u/w fish deck (different idea)

[gamecastle]

First I wanted to thank everyone for reading my post. I know there is a U/W fish post on the open forum but I felt like this really needed to be under the improvement forum. This deck is a little different than most fish builds and needs a lot of tuning so I really didn’t feel like it belonged on the serious tournament forum. I also don’t think that this is the most powerful version of fish but rather I just really wanted to make a U/W deck that was fun to play. I would like to keep the deck list U/W. Here is the list.

4x Aven mindcenser
4x meddling mage
4x voidmage prodigy
4x children of kolios
3x ninja of the deep hours
3x in the eye of chaos
3x aether vial
3x sensei’s divining top
3x counter balance
3x crucible of worlds
3x swords to plowshares
1x time walk
1x ancestral recall
1x black lotus
1x mox sapphire
1x mox pearl
1x sol ring
4x ancient tomb
4x tundra
4x flooded strand
1x island
1x plains
1x stripmine
2x waste land

A couple things about the deck first off I haven’t play tested a lot with it (just a few games against MDgifts ) but here are the things I like and dislike. First off I love in the eye and the aven, ancient tomb has also been good. The jury is still out on counter balance (I did win one game off it, don’t think I ever lost a game because of it), but the top is nice. The things I don’t like about the deck is the disruption is a little slow most of the time you don’t get a piece online until turn 2 or 3 this is generally due to the lack of uu or uw on turn 1. There also isn’t a reliable card drawer, but if I have top online I don’t suffer too much. Let me know your thoughts on improving the list. My meta is mostly stax variants, long and various rogue decks.  I didnt include a side board but would like to hear ideas on it. Thanks again for your time.

[madmanmike25]

No Force of Will?  This should be in the deck before Counterbalance.  In the Eye of Chaos is not a valid reason to omit Force.  If you are running Aether Vial over Null Rod, try adding Chalice of the Void.

If you play against that much Stax, try a combination of Merchant Scrolls and Hurkyl's Recall and/or Rebuild in the main deck.

Is Crucible worth it?  You have no way to tutor for Stripmine.

Your SB should include some Graveyard hate.  Maybe some Orim's Chant or Stifle/Trickbind as well.  Kataki or Energy Flux is good against Stax as well.

It is kind of difficult to offer suggestions for a 'fun' deck.  I do not know if you are in an environment with a lot of the Power Nine cards or not.  But do look at the other U/W thread, you will get the benefits of many hours of testing that others have done to tweak the deck.  Not saying you can't be original, but you do want to win, right?

Good Luck.

[Moxlotus]

Immediately add force of will.  Try cutting the Balances and, if you like Tops, you don't need more than 2.  Also do you need 3 crucibles? 

How are the Voidmages doing for you?  UU kinda sucks to get it looks like.

How is Ninja with only 4 1 drops and not too many easily castable 2 drops?

[gamecastle]

Madmanmike 25

I really wanted forces but was worried about in the eye (which I am thinking of upping to 4). Admittedly I haven’t tested with forces yet but I do miss them in the first 1-2 turns.

I don’t think crucible is worth it I put it in there to counter opposing crucible strips (which are popular), but haven’t seen much good come from it yet.

My meta is very liberal with proxies so everyone has access to power in their decks.

Moxlotus

I would not cry over cutting the counter balance, they were more of an experiment anyway. I have pretty much decided crucible is gone.

Voidmage was added because I wanted counter ability that wasn’t hurt by in the eye (same as counter balance) it is hard to hard cast him and have the mana to use him in the first three turns so I am not thrilled with him. My intention is to use vial to shoot him in instant speed to counter for uu.

I don’t really have any problems casting ninja because the first few turns of the game I am setting up disruption and it after I am stable I send in the ninja to fill me back up. Plus if I add forces he pitches to them.

I actually like the top. I wouldn’t mind cutting to two but this deck seriously lacks draw power and top smoothes that out. (I usually play MDgifts so maybe the deck’s draw is not too bad for fish and I just feel that way because of gifts power?)

I am willing to test force of will. I guess the things I need help the most on is counters and draw/search that gets around in the eye. What I want to preserve in the deck is using ancient tomb to power out aven and in the eye.

thanks
matthew

ps do you think it would be worth it to cut the two wastes and the strip for more color mana?

[madmanmike25]

I am willing to test force of will.

That's just awesome, and I mean that in a good way and with no sarcasm.  Do run 4 of them, you will be pleased.  This is especially true since you say you are in a meta with proxies.   FoW is the best counterspell in Vintage, I am not alone in that opinion.  Being able to counter critical spells BEFORE you even get to put a land in play or draw a card is good stuff.

ps do you think it would be worth it to cut the two wastes and the strip for more color mana?

NEVER cut Stripmine in this type of deck.  The Wasteland count is a matter of preference though.  There isn't any real reason to only run 1 though, usually you see a 3-4 count of Wastelands.  Three colors and 5 Strip effects can be taxing on your own manabase.  Do you see Fetchlands often?

Oh, and concerning your Crucible issue for protecting your lands:  Try Sacred Ground in the SB.  Great vs. Stax btw.

