Vintage: How to start?

[ACME_Myst]

I also posted this thread @ SCG, but I figured I'd also post it here to get some more and different responses from people.

Here's my situation:
I've been playing Legacy for some time, but lately I've also become very interested in Vintage. I've proxied some decks up, loaded some into MWS, and had a good time with them. I'm very much enjoying the high powerlevel, and the big broken goodness.

The problem is, I live in Holland. This means: 0-proxy tournaments. This wouldn't really be a problem if I got a few thousand euro's to spend, but I don't (being a student and all). So, my question to you, the Vintage community, is this: What is an effective way to start playing Vintage at a competative level? Now, I know that some of the first responses will be something like "You can't play competative Vintage without power." or "If you want to play Vintage, you will have to invest some money.". But yeah, I figured that one out by now. What I do want to hear is, for example, what cards to buy.

Should I buy Drains/Shops/Bazaars first, or should I buy like a cheaper Mox and a Recall? What is the best place to buy power/semi-power? What decks can be made semi-budget, but still be somewhat playable in a 'good' metagame?

Obviously, the answer to that last question would be Fish, but I'm enjoying the high powerlevel of the format, and if I wanted to play Fish I might as well just play Legacy Threshold.

The kind of deck I'd like to play should be something like combo/control, with a high play skill factor involved. I don't want to invest that kind of money into something that get's boring and can be played on autopilot after two weeks.  I find decks like Pitchlong and Gifts are very fun to play. Since Long style decks probably can't be made without fullpower, I came up with this idea:

//lands (15)
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
2 island
1 snow-covered island
3 underground sea
2 volcanic island
1 tolarian academy

//creatures (1)
1 darksteel colossus

//stuff (44)
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
1 mana crypt
1 lotus petal
1 chrome mox
1 black lotus
4 dark ritual

4 force of will
3 misdirection
4 mana drain
1 chain of vapor
1 echoing truth
1 hurkyl's recall

4 brainstorm
4 merchant scroll
4 gifts ungiven
1 fact or fiction
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 mystical tutor

1 tinker
1 recoup
1 yawgmoth's will
1 tendrils of agony

That's the idea. I would first trade and buy myself towards that decklist with the drains, but without the lotus. That should at least give me a list that is playable. After that, getting the lotus would be priority number one. After the lotus, the next piece of power should be Ancestral i guess. When I have all that, I can slowly start buying moxen to add to that list, and finally buy a Walk.

So, some more concrete questions:
- Do you find this kind of deck a good idea if you want to start playing Vintage?
- Any comments on the decklist? I know it's just a rough draft, but at least it goldfishes okay.
- Does the order of buying into power make sense if I would play this kind of deck? Or would you rather buy lotus before drains, or recall before lotus, etc?

I think you get the picture . Any and all hints are usefull !

[Zherbus]

It really depends on how developed Holland is. Are they an experienced environment where you're going to be fighting against higher-powered (IE FASTER) level combo decks? They don't run this if you want to do the best, run Fish on a limited card pool. Are they a neophyte metagame? Is it basically Extended decks with Sol Ring? Then, this will likely be okay.

[The Chosen One]

It really depends on how developed Holland is. Are they an experienced environment where you're going to be fighting against higher-powered (IE FASTER) level combo decks? They don't run this if you want to do the best, run Fish on a limited card pool. Are they a neophyte metagame? Is it basically Extended decks with Sol Ring? Then, this will likely be okay.

I back this up. If you would be playing against powered decks, fish would be a strong choice. Aside from bazzaar of baghdad being pricey, ichorid may be an option for you as well

[ACME_Myst]

Well, I'm not really into Vintage yet here, so I have no idea about the metagame. I just looked up some recent top8's, and it's not that surprising. Due to the nature of non-proxy, it's mostly Fish vs fully-powered decks. It's defeniatly not Extended with Sol Ring. The fullpowered decks of the top8 I have in front of me right now are: Control Slaver, Gifts and Uba Stax.

