[Premium Article] Eternal Potpouri - Doomsday

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14191.html

Doomsday is a GREAT deck right now, in my honest opinion.   It might actually be impossible to play however. 

Here is my new list:

Meandeck Doomsday, Post Future Sight
3 Island
1 Swamp
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
 
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
 
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
 
4 Doomsday
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
 
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mystical Tutor
 
4 Street Wraith
1 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
 
3 Duress
3 Unmask
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Research/Development
You have a very good Ichorid match and are now fast enough to beat any combo and control decks.   Look how highly interact the deck is as well.   

[jakjakman]

I'm curious as to the general strategy of the deck.  As you indicate, it is very interactive--Force of Will, PoN, Duress, and Unmask.  Therefore, do you focus these cards on disrupting your opponent's game play to buy time to build your combo, or is the deck fast enough that you can use the disruption strictly for protecting your Doomsday pile and execution?  In testing the deck, on average what turn do you cast Doomsday?

[Smmenen]

I'm curious as to the general strategy of the deck.  As you indicate, it is very interactive--Force of Will, PoN, Duress, and Unmask.  Therefore, do you focus these cards on disrupting your opponent's game play to buy time to build your combo, or is the deck fast enough that you can use the disruption strictly for protecting your Doomsday pile and execution?  In testing the deck, on average what turn do you cast Doomsday?

Turn Two is the average turn you play Dday.  Probably something like turn 2.3. 

[runeblayde]

I do not have a Starcity premium account, so I am not able to read the article, but I am very interested in how this deck plays out and the new innovations that power this deck as opposed to the last doomsday archetype with the beacon of destruction pile.

[ErkBek]

I do not have a Starcity premium account, so I am not able to read the article, but I am very interested in how this deck plays out and the new innovations that power this deck as opposed to the last doomsday archetype with the beacon of destruction pile.

Here is the key card.

1 Research/Development

Beacon sucked, but worked. Now doomsday stacks that use desire can flip this card instead. It seems like a great addition, plus Steve loves that card.

[mongrel12]

Doesn't Research/Development just make the deck really vulnerable to leyline?

[Smmenen]

If your opponent has Leyline out and you set up the Research Kill, they have just helped you out.  You can put Desire back into your deck and another Research and really go nuts.

Leyline does nothing against R and D.   

Note that Beacon kill is not stopped by it either. 

[acidfreak]

Do you think this deck is playable without
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Imperial Seal
?

If have almost all the cards except the power, would be nice change of deck for me. (+ Doomsday sounds so cool when you cast it  ). Maybe two more cabal rituals? Or is the kill entirely dependant on Blotus?

[Tobi]

Doomsday is a GREAT deck right now, in my honest opinion.   It might actually be impossible to play however. 

Why do you think it is impossible to play? Because of the difficult Doomsday piles?

[Scyther]

Doomsday is a GREAT deck right now, in my honest opinion.   It might actually be impossible to play however. 

Why do you think it is impossible to play? Because of the difficult Doomsday piles?

I'm also interseted in the answer of this question and also why do you think this is in some circumstances/ Metas superior to Combodecks like Gifts or Long. Why should I take this one instesd of ..say.. Gifts?

[Duncan]

Wat do you suggest as a sideboard? Except for the Research//Development.

[spindrift]

What is the typical pile of 5 for doomsday?

Are their other options for a kill with this deck?

[Scyther]

What is the typical pile of 5 for doomsday?

Are their other options for a kill with this deck?

I personally would say:

1) Top of deck
Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
Dark Ritual/ LED
Mind's Desire
Research
Bottom of deck

Play Anc,Blotus,Rit, then after the first copy of Desire respond with Research and search for Will, Tendrils, FoW + stuff like Ritual/LED 2nd Research// Development etc. Then the other copys of Desire play Will, Tendrils and stuff for free.

Seems as quick as it is dirty. ^^

2) You can go for "normal" Stormcombo stuff like: Rit ->Blotus ->Demonic Tutor ->Will... or other Storm enabler stuff like Gush or Chain ov Vapor.


I'm also Interested in Sideboard stuff. With the 2 Researches (1 in SB) you can go for a lot of tricks and solutions. But theese are only known by Smmenen at the moment I think. ^^

[Moxlotus]

Do you think this deck is playable without
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Imperial Seal
?

If have almost all the cards except the power, would be nice change of deck for me. (+ Doomsday sounds so cool when you cast it  ). Maybe two more cabal rituals? Or is the kill entirely dependant on Blotus?

The deck absolutely requires Lotus and Ancestral.  More than likely it requires the moxen too.  I seen/played enough to knowabout Seal

[runeblayde]

I figured that the research//development was the win condition, but I was wondering what versatility of wins and protection does the sideboard offer?  Another tendrils  or 2?

