winning if you run LED and Ritual.

I'll be honest here. You dont need the 2nd Dark Ritual to win. When you play Demonic Tutor, you could've grabbed Mana Crypt instead. If you do this however, you will win with with exactly 20. With Ritual, it'd probably exceed to 22-24.

My lists from Menedian's old list with Tnker is

-1 Library of Alexandria
-1 Mana Vault
-1 Tinker
-1 Darksteel Colossus
-1 Fact or Fiction

+1 Underground Sea
+1 Burning Wish
+1 Gorilla Shaman
+2 Dark Ritual

For instance if you run Vamp as well then I think you can Gifts for Demonic, Vamp, Mystical and Ancestral.  As long as your post Will Ancestral hits a Mana Source, a Brainstorm or a Chain of Vapor then you win. 

I did consider Gifting for Vamp, but then I had to Gift for Tutors as well. What I want from my Gifts is acually mana. If they giveyou Mystical Tutor and Vampiric Tutor, only one Tutor will be effective Pre-Yawgs Will.

The first question is whether to use Misdirection or Drain to protect Gifts.  A second question is should I have even played Lotus the turn before.  I think playing Lotus was justified because if Gifts had been Forced then I would have wanted to Drain for the extra 5 mana.  Given that Gifts was Drained it makes more sense to use Misdirection.  Note that in the actual game I use Drain and then used Gifts to get something Terrible like Tinker, Time Walk, Recoup and Will.  Over the course of three turns I drew Chain of Vapor and then two Force of Wills and I lost.

Sol Ring, Lotus, Volc, and Sea is 7 mana. But then again, you probably won have enough mana to Time Walk again....

Here is the best Gifts pile that I could come up with assuming I pitched Drain to Misdirection.

Assuming I kept my same main deck my Gifts pile then should have been:
Burning Wish
Ancestral Recall
Yawgmoth's Will
Recoup

Any Pile with Will is insane.

I think I wouldve done the same thing if I was still playing the s26 build.

This is not as good as winning on the spot, but it is pretty good as it leaves me ahead 4-1 in card advantage.  Also if I were to add cards to the main the first card I would drop would be Misdirection #3 and one could argue that Misdirection was instrumental since it allows me to save Black Lotus.

I'd rather drop Mana Drain over the 3rd Mis-D. I'm growing to love the fact Pitch Counters are so awesome in a deck like this. You wil tap out early to play bombs anyway, why not protect them?

[meadbert]

I did consider Gifting for Vamp, but then I had to Gift for Tutors as well. What I want from my Gifts is acually mana. If they giveyou Mystical Tutor and Vampiric Tutor, only one Tutor will be effective Pre-Yawgs Will.

I think you can use use Volcanic Island to Mystical for Yawg Will during your upkeep.  Then you draw Yawg Will.  During your main phase you:
Sac Lotus for BBB, storm = 1
Vamp for LED BB, storm = 2
Tap Sol Ring and play Yawg Will B, storm = 3
Tap Underground Sea to play Ancestral Recall.  B, storm = 4
You drew LED and two other cards.  If your other two cards include any mana source, Chain of Vapor, Rebuild, Tendrils of Agony, Gifts Ungiven, Force of Will+Blue, Merchant Scroll+Blue, or Brainstorm then you win.

With Mana/Chain of Vapor:
Play other mana and tap for 1 B1, storm = 4.
Play Lotus for BLUE.  BUUU1, storm = 5
Play LED for black.  BBBBUUU1, storm = 6
Mystical for nothing, BBBBUU1 storm = 7
Vamp for nothing BBBUU1, storm = 8.
Demonic for Tendrils BBUU, storm = 9.
Tendrils for the win.

If you draw Tendrils you can Demonic for Mana Crypt.

If you draw Brainstorm then you can Vamp for Mana Crypt, Brainstorm into Mana Crypt and win that way.

If you draw into Rebuild then you have to play a game with the Stack where you play LED and then Cycle Rebuild.  With Rebuild's Cycle on the stack you crack LED.  Once LED resolves you Vamp for Mana Crypt and you win from there.

If you draw Gifts you can Gifts for 4 Moxen.  Then you play two Moxen.  You are down 2 mana but there is no need to Vamp and Mystical for nothing.

If you draw Force of Will and a Blue card then you can play Black Lotus and crack for blue.  Then play LED, Force LED by pitching the blue card and then Drain Force.
On your second main phase crack LED for black giving you BBB5 which is enough to Demonic for Tendrils. 

If you draw Scroll and a Blue card then you can actually play Black Lotus with b floating.  Crack Lotus for U floating BUUU.  Scroll for Force of Will, UU.  Then play LED, Forcing LED and Draining Force.  Again you get BBB5 on second main phase and win.

Anyway depending on your exact list this split has a very high chance of winning.  I would guess it is well over 90%.  You could be super unlucky and get double Mana Drain

Note that if Force is in your graveyard (and it might have been in mine) then the only two cards you can draw and not win with are if you get really unlucky and topdeck DSC and Recoup.

[meadbert]

LSD that is a clever win.  I never considered lists with multiple Dark Rituals but that certainly gets you the win.  There are a bunch of piles that win or have an 80% chance or higher of winning if you run LED and Ritual.

I'll be honest here. You dont need the 2nd Dark Ritual to win. When you play Demonic Tutor, you could've grabbed Mana Crypt instead. If you do this however, you will win with with exactly 20. With Ritual, it'd probably exceed to 22-24.


I'd rather drop Mana Drain over the 3rd Mis-D. I'm growing to love the fact Pitch Counters are so awesome in a deck like this. You wil tap out early to play bombs anyway, why not protect them?

I think you do need the second Dark Ritual.  If your Gifts pile is Recoup, Yawgmoth's Will, Demonic Tutor and Dark Ritual then your opponent could give you Recoup and Demonic Tutor.
In this case you can use Black Lotus and your 4 permanent mana sources to generate 7 mana.  You then tutor for Mana Crypt so you are still at 7 mana.  You Recoup Will with bb floating.  Ritual and Lotus get you up to 7 mana.  Here is where it gets hairy.
You storm count is (Tutor,Crypt,Recoup,Willl,Lotus,Ritual)=6.  You still need to play 4 more spells to win.  This means you must make use of Gifts, but you must use Gifts in a manner that only loses you 1 mana.  For this to happen you must find three mana sources that generate two mana.  Mana Vault is obvious.  Academy or Chain of Vapor work if you get two more artifacts.  Unfortunately they do not work together.

Instead supposed we go back and Demonic Tutor for Academy instead of Mana Crypt.  This leaves nothing floating post Yawg Will.

Then we can replay Black Lotus, Tap Academy for UU, sac Lotus for black and play Dark Ritual.
This leaves BBBBBUU floating.  Now we hit another snag.  We need to Gifts again but what do we float?  Chain of Vapor seems like a nice option for the Gifts pile.  If we float BBU then we can Gifts for Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Chain of Vapor and Mox Jet.  This works great from a mana quantity standpoint, but if they give us any split without Mox Jet we will not be able to Demonic Tutor for Tendrils.  In order to Demonic Tutor for Tendrils we must float BBB.  We can get Mana Crypt and Mana Vault but now what?  If we add two moxes then we get those and lack the mana to Tutor for Tendrils.  We can add Chain of Vapor and Mox Sapphire but Chain is worthless without Sapphire.

I might have made a mistake in here, but it seems to me that LED or a second Dark Ritual would be necessary to follow this sort of route to victory.

Now, if only I could draw these conclusions in the one minute of time I have to make my game time decisions instead of it taking me a week to think about it.