I understand that in such a metagame, the budget choice that would perform great is Fish. Like I said however, you can play that in Legacy as well. So, to re-formulate my question: What is the best way to go above "Fish budget" and start creating "real" decks? Is it like I'm planning now, creating a decklist, and slowly working your way into fullpower? Or should you first get power, and only make a deck when you have that complete?  Obviously, in the first case, you will be playing with a sub-par deck for some period.

Oh, and about Ichorid: I guess that can be cleared up by quoting myself:

with a high play skill factor involved. I don't want to invest that kind of money into something that get's boring and can be played on autopilot after two weeks.

I hope that clears things up a bit.

[Zherbus]

My instincts might tell me to play a Fish deck that wins the mirror then. I'm not a Fish-guy myself, but if you can play with the tools to beat those powered decks and win the mirror, you may have an effective metagame deck on your hand. Also, are these Top 8's out 20 players? Or 100 players? That makes a difference. In the first, you would see 40% of the metagame and be able to make a good decision. In the second, you have no idea because those people could have bested 6 swiss rounds of absolute trash decks.

[The Chosen One]

Well, I'm not really into Vintage yet here, so I have no idea about the metagame. I just looked up some recent top8's, and it's not that surprising. Due to the nature of non-proxy, it's mostly Fish vs fully-powered decks. It's defeniatly not Extended with Sol Ring. The fullpowered decks of the top8 I have in front of me right now are: Control Slaver, Gifts and Uba Stax.

I understand that in such a metagame, the budget choice that would perform great is Fish. Like I said however, you can play that in Legacy as well. So, to re-formulate my question: What is the best way to go above "Fish budget" and start creating "real" decks? Is it like I'm planning now, creating a decklist, and slowly working your way into fullpower? Or should you first get power, and only make a deck when you have that complete?  Obviously, in the first case, you will be playing with a sub-par deck for some period.

Oh, and about Ichorid: I guess that can be cleared up by quoting myself:

with a high play skill factor involved. I don't want to invest that kind of money into something that get's boring and can be played on autopilot after two weeks.

I hope that clears things up a bit.

I would not classify fish as not being a real deck- if you are playing against fully powered versions of slaver and gifts, fish is your best option to win against these decks. You would be playing with cards that are not used in legacy(or you should be at least if you expect to win). Fish has a high skill level to play properly,and especially to build without any power at all. U/g/w threshold(Birdshit) may be an option for you also. Starting with fish running no power and performing well will win you the power cards(or money to buy them with), so it really is the best means to get to where you are trying to go. Running a deck that would be ALOT better with power will not get you anywhere IMO

[Irenicus]

I am from Germany and had similar problems.

First off all, I wouldn't buy any pricy cards, before I haven't played in a tournament at all. The way to go for me, was that I played TMWA (TheMountainsWinAgain) for about 10 months, because it was/is one of the cheapiest unpowered decs. Playing T1 for some time really helped me understanding the format and showed me that this was/is the "right" format for me.
After that I bought the complete P9 in about 4 months (I have to say, that I just (both meanings) had the money).

I think that without having that much money, there isn't any better way than playing fish-style decs at the beginning. After that, I would try to get P9 first. Btw by playing in tournaments you get some knowledge about prices, make some friends who can help you with some cards and really get to know wether you want to play T1 or not (even if you play unpowered...).

[rmn]

Have you considered Oath?  Even an unpowered build would allow you to use lots of the good disruption Fish runs, while you get a nifty combo finish and a very good game against randomness.  It is also a deck that will benefit from slowly adding power as you get it, and then once your set is complete you can move on to Gifts etc.

[Korhil]

Have you considered Oath?

Oath is a reasonable deck unpowered.

I think T1 is harder to get into now that it use to be about 5 years ago. When I started taking T1 seriously, Keeper still existed. So 'cheap to build' decks like Stompy, Sui, and Sligh were viable. I built those first and went from there.
I managed to obtain Drains fairly easily, and started playing some FEB deck with Drains and FOW for a while.
I later obtained the masks for Vengeur Masqué because I always loved survival decks (be damned how good they ever really are/were).
I kept playing that until I stopped being a student.
Now I own everything except Shops and Grims, so I pretty much play what I want

As a student, T1 is a pretty hard format to get into.