[diopter]

Man R&D is so busted.
I don't have premium so I don't know if Steve mentions this specific pile (he must have mentioned the fact that R&D is so much better than Beacon ever was) but off the top of my head you can win easily with R&D in hand by going:

Ancestral
Lotus
LED
Street Wraith
Yawg Will

Beacon never did that.

Great tech Steve!

[Tobi]

As far as my experiences from a few initial golfishes are, you definitely need a second Tendrils in your sideboard. I faced a situation where I could only manage to Mind's Desire for 3. Revealing R/D as the last card, playing it for free and "shuffling" 2 Tendrils into your library was the only way to win that one.

[goobafish]

So far I am really loving this deck. Can you give us a few example Doomsday piles and Research Piles?

[Smmenen]

As I said, i will be writing more about this deck in the future.

If you are interested in reading more about Doomsday puzzles and understanding the mechanics behind the deck, check out this article:

Rehearsing the Doomsday Scenarios: Learning How to Build Optimal Doomsday Piles
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9361.html

This article provides an overview to eighteen different possible Vintage scenarios in which you have to construct Doomsday Piles. Each stack is different depending on the number of cards in your hand, the mana available, and the resistance you are facing. This article is considered by many to be their favorite article that I've written. I still get email about it to this day.

The Doomsday Device: The Coolest Win Condition in Magic
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/8410.html

This article is a StarCityGames.com tournament report where I faced some of the best Vintage players around. It will give you a taste of how the deck operates under tournament conditions.

[Malhavoc]

Smmenen, I'm sure Doomsday gains a lot from a card like Street Wraith, often enabling you to combo out as soon as you cast Doomsday, without waiting a turn. This job was previously done by the Spheres, which used to cost you 1 in the process, and had the bad habit of being useless against null rod. However I'm wondering if you don't suffer the lack of their mana-fixing ability: with the old Doomsday it was quite possible to do things like:

Turn1: land, mox, sphere, duress/unmask
Turn2: land, filter mox mana into black through sphere, doomsday

Without Sphere, getting BBB seems to be a little more problematic, even with 6 rituals, also due to the very blue mana base.

Even if I have to say that I've not tested it yet and I've got no access to SSG premium to look at all the details you've written, another doubt that strikes me looking at the list is that the deck seems a bit more dependent on doomsday to win. In the old doomsday it was not uncommon to be able to get out a lethal tendril in a more TPS-like way. But here it seems less easy without draw7 and the spheres you used to be able to replay from the grave under yawgmoth.

[Scyther]

Although it is now possible to win more often in the same turn you cast the D-Day I see a problem in having Research//Development as the "main win condition". What I mean is: If the RD is RFG and you have to wait till the next turn, I see no possibility to win. Please teach me that I'm wrong.

Or other example: Even if you have Gush/Wraith in hand but no mana open it is impossible to win on the same turn.
So the deck swallows a lot of mana or had to wait a turn longer leave the oppenent with one more chance to let you fizzle...

[mongrel12]

You just win with a tendrils stack if you remove research/development.

[Dr. Teeth]

I have a question for you, Steve.

In your articles, the most piles you make do include mind's desire. Even the situation with desire in hand (in your rehearsing the doomsday scenario article) featured playing mind's desire. But how do you pile with a meddling mage naming desire out?

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Looks quite interesting and is built to play similar to flash is (play a single lethal threat), but with fewer dead cards. It's also slower than Flash, though and has to say go/needs more cards (my "combo" parallel to flash+hulk is Ritual+Doomsday here). The massive discard should be good against Flash/other PoN combo.

As far as my experiences from a few initial golfishes are, you definitely need a second Tendrils in your sideboard. I faced a situation where I could only manage to Mind's Desire for 3. Revealing R/D as the last card, playing it for free and "shuffling" 2 Tendrils into your library was the only way to win that one.

Considering that after Desire, you probably have Lotus/Ritual in your Graveyard (or maybe another way to get BB2), putting Will+Tendrils into your Library wins, too.
And if you actually have an empty GY, a single extra-mana is enought to put the SB R/D and Ancestral into your Library. You reveal R/D and Ancest, R/D for Will, Lotus, Tendrils and draw them with Ancest.

I like the deck. You can have infinite-storm and play infinite Tendrils with the SB R/D btw, no more loosing to Life.dec It's not even hard, just hope the judge accepts it as a "loop".

[Spacebalzz]

As far as my experiences from a few initial golfishes are, you definitely need a second Tendrils in your sideboard. I faced a situation where I could only manage to Mind's Desire for 3. Revealing R/D as the last card, playing it for free and "shuffling" 2 Tendrils into your library was the only way to win that one.

