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Author Topic: Call For Rules Questions  (Read 1987 times)
NicholasAtSCG
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« on: May 18, 2007, 04:26:26 pm »

Here at SCG, we're working on compiling a new version of the Vintage FAQ for our Tournament Policy document. The purpose of this FAQ is to ensure that our staff has the correct answers to many of the complex rules interactions that occur at our Vintage tournaments. At this time, I'd like to ask the Vintage community to present any common questions, card interactions, or game situations that you all feel should be commonly understood by the judge staff at a Vintage event. Please do not include the answers to these questions; that's what I'm here for.

I look forward to hearing from you all.

-- Nicholas
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Nicholas Sabin
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2007, 07:00:55 pm »

Here are some questions that come up in Vintage events

All interactions involving any combination of morph creatures, Chalice of the Void and Mana Drain.

Can you stifle/trickbind Mana Drain's mana ability?

Oath and an untapped Forbidden Orchard during the upkeep with both players have equal number of creatures--is it possible to Oath?

In play you have an active Goblin Welder and a Planar Void.  Can you discard an artifact and use the Welder's ability?  Will this work with Leyline of the Void?

How does Bazaar of Baghdad and Chains of Mephistopheles work together?  How does Uba mask and Chains work together?

Can things with no mana cost (like some of the suspend spells) be played off Mind's Desire?

How Worldgorger Dragon, Animate Dead, and Ankh of Mishra work together.  How Necromancy played EOT works into this situation.

How Shattering Spree works with trinisphere.  How it works with Chalice of the Void at 1.  How it works with Sphere of Resistance.

I activate Mindslaver on my opponent.  I am taking his turn and he has a cunning Wish.  What can I look at?  Do I have to find something?  What if it was Death Wish instead.

How Wishes and Memory Jar work together.

What happens when there are multiple Memory Jar hands set aside.

How does ending a turn on a Jar hand and Necropotence work together.

How does ending the turn on a Jar and Yawgmoth's Will work together?  (and lol if it ends somehow with those spells cast this turn!)

Can Ninjitsu be Stifled?  Can Dredge?

My opponent has a Bridge from Below in his grave.  He attacks me with Ichorid.  I block with Savannah Lions.  Will he get a 2/2 zombie?

Can Mishra's factory pump an Assembly Worker the turn factory was played?

Do counters from, say Arcbound Ravager that has died, stay on Blinkmoth Nexus after the turn has ended?

All of these situations when I have activated a Mindslaver and I am now taking my opponent's turn:
Can I fail to find a card with Cunning Wish?
With Death Wish?
With Polluted Delta?
With Demonic Tutor?
With Gifts Ungiven?  After all, the deck could be all Relentless Rats
With mystical tutor?

What if the above conditions were still the same, but an Aven Mindcensor was in play?

My opponent casts Flash and puts Academy Rector into play.  It dies.  Can Tormod's Crypt stop the Rector from searching for an enchantment?

I sacrifice Academy Rector to pay the flashback on Cabal Therapy.  I name a card with Therapy.  Can I then search for an enchantment?

I am attacking with 2 creatures.  I have 4 blue mana open.  I ninjitsu a Ninja of the Deep hours into play.  My opponent Chain of Vapors it.  Can I ninjitsu it into play for the other creature?  If my opponent took damage from Ninja of the Deep hours or Dimir Cutpurse, and with their abilities on the stack Chain of Vapors them, will their abilities happen?

If I flip Fire/Ice with Dark Confidant, how much damage will I take?
Can Fire of Fire/Ice be countered by Spell Snare?  What about Pyroblast?  What about Hydroblast?

Can you Animate Dead an Akroma?

How does each 2 card combination of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth; Back to Basics, and Blood Moon work together?

I'll probably think of more later.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 07:05:21 pm by Moxlotus » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2007, 12:19:04 am »

What happens when you play Yawgmoth's Will & then discard Darksteel Colossus or any other combination of replacement effects. Does it change depending on who controls the source of the replacement effect.

There are 6 cards in the graveyard and Cabal Ritual is cast, does it have threshold? Now I cast Yawgmoth's Will and replay it from the graveyard (it was the seventh card), does it have threshold?

Is the paying of 2 life from Vampiric Tutor a cost or does it happen on resolution? For Imperial Seal?

Can you successfully cast Tinker by sacrificing your own Chalice set at x=3?

Timing/choosing questions related to Sundering Titan. When the comes into play trigger goes on the stack do you choose the lands at that time or when it resolves? Do you have to choose a land of each type? Can you choose a single land as multiple types (e.g. an Underground Sea as Island and Swamp)? If Titan comes into play and my opponent Chain of Vapors it, will I be able to target the same lands with both the come into play and leaves play triggers?

If I activate a Mishra's factory and my oppenent uses a Vedalken Shakles to steal it, will they get to keep it after it stops being a creature? What if they use Old Man of the Sea? Seasing?

My opponent has a mana crypt in play and I activate mindslaver targeting them. When I take their turn who gets to flip the coin?
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« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2007, 03:15:43 pm »

It's worth including the changes to things like Wishes that choose a card in a hidden zone; they're generally now "may choose" or "may put".


Are you going to do something similar for Legacy?
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« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2007, 08:28:05 pm »

When you dredge for a draw replacement, can you arrange the cards dredged in any order?
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NicholasAtSCG
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« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2007, 11:02:55 am »

It's worth including the changes to things like Wishes that choose a card in a hidden zone; they're generally now "may choose" or "may put".