[Aardshark]

Have you considered Oath? 

In a similar vain, the new hulk-flash combos might also be acceptable on a budget.  You'd miss the acceleration of the moxen and lotus and the awesomeness of recall, but at least you're not relying on 0 cc for storm (unlike tendrils decks). The post-future sight legacy builds could conceivably be strong enough to compete in a non-proxy vintage meta.  Or you could try taking a more controlish oath-like approach.  You have a wide disruption suite to choose from including duress, fow, daze, and misdiraction--also none of the symetrical hosers (chalice, null rod, arcane lab, etc.) would hurt you.   

Just an idea if you like combo.

[ACME_Myst]

Wow, lot's of responses already . I'll try to comment on each one as good as possible:

My instincts might tell me to play a Fish deck that wins the mirror then. I'm not a Fish-guy myself, but if you can play with the tools to beat those powered decks and win the mirror, you may have an effective metagame deck on your hand. Also, are these Top 8's out 20 players? Or 100 players? That makes a difference. In the first, you would see 40% of the metagame and be able to make a good decision. In the second, you have no idea because those people could have bested 6 swiss rounds of absolute trash decks.

Those were top8's out of around 30-35 player tournaments. Obviously, there will probably be some jank in these tournaments, but i guess the majority plays established decks.

I would not classify fish as not being a real deck- if you are playing against fully powered versions of slaver and gifts, fish is your best option to win against these decks. You would be playing with cards that are not used in legacy(or you should be at least if you expect to win). Fish has a high skill level to play properly,and especially to build without any power at all. U/g/w threshold(Birdshit) may be an option for you also. Starting with fish running no power and performing well will win you the power cards(or money to buy them with), so it really is the best means to get to where you are trying to go. Running a deck that would be ALOT better with power will not get you anywhere IMO

I understand Fish is a real deck, and has established itself as a complete archetype. At the moment though, I was lacking a better way to put it, hence why I said 'Fish vs real decks'. The problem I have against it though, is that although skill-intensive, I don't really like aggro-control as an archetype. Just not my thing I suppose.

Have you considered Oath?  Even an unpowered build would allow you to use lots of the good disruption Fish runs, while you get a nifty combo finish and a very good game against randomness.  It is also a deck that will benefit from slowly adding power as you get it, and then once your set is complete you can move on to Gifts etc.

Yes, I have considered it. The way I look at Oath however, is you play an enchantment for 2 mana, counter some stuff, and beat down with fatty's. If you don't have that enchantment, you dig until you find it. I feel it's a little to straightforward and simpleminded.

Have you considered Oath? 

In a similar vain, the new hulk-flash combos might also be acceptable on a budget.  You'd miss the acceleration of the moxen and lotus and the awesomeness of recall, but at least you're not relying on 0 cc for storm (unlike tendrils decks). The post-future sight legacy builds could conceivably be strong enough to compete in a non-proxy vintage meta.  Or you could try taking a more controlish oath-like approach.  You have a wide disruption suite to choose from including duress, fow, daze, and misdiraction--also none of the symetrical hosers (chalice, null rod, arcane lab, etc.) would hurt you.   

Just an idea if you like combo.

About Flash: see Oath. I also played it in Legacy for a couple of weeks, but just gave up on it because it was way to boring. It's a good deck (if not the best, in Legacy), but I want to enjoy the game, not play a 2CC spell and win.

About needing 0CC for storm: the list posted on the top of this page actually works unbelievably well, though I made some minor changes (-C. Mox, -E. Truth, -Strand, +3 Island). I find I can reliably goldfish that list turn 3-4 with protection. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's that good without power, but playing rituals instead of moxen does get you a long way in building storm and mana to combo out. I do feel the deck can't do without Lotus though. Also, rituals allow you another way to cast turn 2 gifts.

I guess I'm just being stubborn and want to play a deck like that . So, here's a question to all the Gifts players out there: What do you feel is the most important piece of power in Meandeck Gifts? If you would have to build the deck with one piece of power, what would you never cut? Without Recall, you miss your draw engine, but without Lotus, you lose the ability to combo out early.