Tobi, you don't need a second tendrils in your SB because the one in your deck gets removed from the game and is thus fetchable with  R&D.  Therefore, even with only one Tendrils in your SB, you can still shuffle 2 back into your library with R&D.  So even with a storm count of 2 on Desire (this means 3 desire "spells"), you still win via --  Spell + Spell + Desire + R&D + Tendrils + Tendrils.  Target opponent loses 10 life, then 12 life.

Steve, wild deck dude.

-Matt

Edit:  Sorry, I wasn't paying attention and Mon slipped a post in addressing said quote 20 minutes before me, but I think the point still stands.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

I think Tobi actually meant "a second" as in "a second in addition to the MD one". Either way, I think it is superflous, as you probably won't need it even with Storm =3.
/edit: Ok, now you edited before I posted, lol.

Btw, is there a way to win turn 1 with

Mystical, Brainstorm, 2x Doomsday, Unmask, Island, Lotus
?

It seems like there should, but I didn't find any way so far. With Timetwister it'd be easy...

[Phantom Ogre]

Btw, is there a way to win turn 1 with

Mystical, Brainstorm, 2x Doomsday, Unmask, Island, Lotus
?

It seems like there should, but I didn't find any way so far. With Timetwister it'd be easy...

I couldn't think of any that were able to lead off with Unmask and still go off in the same turn, but, assuming the opponent doesn't do anything to disrupt the combo, the following should work:

Island
1. Black Lotus
2. Doomsday

Stack:

Yawgmoth’s Will
Black Lotus
LED
Ancestral Recall
Tendrils of Agony

3. Brainstorm (return 2 x Mystical Tutor/Doomsday/Unmask)
4. Black Lotus
5. LED
6. Yawgmoth’s Will (popping LED for UUU in response)
7. Black Lotus
8. LED
9. Brainstorm (return 2 x Mystical Tutor/Doomsday/Unmask)
10. Ancestral Recall
11. Unmask (pitching Doomsday)
12. Tendrils of Agony (24 life)

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Btw, is there a way to win turn 1 with

Mystical, Brainstorm, 2x Doomsday, Unmask, Island, Lotus
?

It seems like there should, but I didn't find any way so far. With Timetwister it'd be easy...

I couldn't think of any that were able to lead off with Unmask and still go off in the same turn, but, assuming the opponent doesn't do anything to disrupt the combo, the following should work:

Island
1. Black Lotus
2. Doomsday

Stack:

Yawgmoth’s Will
Black Lotus
LED
Ancestral Recall
Tendrils of Agony

3. Brainstorm (return 2 x Mystical Tutor/Doomsday/Unmask)
4. Black Lotus
5. LED
6. Yawgmoth’s Will (popping LED for UUU in response)
7. Black Lotus
8. LED
9. Brainstorm (return 2 x Mystical Tutor/Doomsday/Unmask)
10. Ancestral Recall
11. Unmask (pitching Doomsday)
12. Tendrils of Agony (24 life)

Thanks for trying I think you'd always want to play the Unmask, though, even if that means no kill before turn 2...

(the easy way with twister is this, btw:

DD:

Ancestral,
Lotus,
Petal,
Twister,
Tendrils

Brainstorm into Lotus, Petal, Ancest, play Petal and Ancest,  keep Lotus and Twister, you have exactly seven cards after Twister, so you'll have your Tendrils + Artifacts in hand to win. Problem with Twister is, if he gets a FoW and counters mana, it's over.

[Spacebalzz]

While rare, the deck is capable of a turn one kill thats quite resilient.  For example:

Opening Hand:
Lotus, LED, Ritual, Doomsday, Duress, Wraith, Island

1. Play Island, Lotus, and LED.
2. Sac Lotus for BBB and then proceed to play Ritual for BBBBB.
3. Play Duress.
4. Play Doomsday leaving B floating.  Your stack should look like this from the top:

Recall
Lotus or Ritual
Duress (or PoN)
Mind's Desire
Tendrils / Research


5. Cycle Wraith and draw Recall.
6. Tap Island and play Recall, saccing LED in response for UUU, and draw Lotus, Duress and Desire.
7. With UUUB play Duress again.
8. Play Lotus and sac for UUU.
9. Play Mind's Desire with 8 copies.
9. Kill with Tendrils or Research for Beacon or whatever.

Fast and resilient.  Confusing though.

Cheers,
-Matt

[Scyther]

You just win with a tendrils stack if you remove research/development.

...
What I meant was:
No cards in hand, 3 lands in play for casting DD. It's obvious one can't win the same turn but for even winning the next turn I see no oportunity if Research is rfg.
Imo you can't generate enough storm to kill with the Tendrils if its not the same turn you cast the DD.