Standstill has worked well with Aether Vials in the past for draw.  Works with Ninja's as well.

[gamecastle]

Great idea with the standstill (can’t believe I didn’t think of that considering how much I like that card) should I increase the vial count from 3 to 4 to ensure having 1 in my opening hand?

Also not sure what you mean when you ask do I see fetchlands a lot. I generally find one of mine within the first 3 turns. If you are asking does the meta contain a lot of fetchlands  I would have to say yes. Most of the decks where I play don’t run many basics (some run none at all).

Good advice on sacred ground other side board. Other cards I’m considering are a mix of kataki and energy flux (some of each to get around chalice and removal), And tinker / colossus. There is a wide gap between the developed decks and a good number of  T2 and extended decks with moxes thrown in. tinker colossus just seems the best way to handle those for only two side board slots (possible more if I add a tutor or two to make sure I get the tinker)

As always thanks for the help.

[Harlequin]

Sacred Ground is better answer than Crucible I think.  It really hoses Stax (because you can sac your lands to smokestack and get them back).  Also it immunizes waste and strip. 

Force of Will can be run along side ItEoC, its just too good not to run it.  Think of it this way, when you go to cast Eye - if they have force in hand they -will- force it.  If so you'll need a force backer to make sure it resolves.  Sure FoW is dead after you resolve ItEoC but .... at that point you're winning ^_^

[madmanmike25]

Great idea with the standstill (can’t believe I didn’t think of that considering how much I like that card) should I increase the vial count from 3 to 4 to ensure having 1 in my opening hand?

Try 4 at first, if it doesn't work for you, cut one.

Also not sure what you mean when you ask do I see fetchlands a lot. I generally find one of mine within the first 3 turns. If you are asking does the meta contain a lot of fetchlands  I would have to say yes. Most of the decks where I play don’t run many basics (some run none at all).

I asked about fetchlands in regards to your Wasteland count.  Since you say that many decks do not run basics then 4 Wastelands is great.  Fetchlands do slow your Wastes down a bit though.

Good advice on sacred ground other side board. Other cards I’m considering are a mix of kataki and energy flux (some of each to get around chalice and removal), And tinker / colossus. There is a wide gap between the developed decks and a good number of  T2 and extended decks with moxes thrown in. tinker colossus just seems the best way to handle those for only two side board slots (possible more if I add a tutor or two to make sure I get the tinker)

I can't really recommend Tinker ->Colossus without Brainstorms.  Brainstorm in Fish is a matter of preference.  It is not really card draw, only manipulation.  I think Tops are ok... just not optimal.

*Usually* E. Flux means game against Stax.  Kataki is more of a nuissance.  Try Serenity?

[hauntedechos]

Yay, More Fish talk!

I'm not terribly good with building "fun" decks, I guess there is too much "Spike" in my Magic needs.  However, it seems the issues being addressed are some basic Fish principals.  Always remember Fish wants as many "free" spells as it can get it's hands on, while remaining usefull.  This is because Fish wants to tap down to bring in the clock or business spells (if Fish can be considered to have any he he he).

x4Force of Will - when your on the draw, or play it's your best friend..tap down and still have a hard counter backup.

Aether Vial = Chalice of the Void - While the benifits of uncounterable beaters is great, you still need something quick to deal with the Moxen.  I think that if you don't run Null Rods, then E.Flux is the addition you need to deal with Stax.  Also, I agree that Standstill is almost an auto include when useing the AetherVial/Chalice configuration.  Keep in mind, however that beyond a fixer, Brainstorm is also used in responce to many bombs, in hopes of drawing into a counter to respond with.  It's also used to protect a key spell (not that Fish has a lot of them) by hiding it on top of the library when Duressed or something.

Null Rod and Kataki are a great combo that I use to deal with Stax, and moxen/artifacts in general.  Kataki on it's own forces moxen to tap down to themselves, and mana to be paid for the rest of them.  Adding Null Rod pretty much forces them to scoop up the artifacts as they won't have the mana to pay for it all and they can't tap the moxen for their own costs.

Wastelands - I like 3 and 1 strip personaly, because as it was mentioned 4 is too taking on the manabase ( I play U/Wb ) even for 2 colours.  You've stated that you are in an environment where duals are all over the place, that makes Wastes too good not to use.  Beyond that, mana denial is a staple Fish theme, it's disruption is what gives Fish a chance to set up a tempo advantage that you NEED to keep up on in order to win through your attack step.

Before I clog up this thread with more of my non "fun" thoughts, I'll just say that U/W Fish is a deck that can be fun in a casual manner as well as cometetive.  But hey, no one likes my ideas anyways lol, so don't listen to me.

Cheers and happy Fishing
you can PM me if you feel like it.
P.S. There is a HUGE difference in "rogue" decks and "bad" decks, unfortunatly some people don't understand that.  My question is, are these rogue decks that are beating decks, or are they just random decks that are getting thier heads kicked in ?

[gamecastle]

Thanks to everyone who has given ideas so far. I probably won’t post on this thread until at least Monday, so I will have time to test all the changes. I want to have a revised decklist  and useful content to post.