A friend of me is also planning on the same thing, building CS with just the drains and 1-2 pieces of power, and then slowly powering up from there. He will probably be my foremost opponent, since all the other members of my team just want to stick to Legacy for now.

[acidfreak]

That deck of yours is remarkably close to my unpowered gifts deck:

3 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
4 underground sea
2 volcanic island
3 city of brass
1 island
1 swamp
1 strip mine

1 darksteel colossus

1 lotus petal
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
1 grim monolith
4 dark ritual
2 cabal ritual

4 force of will
3 mana drain
1 chain of vapor

4 brainstorm
4 gifts ungiven
2 merchant scroll
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 tinker
1 recoup
1 yawgmoth's will
1 yawgmoth's bargain
1 necropotence
1 tendrils of agony

This deck is not that bad actually as you can get random turn 1/2/3 wins on the back of your (non-power9) brokenness, but you can't always protect your kill and it's too inconsistent (as in sometimes you get really crappy hands) to take it to a tournament imo.
If i had a single black lotus than i'd play it on a tournament, that makes a huge difference with gifts.

(And i'm from Belgium, and i'm getting into type 1 by slowly assembling this deck, at my third mana drain now  . For now i just play goblins in tournament, from what i've seen stax and slaver are quite popular here, and goblins is cheap and pretty decent against those decks (and fish is almost a bye)).

[Aardshark]

I guess I'm just being stubborn and want to play a deck like that . So, here's a question to all the Gifts players out there: What do you feel is the most important piece of power in Meandeck Gifts? If you would have to build the deck with one piece of power, what would you never cut? Without Recall, you miss your draw engine, but without Lotus, you lose the ability to combo out early.

Honestly, if you enjoy this deck and want to explore its potential under budget constraints -- then go for it!  The point of this game is to have fun (right?).  You'll be playing david versus the fully powered goliaths--which can be cool.  Even if you don't top 8 all the time (I'm not saying you won't), a winning record against such decks is a sort of victory in itself. 

A few questions/comments:

1) I am a long player (so I may be biased), but I like Acidfreak's inclusion of cabal ritual.  Having at least 1 gives you another accelerant to gifts for, and between gifts, fetches and rituals you'll often get threshhold.  Similarly, you might consider Lion's Eye Diamond as an accelerant to gifts for. 

2) do you already own drains? If so then awesome, but if not, I'm not sure if that's where I'd want to invested precious t1 $ if I was collecting power.  Don't get me wrong--drain is a great card and worthy of inclusion in your deck. But the consensus in the last several months seems to be that the t1 meta has shifted such that that drains are less of a bomb and less than optimal against many strategies (such as ichorid and long)--thus they are being included in less decks.  If I were you, I'd want to spend my $ on cards that will have the most impact on the greatest # of archetypes. For this reason...

3) If you buy power, buy lotus first.  It goes in (almost) every deck, and unlike moxen (which often play as off-color lands, especially in decks with low land counts), lotus goes a long way in just winning you the game in any archetype--even moreso in decks like gifts and long where lotsus is one of your most frequent tutor targets. 
HOWEVER--I know many non-proxy environments reserve part of the prize pool for underpowered decks.  You might consider this before you spend $500 only to cut yourself off from your best shot at prize $.

4) After lotus I'd buy recall, and then time walk--at least for the deck you want to play.  I know these are the three most expensive pieces (no coincidence), but these will be your most frequent tutor targets.  Merchant scroll is in meandeck gifts as a 4 of primarily to fetch ancestral recall, and time walk is a critical component of the recoup, will, tinker-->colosus gifts pile ftw.

[ACME_Myst]

Thanks

1) I also considered cabal ritual as a 1-of, though I wasn't really sure if it was worth it. It doesn't allow for a turn 2 gifts, and when I combo out I usually have enough mana. I don't think I'll ever run LED in this deck, mostly because my main opponent will be playing CS. Dropping your hand doesn't seem like a good way to keep your counters up :p.