Are you going to do something similar for Legacy?

If there would be enough interest in it, I'd be glad to. Vintage was of particular note to me due to the fact that many of the relevant cards in the format have significant changes in their text, whereas Legacy doesn't seem to have this problem. Then again, I play only EDH, so please correct me if I'm mistaken. Smile
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Nicholas Sabin
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« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2007, 11:13:19 am »

Here is an excerpt I published a while ago mentioning a few rules questions (and consequently, the answers, even though you asked not to have them).  I do not know if they have already been mentioned.

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In your first Vintage tournament, there are a few rules situations that you are likely to encounter on a regular basis that you should be aware of and know how to handle. While there are plenty that I could have included here, I am just including the most important and most common ones. You ought to read what each card does by clicking on its name before reading the explanations.

Mana Drain is something you will almost certainly see. The trick here has to do with “next main phase.” If a player Mana Drains something during his first main phase or during his combat phase, then he will get the extra mana during his second main phase of the same turn. If he Mana Drains any other time, then he will get the mana at the beginning of his next first main phase. This is important to be aware of, as players sometimes forget what phase they are on and then make play errors or rules errors as a result. Just be aware of what the text of Mana Drain implies about its functionality. Additionally, the proper time to Stifle Mana Drain is at the beginning of the phase the mana would be added, not after Mana Drain resolves.

Mana Crypt is a card you may or may not see. Just remember to actually go through with the coin flip (commonly a die roll of even or odds) when Mana Crypt’s controller’s upkeep comes. Many a Crypt flip has been forgotten over the years. It is also probably best that one player call and one player roll (while the rules say that the opponent of Mana Crypt’s controller is supposed to roll while the controller calls, nobody is going to scream “judge” if you do it another way). Also the rules have recently changed to allow a player to put an object of some sort (a glass stone or a die) on top of his deck as a reminder for upkeep effects. Feel free to do this if it will help you remember your own Mana Crypt rolls (placing an object on your opponent’s deck might not go over so well).

Tangle Wire and Smokestack are two cards you might see on tournament day, although Stax is an out-of-favor archetype as of the time of this writing. The importance here has to do with how the triggers are stacked. The long and the short of it is that the controller of these two permanents is able to fix the stack such that he abuses the cards as extensively as possible. During his turn, he can make the stack (from top to bottom): Tangle Wire remove a counter, Tangle Wire tap permanents, Smokestack sacrifice permanents, Smokestack add a counter. So, he gets to sacrifice fewer tapped cards and doesn’t suffer the wrath of the new soot counter. During his opponent’s turn, he can make the stack (from top to bottom): Smokestack sacrifice a permanent, Tangle Wire tap permanents. His opponent gets the raw deal both ways. Of note, possibly, is that some people will try to sort of fudge the situation when someone says “I’ll put X on the stack first and Y on second” when he really means “I want X to resolve first and Y to resolve second.” While you might be able to argue this with the “judge,” it is probably best to just let the optimal play stand, as you know what he meant. If you want to be a rules lawyer though, be my guest.


When Worldgorger Dragon comes into play,
destroy target judge’s day. It can’t be regenerated.Worldgorger Dragon combo is a deck you might run into. Worldgorger Dragon combos with a number of cards, but Animate Dead is a classic choice. With Worldgorger Dragon in the graveyard and a land in play, a player plays Animate Dead. The Dragon comes into play and its comes into play ability triggers. When the trigger resolves, it will remove Animate Dead and the land from the game. Animate Dead’s leaves play trigger triggers and destroys the Dragon. The Dragon leaves play, causing its leaves play trigger to trigger, bringing the land and the Animate Dead back. Animate Dead, in turn, gets Dragon back in play and so on. In this way, a player can generate an indefinitely large amount of mana by just tapping the land every time it comes into play. The player then wins in some way with this large amount of mana, possibly Stroke of Geniusing his opponent to death. So, if you want to disrupt this combo, you need to counter the Dragon’s leaves play trigger. That way, you opponent will have no permanents because they will stay removed.

The Storm mechanic, most commonly found on Tendrils of Agony in Vintage, is something you need to have a firm grasp of. The rules themselves on their face are not that complicated:

502.30. Storm

502.30a Storm is a triggered ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. “Storm” means “When you play this spell, put a copy of it onto the stack for each other spell that was played before it this turn. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for any number of the copies.”

502.30b If a spell has multiple instances of storm, each triggers separately. 

There are a few things to note. First, it counts all spells played thus far, including the opponent’s spells. Second, Storm only looks for spells played not just spells put on the stack. So, a Storm spell won’t see the copies of other Storm spells in determining its Storm count. Third, countering the original will not stop the copies. You need to Stifle, Trickbind, or somehow otherwise deal with the triggered ability instead. If you have further questions about Storm, I suggest that you ask in the rulings forum.

A card you are unlikely to see, but need to be aware of how to handle is Chains of Mephistopheles. Rather than try to explain it here, however, I would just like to point you to this article on MagicTheGathering.com which gives an extensive explanation of how the card works. It is far more complete than any explanation I could offer here.

-----------------------

Finally, be aware of the errata of your cards (meaning, the current Oracle text), so that you are not surprised come tournament day. This can potentially save a lot of headaches down the road, especially if your combo turns out to not actually be a combo.
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