2) Nope, I don't own anything expensive from this deck yet (except for mana crypt, but that doesn't really count when we're talking about these prices). As I said, until I'm ready to take this to a tournament, I'll be playing against CS most of the time. How important do you feel drains are in this matchup? I would say they're better here then vs ichorid or long.

3) Yes, that was my reasoning for buying lotus first as well. Also, once you got lotus, all the other pieces are only cheaper

Two more questions about the slaver matchup:

- How important is Tinker->DSC here? I feel ETW would be better, though without moxen, getting an early stormcount up can be rather difficult.
- If I'd be playing against lot's of CS, Stax and Fish, would a maindeck Fire/Ice cut it? Obviously it sounds ok, but I was wondering if anybody had tested this and what their results where.

[Methuselahn]

A broke student wanting to get into Vintage will have difficulties.  In my opinion, if you're going to commit to a hobby which requires practice and time investment, then you have to commit to spending some money as well.  With a smaller budget and wise investment purchases, you could build a deck to compete at the top tables.  Breaking into Vintage by borrowing or purchasing a set of Bazaars and Ichorid pieces is probably the best route to go right now. Something like this is what it takes to be a top deck with minimal investment, in a zero proxy environment.  Maybe fish or something other is your thing, or you really don't have any other option, but I'd really find a way to play Ichorid.

Whatever you decide, be sure to be aware of errata and/or the restricted list and any changes that may occur which could affect your purchaces.

 

EDIT: Oh yea, DONT BUY DRAINS.

[ACME_Myst]

Why wouldn't you buy drains?

I understand that the meta is shifting and drains will become worse than they were, but are they really THAT bad? Is the current metashift completely invalidating all drain archetypes?

NINJA-EDIT:
@ Harlequin:

Yeah, I'm currently running something similiar to that for my weekly casual vintage/legacy tournament. You can find the decklist here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33039.0

I agree that it's very fun to play, though I'm now looking for something a bit more skill-intensive.

[Harlequin]

I starting playing competative vintage back in Mirodin block.  I think artifact based decks are alot of fun.  They may not be as competative as CS - but with 4 defense grids + answers to welder (chalice@1, pithing needle, etc) - you should have no problem makeing these type of decks work.  I really like Metalworker-staff.  Just make sure you always have maindeck answers to Null Rod.  

Also make sure to board in Eon Hub against fish, oath, and ichorid (fish will have kataki, energy flux, and possibly serenity).

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Tolarian Acad
1 Stripmine
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Grim monolith
-22-
4 Metalworker
3 Crucible of Worlds
-7-
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Enligtened Tutor
4 Thirst for Knowledge/Thoughtcast
2 Skeletal Scrying
-10-
4 Juggernaught
1 Triskelavus
1 Triskellion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Karn, Silver Golem
-9-

3 Staff of Domination
2 Shattering Spree
4 Sphere of Resistance/Defense Grid
4 Chalice of the Void
====================================

4 Underground sea
5 blue fetchlands
1 Tolarian Acad
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Valut of Wispers
3 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
4 Metalworker
1 Mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
-26-
1 Tinker
1 Demonic tutor
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Echoing Truth
-30-
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Cranial Plating
3 Frogmite
2 Lodestone Myr
2 Myr Enforcer

4 Defense Grid
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle

[UR]

Well if you do save up to buy some (semi-)power I'd suggest contacting Rudy Meijer. He has pretty much everything available most of the time and his prices are the lowest in North-Western Europe. This means you'll save at least a few hundred bucks on a full set (or, with the current conversion rate, you could probably order from the States and pay pretty much the same thing).

As for a low-powered deck I'd suggest Fish but RG has had some reasonable succes in the past and maybe with the new Magus of the Moon it could become quite good. At least it isn't very expensive to get and you've probably got all the cards already because you are playing Legacy.

I understand that the meta is shifting and drains will become worse than they were, but are they really THAT bad? Is the current metashift completely invalidating all drain archetypes?

Not according to my 'recent' showings with my Mono-U Masknought build. T4 in Eindhoven and T4 in Utrecht.

[Pave]

- How important is Tinker->DSC here? I feel ETW would be better, though without moxen, getting an early stormcount up can be rather difficult.
- If I'd be playing against lot's of CS, Stax and Fish, would a maindeck Fire/Ice cut it? Obviously it sounds ok, but I was wondering if anybody had tested this and what their results where.

Tinker-Collosus is bad against Slaver.  (You might even try Thrashing Wumpus against your friend.)  Extirpate is good.

Fire/Ice is fine but if you want to storm for EtW (or Tendrils) then Lava Dart is better.  You can also Gifts for it and provided you have a Volcanic be guaranteed to kill a Welder or Confident.

[Methuselahn]

Why wouldn't you buy drains?

I understand that the meta is shifting and drains will become worse than they were, but are they really THAT bad? Is the current metashift completely invalidating all drain archetypes?

The best reason to not buy Mana Drain is because you play in Sanctioned events and you don't have the required power that is necessary for building a good Mana Drain deck, if there even is a good Mana Drain deck.

[hauntedechos]

Hey guys,

Nonproxy tournaments, w/o power = Fish and Oath and Ichorid.  You don't like any of these, so at that point you might as well build non-powered versions of whatever deck you DO like and sub in whatever kind of accelerants you can find.  You're going to have to resign yourself to the fact that you're more than likely not going to make T8 w/it.  But as stated above, the game should be about fun first and any win you pull off is going to feel that muc greater because of the fact your playing unpowered.

You can always try an unpowered Slaver list like your friend is doing.  You could try an unpowered DrySlaver list, although Gifts is 1 more to cast than Thirst is, it has shown that the piles you select are definatly going to get you a combonation of cards that should let you pull off a slave.  Add to the fact that Welder actually allows you to cheat at the fact you don't have power.

A starting point could be: 15 lands

x4Welder
x4Thirst
x4Brainstorm
x2Slaver

x1Pentavus
x1Dsc

x1Entomb
x1Buried Alive
x1Demonic T
x2Repeal
x1Merchant Scroll
x1Tinker
x2Sensi's Divining top

x4FoW
x4Daze (Drains if your bent on getting them, would probly be better)

x4Chalice

x4DarkRit
x1Mana Vault
x1Mana Crypt (I belive you said you have one)
x1Sol Ring
x1Lotus Petal
x1MoxDiamond
x1ChromeMox

It's pretty Jank, but like I said that's the unpowered truth of these sorts of decks.  It's also a starting point and more can be added/changed.  I'm doing my best to help you get where you want to be with what you want to start with.  If someone can go over this and tweak it a little, maybe we can all band together and get this guy to the best he can hope to be at with what he's working with.
Lotus, would definatly be the best piece of power to buy if you are driven for acceleration.  Ancestral is the best piece of power for you if you are really feeling the draw aspect of it all.

Flame on!

cheers
Mike

[mox apricot]

I’d say there is a little more to oath than playing/ digging up the enchantment and countering stuff. For starters there are a lot of different oath builds. And people come up with some crazy ways to dig up an oath. There are a number of funny things you can do with loam and intuition, misdirection. I’d say ever playable deck is simple minded in its goal. Get to tinker, build up storm count and find tendrils, disrupt and beat. When it comes to execution of these plans, which is where things get involved and complex.
When I built my oath, aside from power it ended up costing less then the fish builds I had. You need only around 5 duals, three of which don’t see much pay, and some cheapo orchards. Plus with out power you have space for more disruption and utility, increasing skill level. You seem to be more of a tyrant oath guy. Oath is definitely I reasonable choice
 I wouldn’t attempt an un-powered CS. the welder won’t be much good to you and the thirsts aren’t either.

I’d recommend Urbana fish. Running the mox monkey always gets me happy. Having something that’s $0.25 destroy something 1000 times its value is always a good time.

Sui black is also making a comeback. I’d board plague for the fish. The wastes can usually take card of the work shop advantage, and you can run 4x dark ritual, which to you means “pay  and get black lotus”.